I'm not talking about traps/hazards/haunts; these are pretty straight forward. However; I just ran a one shot that's turning into a campaign so I need to follow through w/experience and treasure. During the game the players encountered a couple situations that affected the outcome of the game and set the path for the next one but these situations had nothing to do with fighting.
Ex: the party encountered a group of guards that started bad-mouthing them and almost turned them away from entering the town. The game would've continued had they not gotten in, but the players really roleplayed the situation well, made some great Diplomacy and Knowledge: Nobility and other checks to win over the guard and walk right in through the main gate, changing the whole tone of the game.
I want to award them experience for that (since right now I'm not using Hero Points. May add it starting next game). I suppose it would be the xp for "defeating" the guards but since they were never in any real danger I didn't know what to do.
Another example was that they came into a chamber, killed a giant spider guard, and found a bunch of townsfolk webbed up and in pretty bad shape. A successful Heal check revealed they'd be fine for a few more minutes and the townsfolk themselves actually said "go on ahead; we'll be fine" but since there were no doors to the chamber the party decided to use another Heal to do what they could mechanically for the poison, then unleashed 3 Channel Energy uses to heal up all the townsfolk (along with some party members but still).
In that situation there was no reason other than story to expend all those resources on the townsfolk but they did. The second Heal check was a natural 20 so I said they were able to restore enough strength back with the tinctures and tonics in the cleric's kit to the townsfolk that they could at least stand and walk a bit so I'd feel bad NOT rewarding that effort in some way.
What guidelines do you use to reward such situations in your own games?
I generally give XP for a CR-equivalent encounter, i.e., if the PCs are 5th level, I give them XP as if they defeated a CR 5 monster, or 1600 XP; if they're 9th level, they get 6400 XP.
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Good question. I have done something similar, rp awards, story goal awards, and I think its important to try and get a percentage of your xp as these types of awards to deepen the feel of the game. The only question is how much more difficult are the diplomacy or knowledge dcs to justify a CR 3 vs a cr7 award? Should it be like 1-2 dcs to overcome to get the award per CR?
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For "above and beyond" RP, like in your second example, it's a good place to offer an in-game reward from the people the party has helped. Maybe after the townsfolk are rescued and return home, they remember how kind the PCs were and the party can buy stuff in that town at a substantial discount from now on. Maybe one of the rescued NPCs had a great-grandfather who was an adventurer and has inherited a magic weapon of some kind that's been sitting in the attic for generations, and they give it to a PC. I had a PC in one of my games that encountered a non-aggressive ghost that was basically just there for flavor in the haunted smithy in the ruined town. The PC took the time to find out the ghost's story -- that he had died before finishing forging a sword for his son -- spent a rank in Craft when he leveled up, and finished the sword to lay the spirit to rest. Afterward, the ghost appeared to him to thank him and asked him to carry the weapon which turned into a ghost touch sword.
For "above and beyond" RP, like in your second example, it's a good place to offer an in-game reward from the people the party has helped. Maybe after the townsfolk are rescued and return home, they remember how kind the PCs were and the party can buy stuff in that town at a substantial discount from now on. Maybe one of the rescued NPCs had a great-grandfather who was an adventurer and has inherited a magic weapon of some kind that's been sitting in the attic for generations, and they give it to a PC. I had a PC in one of my games that encountered a non-aggressive ghost that was basically just there for flavor in the haunted smithy in the ruined town. The PC took the time to find out the ghost's story -- that he had died before finishing forging a sword for his son -- spent a rank in Craft when he leveled up, and finished the sword to lay the spirit to rest. Afterward, the ghost appeared to him to thank him and asked him to carry the weapon which turned into a ghost touch sword.
This is an extremely awesome RP story -- kudos for coming up with such a story-focused reward, and kudos to your player for being conscientious enough to use a skill point to see it through. Sounds like a great time!
Ok, so here's what I ended up deciding:
The party's level 1 and encountered 1 CR 1 trap, 1 CR 1/2 fight,5 CR 1 fights, and 1 CR 2 fight; I've awarded experience for each of these per the encounter CR. They also had 3 scenes that amounted to RP encounters; a very well played clue-gathering skill challenge, the Diplomacy with the town guard and the exchange w/the injured townsfolk.
On the suggestions here I'm going to award 2 CR 1 xp awards. For the townsfolk I am going to use a boon. The town they're in has a lawful alignment and is neatly divided into 5 districts; one of these is kind of the "ignored district" where the adventure went down. The townsfolk they saved are from this district, called the Firmfoot District and as many of the district NPC's have told them: they "look after their own"
So the party is going to be celebrated as neighborhood heroes. The district is all commoners and laborers so there's not a lot of discounted services or good they might offer, however there is an inn/tavern there called the Hammered Goblin where the party's been staying: they just got comped. The food is terrible but there's a brewery at the far end of the district that many of these folks work for so the beer is always tops - now the party will find their gold goes a lot more rounds even with the best they have on tap.
Thanks for all the help on this one!
I really like SKR's step level advancement system.
We have been using it in our group for a while. I like it as GM, because it is easy to figure. Players like the constant advancement of their character. I like the 3 or 4 session pace that it gives.
Our group tends to be a mix of combat and role playing encounters, so this really fits for our group.
I've found giving EXP for roleplaying encourages more roleplaying. That's why we play right, hack'n'slash can get a little stagnant.
Agree that you should give EXP for a CR for the group lvl
By all means, reward good roleplaying. Otherwise you end up with every single rat and cat getting slaughtered for XP.
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I prefer believable in-game rewards, to xp, mainly because as I began with BECMI D&D, and AD&D 1st Edition, the speed of levelling in 3rd Edition/PF always seems unseemly fast.
There's also the danger of one or two PCs claiming a monopoly on most of the out-of-combat xp, and creating wild disparities in PC level.
You have to decide early on, if you're going to grant individual awards, or share evenly among the whole PC group, just like you would for a combat award, but bear in mind that scouting, tracking, trapfinding, and diplomacy are the perfect opportunity for solo missions. And you will have to explain why the group who guarded the camp are getting shares in xp for events that occurred elsewhere.
I don't begrudge a few hundred xp here and there, but when you have one PC built for Diplomacy, and another traditional 'dour and taciturn' dwarf, built for adventuring effectiveness, and it's always the same 'face' PC who volunteers for solo info-gathering missions...
What do you tell 'Face', when he demands that his story xp is his, and his alone; yet expects an equal share in the adventuring xp, just for being present, even if he was as much use as a wet rag.
I can only speak as a GM as I haven't been a solid player in a decade (though I'm still a stone Playah, but that's a different story...)but I prefer giving out both in and out of game rewards.
If "face" wants something for his troubles then I figure out what he wants and give it to him, immediately. Not xp mind you, but something more substantive. I have a "face" in my current game that's interested in becoming a better archer. Congrats; for talking your way into town with the guard, they point you to the one blacksmith good enough to make THEIR weapons. If anyone's arrows are the best, it's his.
XP IMO will always be a group affair. Even in solo scenes it contributes to the overall campaign, or else I don't reward it at all. Fights are easy to score but these non-combats are tougher than I guessed.
Anyway, it's all about diversity for me. Players don't know WHAT they're going to get when they have a good roleplaying session in my game, but they learn to expect something good.
I bypass the whole issue and distribute flat XP per session.
If they spend the entire game negotiating with Baron von Steuben, they get the same XP as if they cleared out the entire Caves of Chaos.
I've found that it allows for more roleplaying, makes the world feel more real (they don't have to Kill Things And Take Their Stuff to advance), and the players don't feel like they're falling behind if they investigate rumors for a while before charging full-bore into the teeth of the Horsemen or something.
The hardest part is deciding on an amount that works well. I also instituted a bootstrap - the lowest level character can never be more than N levels below the highest level. That way players who don't show up don't gradually become completely ineffective. Sure, they're not as powerful as the players who always show up, but it's more important to me that a player feel useful instead of feeling like they're being penalized for living in the real world.
I reward xp based on succeeding at goals, rather than overcoming challenges. So in a dungeon crawl, they get xp for the amount of treasure they obtain (like in earlier editions of D&D), since they're goal is to obtain treasure. It doesn't matter how they obtained said treasure, only that they did so. If they're goal is to stop the cultists of Yog-Sothoth from summoning their master to the Material Plane, they get xp for doing that, not for slaughtering all the cultists.
As for how much xp... probably anywhere from x1 to x4 a monster of the APL for "quest xp" and 1 xp for every sp (since I use a silver standard instead of a gold standard).
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I don't use XP in my Kingmaker game.
My Skull & Shackles game uses a shared xp pool. As such I give out rewards for Role-Playing encounters.
In home brew games I've run if PCs manage to Bluff, Intimidate or Diplomatically talk their way past an encounter I give them XP as if they defeated the encounter.
I do the same if:
PCs bypass an encounter through stealth.
PCs bypass an encounter with kn. (engineering)/ craft (trapmaking)
PCs bypass an encounter by flying over it.
PCs bypass an encounter by bribing their way through it.
PCs solve a riddle, puzzle or mystery.
If there's tension, a conflict or test of some kind and a resolution that moves the adventure forward (for good or ill) I hand out experience. It makes non-violent choices viable, allows PCs who aren't combat machines to shine and lets your PCs have creative solutions.
End the tyranny of XP! Throw off your chains! Advance levels by plot!
End the tyranny of XP! Throw off your chains! Advance levels by plot!
One big fat glaring problem with that sentiment... My games have no plot.
No, that's what happened. A plot is... plotted.
Even if I did define what happened in my games at the plot, how does that help me figure out when the PCs level? My games just don't have a "story arc" that would determine when it woukd be appropriate to level, they're about a bunch of adventurers doing adventures. They level up based on how succesful they are at adventuring, measured by how many xp they managed to accumulate.
I have 2 extremes in gaming groups: one wants no plot - I mean none. They're all tactical types and they feel that the blurbs of fluff in a Descent scenario are too much. For them I'm planning on beefing up my modular dungeon pieces, creating a layout every session, and just letting them hack up some monsters. They will advance w/out XP every 2 or 3 sessions, depending on how far they get in said layout.
The other group inspired this thread. 45 minutes of our first session was just the 2 PCs investigating every possible thing they could about a Fey Ring. Neither of them took Knowledge: Nature so they couldn't tell WHAT made the footprints or left the long wiry hairs here and there (korred) but they got that the stones'd been stoneshaped, knew magic was involved, knew that humans had adopted such structures from arcane fey traditions, knew that the stones weren't a perfect ring (korreds are chaotic), and NUMEROUS other facts.
It sort-of helped propel the plot, but mostly ate up time. Still, I gave them a CR 1 XP award.
I'm using XP in that game because I've never met these 2 gamers ever and they asked for a number. Frankly I don't much use XP much anymore so I asked the questions in this thread.
On the medium speed track they're exactly halfway to 2nd level after one session. But then again we did a lot and the saved like a dozen people's lives, including the lord of the town. Also we only plan on meeting once a month, so its a six hour marathon every time we get together.
That's far too quick a leveling rate for me, personally.
I can't determine when encounter difficulty increases. That's for the players to decide. They want easier encounters? They go to any easier area, such as a higher level of the dungeon. They want more difficult encounters? They go to a harder area, like a lower level of the dungeon. So how am I supposed to determine from the "plot", when to give my PCs a level, when the plot is primarily directed by PC actions? Even the actions of NPCs are not according to some narrative, but rather from reactions to what the PCs do.
Well it makes sense if you look at it a certain way. Areas with more dangerous monsters will tend to have more dangerous monsters overall, as lesser monsters will tend to be driven out by the more dangerous ones. Putting them in order might be stretching a bit, but it too can be justified. For instance, in my Monster Hill dungeon the lower you go, the more close you are to the portals that are the source of the place's evil, thus why it gets more dangerous. In a general sense, though I was refering more to the fact that my campaigns are mostly "status quo" and if a certain monster lairs in a certain area the PCs are going to encounter it when they go there whether they are 1st level or 20th level, regardless of whether or not it is an appropriate challenge. The matter of the dungeon levels was just an example to illustrate that.
The only reason I started this thread is because my new players ASKED for their xp (they're old school). Rather than continue to fight about it I just broke down and calculated some. Going forward I may just hand out arbitrary numbers.
I'm more of a "we get there WHEN we get there" kind of guy about leveling and such. In that way I mean that when the party's completed some objectives and gotten beat up enough in the process we level.
As for play style, I've got 2 very different campaigns going. One group cares little for plot and so I'm breaking out my modular dungeons and molds, working on crafting 12-15 rooms worth of dungeon, and putting them through a big D-crawl with encounters ranging between -2/+2 to APL.
The other group (prompting this thread) are highly story driven and as such I have a single session arc as well as a 3 level arc going simultaneously while carefully crafting encounters to add to or advance said plotlines.
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The only reason I started this thread is because my new players ASKED for their xp (they're old school). Rather than continue to fight about it I just broke down and calculated some. Going forward I may just hand out arbitrary numbers.
The true answer of compromise. :) I did the same for a few levels before I finally just stopped wasting everyones time with meaningless numbers.
Mark, I had honestly never even thought about XP other than to award it and track it until I played in a game with a GM who didn't use it. At first I was all freaked out, constantly worrying about progress and the GM kept saying "when it's time to level up, you'll level up."
Eventually I just absolutely stopped worrying about it. I just played my character. And I noticed an amazing thing. I started worrying more about what my character was able to do NOW than what he/she would be able to do when the odometer clicked to a new number. I started focusing on THIS level instead of NEXT level.
And then when the GM said "OK, you level up" it was like Christmas or something. So I adopted it for my own group. They had exactly the same reaction. Now all of us award levels by plot and nobody tracks XP. Nobody begs for "role play XP" nobody complains about not enough XP, nobody asks "how close are we?"...
We just play our characters and when it happens, it happens.
I have just really been amazed by how much more pleasant the game has become. I can plan my encounters with no worries about "what if half the party hasn't leveled up yet?" or "what if they turn left instead of right and hit this encounter at level X instead of level Y?" I have my encounters planned for a certain level, and when I feel the party has done enough to earn a level, I start planning new encounters.
It just works. Or at least it has for our player groups.
Removed some posts. Please be respectful of other people's play styles.
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I really like this idea and will have to consider how to incorporate it with or in place of the traditional system we now employ. Perhaps adding up the various xp for each encounter and then awarding it with possible bonuses for exceptional Struggle, Cleverness and Entertainment.
Cheers
I reward xp based on succeeding at goals, rather than overcoming challenges. So in a dungeon crawl, they get xp for the amount of treasure they obtain (like in earlier editions of D&D), since they're goal is to obtain treasure. It doesn't matter how they obtained said treasure, only that they did so. If they're goal is to stop the cultists of Yog-Sothoth from summoning their master to the Material Plane, they get xp for doing that, not for slaughtering all the cultists.
As for how much xp... probably anywhere from x1 to x4 a monster of the APL for "quest xp" and 1 xp for every sp (since I use a silver standard instead of a gold standard).
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Another suggestion, I find awarding xp problematic. It alters the balance of the party and is too difficult to judge exact numbers.
Instead I award a hero point. Similar but not exactly like Ultimate Combat's version, during each session I tally every cool roleplaying or combat deed each PC performs. At the end of the session these hero points are rewarded. You can develope what each one does, but we generally allow a re-roll or change minor details in a story. Spending 3 hero points at once can change a major detail such as your PC dieing. This keeps players engaged during both roleplaying and combat encounters and prevents one PC from becomming higher level because "he is a better roleplayer"
... dont use xp any more.
xp and alignment are the most expendable parts of the game.
... sorry that doesnt answer your question at all....
Story Awards: Feel free to award Story Awards when
players conclude a major storyline or make an important
accomplishment. These awards should be worth double
the amount of experience points for a CR equal to the APL.
Particularly long or difficult story arcs might award even
more, at your discretion as GM.
The above is directly from the Core rulebook page 399.