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I've always wanted to play a character who studies evolution and tries to thwart the gods' claims of creation. Recently I've been watching Richard Dawkins interviews and thought a wizard who based on him, with his neat-o accent, would be really fun.
I'm thinking of specializing in transmutation with genetics focused spells, but also divination for maybe playing a little paleontologist searching for fossils and what not.
I was wondering if anyone could give advice for either school specialty, spell selection, etc, or probably most important, how to handle magical situations with scientific reasoning and what to do in situations where trying to do hard science and magic at the same time becomes almost impossible. And any input on justifying evolutionary biology in the face of Sarenrae and all that.
I look forward to hearing from you!
Not an alchemist? :)
I love Richard Dawkins. Especially his reading of his hate mail. I wish he'd make a series of those.
What campaign setting are you playing him in?
Because some of them can be confirmed to have been divinely created.
Remember, many fantasy worlds have no atheists as the gods walk around slapping people around. In many worlds, the gods definitely exist and definitely created things.
This could be a bit of a monkey wrench in the character idea, unless you're totally willing to play a character who is wrong.
I like the concept, it's just really reliant on the campaign setting.
I think the entire concept of a transmutation wizard of all things trying to claim evolution in a fantasy game is unfortunately doomed.
You know, having listened to Dawkins, I think he would make a fantastic Cleric of Atheism...Perhaps even a mystic theurge? failing that, though, a wizard or alchemist would suit him best.
School specialisation would be divination - he is after knowledge after all. Let him go Loremaster PRC at the earliest opportunity.
had to wiki who you where talking about but yes i would say a wizard with trans/conger as his focus seams a good fit
Assuming that the creatures that live on your fantasy world are biologically similar to us, there is no reason to believe that evolution does not function. Just like the presence of genetic engineering means evolution "turns off." It just becomes one of the many forces that shape our biology.
An alchemist probably would be a good idea. I've never played one, they don't excite me, but I'll check them over.
@Fleshgrinder I take it you're talking about species of Golarion. Where can I read about the divine proof of the origin of species? THe idea for the character is that deities' claims are fabricated balogna so they can hold power.
I don't see how explaining goblins is anhy harder than explaining any other race with evolution, but owl bears are the product of gross species genetics are they not? The idea that an in depth understanding of both genetics and magic leads to mastering transmutation is the point. He understands the natural building blocks of life and can alter them magically and as with anything else in fantasy, the implications of magic on evolution have to be accounted for in his theories and could be vital to some stages of evolution.
Mystic Theurge...hmm, also worth looking into. I definitely wanted to go the divination route at the onset, but the abilities and spells don't pan out as scholarly as I'd expect a scientist, and I found overall they helped to augment more than they worked as the main school. But Loremaster completely slipped my mind.
Owlbears were created by wizards and have bred true per their pages. Many of the wacky creatures in the Beastiaries share that.
Also, a wizard could eventually commune with or travel the planes and talk to various immortal non-divine beings to get his answers.
Instead, consider Rahadoumi athiesm, which is actually more anti-theism. It's not that gods don't exist (as their existence is easy to verify with high level magics), but that they shouldn't exist.
Rather than not believing in their meddling (tough to sell when he's casting mortal power spells that can do the same), he believes that they shouldn't. By their hijacking of natural processes, they are insuring a dangerous lack of variation (all diversity coming from same divine sources makes all divine creations vulnerable to dangers that exploit that, regardless of the superficial diversity they've created), as well as robbing people of tools to understand their world independant of divine submission.
EDIT: I originally thought you were talking about denying magical influence on evolution, but looks like you were specifically only denying divine; that there's nothing the gods have done to warp the world that wizards couldn't do too. That's less controversial and interesting to me, just standard prideful wizard stuff. Also means my whole post was unrelated and useless, sorry for the misread.
@Fleshgrinder I take it you're talking about species of Golarion. Where can I read about the divine proof of the origin of species? THe idea for the character is that deities' claims are fabricated balogna so they can hold power.
I wasn't speaking of any world in particular. I was just pointing out that many fantasy worlds have confirmed, definite divine creation.
I am actually not very familiar with Golarion overall. I don't do published settings really.
So far as I am aware Golarian has no creation myth per se, although elements like the Azlanti and the Aboleths do have ancient history.
Owlbears were created by wizards and have bred true per their pages. Many of the wacky creatures in the Beastiaries share that.
Also, a wizard could eventually commune with or travel the planes and talk to various immortal non-divine beings to get his answers.Instead, consider Rahadoumi athiesm, which is actually more anti-theism. It's not that gods don't exist (as their existence is easy to verify with high level magics), but that they shouldn't exist.
Rather than not believing in their meddling (tough to sell when he's casting mortal power spells that can do the same), he believes that they shouldn't. By their hijacking of natural processes, they are insuring a dangerous lack of variation (all diversity coming from same divine sources makes all divine creations vulnerable to dangers that exploit that, regardless of the superficial diversity they've created), as well as robbing people of tools to understand their world independant of divine submission.
EDIT: I originally thought you were talking about denying magical influence on evolution, but looks like you were specifically only denying divine; that there's nothing the gods have done to warp the world that wizards couldn't do too. That's less controversial and interesting to me, just standard prideful wizard stuff. Also means my whole post was unrelated and useless, sorry for the misread.
I don't see the point in denying magical influence on evolution when owl bears do exist, especially if they can breed. It's more scientific to approach magic as a force of the universe, like radiation, which can also alter your genetics, but also make you sterile, which magic seemingly does not.
But I definitely wouldn't call your post useless. The bit about divine submission is key. A big part of the character would be the spreading of knowledge to reduce the reliance on divine explanations or asking for divine interference (even if it is actually possible). Perhaps he would shun divine healing. He's not attempting to rob the divine of their power and say they're no better than wizards, but asserting that they are not the explanation for our existence as they require their own explanation. This differs form the real world because an explanation would need to exist to explain both deities and mortals. His search is for that answer. I would hope to play him in a campaign that involves both galactic and planar travel.
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Rather than deny creation, reduce its 'specialness'. If any daft wizard can create new forms of life and forge new planes of existence, what does that make the gods? They're just giant pretenders!
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I don't see how explaining goblins is anhy harder than explaining any other race with evolution, but owl bears are the product of gross species genetics are they not? The idea that an in depth understanding of both genetics and magic leads to mastering transmutation is the point. He understands the natural building blocks of life and can alter them magically and as with anything else in fantasy, the implications of magic on evolution have to be accounted for in his theories and could be vital to some stages of evolution.
Almost every single creature on Golarion has a creation myth that involves a diety and they are all true insofar as the game is concerned. Goblins sprang forth from the human blood shed by barghests that in turn are the children of a god/demon lamashtu. By all means explain that without involving a god or supernatural power. They sprang into existence fully formed as they currently exist. No evolution took place.
The owlbear has nothing to do with a mage understanding biology because the owlbear is not biologically possible. The owlbear is the creation of an insane wizard who used supernatural magic to create a new creature from a mammal and a bird. again the owlbear did not evolve it was created.
Djinn? how did they evolve?
Having read your post it seems to me that you are trying awefully hard to force something into game that simply does not fit. In a world where the gods are known to be a fact you want to play a athiest... Think about how silly that actually is.
What will your characters reaction be when he uses divinition and a god contacts him and tells him bluntly that he is wrong?
I don't see how explaining goblins is anhy harder than explaining any other race with evolution, but owl bears are the product of gross species genetics are they not? The idea that an in depth understanding of both genetics and magic leads to mastering transmutation is the point. He understands the natural building blocks of life and can alter them magically and as with anything else in fantasy, the implications of magic on evolution have to be accounted for in his theories and could be vital to some stages of evolution.
Almost every single creature on Golarion has a creation myth that involves a diety and they are all true insofar as the game is concerned. Goblins sprang forth from the human blood shed by barghests that in turn are the children of a god/demon lamashtu. By all means explain that without involving a god or supernatural power. They sprang into existence fully formed as they currently exist. No evolution took place.
The owlbear has nothing to do with a mage understanding biology because the owlbear is not biologically possible. The owlbear is the creation of an insane wizard who used supernatural magic to create a new creature from a mammal and a bird. again the owlbear did not evolve it was created.
Djinn? how did they evolve?
Having read your post it seems to me that you are trying awefully hard to force something into game that simply does not fit. In a world where the gods are known to be a fact you want to play a athiest... Think about how silly that actually is.
What will your characters reaction be when he uses divinition and a god contacts him and tells him bluntly that he is wrong?
The response would be that it's called a creation myth and not a creation fact for a reason. Are you asking how to explain a deity creating a race without saying a deity created a race? It sounds like you've begged the question.
We have genetically engineered plants that are functionally no different than creating an owl bear, just much simpler, magic solves that technological gap.
Djinn? Why, I'd say they evolved through a process of natural selection. Why are they a special case? Evolution doesn't bar fantastic things evolving in a world where those things are known to exist.
The iconic wizard of Golarion, Ezren, IS an atheist. Not in the same way as what I'm trying to portray, but that's part of the reason. James Jacobs views of how atheism would work in Golarion need a lot of work, he'd be the first to admit it, and I'm interested in exploring it.
The response would be, "Where's the evidence? Prove your claim." and also, "Which God created you then? And if you're created, are you truly a God?"
I forget whether it was mentioned in the books, but James Jacobs has pretty much all but stated that both divine creation and evolution occurs in Golarion.
Now that I think about it I think the history section of the ISG implies that the gods created the universe, mortal life came about via evolutionary processes, and when the gods saw these early forms of life took interest and action in the generation of new and specific forms of it.
So basically: The gods created the fish bowl, saw gunk growing on the bottom, and then started engineering and teaching the gunk.
in my opinion vivisectionsit beastmorph alchemist is the best choice.
You can take creatures apart and check how different things work on yourself
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I think my biggest problem with atheism on golarion and some of the nations, specifically Razmiran and Rahadoum is that in the context of the world they make no sense (atheism and Rahadoum) or would be just too easy to unveil as a hoax (Razmiran).
To the first point, Rahadoum and why would any nation give up one of the most powerful power sources at its disposal? the religious war excuse does not hold water when one considers that Rahadoum is a monster haunted wasteland and that divine casters and healers would be in a very high demand. We are somehow also asked to believe that a force of melee and arcane casters could somehow overwhelm a force of religious zealots, divine casters, AND wizards. Arcane casters are no less religious than anyone else in the setting. The people of Rahadoum can see that divine power works and could help them but choose not to use it because of what? pride? pure unabased stupidity?
That is no different than people IRL who do not believe in dinosaurs or argue the age of the earth. It is silly and again makes no sense when the evidence is observed, further it denies human nature which would be to use what ever power possible to strengthen the position of their family society and nation. People believe in religion on earth with no actual proof and you think people would turn their back on religion in a fantasy game where there is absolute proof and the gods actually intervene to help their adherants? That is simply unbelievable. Basically it is like a nation of reverse amish people which as we know could not exist in the modern world were it not for the protection provided by the nation that uses electricity and technology.
Who protects Rahadoum from demon cult necromancers and what not? Who cures their diseases and heals the sick? Who makes supplication to the powers for good crops and calm seas? No one and the result is sand choked harbors and dangerous wildlands.
Razmiran, No priesthood claims those of another god are worshipping a non-entity without knowing or lying. They may claim that they are not following the best god but they do not claim that the other gods do not exist. why? because there are any number of spells that a moderate to high level cleric can use to find out beyond a doubt if the gods exist and if they are in fact gods. Why has no member of the other faiths used these spells to find out the truth about old man Razmir? Once the information is known they could just call him out as a false god and handle it.
What would the reaction of a priest of Serenrae or a paladin of Iomedae be to a person who denies the gods or their role in creation? would they be angry? Would they try to educate the misguided fool to the truth by showing the facts behind thier beliefs or would they simply just shake thier head and laugh.
in my opinion vivisectionsit beastmorph alchemist is the best choice.
You can take creatures apart and check how different things work on yourself
As a side question: So this archetype would be a good choice for a group of alchemists that control modified creatures, say some enhanced werewolves?
Stating the obvious, but maybe the Evolutionist summoner would fit this concept?
dang it, you beat me to it!
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"It is done. The gods of Chaos have all been destroyed."
"The lords of Law will reward you!"
"Not so -- my brother and I killed them, too, for good measure. Now mortals can make their own destinies."
--(possibly misquoted from) Micheal Moorcock, The King of the Swords
I think my biggest problem with atheism on golarion and some of the nations, specifically Razmiran and Rahadoum is that in the context of the world they make no sense (atheism and Rahadoum) or would be just too easy to unveil as a hoax (Razmiran).
There are entire nations in our world that deny that the planet is 4,500,000,000 years old, and insist all was made in seven days by divine power relatively recently, in spite of the overwhelming scientific evidence to the contrary, as you point out. It's not so much the devoutness of the population that assures this so much as the extent of the totalitarian control of the state and their insistence on maintaining a consistent approach and idealogical purity.
That a nation in Golarian, where gods can be proven to exist, should reject gods on the basis that they are in the balance of things a negative influence on humanity is perfectly understandable to me. That another nation should embrace a 'religion' that is false on the basis of 'worship or it's the bonfire' is even more understandable, as this basis has seen much use on our own world...
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That a nation in Golarian, where gods can be proven to exist, should reject gods on the basis that they are in the balance of things a negative influence on humanity is perfectly understandable to me.
And I have to call BS. That the people of Rahadoum gave up much and did not gain anything by turning thier backs on thier gods is a fact. Life is still hard there, possibly harder than it was with divine power, and the gods still have an affect on thier lives between the beasts of the wastelands, the plagues, and the choking of the bay. How exactly has Rahadoum been made improved by a lack of divine power?
It is perfectly understandable to you that humanity would turn thier back on power and truth?
Again, what did they gain? nothing.
That another nation should embrace a 'religion' that is false on the basis of 'worship or it's the bonfire' is even more understandable, as this basis has seen much use on our own world...
Except in Golarion the truth can be established beyond any doubt. In this world there is still doubt on quite a few points and thus religious still exists. In Golarion a high level paladin could roll in call the faith of Razmiran a hoax and no one would doubt him since Paladins do not lie about such things. A witness with th power to know the truth of the matter and whose testimony is beyond question if you will.
I can see such a character being part of the technic league, attempting to prove evolution over time with certain factors breeds new species and superior mutations, good for Numeria since all kinds of mutated critters can be easily found.
That a nation in Golarian, where gods can be proven to exist, should reject gods on the basis that they are in the balance of things a negative influence on humanity is perfectly understandable to me.And I have to call BS. That the people of Rahadoum gave up much and did not gain anything by turning thier backs on thier gods is a fact. Life is still hard there, possibly harder than it was with divine power, and the gods still have an affect on thier lives between the beasts of the wastelands, the plagues, and the choking of the bay. How exactly has Rahadoum been made improved by a lack of divine power?
It is perfectly understandable to you that humanity would turn thier back on power and truth?
Again, what did they gain? nothing.
That another nation should embrace a 'religion' that is false on the basis of 'worship or it's the bonfire' is even more understandable, as this basis has seen much use on our own world...Except in Golarion the truth can be established beyond any doubt. In this world there is still doubt on quite a few points and thus religious still exists. In Golarion a high level paladin could roll in call the faith of Razmiran a hoax and no one would doubt him since Paladins do not lie about such things. A witness with th power to know the truth of the matter and whose testimony is beyond question if you will.
Asking why a nation would give up a source of power when it goes against human nature can be answered by the real world example of nuclear disarmament. It is a power, but it is one many people and nations would love to expose from the world never to be seen again. ASking how a force without divine magic could beat one with it makes no more sense than asking how 300 spartans held off the persian empire. It seems crazy, but it isn't absurd to have happened.
If you proved to me today that God was real and granted me powers, I still wouldn't be interested in making a pact with what I consider a force of evil and selfishness for any amount of power. And I imagine the people of Rahadoum think much the same of the Golarion gods. We've cured our diseased and sick without divine casters in the real world, why can't Rahadoum?
I don't know enough about Razmiran to comment on it, but I don't doubt there are answers why the truth can't be immediately discovered.
As for the "fact" that Rahadoum gained nothing and lost much, there history says otherwise, and even if their life is harder, it is possible they continue out of pride, entire cultures have ceased to exist on earth out of pride. It's not turning their back on truth if they propose that it is in fact lies. And that is much like what people do here on earth about evolution and the big bang, the validity of the claims has little to do with their acceptance.
"While it may sound like a strange doctrine, the secular ways of the Kingdom of Man have provided centuries of peace and stability and few other nations can claim the same."
A few observations and thoughts:
1. It seems that the goal of the wizard is to make a statement that the gods did not create any of the races.
2. The Golarion sourcebooks already state that the gods DID have a hand in creation.
3. 1 and 2 do not mean that the wizard in question needs to believe the gods had a hand in creation, but it does not make it any less true. The player is free to play the character as he wishes.
4. The player might want to speak to the GM about whether the campaign world should be altered to make the wizard's claim true. If the GM wants to stay true to the Golarion setting, the GM would have to say no; if the GM is willing to alter the setting ('home-alter' it, if you will) to fit the character, making it like Golarion, but not strictly Golarion, that's cool too. However, this should be something established from the get-go to prevent conflict and frustration further down the track.
5. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Shelyn is kind and benevolent, but is not obliged to respond to everyone who demands that she proves her existence. Her clerics spread her message, and people choose to believe or not. That's the way the cookie crumbles.
6. Similarly, proving that creation of races can occur through method B is not proof that it did NOT occur through method A in the first place. Especially in a world where mortals can create golems and breathe life into homunculi, not to mention control the elements and literally create new worlds, the gap between mortals and deific figures is naturally narrowed, but it is prudent to remember that the fact that mortals can replicate an effect does not mean that the gods did not do it first, or do it in another way (first). Science/magical-demonstration and history are two separate disciples involved in discovering different types of truth.
7. Bringing the arguments to the effect that gods are the stuff of fantasy to a game that is by nature fantasy has the potential to be profoundly frustrating. I'm not saying don't do it, but recognition of this could prove helpful as you consider how you would play such a character.
A few observations and thoughts:
1. It seems that the goal of the wizard is to make a statement that the gods did not create any of the races.
2. The Golarion sourcebooks already state that the gods DID have a hand in creation.
3. 1 and 2 do not mean that the wizard in question needs to believe the gods had a hand in creation, but it does not make it any less true. The player is free to play the character as he wishes.
4. The player might want to speak to the GM about whether the campaign world should be altered to make the wizard's claim true. If the GM wants to stay true to the Golarion setting, the GM would have to say no; if the GM is willing to alter the setting ('home-alter' it, if you will) to fit the character, making it like Golarion, but not strictly Golarion, that's cool too. However, this should be something established from the get-go to prevent conflict and frustration further down the track.
5. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Shelyn is kind and benevolent, but is not obliged to respond to everyone who demands that she proves her existence. Her clerics spread her message, and people choose to believe or not. That's the way the cookie crumbles.
6. Similarly, proving that creation of races can occur through method B is not proof that it did NOT occur through method A in the first place. Especially in a world where mortals can create golems and breathe life into homunculi, not to mention control the elements and literally create new worlds, the gap between mortals and deific figures is naturally narrowed, but it is prudent to remember that the fact that mortals can replicate an effect does not mean that the gods did not do it first, or do it in another way (first). Science/magical-demonstration and history are two separate disciples involved in discovering different types of truth.
7. Bringing the arguments to the effect that gods are the stuff of fantasy to a game that is by nature fantasy has the potential to be profoundly frustrating. I'm not saying don't do...
Good points, and things I have thought about. I would love for whether or not the creation myths are true to be up int he air. I wouldn't want to know before starting, as finding out he was wrong al along would be a pretty important moment for the character and how he deals with it would be very interesting. I will say about point 5 though, that it depends on whom you put the burden of proof. Absence is evidence is evidence if there is other supporting evidence for the opposing claim.
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Asking why a nation would give up a source of power when it goes against human nature can be answered by the real world example of nuclear disarmament. It is a power, but it is one many people and nations would love to expose from the world never to be seen again.
Apples and oranges. comparing an inanimate piece of war tech to a sentient creator diety in context of a fantasy world is not a fair comparison at all. Other than the doctrine of mutually assured destruction which may or may not have prevented any number of major wars I can think of no real benefit to nukes.
The gods on the other hand offer numerous benefits and unlike nukes also are capable of communicating thier wishes and expectations in return for easily known and vastly useful powers.
ASking how a force without divine magic could beat one with it makes no more sense than asking how 300 spartans held off the persian empire. It seems crazy, but it isn't absurd to have happened.
The spartans were religious fanatics while the persians were slaves. I would say your example only proves my point. Also it is a matter of common sense that a army that has support medics and healers will do better than one that does not and not only because of the healing but also the moral boost to the soldiers who can expect to be saved if they are injured.
If you proved to me today that God was real and granted me powers, I still wouldn't be interested in making a pact with what I consider a force of evil and selfishness for any amount of power.
And this is the issue. You are attempting to justify something that makes no logical sense in a fantasy world with your own misguided real world bias. If divine magic did not exist in the campaign world I would have no issue with the believability of Rahadoum because they would have lost nothing by running a bunch of powerless priests out of the land. That is not the case however as divine magic is very real and very powerful on Golarion.
I seriously question that a rag tag band of secularists could ever have ran off the priests of searenra in the first place. picture that conversation if you will..
athiest " your goddess and this war is bad for our nation"
Priest of Searenrae "No, she is lawful and good and we have been involved in a war against Norgorber who is in fact a evil god."
Priest/assassin of Norborger in crowd makes mental not to kill atheist and his whole family.
Yeah... Thats more believable.
And I imagine the people of Rahadoum think much the same of the Golarion gods. We've cured our diseased and sick without divine casters in the real world, why can't Rahadoum?
If a doctor/priest could pray to a god and instantly cure a person of cancer or aids we would not have ever bothered with the tech. There would be no reason to research the technology and no economic gain either. Comparing cure disease to months of chemo or what have you does not support your argument. Obviously divine magic is better than real world technology.
I don't know enough about Razmiran to comment on it, but I don't doubt there are answers why the truth can't be immediately discovered.
I have not been able to figure what those answers are. Unless possibly Razmiran has an artifact of unknowable power in his possession.
As for the "fact" that Rahadoum gained nothing and lost much, there history says otherwise, and even if their life is harder, it is possible they continue out of pride, entire cultures have ceased to exist on earth out of pride.
My argument is that thier history makes no sense. Quoting this non-sense history as justification for its self also makes no sense.
It's not turning their back on truth if they propose that it is in fact lies. And that is much like what people do here on earth about evolution and the big bang, the validity of the claims has little to do with their acceptance.
It is turning your back on the truth when you know for a fact that it is the truth. The position of Rahadoum is that worshipping the gods causes too many problems except that can be shown to be absolutely false. Every other nation, excepting razmeran, has temples and gods and those nations for the most part are doing better than Rahadoum.
I also am not willing to guess why some people do not believe in evolution or the big bang theory any more than I can explain how believing in these two theory somehow disproves that there could have been a creator. The first view requires far too much ignorance for me and the latter far too much blind faith. as you opened this door it is important to point out that it was a man of faith (catholic) that started the big bang theory and that evolution of life as we understand it now does not at all disprove God. It may disprove what some bronze age desert dwelling herders wrote down 5000 years ago or so but that is it.
"While it may sound like a strange doctrine, the secular ways of the Kingdom of Man have provided centuries of peace and stability and few other nations can claim the same."
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No they have not. just reading the entry to Rahadoum in the book shows this last part to be false. Plagues, choking sands, supernatural funny business in the capital, underground religious groups, pirates, beasts prowling the wilderlands, ect, ect.
Dont you love whern the source material contradicts itself?
No more than when real world texts contradicts themselves.
On another point, there are numerous examples of places where Arcanists are unwelcome (I don't know about outright banned - Not in Golarion at any rate - but certainly restricted, maybe lynched by mobs) and nobody raises an eyebrow. This is because of bad histories with magic (Necromancy in Ustalav for example). Does it seem that far-fetched to imagine that a land that had suffered through theological clashes and upsets might make sure that it didn't suffer that way again. Agreed, Divine magic would make lives better (even if the People in charge, don't want to admit it), but is that any different from the exclusion of Arcane magic?
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No more than when real world texts contradicts themselves.
On another point, there are numerous examples of places where Arcanists are unwelcome (I don't know about outright banned - Not in Golarion at any rate - but certainly restricted, maybe lynched by mobs) and nobody raises an eyebrow. This is because of bad histories with magic (Necromancy in Ustalav for example). Does it seem that far-fetched to imagine that a land that had suffered through theological clashes and upsets might make sure that it didn't suffer that way again. Agreed, Divine magic would make lives better (even if the People in charge, don't want to admit it), but is that any different from the exclusion of Arcane magic?
One point I would bring up in relation to this being that in a fantasy setting with strong anti-arcanist bias such as the old world of warhammer it is the priests that often lead the anti-arcanist sentiment.
I think the difference between the two is that mages are by and large individualists who make thier own rules while priests represent a larger reality about the nature of the cosmos. When a wizard wonders into town the people have to wonder about what his or her motivations might be. When a priest of Iomedae visits a town the people will generally know what she is about.
As you said though there are stories of necromancers and lich and all number of evil mages doing horrid things to the locals as there are stories of evil priests. It is interesting to note that most of the truly evil religious groups are secretive and operate underground because most non-members of those evil faiths would not tolerate them anymore than they would any necromancer.
I ramble.
What I do not understand is that the Rahadoumi decided to ban all religion rather than side with the lawful good faith against the evil faith. again it makes no sense.
That a nation in Golarian, where gods can be proven to exist, should reject gods on the basis that they are in the balance of things a negative influence on humanity is perfectly understandable to me.And I have to call BS. That the people of Rahadoum gave up much and did not gain anything by turning thier backs on thier gods is a fact. Life is still hard there, possibly harder than it was with divine power, and the gods still have an affect on thier lives between the beasts of the wastelands, the plagues, and the choking of the bay. How exactly has Rahadoum been made improved by a lack of divine power?
It is perfectly understandable to you that humanity would turn thier back on power and truth?
Again, what did they gain? nothing.
A very reasonable contention, which falls short because people are not reasonable. Modern technology holds many similar advantages which entire communities in our world reject either in entirety, or partially by either rejecting some of technology (the Amish) or prohibiting it from swathes of the population (the Taliban).
What the Rhadoumi gained was peace of mind, purity of ideology and security - at least as they see it.
That another nation should embrace a 'religion' that is false on the basis of 'worship or it's the bonfire' is even more understandable, as this basis has seen much use on our own world...Except in Golarion the truth can be established beyond any doubt. In this world there is still doubt on quite a few points and thus religious still exists. In Golarion a high level paladin could roll in call the faith of Razmiran a hoax and no one would doubt him since Paladins do not lie about such things. A witness with th power to know the truth of the matter and whose testimony is beyond question if you will.
Dude, get real. The truth about the origins of the Earth and the existence of evolution can be established beyond any doubt complete with all the supporting hard evidence - and that does not stop people rejecting this if it does not tally with their view of how things should be.
Tell my why this is, and then you can tell me why it shouldn't be in Golarian. I regard Rahadoum as a theocracy (hey, maybe an anti-theocracy) which enforces it's rules with iron determination. Many people living there know it's flaws, but they are not going to speak out about it because that way lies death.
Tell my why this is, and then you can tell me why it shouldn't be in Golarian. I regard Rahadoum as a theocracy (hey, maybe an anti-theocracy) which enforces it's rules with iron determination. Many people living there know it's flaws, but they are not going to speak out about it because that way lies death.
The question then becomes "Why is Rahadoum listed as LN instead of LE." Especially when the ruling body is not above creating a crisis, going in to save the day, and then blaming it on a religious group.
That's the general alignment of the people, not the leadership.
That's the general alignment of the people, not the leadership.
Cheliax is listed as LE but it's the higher class that cavorts with the Devils.
Yes, but the lower classes of Cheliax are rife with informants willing to sell one another out for personal gain.
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but many paladins also come from Cheliax and at least a minority of hell knights are LG. There are Good noble houses and religion operating in Cheliax as well.
Dude, get real. The truth about the origins of the Earth and the existence of evolution can be established beyond any doubt complete with all the supporting hard evidence - and that does not stop people rejecting this if it does not tally with their view of how things should be.
Allow me to get real then sir, Although the vast majority of people accept darwinism and evolution the question of details is hardly put to rest and does not answer the biggest of boogymen which is "how did life start" and "what was before the universe?" ect. I have little time for dinosaur deniers or young earth theory which is what brought me into this thread as the OP is basically talking about making a fantasy version of a dinosaur denier. That said I also have little in common with people who accept our limited information about the universe as final or somehow a refutation of religion or faith. We have not answered all the questions, nothing is laid to rest and we do not have a T.O.E. I would rather not take this too much further but will say that the existence or lack of of God gods or any other supernatural creator has not been proven or disproven at all.
Tell my why this is, and then you can tell me why it shouldn't be in Golarian. I regard Rahadoum as a theocracy (hey, maybe an anti-theocracy) which enforces it's rules with iron determination. Many people living there know it's flaws, but they are not going to speak out about it because that way lies death.
In the real world, regardless of what you and I may wish, there is still room to argue the point of a supernatural creator while in Golarion it is beyond argument it is a fact. It is a fact that brings with it very real temporal advantages and disadvantages and no culture would ever lay down such a powerful weapon and tool while surrounded by nations that did not.
Also it is obvious that Rahadoum is evil as in the war between the LG goddess and the NE god a good or even nuetral nation would be best served to gang up on and defeat the known evil while an evil group will act to its own personal interests.
Thats before you take into account the rampant slavery and what not that goes on in Rahadoum. Slavery by difinition is evil.
I really appreciate your posts though, this has been a very interesting thread so far but as much as possible I will be avoiding talking overly much about the interaction of real world faiths, including atheism, to avoid turning this into a flame fest.
My interest is that a nation would refuse divine aid despite all the benefits that go with it. It makes no logical sense when you weigh risk verse reward.
but many paladins also come from Cheliax and at least a minority of hell knights are LG. There are Good noble houses and religion operating in Cheliax as well.
The alignment of the nation is the general alignment of the populace. There are always exceptions, and this does not refute my original statement.
Edit: Oh, and I think the devs and designers have agreed after some debate that there aren't any paladin hellknights; they originally conceived them but the way the hellknights developed as an order has kind of precluded paladins from within their ranks.
Dude, get real. The truth about the origins of the Earth and the existence of evolution can be established beyond any doubt complete with all the supporting hard evidence - and that does not stop people rejecting this if it does not tally with their view of how things should be.Allow me to get real then sir, Although the vast majority of people accept darwinism and evolution the question of details is hardly put to rest and does not answer the biggest of boogymen which is "how did life start" and "what was before the universe?" ect. I have little time for dinosaur deniers or young earth theory which is what brought me into this thread as the OP is basically talking about making a fantasy version of a dinosaur denier. That said I also have little in common with people who accept our limited information about the universe as final or somehow a refutation of religion or faith. We have not answered all the questions, nothing is laid to rest and we do not have a T.O.E. I would rather not take this too much further but will say that the existence or lack of of God gods or any other supernatural creator has not been proven or disproven at all.
Which has what, exactly, to do with my point that provable reality can be trumped with belief in the mind of the believer? My example from the real world are the Young Earthers, Creationists and the like, which you acknowledge exist and exist in great numbers.
I never said that there was no god, or that the scientific explanation was all-encompassing, I merely pointed out that provable elements of it that are accepted facts with (literally in some cases) mountains of evidence to back them up are rejected by people for whom the facts do not fit with their beliefs.
Tell my why this is, and then you can tell me why it shouldn't be in Golarian. I regard Rahadoum as a theocracy (hey, maybe an anti-theocracy) which enforces it's rules with iron determination. Many people living there know it's flaws, but they are not going to speak out about it because that way lies death.In the real world, regardless of what you and I may wish, there is still room to argue the point of a supernatural creator while in Golarion it is beyond argument it is a fact. It is a fact that brings with it very real temporal advantages and disadvantages and no culture would ever lay down such a powerful weapon and tool while surrounded by nations that did not.
Leaving out the existence or not of a divine being in our own reality, I must point out that Rahadoumi atheism is not a rejection of the existence of gods but a rejection of their worship. People can and do reject aspects or modern technology that are highly beneficial to their societies on the basis of 'moral purity' or some other aspect of their spiritual beliefs. I even cited two examples - the Taliban, who effectively removed all women from education and medical care, and the Amish, who reject all aspects of modern technology not pertaining to medicine. You could add the USA's ban on stem-cell research to this as well.
You haven't addressed these points in any way shape or form.
Then there is the matter of what, exactly, the Rahadoumi have given up:
1) Defence. Arcane magic is more powerful than clerical on the battlefield, so the Rahadoumi have not lost anything significant there provided they train up wizards to cover the lack of clerics.
2) Healing. Divine healing is too expensive for the common people even in nations that have it available, so for the rank and file of Rahadoum this makes no difference, so again there is no significant loss to the nation.
So I can't agree with your point that the Rahadoum have scuppered themselves, nor do I think it would give them pause if it were true.
Also it is obvious that Rahadoum is evil as in the war between the LG goddess and the NE god a good or even nuetral nation would be best served to gang up on and defeat the known evil while an evil group will act to its own personal interests.
Somebody's failure to serve their own best interests is not evidence that they are evil, merely that they have their own agenda. To the Rahadoumi mindset, the war that engulfs the LG followers of the goddess is proof that embracing gods brings conflict and that they are better off not involved, or even better off spreading their philosophy of rejection of deities to BOTH sides of the conflict.
Thats before you take into account the rampant slavery and what not that goes on in Rahadoum. Slavery by difinition is evil.
By which logic every nation except Andoran is evil, and they are not. Fact is, this is a very subjective statement, whether or not slavery is evil depends on how it is practised. For example, the definition of slavery - forced labour without recompense - can be applied to chain gangs working in the US penal system. Is this evil?
Some former slaves in Ancient Egypt and Rome became wealthy upstanding citizens of these nations. Clearly slavery did not permanently oppress them. So was that slavery evil?
While slavery such as plantation-slavery, racially-based and brutal, is evil I will agree, but slavery has not always been applied this way.
Lastly, while I agree that the leaders of the land are fanatical, this does not mean they are necessarily evil, nor that if they are this should effect the alignment of the nation as a reflection of the mood of the people in it.
I really appreciate your posts though, this has been a very interesting thread so far but as much as possible I will be avoiding talking overly much about the interaction of real world faiths, including atheism, to avoid turning this into a flame fest.
Contentious issues I raised merely to point out that 'provable benefits' are seeds in the wind before the pulsing fires of faith. I'm glad you are enjoying this debate though, it's definitely one to consider.
My interest is that a nation would refuse divine aid despite all the benefits that go with it. It makes no logical sense when you weigh risk verse reward.
This statement has several false assumptions:
1) That people are logical and reasonable. In my experience, they seldom are.
2) That your assessment of risk and reward is the way the Rahadmoumi see it. I have pointed out that to them, they are rejecting the conflict that goes with worshipping gods and the loss of divine magic is a small price to pay for peace and security. I have provided examples of people in the real world that gladly do this kind of action.
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Edit: Oh, and I think the devs and designers have agreed after some debate that there aren't any paladin hellknights; they originally conceived them but the way the hellknights developed as an order has kind of precluded paladins from within their ranks.
I wouldnt think there would be Paladin hellknights but the faction book does state that some hellknights are lawful good and that a paladin can be a member though I am not sure how a Paladin would be able to work under a LE asmodian without quite a bit of "ideological tension"
Which has what, exactly, to do with my point that provable reality can be trumped with belief in the mind of the believer? My example from the real world are the Young Earthers, Creationists and the like, which you acknowledge exist and exist in great numbers.
I see what you are saying.. You make a compelling point even if I still believe that the temporal power one would recieve for allowing religion would be to great to refuse for the Rahadoum.
Leaving out the existence or not of a divine being in our own reality, I must point out that Rahadoumi atheism is not a rejection of the existence of gods but a rejection of their worship.
Which seems to me would be something they could not enforce without a completely totalitarian state willing to punish anyone who feels called to a faith. That is implied and so more the reason I lean towards Rahadoum being LE. I also wonder how the government of Rahadoum can know who is a member of a religion or cult, It is not as if the priest/assassins or Norgorber are advertising thier affiliations which means the ban on religions in Rahadoum really only affects the Good faiths while having no impact on the sneakier or evil faiths.
I would think that the religious institutions of the world would be actively working to overthrow the anti-religious government of Rahadoum.
People can and do reject aspects or modern technology that are highly beneficial to their societies on the basis of 'moral purity' or some other aspect of their spiritual beliefs. I even cited two examples - the Taliban, who effectively removed all women from education and medical care, and the Amish, who reject all aspects of modern technology not pertaining to medicine. You could add the USA's ban on stem-cell research to this as well.
So what you are suggesting is that Rahadoum are basically acting as do the amish but reject religious power instead of electrical/technological power inspite of thier knowing the benefits?
Again you have made a good point. I may have to concede this one unless I am inspred in some way to argue it further. As you have said my argument may have been flawed as it is assumes the Rahadoumi are logical creatures.
You haven't addressed these points in any way shape or form.
I will see what I can do.. or maybe no.
Then there is the matter of what, exactly, the Rahadoumi have given up:
1) Defence. Arcane magic is more powerful than clerical on the battlefield, so the Rahadoumi have not lost anything significant there provided they train up wizards to cover the lack of clerics.
I think it is debatable as far as which is more powerful on the battlefield. I personally believe a high level cleric is more powerful than a wizard of the same level. I also want to remind you that Rahadoum has given up divine magic but the religious groups have not given up arcane followers. It is not an either or for the religious.
2) Healing. Divine healing is too expensive for the common people even in nations that have it available, so for the rank and file of Rahadoum this makes no difference, so again there is no significant loss to the nation.
Cure lightwounds is free and having even one low level cleric in a troop of men would make all the difference in the world on the field of battle.
So I can't agree with your point that the Rahadoum have scuppered themselves, nor do I think it would give them pause if it were true.
I think it is beyond a doubt that they have hobbled themselves but I also agree that based on the fact that they are illogical it becomes believable.
I agree that after-battle healing could be a big thing, but how many clerics and how many cure spells could you actually pull out for an army in comparison to it's likely casualties? If you have a hundred first level clerics, and a thousand casualties needing treatment, most of them are going to get a Heal check, not a spell - especially if those clerics were casting battlefield spells.
If they use wands or potions, consider the cost of said wand per charge or potion, and ask the question: which is more expensive, training up a new grunt or curing this one? Especially if with time and treatment he would be healed up and ready to fight in time anyway...
I think battlefield healing is likely reserved for veterans and senior ranks, a small proportion of an army, where it is available.
I agree, their state has a very totalitarian feel to it - in fact, most pseudo-feudal states are totalitarian to a lesser or greater extent, so I don't regard this as particularly noteworthy. I think it likely that enough of the population are sold on the idea of 'atheism' that they toe the line without even giving it much thought - they just follow the rules and are otherwise friendly, welcoming, and hospitable (according to my original inner sea guide), balancing out the state's ruthless repression of any religious activity.
I have little time for dinosaur deniers or young earth theory which is what brought me into this thread as the OP is basically talking about making a fantasy version of a dinosaur denier.
How do you figure? I don't know if I'd say that, but even so, playing a crazy character isn't immediately an idea that should be dismissed. Even if it is working hard to fit the concept in a world where it's hard to do, how is that different than the real world? The reverse mirror aspect of it seems really cool to me.
I have little time for dinosaur deniers or young earth theory which is what brought me into this thread as the OP is basically talking about making a fantasy version of a dinosaur denier.How do you figure? I don't know if I'd say that, but even so, playing a crazy character isn't immediately an idea that should be dismissed. Even if it is working hard to fit the concept in a world where it's hard to do, how is that different than the real world? The reverse mirror aspect of it seems really cool to me.
I understand that in a fantasy world like Golarion, being a Dawkins or Darwinian type would be considered crazy by most people.
The OP's character is just suspicious of creation myths. Just because there are crazy-powerful beings doesn't mean they really made life, regardless of what they might say.
OP: I'd go with a wizard for sure (trans or div, both are good for this), and maybe take Loremaster for the extra 2 skill points. I'd even consider a level of bard just to get more class skills. Knowledge is really what you're after, but some ranks in being persuasive could open doors, too. Either way, don't dump charisma.
That's a neat concept. I hope you get to play it to the hilt.
I understand that in a fantasy world like Golarion, being a Dawkins or Darwinian type would be considered crazy by most people.I have little time for dinosaur deniers or young earth theory which is what brought me into this thread as the OP is basically talking about making a fantasy version of a dinosaur denier.How do you figure? I don't know if I'd say that, but even so, playing a crazy character isn't immediately an idea that should be dismissed. Even if it is working hard to fit the concept in a world where it's hard to do, how is that different than the real world? The reverse mirror aspect of it seems really cool to me.
It was actually not considered all that sane in this world not very long before Darwin's day, but people were daring to think it and say it. Darwin was far from the first person to suggest the transmutation of species, quite a few people - including his own grandfather - had already expressed the idea based on fossil evidence, and had been mocked as crackpots. Darwin was just the first person to explain how and why it happened, and had established such a scientific reputation that it was a lot harder to simply deride him for it.