Toying around with an idea for a goblin who out to prove to society that not only is he a good and law abiding goblin but his entire clan can contribute to society and deserves a place at the table of high society ;)and even welcomed to live in the city.
Looking for some build ideas to support this I'd originally started out with alchemist but I'm leaning towards wizard just wondering if anyone has some interesting ideas maybe PrC's that would work well with this concept.
Thanks
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Well, if you want to convince people of things, good social skills are almost required...and not something most Goblins generally excel at. A Goblin Inquisitor with the Conversion Inquisition is probably your best be on that front (and, as a ranged specialist, very workable mechanically).
As a Wizard, though? Make a Wizard, make them a Goblin, maybe focus a bit on a Initiative, since you can do so, grab Stealth as a Class Skill if you can, and go to town.
You can do so by using the approach for any naturally evil and chaotic society to adapt to civilized life. Nothing new about it. That said, to do so would require you to abandon the very things that give goblins their unique identity. You'd have to remove the flavor of the race; without that identity they're nothing more than ugly halflings or gnomes.
You can do it, but I would highly recommend you don't; a goblin that is not an uncontrollable little chaos-bringer is simply not a goblin.
Goblin Empyreal blooded Sorcerer.
You can do so by using the approach for any naturally evil and chaotic society to adapt to civilized life. Nothing new about it. That said, to do so would require you to abandon the very things that give goblins their unique identity. You'd have to remove the flavor of the race; without that identity they're nothing more than ugly halflings or gnomes.
You can do it, but I would highly recommend you don't; a goblin that is not an uncontrollable little chaos-bringer is simply not a goblin.
I didn't say he would be perfect ;) his goals are noble but its the slip ups that will make it interesting, which will win out? the will to be better or his manic goblin side ;)
I didn't say he would be perfect ;) his goals are noble but its the slip ups that will make it interesting, which will win out? the will to be better or his manic goblin side ;)
That's not a lawful-aligned character, then. That's still chaotic, maybe neutral. To be lawful aligned, the goblin would have to have already overcome its natural chaotic tendencies; you cannot have a lawful alignment but still maintain a chaotic nature.
In order to have a lawful alignment, the goblin would have to possess the ability to consistently uphold his convictions.
The natural alignment for a Goblin is Neutral Evil, not Chaotic Evil. Just saying your talk about "naturally chaotic" goblins doesn't add up.
Even a chaotic person can choose to follow laws, if it suits their needs. Chaotic doesn't mean not law abiding- it means they aren't in and of themselves beholden to any law crede or code.
People need to keep in mind that chaotic doesnt' equate to law breaker and lawful doesn't equate to following all the laws. Its about how your character is and acts- not about external stuff.
That being said- its one thing for a lone goblin to convince society that he's not evil and that he's a good fella.
Its another thing entirely to think he can prove that *his entire tribe* is the same way.
Good is the defining part you are trying to get across to the population through rather than whether he is lawful, neutral, or chaotic. Your lil white gobbie needs to prove to folks that he's not just playing good- but that he IS good. That he's one of the good guys, he's just shorter and with sharper teeth.
Myself, I would probably stick with straight wizard. But its really more on how you act than what class or PrC you go with- imo. There isn't really a "redeem my race prc" that I know of :)
Pick spells that are clearly not "evil" or even hedging towards it, be judicious in helping people who are in need. Be clean (presdigitation is great for that) and be well spoken, a decent'ish charisma (12 or so I'd guess at least, if at all possible) with a rank or two in diplomacy. Some knowledge Nobility helps with the etiquette (Why yes Princess Peanut, I do eat with a fork- rather than trying to eat the fork).
Part of it can depend also on who you are trying to convince.
are you trying to have an upswelling of the commoners to support you?
Take some illusions, put on shows for the children and the masses- preferably for free. Eat with the common folk, show *them* that all gobbies aren't bad, evil, children (and dog) eating monsters.
A little knowledge religion tells you some common myths, a little perform oratory lets you relate it as a story to others. Your not-pitiful charisma helps you in that regard.
If you want to convince the nobles you are a good gobbie just tack on some knowledge nobility to the mix and maybe some perform-dance if you expect to get invited to the Ballroom. While they might invite you more as a carnival attraction your good etiquette and ability to participate might just show some of the big wigs that you aren't all that bad afterall. (I would avoid the story telling with them though- you want to be taken seriously, not as a jester or something).
Spell wise: Illusions are great for giving kid shows and have practical use for an adventurer as well. Make sure you snag some spells that you can use just around town helping people out. If you want to be known as a good guy you have to act good- and reversing a stereotype is all the more difficult. Helping folks out with little mendings and whatnot can go along way. (not suggesting this during an adventure but presumably you'll have some down time. Down time is perfect for this sort of thing).
Combat wise I'd go with debuffing and such and try to avoid the more "fry" type spells. You don't want to be known as the goblin who enjoys frying humans- even if they are bad humans. It just brings them back to the stereotype. Buff your allies, debuff and immobilize the bad guys.
Fun quirks.
Goblins hate dogs and horses. Your goblin likely will too. However, in the effort of convincing the world that you fit in- you have to at least act like you don't. This gives you at least some Rp room to "be a normal goblin" while also "trying to act like you aren't".
Try to imagine someone who hates cats, going over to a friend's house where there is a cat. They'd always be watching the cat, wondering where the cat is at, and probably just generally jumpy around them. Not necessairly phobic just wary. You can definately play this up abit.
Not only does it interject some charm into the character but it also shows folk that you are *trying* to fit in.
Ok wall of text over. thats about all I have for the moment. :)
-S
It reads like Bard is your go-to class, specifically the Street Performer archetype.
I didn't say he would be perfect ;) his goals are noble but its the slip ups that will make it interesting, which will win out? the will to be better or his manic goblin side ;)That's not a lawful-aligned character, then. That's still chaotic, maybe neutral. To be lawful aligned, the goblin would have to have already overcome its natural chaotic tendencies; you cannot have a lawful alignment but still maintain a chaotic nature.
In order to have a lawful alignment, the goblin would have to possess the ability to consistently uphold his convictions.
so you think someone who is 80-90% lawful good and slips up 10% of the time would change alignment eh ?
To truely work this concept, it'd not be just about convincing the rest of the world that goblins (or at least your tribe of goblins) is worthy, but you'd have to convince your unwashed masses as well (ie: the goblins on your end)
If you could somehow manage to swing the Good domain as a Separatist cleric of an actual goblin god, that'd be perfect...
Alas, I don't think you can get to good with a god that starts on the evil side of things, which Lamashtu and the Hero-Gods all do.
Though you might be able to settle with a domain with a better image, Perhaps Nobility or Protection or the like?
I still think the Separatist concept works best though.... you are trying to create something new, without completely abandoning the old, and convince all the goblins as well as everyone else that this is the way to go... Not to mention, for whatever reason, your god seems to support you in your endeavors... furthering justifying your cause.
his backstory is to have been the strongest SOB in the clan and is now second only to the chief, he has some support but its the PC campaign that will determine if he proves to the clan his way is better and gets to take over.
I was more thinking a high intelligence slant build, with skill ranks in the social skills as he not inherently charismatic but is smart enough to know how to get his way most of the time.
I think the right god even as a non Cleric would be helpful
so you think someone who is 80-90% lawful good and slips up 10% of the time would change alignment eh?
Well yes. One or two out of every ten decisions violates the character's personal convictions? That's not a lawful character. Slip-ups happen, but what you describe is a pattern. A pattern of the character violating his own beliefs or code. What he holds himself to. I wouldn't say this is a sign of a chaotic character, but it certainly is not lawful.
You said he would be fighting his "manic goblin side." Unless that impulse control was already in place, he would not actually be a lawful character. Slip-ups happen, but that's not what you describe.
so you think someone who is 80-90% lawful good and slips up 10% of the time would change alignment eh?Well yes. One or two out of every ten decisions violates the character's personal convictions? That's not a lawful character. Slip-ups happen, but what you describe is a pattern. A pattern of the character violating his own beliefs or code. What he holds himself to. I wouldn't say this is a sign of a chaotic character, but it certainly is not lawful.
You said he would be fighting his "manic goblin side." Unless that impulse control was already in place, he would not actually be a lawful character. Slip-ups happen, but that's not what you describe.
so by that logic a chaotic character who acts Lawful 10% of the time isn't Chaotic.
alignment is subjective anyway. and the level of alignment transgression varies
I'd say actions are less important than convictions unless you're actually a class with a code of conduct. If a goblin strives to be lawful it's as appropriate for him to detect as lawful as for someone who joins a good organization with every intention of betraying it but who has not yet done so and is acting good to maintain his cover to detect as evil.
as a wizard he could hide or alter his detectable alignment if it became an issue
Useful wall of text :)
Thanks Selgard some good ideas there.
the dog horse fear/hatred I'll definitely use possible as a trigger for slip ups ;) , a bit of magic to mess with these animals on occasions ;) oh how the druid will not approve of that :)
basically in this campaign the major city has a council of races human, elf, dwarf and half-orc , and my character thinks goblins deserve to be at that table
Useful wall of text :)Thanks Selgard some good ideas there.
the dog horse fear/hatred I'll definitely use possible as a trigger for slip ups ;) , a bit of magic to mess with these animals on occasions ;) oh how the druid will not approve of that :)
basically in this campaign the major city has a council of races human, elf, dwarf and half-orc , and my character thinks goblins deserve to be at that table
If he's the sole good goblin thats a hard row to hoe, that's for sure.. but if the entire clan is on board with it then it becomes somewhat easier. Sounds like a grand RP to be had though either way, especially if you get to hang around the city long enough throughout the levels to be come well known there. Your "mostly" good behaviored goblin who's saved the city and world several times over is more effective towards your goals than all the well-mannered banquets combined :)
As for alignment: as long as he's good and not evil he's golden. Lawful neutral or chaotic are relatively irrelevant as far as his goals are concerned- at least as far as how others perceive him is an issue.
Having your own personal set of rules to go by is far less important than snacking on the local children afterall and being Lawful does you no good if your code is to always make the bad long shanks welcome you into the fold before you stab them in the back.
lawful isn't good, chaotic isn't evil.
Stick with whichever you like + good and you outta be just fine.
-S
Useful wall of text :)Thanks Selgard some good ideas there.
the dog horse fear/hatred I'll definitely use possible as a trigger for slip ups ;) , a bit of magic to mess with these animals on occasions ;) oh how the druid will not approve of that :)
basically in this campaign the major city has a council of races human, elf, dwarf and half-orc , and my character thinks goblins deserve to be at that table
If he's the sole good goblin thats a hard row to hoe, that's for sure.. but if the entire clan is on board with it then it becomes somewhat easier. Sounds like a grand RP to be had though either way, especially if you get to hang around the city long enough throughout the levels to be come well known there. Your "mostly" good behaviored goblin who's saved the city and world several times over is more effective towards your goals than all the well-mannered banquets combined :)
As for alignment: as long as he's good and not evil he's golden. Lawful neutral or chaotic are relatively irrelevant as far as his goals are concerned- at least as far as how others perceive him is an issue.
Having your own personal set of rules to go by is far less important than snacking on the local children afterall and being Lawful does you no good if your code is to always make the bad long shanks welcome you into the fold before you stab them in the back.
lawful isn't good, chaotic isn't evil.
Stick with whichever you like + good and you outta be just fine.-S
that's basically his plan, become renowned in the city enough to be able to buy some nice housing for his clan and then win over his clan by bringing them to the city. It's not a perfectly plan but that's the whole point :) failing is often as fun as succeeding so either way it'll be a fun ride.
as for the law/chaos scale honestly I figured to set it at Lawful to begin with and then hand it over to the GM to slide the scale based on how I RP him because I'll play him the way I think he'd react, not how'd he'd need to react to hold an alignment.
Kudos for wanting to eschew steroetypes.
My first thought was the on "evolution vs. environment." In order to overcome a goblin's natural chaotic tendencies, one might think to have him orpahaned or captured and raised in a lawful environment.
For one thing, that's terribly close to cliche. For another, your goblin seems to be connected enough with his or her own tribe to want to improve their lot.
A goblin intelligent enough to study and practice wizardry should see the writing on the wall... the societal differences are too big. Not to mention that the fellow tribespeople might not embrace this same view- they likely don't desire to be seated at the table of high society.
Unless of course, the entire tribe (or part of it) is an offshoot. They may have found religion contrary to normal goblin society, perhaps sometime in the past. Human society has many facets. Why not goblin?
So for me, it's all in the character background and less in the mechanics. Alchemy seems a good pairing though.
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Another bit of leverage your character might want ot pursue is to offer something to society that only the goblins can provide, or are more likely to provide than other people.
It could be that they'll do certain jobs no one else wants to do, or they could offer some goods or services that they are uniquely qualified to produce. Zobeck's kobolds have a bit of this going on.
Another bit of leverage your character might want ot pursue is to offer something to society that only the goblins can provide, or are more likely to provide than other people.
It could be that they'll do certain jobs no one else wants to do, or they could offer some goods or services that they are uniquely qualified to produce. Zobeck's kobolds have a bit of this going on.
Goblin garbage collection and recycling
Slogan "What you don't know won't hurt you"Goblins become the official town scavengers cleaning up the street. The fact that they then eat the refuse behind closed doors need not be common knowlege. Material scraps get re-purposed into cheap alternative items for the lower class.
a bit tounge n cheek but it kinda works.
so by that logic a chaotic character who acts Lawful 10% of the time isn't Chaotic.
Yes; a chaotic character is incapable of acting in a lawful manner, because chaotic characters lack personal convictions to follow; one cannot "act Lawful" unless they ascribe to a code of behavior, and accepting such a code of behavior prevents one from being chaotic in alignment.
so by that logic a chaotic character who acts Lawful 10% of the time isn't Chaotic.Yes; a chaotic character is incapable of acting in a lawful manner, because chaotic characters lack personal convictions to follow; one cannot "act Lawful" unless they ascribe to a code of behavior, and accepting such a code of behavior prevents one from being chaotic in alignment.
By that logic, no character can ever be chaotic good. Because a good person always tries to act to help other people, they're following a personal conviction or a code of behavior that they should always help others. That means that they must be lawful, since a chaotic person cannot hold a consistent belief like that.
By that logic, no character can ever be chaotic good. Because a good person always tries to act to help other people, they're following a personal conviction or a code of behavior that they should always help others. That means that they must be lawful, since a chaotic person cannot hold a consistent belief like that.so by that logic a chaotic character who acts Lawful 10% of the time isn't Chaotic.Yes; a chaotic character is incapable of acting in a lawful manner, because chaotic characters lack personal convictions to follow; one cannot "act Lawful" unless they ascribe to a code of behavior, and accepting such a code of behavior prevents one from being chaotic in alignment.
like I said, alignment is subjective ;)
10 GM's will give you 10 different answers on that kind of question.
followup
thoughts on using enchantments/charm spells to help get past societal prejudices
I mean the goal of my character is to convince people he'd a good egg and to give his small clan a chance. So would it not make some sense to use charm to further this goal
and where would you sit on the law/chaos good/evil scale of such an application of charm and similar effects ?
Oddly enough, using charms to gain acceptance for one group within another might just be considered a Lawful application of enchantments. But let's break things down by school.
- Abjuration - protecting people from all sorts of nastiness (and protecting himself while not seeming armoured-up) is good, but it's not quite flashy enough to make for great PR.
- Conjuration - a potent school, but I can't see it supporting the actual mission here.
- Divination - no-one likes a no-it-all.
- Enchantment - soothing the savage beast is nice. Charming the innkeeper's daughter will get you skinned.
- Evocation - too tempting. Far too tempting.
- Illusion - nice, but... what exactly is it going to do, exactly?
- Necromancy - no.
- Transmutation - useful for providing all sorts of communal services, that stick around long after you moved on to the next village.
Sorry I should have mentioned we are kicking off at level 3.
@VRMH
nice breakdown , however I'm thinking maybe something like evocation is the right choice because "helping" is where he's heading not where he's come from, and having that big blast temptation could be interesting
could get even more interesting if he learns merciful spell and turns mass destruction spell knowledge into mass pacification.
on a side note how much would a lesser Metamagic Rod of Merciful Spell be ? 1000gp ? lesser +1 metamagic is 3k, or don't +0 effect metamagic rods exist ?
Make sure you add sparkles and a halo or people may assume he's evil and kill on sight.
Make sure you add sparkles and a halo or people may assume he's evil and kill on sight.
odly enough I'd already ear-marked 100-200gp or so of the intial 800gp spend we have on some really nice clothes and jewelry , white with gold lining perhaps ;) also needed to have a hope in hell of impressing the upper class.
I tell ya first time I pictured my lil goblin trying to wear a White Robe of Archmagi I laughed ...alot ;)
Make sure you add sparkles and a halo or people may assume he's evil and kill on sight.odly enough I'd already ear-marked 100-200gp or so of the intial 800gp spend we have on some really nice clothes and jewelry , white with gold lining perhaps ;) also needed to have a hope in hell of impressing the upper class.
I tell ya first time I pictured my lil goblin trying to wear a White Robe of Archmagi I laughed ...alot ;)
5'Radius Ring of gold + light spell + Prestidigitation = Halo
Or just a special Ioun torch that's made to travel around your head really fast and leave a light trail.
Make sure you add sparkles and a halo or people may assume he's evil and kill on sight.odly enough I'd already ear-marked 100-200gp or so of the intial 800gp spend we have on some really nice clothes and jewelry , white with gold lining perhaps ;) also needed to have a hope in hell of impressing the upper class.
I tell ya first time I pictured my lil goblin trying to wear a White Robe of Archmagi I laughed ...alot ;)
5'Radius Ring of gold + light spell + Prestidigitation = Halo
Or just a special Ioun torch that's made to travel around your head really fast and leave a light trail.
nice idea, think I'll take it ..YOINK
There is the Cap of Human Guise, that would make you appear as a small human child, adult halfling, or adult gnome.
At 800gp, it's a steal.It's in the Advanced Race Guide.
mmm would use up all 800gp of my starting gold but its certainly an interesting option.
although he kinda wants to stand out as a goblin to impress the locals not hide
The Inquisitor with x2 wisdom to Bluff and Diplomacy is still an option.
mmm dunno I just find it hard to get excited about the inquisitors, plus I don't need a massive bluff/diplo score, getting people to like a goblin shouldn't be a trivial affair.
Maybe the Goblin was an infant when found abandoned... maybe somewhere like Thistletop... and was raised by Humans in a town like... Sandpoint... maybe?
You do not know much about Inquisitors.
played one for 5 levels wasn't overly impressed
Now this I like! You got a chaotic player playing a lawful PC! I love how you often throw monkey wrenches in your own build and make things difficult for yourself just because you can and it looks intresting.
plus I don't need a massive bluff/diplo score, getting people to like a goblin shouldn't be a trivial affair.I'm thinking maybe something like evocation is the right choice because "helping" is where he's heading not where he's come from, and having that big blast temptation could be interesting
as for the law/chaos scale honestly I figured to set it at Lawful to begin with and then hand it over to the GM to slide the scale based on how I RP him because I'll play him the way I think he'd react, not how'd he'd need to react to hold an alignment.
the dog horse fear/hatred I'll definitely use possible as a trigger for slip ups ;) , a bit of magic to mess with these animals on occasions ;) oh how the druid will not approve of that :)
All sound like quite the chaotic outlook ;)
@Heaven's Agent, He himself is a good indicator of how a chaotic alignment can pretend to be lawful, Plus there is the bluff skill in this game... its possible...
Me myself am quite chaotic. Playing an alchemist I am just as likely to bomb the enemy as I am to implant it in a fellow teammate. Heck, even myself, my favorite toon was a goblin that set himself on fire on a regular basis just so he could burn someone by touching them. Then he would cause people to explode just by touching them. That and exploding when he died...
Anyways chaotic is more free spirited, not so much anti-order or anti-establishment. Who's to say you cant follow an order if it benefits you? Does being chaotic mean you HAVE to break every law that you came across? From my perspective that would more likely be lawful in itself. Just lawful against the laws.
So... Phasics... Welcome to the chaotic side! and if you manage to sucker an entire town and your clan to follow you, well, all the better!
Ps hopefully it dont offend you when i call you chaotic, hopefully you see the humorous intent behind it as it seems you are the kind of guy that would.
Now this I like! You got a chaotic player playing a lawful PC! I love how you often throw monkey wrenches in your own build and make things difficult for yourself just because you can and it looks interesting.
All sound like quite the chaotic outlook ;)
@Heaven's Agent, He himself is a good indicator of how a chaotic alignment can pretend to be lawful, Plus there is the bluff skill in this game... its possible...
Me myself am quite chaotic. Playing an alchemist I am just as likely to bomb the enemy as I am to implant it in a fellow teammate. Heck, even myself, my favorite toon was a goblin that set himself on fire on a regular basis just so he could burn someone by touching them. Then he would cause people to explode just by touching them. That and exploding when he died...
Anyways chaotic is more free spirited, not so much anti-order or anti-establishment. Who's to say you cant follow an order if it benefits you? Does being chaotic mean you HAVE to break every law that you came across? From my perspective that would more likely be lawful in itself. Just lawful against the laws.
So... Phasics... Welcome to the chaotic side! and if you manage to sucker an entire town and your clan to follow you, well, all the better!
Ps hopefully...
:)
Ah but its the delicate dance I shall weave.
Honestly it will depend what the GM throws up situation wise my lil goblin really will trying to be lawful but in the right circumstances his savage side might just come out....more and more.
I don't really believe in playing a character the same from start to finish I like to see them evolve the more dramatic the better.
Perhaps he'll go off the lawful deep end into paladin lawful territory ;), just depends what happens , he'll be shaped by events ;)
pure choas, pure law or somewhere in between won't know till I get there and look back ;)
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I don't think this has been mentioned: Goblins loathe written language. I don't know if this is nature or nurture but it's a stumbling block for a goblin being a wizard.
I would suggest the Mosaic Mage from Super Genius Games.
I don't think this has been mentioned: Goblins loathe written language. I don't know if this is nature or nurture but it's a stumbling block for a goblin being a wizard.I would suggest the Mosiac Mage from Super Genius Games.
He's already personally overcome that (he had a mentor that had also overcome it) and is trying to get his clan to overcome it as well. He see's it as necessary for integration into a higher level of society.
getting the clan to accept that is just one more challenge in a long list.
Ha this sounds like loads of fun! I would mostly love to play his goblin buddy the firebomber thats about as chaotic as they come, and slowly influencing him, coaxing him, showing him alternative ways, leaning on him, just to see him give in >XD I think they could make an epic tag team duo and the role playing aspects just scream entertaining!
hey you go talk to the party bouncer, see if you can get us in! Ill sneak around the side and blow up the wall, try to get in that way! 5gp to whoever gets in the quickest and a bonus 10 for who makes the flashiest entrance! wadya say? Dont worry it will be a directed blast, its all under control >.>
Ha this sounds like loads of fun! I would mostly love to play his goblin buddy the firebomber thats about as chaotic as they come, and slowly influencing him, coaxing him, showing him alternative ways, leaning on him, just to see him give in >XD I think they could make an epic tag team duo and the role playing aspects just scream entertaining!
hey you go talk to the party bouncer, see if you can get us in! Ill sneak around the side and blow up the wall, try to get in that way! 5gp to whoever gets in the quickest and a bonus 10 for who makes the flashiest entrance! wadya say? Dont worry it will be a directed blast, its all under control >.>
Oh perfect I'm so handing that idea to my GM as a "helpful" antagonist NPC :D
Yay! I made it into the campaign! Now to plunge yet another peaceful world into complete anarchy mumble mumble mutter mutter...
Party leader "guys we need a distraction to get past the guards"
Me "alright im on it!"
walks up to the fruit stand, spends a few seconds inspecting the fruit... then comes back.
A few minutes later, Party leader "what did you do?"
Me "just pissing on the apples"
Party leader "?"
....
....
The the fruit stand, the stall next to the stand, the cart across the street from the stand, and every square inch in-between are engulfed in an inferno with the guards rushing past you to figure out what the heck just happened.
Me "dont like apples..."
Party leader "O.o"
Gotta love remote detonation XD
Anyways, Going away for the weekend, Have fun 8D
Anyways, Going away for the weekend, Have fun 8D
Cheers mate