I agree pit spells are pretty darn powerful, even expeditious excavation is a great spell if for no other reason than stopping charges and forcing flankers to move.
in one book... possibly the same book your talking about.
we had a near TPK when one NPC cast suffocation killing one character then hungry pit or some other pit spell removing 2 others from the fight. the GM basically had to have the NPC become goblin stupid for 3 or 4 rounds or it would have been a flat out TPK ending the campaign.
on the other hand... there is a short window of time where those spells are super powerful. for 2 or 3 levels they are murder but after that pitspells generally become useless as most players have some form of flight, jump, dimensional door, super jump skills or some other method of negating the pit spells.
we play them as is but the GM just does not play them to absolute full potential until he has characters that (with some skill and intelligence) have the ability to counter them.
I wont for example use hungry pit and create wall combo (to cover it) until the party is at least 10th level and only against those who have SOME chance of survival either on their own or from party help.
BTW... that reminds me of a few pit related questions I wanted to ask... will start a new thread.
I'm DMing a group that includes a sorcerer who's fond of those pit spells, especially Hungry Pit and a 7th Level addition from Rite Publishing called Pursuing Pit.
But they're useless against creatures with a Space larger than 10' or who can fly/air walk, and that describes a lot of the creatures they've run into in the latter half of Rise of the Runelords.
on the other hand... there is a short window of time where those spells are super powerful. for 2 or 3 levels they are murder but after that pitspells generally become useless as most players have some form of flight, jump, dimensional door, super jump skills or some other method of negating the pit spells.
here is why pit spells are amazing even at level 10+
pit spells are extradimentional spaces, means no teleport out, no dimention door, and no mundane means of making the dc40 jump check to jump the 30 feet out of the door. now if you quicken a pit spell, then standard action stonwall on top of it, that character is done. dismiss the spell then splat DEAD! i love pit spells when i play my caster characters.
|
The pit spells are good, and vicious, but hardly overpowered. As others state, the ability to fly makes the spell meaningless, as does being Hufge or bigger. That's almost on par with the "Person" spell in regards to target selection, or at least it is as levels increase. And climbing out is far from impossible for many creatures.
[pit spells are extradimentional spaces, means no teleport out, no dimention door, and no mundane means of making the dc40 jump check to jump the 30 feet out of the door. now if you quicken a pit spell, then standard action stonwall on top of it, that character is done.
Sounds correct by RAW but overpowerd too.
dismiss the spell then splat DEAD!
So you create a save-or-death situation with the combination of two spells. I think that was not intended.
Also, they can be double-edged swords. IN one nasty fight a demon grappled my paladin and threw him into an acid pit our sorceror had made.
I've seen that happen before as well. Funny thing though, the character that was thrown in got cursed earlier that day, so he couldn't even attempt get out without help.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
If someone does the pit+wall combo, I have it deal damage to the creature as if the wall fell on them.
My group banned them. I wouldn't Play in a setting where the were allowed.
I dont know what The designers was thinking When they came up with a reflex save or die Spell.
Sure some Will SAy there are Ways out - potion of flying comes to mind - but how many monsters carry one of Them around?
They way i see it if a Spell is soo good that anyone who could cast it would cast it (and pick it over all other spells )if they had Half a brain - then there is something wrong.. Either with All the other Spells or that one.
But if players wanna keep the Spell in Play just add it to All Arcane spellcasters, and TPK if thats what it takes to make a point.
|
I absolutly love them :-) I ran an illusionist gnome in JR (till he got eaten) who used them a lot. I would combine them with illusions for all sorts of fun combinations of battlefield control.
I can see why they would be frustrating but they provide nowhere near the amount of control that a wall does.
And, honestly, if the big bad is getting taken out by a pit/ wall combo then the GM is doing something wrong. The saves, are, after all reflex saves, in my experiance those tend to be the highest saves generally.
Also, while they may be extra dimmensional spaces I don't think they would/ should block teleport and dimension door as the spaces are not closed off and have an "open" side into reality.
*edit for spelling
My group banned them. I wouldn't Play in a setting where the were allowed.
I dont know what The designers was thinking When they came up with a reflex save or die Spell.
Sure some Will SAy there are Ways out - potion of flying comes to mind - but how many monsters carry one of Them around?
They way i see it if a Spell is soo good that anyone who could cast it would cast it (and pick it over all other spells )if they had Half a brain - then there is something wrong.. Either with All the other Spells or that one.But if players wanna keep the Spell in Play just add it to All Arcane spellcasters, and TPK if thats what it takes to make a point.
I don't understand why your group would ban these spells. Once you fight creatures bigger than Large or with flying, or the ability to climb out, it basically sucks. I've played a high level wizard with these spells, they do not solve every single fight.
If someone does the pit+wall combo, I have it deal damage to the creature as if the wall fell on them.
and then got into a head on colision with it moving at 50mph? anything that can survive that is something im running from.
pit spells are extradimentional spaces, means no teleport out, no dimention door, and no mundane means of making the dc40 jump check to jump the 30 feet out of the door. now if you quicken a pit spell, then standard action stonwall on top of it, that character is done. dismiss the spell then splat DEAD! i love pit spells when i play my caster characters.
thats one of those readings that is RAW but not RAI. its not an intuitive understanding of the rule, a better explanation would be that the pit itself opens into an extra dimensional space but the surface of the pit (the part that the players are standing on), is not subject to the extra dimensional space rule... in other words its just a pit. no one has to bother with the whole casting spells out of the whole rule.
at least no one I know does.
you create a pit on paper, its no different the portible hole. it uses the same rules, thats all there is to that.
now if you really want to break create pit what you do is:
you lay down 20x20 foot sheets of parchment.
cast create pit on it.
bull rush target into pit.
fold up paper, and put in bag of holding/haversack/effecient quiver/ fire/ demiplane/ ect...
i was just talking to a friend about this discussion and he showed me the stupidity of how you can make this a game ender. mind you im not saying this spell is broken, just that it CAN be broken if you let your players do it.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Concordia-
I've played through that book and while the pits could be problematic for some encounters there are several big threats that just wouldn't fit into the pits.
A solution to the climb problem would be to just have the enemies carry rope and hooks. In a place with lots of ruins I don't see how it would be unbelievable at all for enemies to carry such equipment and it definitly wouldn't thro off the wealth levels of the party. Especially in that campaign.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Why would rolls of pure 20 help? Natural 20s are not auto successes on skill checks like climb
|
The pit spells being discussed are 4th and 5th level spells. Lets look at other spells at 4th level. I'll let the reader mentally compare power levels. As long as these other spells are in the game I have to conclude that Pits are not broken.
4th level Core Book Spells
Black Tentacles (no save)
Confusion (area save or suck)
Enervation (no save)
Resilient Sphere (also a reflex save and no chance to climb out)
The text of the Create Pit spell says it creates an "extra-dimensional hole" and the rules on extra-dimensional spaces say that such spaces are not part of any dimension. (Here we must assume "dimension" is a synonym for "plane", which seems reasonable.)
If that's the case, teleporting out of a pit spell is travel between planes. The text of greater teleport specifically forbids this, but dimension door does not. The magic section says "The most powerful [teleportation] spells can cross planar boundaries" so little guidance there.
However, if you rule that you can D.Door out of a pit, you must also be able to do it into a bag of holding or rope trick and that troubles me.
There is a downside to using a pit spell, though. They can drink potions and cast spells they wouldn't normally have a chance to use in combat while they're down there.
|
|
Another thing to remember with pits is that they are threats to the party members as well. It's important to remember that the spells affect the area around the pit and that enemies very easily could shove PCs into the pits.
This would be a very handy tactic to take the party spellcaster out of combat for a bit or negate a fighter-type to get at the squishies.
Your enemies don't need to be dumb ;-)
black tenticles is brutal vs casters and animals and low level mooks.
confusion forces you to attack the guy who hit you last turn, that means it only takes one of the targets of the spell to fail that 1/4 to start a chain reaction of suicide.
enervation is probibly the most brutal 4th level spell for knockin a target down to size.
resilient sphere is better as they cant climb out.
create pit is not the end all spell. its great for some targets but not all.
|
|
black tenticles is brutal vs casters and animals and low level mooks.
confusion forces you to attack the guy who hit you last turn, that means it only takes one of the targets of the spell to fail that 1/4 to start a chain reaction of suicide.
enervation is probibly the most brutal 4th level spell for knockin a target down to size.
resilient sphere is better as they cant climb out.
create pit is not the end all spell. its great for some targets but not all.
I would agree that these spells are more useful in more situations than the pit spells, especially enervation as it lowers saves and makes all your other spells more effective.
So a couple of pit spells can take a couple of non-fliers out of the fight.
Black Tentacles + Stinking Cloud/Sirocco can take a small army out of the fight.
2 Confusions can make a small army fight itself.
1 Wall of Force can neatly bisect an enemy party.
The pit spells are nice, but they're not overpowered.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Why would rolls of pure 20 help? Natural 20s are not auto successes on skill checks like climb
Most people don't realize you can't critical or fumble on skill checks, and even the people I know who are aware of that, houserule it so that skill checks work like all the other rolls.
|
| 6 people marked this as a favorite. |
The pit spells are indeed powerful, and when I first saw them as a DM i was worried. Now after 2+ years of usage by my players in RotRL I've found that they are probably more useful on lower levels, and their utility begins to diminish as foes get larger, stronger, or have alternate means of locomotion.
Also what most people forget about the pit spells is that escaping is a CLIMB check. If you read the climb skill "Climbing a corner where you can brace against perpendicular walls" reduces the climb DC by 5, and "Climbing a chimney (artificial or natural) or other location where you can brace against two opposite walls" reduces the climb DC by 10.
So yes your large monster can fall in a 10' by 10' pit, but his climb DC to get out is reduced by 10, since it can touch opposite walls. For medium creatures in a 10 by 10 pit, they can brace in a corner and climb up there, reducing the DC by 5. My monsters with decent strength also use the accelerated climbing clause " You try to climb more quickly than normal. By accepting a –5 penalty, you can move half your speed (instead of one-quarter your speed)". Sure they are knocked out of the fight for a turn or two, but that just delays them for a bit while their allies chew on the PC's
Or I just have another monstrous ally toss in a rope, pole, handy tree, or whatever to provide an easily climbable surface out of the pit. Yes Pits are powerful, but I don't think I'd call them overpowered.
If characters and villains know they're likely to come up against these spells there are many methods available to counter them.
The first and most obvious, is to put points in to climb (it's a useful skill anyway). The next is to have another method of getting out of the pit, a rope and grappling hook cant hurt at lower levels, a Climber's kit cant hurt either.
A Scroll of Spider Climb is 150gp, a Potion of Spider Climb is 300gp, a Ring of Climbing is 2500 gp, a Wand of Spider Climb is 4500gp, Slippers of Spider Climbing are 4800gp, or a Cloak of Arachnida for 14000gp. A scroll of Fly is 375gp, a potion of Fly is 750gp, there's wands, and permanent items that grant fly as well.
A character that has Use Magic Device has more options obviously, but potions? 300gp potions? Anyone can use those.
There's also dispel magic.
On the flip side, for creatures, the characters are expending resources to defeat their opponents. How the characters defeating the creatures shouldn't matter so much unless its the only spell they ever cast.
Banning these very useful spells is only coddling both the GM and the Characters. Obviously it's your game, but there are a variety of ways to counter these spells. Hold person is a lower level spell that has a pretty decent chance of getting most melee types, Resilient sphere, as mentioned, does a better job of dividing a party as mentioned above.
There's no way the pit spells are overpowered.
Design Manager
|
So while I've got all of you Creat Pit experts here, quick question:
If someone casts a Resilient Sphere, then one of the Create Pit spells directly beneath the creature trapped in said sphere, does the Sphere fall into the space, or is it (the sphere) fixed in place? I actually had this come up in our campaign and wasn't certain how to adjudicate it.
So while I've got all of you Creat Pit experts here, quick question:
If someone casts a Resilient Sphere, then one of the Create Pit spells directly beneath the creature trapped in said sphere, does the Sphere fall into the space, or is it (the sphere) fixed in place? I actually had this come up in our campaign and wasn't certain how to adjudicate it.
My guess is that the sphere wouldn't move. If you cast a Resilient Sphere on a flying creature, it wouldn't knock them to the ground would it? Imagine not, so if the ground falls out from under it, shouldn't matter.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Pit spells : highly useless in too many situations. Say like fighting underwater or in the air. yes, it is nice against fighters...*yawn*
As for porting out: as long as one side is open to "reality", they are not a sealed extra-dimensional pocket, but an extra-dimensional extension of reality so you can port out that way. Creative "reading" against the RAI does not change that
As for truly nasty 4th level spells.... well check out "Rain of Frogs" nuff said. Or 3rd level stuff like Deep Slumber
|
|
A couple of things:
We are also thinking of banning them, because:
a) I don't know which quests you guys are playing, but in Serpent skull book 3, there's absolutely nobody that can easily* avoid a DC 19 or 20 REF save, even the bosses. So imagine the other minions.
* (What we feel as an easy save situation is a modifier that gives you chances of succes of 50% or higher, which means in this cas, against that wizard, that you would need REF 10 or more. We don't see that a lot in this book.)
Uh...I just looked through this and almost every single creature in this is either:
1. CR 5 or below (which is to say, a minion type, that a good spell should work to take out).
2. Capable of getting out somehow (flight, Dispel Magic, Climb Speed, Gaseous Form, etc.)
3. Huge or larger
4. Has a +10 or higher (often much higher) Reflex Save.
There are only three exceptions to this (a Cleric, an Oracle, and a Fighter) and one of them is in an environment where you can't cast the spell. That's in a book with several dozen listed enemies, mind you.
That's a really small subset of enemies, and in all cases those who are supposed to be weak vs. Reflex saves. Maybe your villains have just been rolling poorly?
b) Once they're in the pit, nobody that doesn't fly IN THE WHOLE ADVENTURE can succeed Climb DCs of 30 and 35 on top of that. This requires four rolls of pure 20 in successive rounds. I'm not an odds maker, but isn't that a 1 in 160,000 chance to succeed?
This part's true. The non-minion ones have other ways to get out, though, for the most part.
c) Correct me if I'm wrong, but a large creature could fall in a 10X10 pit if a medium one can fall into a 5X5 trap, no? So it now takes a Huge or bigger creature to avoid this.
True as well, but not vastly relevant.
Finally, where's the rule regarding the impossibility of using dimension door or teleport in an extradimensional space? And, as I don't have the wording in front of me, does it say in the spell description that it is such a space that is created?
General extra-dimensional spaces rule.
Except they are in an extra dimesnional space not the paper. Folding the paper has no effect.
but the entrence to the pit in on the paper, and can be folded.
|
|
on the other hand... there is a short window of time where those spells are super powerful. for 2 or 3 levels they are murder but after that pitspells generally become useless as most players have some form of flight, jump, dimensional door, super jump skills or some other method of negating the pit spells.
here is why pit spells are amazing even at level 10+
pit spells are extradimentional spaces, means no teleport out, no dimention door, and no mundane means of making the dc40 jump check to jump the 30 feet out of the door. now if you quicken a pit spell, then standard action stonwall on top of it, that character is done. dismiss the spell then splat DEAD! i love pit spells when i play my caster characters.
Interesting idea, bit I don't think it is RAW.
Looking the rules about extradimensional spaces only Rope trick say than spell can't pass through the dimensional interface.
Most people that I know will allow dimension door in the direction of the opening above the pit.
Then Wall of stone: This spell creates a wall of rock that merges into adjoining rock surfaces. ...The wall created need not be vertical, nor rest upon any firm foundation; however, it must merge with and be solidly supported by existing stone. It can be used to bridge a chasm, for instance, or as a ramp.. As the sides of the pit aren't stone or any other thing (they are the entry point of a extradimensional space) you can't anchor the WoS to them, so you need to anchor it to something that is higher than the pit and made of stone. Thanks to the sloping edges of the pit you need to cover a 20'*20' area, so, as you produce a 5'*5' square every level you need to be 16th level to cover the pit and then you need to have some stone adjacent to the pit to anchor the WoS. You can halve the wall thickness to double its area, but then it is even more fragile.
Third, create pit don't have a D in his duration, so it is not dismissable.
Fourth, a WoS can be breached with a single strength check, so no automatic death, the target of the spell can try his check to breach it.
Fifth, the Pit spell don't end instantly, "When the duration of the spell ends, creatures within the hole rise up with the bottom of the pit until they are standing on the surface over the course of a single round." so the entrapped creature has 1 full round to try to break through the wall. With hardness 0 and 15 hp per inch of thickness one section of a wall cast by a 16th level caster has 60 hp.
Seeing all the above, it is not a deadly spell combo.
|
|
now if you really want to break create pit what you do is:
you lay down 20x20 foot sheets of parchment.
cast create pit on it.
bull rush target into pit.
fold up paper, and put in bag of holding/haversack/effecient quiver/ fire/ demiplane/ ect...
i was just talking to a friend about this discussion and he showed me the stupidity of how you can make this a game ender. mind you im not saying this spell is broken, just that it CAN be broken if you let your players do it.
And when the spell end you get a angry enemy in you "bag of holding/haversack/effecient quiver/ fire/ demiplane/ ect...".
The extradimansional space is inaccessible as long as it exist inside another extradimensional space, but when the spell end the pit content is there 8and a sheet of paper has 0 hardness and 1 hp).Then there is another doubtful assumption: that the pit is part of the items on which you cast it. I see nothing in the spell description stating that if you cast it on a sheet of paper and then you move the paper you will move the pit location.
Creative but doubtful.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
My experience with the pit spells is that, much like any of the other good spells, they're exactly as powerful as their application.
- Useless when used in the wrong situation.
Like on a creature who is ethereal, capable of flight (as every spellcaster above level 7 should be), huge, has a climb speed, was prepared for pit shenanigans, etc.
- Good when used reasonably well.
Like when you aim it an enemy with a low reflex save, no way to escape, and who takes lethal damage (really only likely with the 4th level pit or higher). Of course, Charm Monster can end an entire fight before it starts with one failed save, as can any number of other mid-level spells.
- Great when applied just right.
Like when you can take out multiple brutes who made the mistake of standing in a small clump and have no way to escape.
- Broken when the GM interprets the rules badly.