I have a rookie player that's playing PF under me. This is her very first tabletop RPG experience. She plays a Sorcerer. And she likes to play it. Half of the time, namely in the roleplaying encounters. But during battles, she feels that she's very underpowered and can't do much to help.
The Sorc's relevant stats are:
Level: 2nd (enough XP to level up)
Bloodline: Draconic (Red)
Spells: Level 0: Acid Splash, Detect Magic, Read Magic, Prestidigitation; Level 1: Magic Missile, Sleep
Feats: Combat Casting, Scribe Scroll
In your opinion, what could I do, game mechanics wise, to make her feel more adequate in battle? More specifically:
-Would you change her spell selection? What spell would you have her take if she levels up in Sorc?
-Same questions as above for feats.
-If she wants to level up in another class, what would you recommend?
When answering, if possible, please consider what she wants:
-To do more melee(!). I've told her that this is a bad idea if she plays a pure Sorc and she understands this. But still she would not like to multiclass. Can you even make a pure Sorc a melee type?
-Loves fire and dragons. That's why she chose the class :) So no changing the Bloodline.
Mind you, she likes her character and roleplays it extremely well. I just hope that she could enjoy the fighting encouters too...
Has the player even expressed concern over her fighting capabilities?
I know it's alien for some people but many players are perfectly happy being just average in power or even sub-optimal if it suits their play style and role play.
Just want to make sure.
Skip Sleep and give Burning hands or Ray of enbeeblement. THis spell can work for a few levels.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Hmm,
Part of the fun of a sorcerer (to me) is 'twisting' the spells to reflect the bloodline. If she likes Magic Missile, how do the missiles look? I ran an aberrant sorcerer who shot magic missiles that looked like little mouths, (I was thinking of this) that bit out chunks and disappeared. The players freaked out.
Likewise, in 2e I played a tiefling bard. She cast chill touch through a kiss.
Now mechanically, an acid flask is a must. Acid splash doing 1d3+1 isn't much more but it's more damage. Since it's a focus it doesn't go dry.
Colour spray is better in most circumstances than sleep depending on style. If she wants to be an 'up close and personal' combatant, then yeah. Rey has sleep because it fits his motif of 'let me stand way-the-hell-back-here and shoot them' concept.
Half the spells are attack spells.
I would drop at least 1 maybe 2 of them.
Grease or color spray are usually more fun and effective than magic missile.
Illusions can also be fun and more versatile.
If wants to melee maybe shield.
Scibe scroll is not normal for a sorc. Maybe take martial weapon prof in a reach weapon since she wants to melee.
The true strike would guarantee at least a few hits.
What are stats?
Get a different feat than scribe scroll. She has access to all of the spells on her spell list all the time. Choose a feat that lets you do something, like the Intimidate feat chain that lets her use her charisma to debuff enemies. Good RP, fits the dragon theme, and it's something new to do.
If she's creative, I'd recommend Silent Image, as it is so variable.
I second the idea that making a low charge wand available would help here.
I think droppping Acid Spash could be a good idea. Depending on your campaign, replace it with either Disrupt Undead or Daze.
At 1st level, I would only keep one attack spell and chose a defensive or utilitary spell.
Scribe Scrolls is useless for a sorcerer.
Well in all of my campaigns that i have done with new players i let them be really flexible with their characters at first to let them really find their niche. I would allow her to select any spell she wants to cast for the rest of level 2, still limit her casts per day though. Especially with how weak level 1 spells are it can't really hurt. Also like everyone has said, Burning hands is amazing.
You can stretch that with intensify to 10d4 and then boost it with Empower.
Edit: Oh yeah, burning hands is also a good choice and probably more thematic, although its damage is capped quite low even with the bloodline arcana (max 5d4+5).
The thing about blast spells is they are like any other ability, if you give it feat/ability/equipment support they can be much more powerful (and thus viable).
So, most of my suggestions have already been covered...
However, there is one question going largely unaddressed: into what class would I recommend multi?
Argh. Multiclassing a Sorcerer is hard. And it takes so long.
But... given her desire for more combat, what about becoming a Sorcerer/Monk? If her Wisdom modifier is positive, it'll help her AC a bunch, in addition to the nice saving throw bump from the Monk.
Etc., etc.
Maybe a Sorc 5/Monk 5/Dragon Disciple 10? (Wait, not in PFSOP...)
Humph. So maybe Sorc 4/Monk 2/Dragon Disciple 6, then. Or something on that order... I play more Wizards than Sorcerers, so I'm not sure where the best balance lies between Sorcerer and Dragon Disciple, but I remember it stacks pretty well...
And spell selection (kinda common, or garden-variety spell list, it seems).
0: detect magic, disrupt undead, touch of fatigue, message, prestidigitation
1: shield, silent image
Feats... human?
Combat Casting
Spell Focus/Necromancy
Well you have several options.
Dragon Disiple is more melee oriented. Possibly go Crossblooded Orc/Dragon (Red). That should give you the Str boost of Orc and the Dragon Disiple and Giant Size at later levels.
There is also the option of going Emperial Sorc 2/Zen Archer Monk 4/Arcane Archer 10... and finish up with Zen Archer. You would have a decent Base Attack and a Decent Caster level and all the archer goodies. Emperial sorc uses Wisdom as does the Zen Monk so you have one key stat.
If she truely wants to stick to Sorc 20 she will need to speciallize in touch spells if she really wants to melee.
A sorcerer eldritch knight is doable. Heck there is even a way to sorcerer/monk one that is relatively effective. Ephemeral bloodline (wisdom as casting stat) works well with sohei monk (martial weapon prof). IIRC 1 monk/6 sorc will get your there.
A dex build of this could have decently good AC with little invested. I made an NPC that had 18 touch AC.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Re: Illusions, cover vs concealment.
I would say 'concealment' Here's why.
AC is a function of the target. Hiding behind the brick wall effectively adds to your armor class. Hiding in the fog grants another die roll in the equasion (rather than augmenting the already existant die roll.) The guy is aiming at the arrow slit, he can't see effectively if he's hitting the guy behind the wall. (Note, if attacks come from somewhere beside the arrow slit, that's going to definately generate some will saves).
There was a 2e wild mage spell called "There not there" which spelled out cover to AC was for the defender. If the rock existed for the guy hiding behind it, he got cover (if the archer 'disbelieved' the rock, then the arrows just seemed to suddenly stop, as the rock was 'not there' to him.)
If the guy hiding disbelieved the rock, then it granted concealment. (The archer may see the rock [it's there for him] but since AC is a function of the defender, the rock wouldn't stop the arrows.)
Yes the spell was a pain in the aft to run, but once you understood it, it was chaotic fun.
as noted sorc is a great beginner class but boring early level.
I suggest mage armor and shield at level 1 and burning hands at level 3.
for feats dodge is good. between the feat and spells she gets +9 to AC allowing her to be choppy in the low levels untill she gets enough spells to have more fun as a true caster.
ask her if she does not mind playing an elf for free access to long sword and bow or she can simply use spear and maybe crossbow for melee damage.
try to roll play her character visually. when she casts mage armor she becomes cloaked in faint red scales and when she casts burning hands instead of it coming from her hands the effect comes from her mouth looking like a breath weapon.
trust me. this works wonders for new players. they have less to remember in the early game (no need to consider each of their spells for 5 mins per spell before an attack) and allows them to play the character a little more wildly without dropping dead to every goblin attack.
Dropping a wand of, say, shocking grasp or burning hands in the next bunch of loot could help keep things interesting for her character at lower levels, as it gives her more ways to viably contribute via magic at lower levels. Bump up the caster level of the wand if the rest of the party is well-optimised.
I'd also suggest letting the group find scrolls for spells that she might like before she actually gets to the level where she can cast them. So when she's at level 5, you might let her find a scroll of, say, haste, vampiric touch and the good ol' fireball, so she gets a taste of what those spells can achieve and can make a slightly more informed decision when she hits level 6 and chooses a 3rd level spell to learn.
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For beginners, it's going to be hard. On the one hand, multiclassing may be too confusing and time consuming for her. On the other, making any caster viable at early levels means foregoing the blast-y spells for combat control. The real danger from a Sorcerer at 1st level isn't going to be doing 1d4+1 force damage----it's going to be putting 4 of your Orc minions to sleep so the fighter can coup de gras them.
You said that she enjoys the role-playing aspect, so maybe reskinning the sorcerer to be more illusion/transmutation oriented at see what she can imagine doing with that ability. One nice thing about new players is that they're usually less inhibited in trying to do new things.
If you as GM are willing to retcon, have her take the tattoed sorc archetype.
Change to some spells that have more than 1 use.
Magic missile and sleep are basic simple attack spells.
Grease can be used to make someone fall down, slow a closing enemy (ex grease stairs), make some one drop their weapon/shield/wand, help an ally escape from a grapple, make it easier to move something, etc...
Silent image has about as many uses as can be imagined if the GM is permissive enough.
Polypurpose Panecea is entertaining.
Snapdragon Fireworks can be an attack does damage and can dazzle, distraction, and entertainment.
Bungle can be an amusing way to shut down a big dumb brute while your friends beat on it.
Vanish so your rogue friend can sneak attack or for your own emergency get-away.
Ant haul so the group can get away with more loot.
Hydraulic push lets the sorc act like big guy and break up a formation or move the guy blocking retreat.
Hypnotism can be fun both in and out of combat.
True strike to make sure the dragon claw attack hits.
Has the player even expressed concern over her fighting capabilities?
I know it's alien for some people but many players are perfectly happy being just average in power or even sub-optimal if it suits their play style and role play.
Just want to make sure.
Yes, we have discussed about this. She hates to hang in the back. But I think that's because she feels underpowered AND because of the playstyle of the other players.
The party consist of three characters: Fighter, Rogue, Druid, Inquisitor and the afore mentioned Sorcerer. And for some reason, they all love to melee. Even the Druid usually doesn't cast anything but just draws her scimitar and enters into the thick of it.
I may have to check my GMing style. Afteralla, I'm a rookie PF GM...
For a draconic sorceror wanting to go melee, there's really only one choice, the Dragon Disciple prestige class . She can keep most of her spellcasting ability while getting stat bonuses, natural armor increases which stack with the draconic bloodline powers, and of course her bloodline power progression keeps going. The class really is made for draconic sorcerors.Hope this helps, it isn't meant to min/max or anything but should let the sorceror feel more useful in combat.
She's going for the Dragon Disciple, this has been clear from the beginning.
IHMO, this isn't minmaxing. It is optimizing for fun. And I like fun :)
What are stats?
Stats are:
STR 11
DEX 13
CON 12
INT 12
WIS 10
CHA 18
25 point buy.
Well in all of my campaigns that i have done with new players i let them be really flexible with their characters at first to let them really find their niche. I would allow her to select any spell she wants to cast for the rest of level 2, still limit her casts per day though. Especially with how weak level 1 spells are it can't really hurt. Also like everyone has said, Burning hands is amazing.
Now this is something! I'm definately going to do something in the lines of this, now I just have to make it fit into the story..
My thanks to you all! There's a lot of great suggestions, keep them coming! I'n now going consider my options...
What are stats?
Stats are:
STR 11
DEX 13
CON 12
INT 12
WIS 10
CHA 1825 point buy.
Will you let her redo her stat that is horrible for a dragon disciple. Especially one that will do a significant amount of melee.
Did she put the +2 stats to charisma and have 20 in charisma?
We did the Stat buy together. And now that I look at it.. yea, it sucks. And needs to be changed. Can't remember where we put the +2 though, the character is human..
So it seems that I have ruined her game, because A) I suggested this stat-buy B) I chose her spells. Thanks for pointing that out :) Luckily there's still time to fix things..
EDIT: So yeah, considering the above, the entire character needs a revamp, because we did it together. All the feats, skill point attribution, traits are basically chosen by me. Oh she did have an opinion, which was "Okay" 95% of the time. But PF was like Quantum Mechanics to her then, what else she could've said? Make mistakes and learn..
We did the Stat buy together. And now that I look at it.. yea, it sucks. And needs to be changed. Can't remember where we put the +2 though, the character is human..
So it seems that I have ruined her game, because A) I suggested this stat-buy B) I chose her spells. Thanks for pointing that out :) Luckily there's still time to fix things..
She is missing her floating +2 because if you do the math her abilities is exactly 25 point buy. I guess one doesn't have to use all 25 points in a PB but she is missing 7 points if she put the +2 in charisma.
That is alot of points left on the table. Hey don't feel bad everyone make mistakes. Also since you are the GM you can fix this very easily.
Honestly her ability spread is just fine for a casting focus sorcerer. You sure she really wants to mix things in the frontline. I mean at least get to level 4 and see if things get better. Level 4 is really where the sorcerer class hits its stride.
It gets level 2 spells, and spells per day nearly doubles. This means even for 3 or 4 encounters she can be casting 2 - 3 spells, per encounter.
One cannot live if one is afraid of mistakes. Live and learn, eh?
But still, considering we (or should I say I?) did the character together, it needs at least somekind of revamp. All the feats, skill point distribution, traits etc are basically chosen by me. Oh she did have an opinion, which was "Okay" 95% of the time. But PF was like Quantum Mechanics to her then, what else she could've said?
But come Thurday, I'll fix this. That's when we game next time. And I'm going to fix it storywise. Sure, I could just rule it. "Your spells change". No. That's boring. I have an idea, more on that later on..
Yeah, like was said.
For a melee caster, need to decrease the charisma and put more points into all the physical stats. Exactly how much and where is matter of preference and build. I try to target 14's for dex and con.
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Depending on how far the campaign goes, she could also pick up Skill Focus (knowledge: planes), Eldritch Heritage (abyssal), and Improved Eldritch Heritage for more uses of the claws ability and heightened strength. Finding out her dragon ancestor was even more naughty than previously feared can be great for roleplaying, also...
Oterisk's Guide to Dragon Disciples has all sorts of good advice for this character concept.
Include an encounter with an NPC or trap that polymorphs her PC into a Fire Elemental. Have that "curse" wear off at level four or so, when Sorcerers get interesting.
Drop in a wand that looks like a dragon, that casts something like burning hands or lesser fire orb.
Or, convert her to a summoner with a dragon- shaped eidolon.
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In my opinion all spellcasters are boring at low-levels. Yea burning hands is cool but you have to get real close to the enemy to effect them, and that is sometimes dangerous for spellcasters. Just let her know that spellcasters can't do much at low-levels, just wait til' about lv. 6 and her sorc will start getting awesome and fun to play with. I had the same problem with my fire elementalist sorcerer, she is now 7th level and can unleash 5 fireballs, among a lot of other cool spells.
LazarX has the right idea. A combat-oriented dragon disciple should be making STR a priority, followed by CON. A CHA of 14 will allow her to cast all the spells she needs, with stat-boosting items covering her for the rest of her career. One of the big perks of the DD is the boost to stats, and that should be capitalised on - a DD should have one of the highest strengths, if not THE highest, in the party. I recommend adding all stat increases to STR, and let the toughness feat and DD's d12 hit points cover her hp.
Also, suggest to her spells that either enhance her ability to stay in the front lines or her ability to claw (and later bite) things to death. At lower levels, I'd suggest she wear a chain shirt and learn shield, true strike and stone shield (from the ARG). If she goes for, say, 20 STR, she should be able to hit stuff easily, and with an AC of at least 18 (from chain shirt and shield), her survivability should be decent enough - and against bosses, she can use stone shield to bump up her AC even further, though that should be used judiciously. At third level, swap out the chain shirt for mage armor (though hang on to it for when she runs out of spells).
As she progresses, encourage her to focus on buff-spells. Monstrous extremities will give her more natural attacks to complement her claws and bite (giving her a devastating bite+ 2 claws + 2 hoofs full attack routine with her bloodline power), haste is always good unless someone else in the party casts it regularly, heroism is a spell that can be maintained almost all-day at higher levels to make up for her lower BAB and increase her saving throws.