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I see a dearth of full casters in general, I'm not sure why. I can only think of one occasion where we've had two at the same table.
Honestly, I've found it varies from area to area and has a lot to do with what the regulars like playing. For example - over in Philly, if you want to play high level with us, you might find that we have a dearth of "normal" characters. We had a VC come up to Philly to run a high level game for us and he got a table with a masochistic gnome summoner, an arcane trickster who can NEVER BE SEEN, a debuffing, quasit-summoning, all-in-all creepy guy witch and a pompous a%!*%@$ of a counterspelling sorcerer. We owned the mod, but I'm pretty sure we made his head explode. Especially after being reminded for the umpteenth time that he could not see the arcane trickster.
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I've seen lots of clerics and healers. Last time I played there was a bard, a life oracle, an evagelist cleric, and a witch all at the same table. Lots of healing to be had.
The time before that, I think there were two clerics at the table.
These were new people to pfs by in large, so maybe that has something to do with it.
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Other than my first character, all my characters can offer some kind of healing to others in the party, be it infernal healing or being able to use a wand of cure light wounds. One of my latest two characters is a dwarven cleric of Torag.
Nathan Meyers
NYC Player/GM
Sounds like me. My first PFS char is a barbarian, but since then, I've got two sorcerers (with wands of infernal healing - N and CN alignments), two clerics (both good aligned, so positive channelers), and two bards with CLW wands (one normal bard and one rogue headed towards Halfling Opportunist who only dipped a level of bard for the dervishy goodness of the Dawnflower Dervish archetype).
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I beleave the only class I have not seen any PCs of is Samurai...
anyone actually seen one of these?
I played Quest for Perfection III with two samurai and my Rahadoumi cavalier.
On topic, my Rahadoumi cavalier has Godless Healing x2, is Order of the Tome and has the Rahadoumi Disbeliever trait. We don't need no stinkin' clerics!
For those who played Living Greyhawk; clerics are the new rogues.
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...For those who played Living Greyhawk; clerics are the new rogues.I do not understand this. I played LG (a lot!) from year 2 to the end, but I don't recognize what you are refering to...
Depends on where you were in Greyhawk. In Dyvers, rogues were a dime a dozen.
BOT: Just about every group I run/play in has a healer of some type. Mostly Cleric/Oracle builds with the occasional wand wielding healer with Infernal Healing/CLW.
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The only thing I dislike about clerics is that they need wisdom AND charisma, where as most other caster classes are about one stat.
Sorc and Oracle: Cha
Wizard and witch: Int
Druid, if you want to be a pure caster: Wis
Also, the charisma thing makes dwarves not optimized for it, so it makes me sad, because dwarves are my favorite race.
That being said, I have two clerics, a retired cleric of Irori who was pure caster--all buffs and healing, with all the "remove" spells, too; and a new level 2 of Caiden Calien, who is a dwarf with an 8 or 6 charisma (just woke up and can't be bothered to look it up) and can never channel energy, much to the hate of my peers. She's a "battle cleric" who tends to be a second liner melee character or tank who wades through enemies to heal people only in emergencies.
Honestly, if the charisma requirement was nulled, I'd never play anything else. So instead, I play chirugeon alchemists and witches most. I'm not a fan of oracles. I want domains, not curses!
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Every player should have one cleric character in their stable it is good table manners
That said every PFS player should also expect to provide for their own healing as well even if it is the form of a wand of CLW that can be handed to any of the following:
Ranger/
Paladin/
Cleric/
Oracle/
Witch/
Inquisitor/
Bard/
Sorcerer with UMD
Or at the very least carry potions
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Clerics are not as fun as many of the other classes in PFS. Firstly, there are very few difficult fights where the brute force healing of the cleric is necessary. Additionally, clerics that try to mix in fighting and wear armor are very immobile, and cleric that go for int and do no fighting are just healbots. The MAD nature of a well-balanced cleric is not supported well in PFS. Just my opinion. Has anyone come up with a work around for this?
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Clerics are not as fun as many of the other classes in PFS. Firstly, there are very few difficult fights where the brute force healing of the cleric is necessary. Additionally, clerics that try to mix in fighting and wear armor are very immobile, and cleric that go for int and do no fighting are just healbots. The MAD nature of a well-balanced cleric is not supported well in PFS. Just my opinion. Has anyone come up with a work around for this?
I don't know what you mean by MAD nature.
as to clerics that try to mix in fighting and wear armor being immobile...
I have two clerics that use full plate and tower shield. HEAVY AC. like AC25 at 2nd or 3rd level and just going up from there. Each has a move of 30 feet, until he throws Longstrider (duration is hours), so each has a move of 40 feet. Oh, and "Agile Feet" gets them past difficult terrain, so often they move 40' when the rest of the party is stuck at 15', and the barbarians are at 20' moves. And the 3rd level domain spell is Fly... so at 5th level they get fly. And at 8th level they get Dimentional Hop which lets them Dim Door as a move action ... Clerics can easily out move any other PC (except maybe Monks).
Just depends on the build.
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Clerics are not as fun as many of the other classes in PFS. Firstly, there are very few difficult fights where the brute force healing of the cleric is necessary. Additionally, clerics that try to mix in fighting and wear armor are very immobile, and cleric that go for int and do no fighting are just healbots. The MAD nature of a well-balanced cleric is not supported well in PFS. Just my opinion. Has anyone come up with a work around for this?Yes, wear a mithril breastplate, cast freedom of movement, cast fireballs, ectoplasmic fireballs, and empowered fireballs. When subtlety is needed, use intinsified burning hands, walls of fire, produce flames, or break out the selective meta-magic rod for the fireballs. No MAD problems whatsoever. Wisdom is king and con doesn't hurt.
As a disclaimer, my cleric is a gnome pyromaniac theologian with the fire domain. YMMV
yeah, and it's amazing how many fights go poof to a well rolled dismissal
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Kimera, no, you really don't need to be a healbot as a cleric.
Let's take your example group of druid, bard, and oracle together without a cleric. If they've all got healing spells, then they can sort of rotate healing duties as needed and convenient. No one player gets stuck being the healbot and not doing anything in battle other than healing. Why would you need a healbot cleric with them?
In my local PFS group, the only player other than myself with a cleric is a negative channeler. She's primarily focused on magical offense in her spells, too. When I'm not playing a cleric, she's the only one around, yet we do just fine with her casting occasional healing spells, and other people playing druids, paladins, etc providing some healing, or people just bringing their own healing potions.
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I don't know what you mean by MAD nature.
Multiple Attribute Dependency.
Barbarians just need Strength to be effective, with maybe some Con and Dex thrown in. Clerics need Wisdom, Charisma, Con and probably Strength or Dex. It's harder to build an effective cleric because you have to spread your build points around more.
as to clerics that try to mix in fighting and wear armor being immobile...
I have two clerics that use full plate and tower shield. HEAVY AC. like AC25 at 2nd or 3rd level and just going up from there. Each has a move of 30 feet, ...
How do you get 30 ft movement in full plate? Is there a domain or feat I'm missing?
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I don't know what you mean by MAD nature.
Multiple Attribute Dependency.
Barbarians just need Strength to be effective, with maybe some Con and Dex thrown in. Clerics need Wisdom, Charisma, Con and probably Strength or Dex. It's harder to build an effective cleric because you have to spread your build points around more.
How do you get 30 ft movement in full plate? Is there a domain or feat I'm missing?
as to clerics that try to mix in fighting and wear armor being immobile...
I have two clerics that use full plate and tower shield. HEAVY AC. like AC25 at 2nd or 3rd level and just going up from there. Each has a move of 30 feet, ...
Travel domain gives +10' move, so my Dwarf cleric (+2 Wis) gets a 30' move uneffected by armor or load. The Longstrider is his Domain spell, but it lasts an hour per level... so, most combats see my PC with a 40' move.
The only Attribute Dependency I can see for my guys is Wis... the rest go like this.
Str - load does effect movement
Con - want to keep it up to 10, but I almost never give it more than 12.
Dex - Don't want it above 12, as it's not as useful in heavy armor
Int - Not all that needed, this is the stat I often dump for clerics (and HATE the lack of skill points)
Cha - Nice to have as I need it for Channeling, but you can build around it and Dwarves aren't great here anyway.
Basicly, it looks like he has less MAD than many other classes...
Click on my guys name above and review him if you like - I think he's only a little out of date.
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Travel domain gives +10' move,
Yep. I looked right past it. I *thought* travel domain gave increased movement!
so my Dwarf cleric (+2 Wis) gets a 30' move uneffected by armor or load. The Longstrider is his Domain spell, but it lasts an hour per level... so, most combats see my PC with a 40' move.
The only Attribute Dependency I can see for my guys is Wis...
The reference to the class being MAD was not addressed to your build in particular, but to the class in general (and note I was explaining the acronym). Clerics are only slightly MAD. Monks and Paladins are much more so.
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A major difference between PF and 4E Clerics is that most of the time, the Cleric does something offensive AND gets a little healing too. In 4E, everyone has a way to "heal" themselves, and the Cleric can both actually heal and grant people the chance to use their healing ability outside of their turns or whatever. An example power is something like ray of light, ranged touch that deals 1d8+Wis Mod, and on a hit, an ally within 20ft heals 2+your Wis mod HP. It negates both the problems with healing in combat and the tendancy for the healer to be not fun. I hated 4E, but Clerics was the one thing they got really, really right.
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Travel domain gives +10' move, so my Dwarf cleric (+2 Wis) gets a 30' move uneffected by armor or load. The Longstrider is his Domain spell, but it lasts an hour per level... so, most combats see my PC with a 40' move.
The only Attribute Dependency I can see for my guys is Wis... the rest go like this.
Str - load does effect movement
Con - want to keep it up to 10, but I almost never give it more than 12.
Dex - Don't want it above 12, as it's not as useful in heavy armor
Int - Not all that needed, this is the stat I often dump for clerics (and HATE the lack of skill points)
Cha - Nice to have as I need it for Channeling, but you can build around it and Dwarves aren't great here anyway.
Basicly, it looks like he has less MAD than many other classes...Click on my guys name above and review him if you like - I think he's only a little out of date.
Don't Get me wrong your build is super optimized and looks nice for MinMaxing, but I do have some questions
How do you get away with a 10/12 con? an Empowered/Maximized FireBall would wreck you. SR 15 only gets so Far with CR 10 monstersAnd how do you have any PP? You get 1 skill point per level ESP since you have a treasure hunting faction.
What is your Touch AC?
Don't ever play him in the Tomb of the Iron Medusa....
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In my local PFS group, the only player other than myself with a cleric is a negative channeler. She's primarily focused on magical offense in her spells, too. When I'm not playing a cleric, she's the only one around, yet we do just fine with her casting occasional healing spells, and other people playing druids, paladins, etc providing some healing, or people just bringing their own healing potions.
The group Fromper is talking about was(is) an interesting case. The Cleric (of Pharasma) got tired of playing the "traditional" healbot role in the group and it was a major point of dissatisfaction with the game for her. We had to go through a period of adjustment where we encouraged everyone to prepare and be responsible for their own healing (during combat). After combat, she is fine with hitting people with the CLW happy stick. In our case, as a group, we listened to and adjusted to help a player have more fun.
One of the things I am most happy with our group was having the ability to transition away from having a "dedicated healbot" (aka healing handmaiden) so that a player could enjoy their character more.
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Clerics are not MAD.
You only need high Wisdom if casting offensive spells and need the high DCs, but if that's your schtick, you're SAD, as you only need a little Cha to Channel fine and no more Con or Dex than other people under fire (namely, most everybody).
If you're melee, you only need Wis & Str, and your Wis can be lower, like 15-16, to get your Str up while still getting your highest level spell bonus (with stat allotment & items). Buffs & Protective spells can make up the difference in h.p. and give you the best AC in the party. Add certain domains & subdomains (like Plant-Growth or Strength-Ferocity) and you'll hit hard too.
And still have spells left for utility/faction missions.
Clerics are effective IMO, and I avoid them because they make the game too easy. (Much like I avoid Barbarian/Alchemists)
I think the problem with Clerics is they're clerics.
"I'll be a Wizard!"
"I'll be a Warrior!"
"I'll be a Priest!"
(silence)
"What? Priests are cool!"
(silence)
Which is why they're in so many fantasy stories...oh, wait, they aren't.
The default archetype for cleric is dull at best.
Make it "Warpriest of Shakur" or "Pelorian Sun Guardian" and it's cool, but the variety of Clerics, and the mechanics & concepts to make them cool or effective are not obvious from the word "Cleric", the spell list, or from the mythos around "Priests" in our world (which is quite tainted).
Add that warriors are strong/athletic, scoundrels are cunning/dextrous, and wizards are brilliant/flashy and then compare to the fact clerics are faithful/wise and clerics' allure pales.
So why aren't there more Clerics?
Bad PR.
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...snipping most of my post....
Click on my guys name above and review him if you like - I think he's only a little out of date.
Don't Get me wrong your build is super optimized and looks nice for MinMaxing, but I do have some questions
How do you get away with a 10/12 con? an Empowered/Maximized FireBall would wreck you. SR 15 only gets so Far with CR 10 monsters
And how do you have any PP? You get 1 skill point per level ESP since you have a treasure hunting faction.
What is your Touch AC?
Don't ever play him in the Tomb of the Iron Medusa....
LOL! goodness - where do I start?
How do you get away with a 10/12 con?
I normally run with Cons of 10 with all my characters - Giamo is a bit odd with as much as a 12. Even with my Melee guys I rely more on not getting hit. The only ones with Cons above that are the only PCs I have had die... (in PFS or LG, with 14+ LG characters up thru 10th level, and 8+ PFS ones now), in ah... 12 years play? something like that. I actually worry more about deep water than I do an Empowered/Maximized FireBalls. But let's see. CL15 (to get off a 8th level spell) would be 15d6, Maximixed would be 90 HP... Maximized would add 1/2 of 15d6 so an average of 52.5 move for 142.5 HP. Yep. that would kill my PC. Esp. if I was running with Shield Other up to take half the damage from the Tank like I normally do. and the 15th level caster will get thru his SR on a roll of 1, so no help there. Guess I'll just have to rely on not being there when the fireball goes off.
And how do you have any PP?
ah... I get my PP from finishing faction missions? Doesn't everyone? And I haven't missed many with Giamo... Luck I guess?
What is your Touch AC?
not real good (LOL!)- esp. when you compare it with my Flat Footed AC (over 25, I don't recall off the top of my head, it does cause the judge to pause when he gets my by surprize and finds that a high roll misses). And my CMB and CMD is bad too. For someone that expects to be in the monsters face like Giamo normally is. I do prep Instant Armor for when I have to fight things with incorporal touch attacks which helps.
hope that helps! (kind of like sharing pictures of my kids, talking about my PCs!)
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Domain powers FTW.
Clerics are so much fun and with subdomains the combinations are nearly limitless (even going with the established pantheon). MAD? I need wis and... one other stat. Strength: forget channeling I have a hammer for undead! Dexterity: I provoke from the giant to heal the fighter, miss. Etc.
I have one PFS, which is 50% of my PFS characters :)
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I didn't mean to start flame wars over builds. I really like the idea of a travel domain dwarf cleric, but that is a specific build and not a general fix.
The best I could come up with to have a "balanced" cleric was 14STR 10DEX 14CON 10INT 16WIS 14CHA. He's a human cleric of Torag and usually has to pop off a bull's strength to get anywhere in melee. Heavy armor proficiency makes him pretty durable in combat, but the lack of mobility sucks bad.
Oh, and trying to get along in PFS with 3 skill points sucks :)
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My Cleric is lvl 11.2 waiting for one more adventure before applying GM credit for Eyes of the Ten to him.
He is very much a caster and is completely useless in melee except for high ac and the ability to flank.
He spent most of his career completely immobile until around lvl 9 when he got a flying carpet.
He plays a lot like a wizard. Good buff spells, assortment of battlefield control/disabling spells but can also channel (excluding bad guys) as a move action, and remove conditions outside of combat with a giant scroll collection.
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My cleric just hit 12 at PaizoCon and I was one of 2 high level clerics in our massive local PFS group. She's slightly minmaxed but even with that i have 11 channels per day and with a phylactery of positive channeling and quick channel, that's a lot of healing being pumped out.
I went cloistered cleric too, which kind of hurts, but lets me be the knowledge monkey when there's no witches or wizards at the table. So I'm not just there to look pretty and present my holy symbol.
Yes, I had to give being in melee but she's only died twice and once for less than 6 seconds, so it's a pretty nice trade off.
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RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
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On the subject of no clerics or clerics being "bad"
I saw a great gnome/halfling Varisian cleric (Crystal, I'm looking at you!) at Paizocon last weekend. She survived by staying back, using her domain powers to support, and healing when needed. Lots of buffs were had, and she saved several PCs from death in the couple of games that I GM'd for her.
I don't think clerics are ever going away, they might be "out" this season I mean, with those hawt new Oracles going around (pump that CHA!), who can blame people really? But true power never goes outta style. Clerics, druids, and wizards might get overshadowed in one area or another by a new class or two, but they aren't ever going to be a moot point.
As far as builds go -- anything is viable. Whether it's a 10 CON or a 16 CON, I'm still going to kill it with Baird's BBEG in Rats Part 1
:P
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Playing a healer is tough in society especially if you are more focused on healing then other things. You spend a lot of turns waiting for your team to get beat up. Playing something with healing abilities but isnt a dedicated healer, IE Inquisitor and Paladin, is usually the way to go.
Also I had a life oracle and cleric. Both died at lvl 2. So society has told me I cant play a healer.
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Clerics are great if you can break your compatriots of the impression you will be there to heal them and clean up their mistakes.
I mean sure, you can heal them, but it should come as a pleasant surprise, and not something they expect from the party's waterboy.
Channeling negative is a good way to make this clear, but it's not the only way.
