I'm currently playing an Alchemist in my local Pathfinder game. Great class, just one little problem. My DM found a rule under potions that allows a attack of opportunity to be directed at the potion itself instead of the drinker and he's been using it, a lot. While this is fine in and of itself but it also applies to an Alchemists extracts and mutagens which has been screwing me. All this is all legal and I must accept it, I understand this.
What I'd like to know is if there are any ways to avoid the aoo. Like drinking defensively of something.
Side note: He was also using this rule to aoo my bombs....now that I think about it, it doesn't make any sense. Does it?
The best way to avoid it is to no be in range of someone who can attack you.
5ft step away from them or, better yet, never let them get that close to begin with. Unless you are actively playing a melee alchemist of some kind your best bet is to leave front-line combat to the front line and stay in the rear of the group.
As for bombs.. well, they are items- and as such can be targeted by a sundering aoo attempt I suppose.
It should also be noted that Displacement is on your alchemist list- (you can select it as early as level 7) and you might want to get in on some of that. A flat out miss-chance is awesome for negating AoO's and such.
-S
As someone who dms a lot I am so sick of reading threads about dms who seem to have it out for players. My question: Are you having as much fun as you were b4 he found this rule? Probably not, to me this is the mark of a dm who views dnd as him against the players, and really it's sad and childish, I can understand occasionally tripping you up with the aoo(its a neat way to keep you on your toes) but it's really pathetic to essentially destroy a players main class features, as for the bombs it's hard to say, they are definitely in my mind a "magical"/"supernatural"/"etc" type thing but then again I want my players to have fun, kick ass, and at the least get to effectively use their class features
I'm currently playing an Alchemist in my local Pathfinder game. Great class, just one little problem. My DM found a rule under potions that allows a attack of opportunity to be directed at the potion itself instead of the drinker and he's been using it, a lot. While this is fine in and of itself but it also applies to an Alchemists extracts and mutagens which has been screwing me. All this is all legal and I must accept it, I understand this.
What I'd like to know is if there are any ways to avoid the aoo. Like drinking defensively of something.
Side note: He was also using this rule to aoo my bombs....now that I think about it, it doesn't make any sense. Does it?
He cannot AoO your bombs. They are no potions, they are not treated as potions. He is wrong there.
You could acquire some soft cover. A summoned monster (there's an alchemist that has these), an ally, or anything else that provides cover or soft cover prevents AoOs entirely.
Also, exactly where does this AoO vs potions exist? The only thing I know of is that drinking the potion provokes an attack which could be used to sunder, but that sunder attempt is against your combat maneuver defense. Consider taking Defensive Combat Training (the feat) to treat your BAB as being 1/HD for purposes of CMD, and then stack CMD buffs like deflection bonuses, dodge bonuses, strength bonuses, dexterity bonuses, and so forth.
Don't forget that if your foes aren't using reach weapons, you can usually take a 5 ft. step back and drink, unless they have feats specifically to counter this.
Have someone else apply the potion or oil to you, from behind you. Won't work with extracts unless you have the discovery that lets them last longer and be used by other people, but having someone or something around to apply it to you while you're soft cover means you get your juice. Familiars are really good for this (if it's really so terrible, you could always dip 1 level of wizard for the familiar and cantrips, as the familiar has 1/2 your total HP and uses your saves, so even if your familiar never gets great powers it can use you for cover and apply your potions/oils to you on its turn).
You can also use total concealment to avoid AoOs. If you're invisible, no AoOs. If you're 5ft. away from an enemy in the radius of a smokestick, no AoOs. If you're in the dark and your foe doesn't have darkvision, no AoOs. If your friend makes a silent image of a wall between you and your opponent, no AoOs.
ctivation: Drinking a potion or applying an oil requires no special skill. The user merely removes the stopper and swallows the potion or smears on the oil. The following rules govern potion and oil use.
Drinking a potion or using an oil is a standard action. The potion or oil takes effect immediately. Using a potion or oil provokes attacks of opportunity. An enemy may direct an attack of opportunity against the potion or oil container rather than against the character. A successful attack of this sort can destroy the container, preventing the character from drinking the potion or applying the oil.
A creature must be able to swallow a potion or smear on an oil. Because of this, incorporeal creatures cannot use potions or oils. Any corporeal creature can imbibe a potion or use an oil.
A character can carefully administer a potion to an unconscious creature as a full-round action, trickling the liquid down the creature's throat. Likewise, it takes a full-round action to apply an oil to an unconscious creature.
This is from the magic item section under potions.
Thanks for all the suggestions, today's session was a bit grueling. Too many 'no win' scenarios can get to you.
If someone makes a sunder attempt against your potion/extract/whatever he needs improved sunder or he will provoke an AoO for doing so.
So make sure you have friends threatening the other guy.
If your GM now gives every opponent improved sunder you should talk it over with him because then he is clearly destoying your character.
And +1 for what Ashiel said.
Take a level of barbarian, Drunken Brute :
"Raging Drunk (Ex)
While raging, the drunken brute can drink a potion, or a tankard of ale or similar quantity of alcohol, as a move action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity"
ctivation: Drinking a potion or applying an oil requires no special skill. The user merely removes the stopper and swallows the potion or smears on the oil. The following rules govern potion and oil use.
Drinking a potion or using an oil is a standard action. The potion or oil takes effect immediately. Using a potion or oil provokes attacks of opportunity. An enemy may direct an attack of opportunity against the potion or oil container rather than against the character. A successful attack of this sort can destroy the container, preventing the character from drinking the potion or applying the oil.
A creature must be able to swallow a potion or smear on an oil. Because of this, incorporeal creatures cannot use potions or oils. Any corporeal creature can imbibe a potion or use an oil.
A character can carefully administer a potion to an unconscious creature as a full-round action, trickling the liquid down the creature's throat. Likewise, it takes a full-round action to apply an oil to an unconscious creature.
This is from the magic item section under potions.
Thanks for all the suggestions, today's session was a bit grueling. Too many 'no win' scenarios can get to you.
Then once again, increasing your CMD might be a good first line of defense, since he still has to actually successfully sunder your potions. Also, if you want to be a bastard, put all your potions in little adamantine vials. Vials are of negligible weight, so little mithral or adamantine vials would make sundering that much more of a pain, and would cost you little to nothing (technically the cost of a mithral vial is...the cost of a normal vial, 'cause it's so light).
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If the DM is consistently attempting to sunder your potions, extracts, and bombs, then he is picking on you.
Talk to him, and ask him why.
Remember to let him know the entire point of the Pathfinder game is for everyone to have fun.Everyone.
I don't know it seems valid enough and possibly better than getting hit, intelligent opponents will probably know that it is dangerous to allow people to use magic so they try to disrupt them. Personally I just treat alchemists as spellcasters with potions being fluff, normal concentration checks, defensive 'casting' and all that.
sorry guys, I don't really understand the problem here.
1-Drinking potions in melee provokes AoO. Well, yeah? Safety is just a 5-foot step away. If you get routinely surrounded by enemies, then *that* is the problem - not sundering potions. Normally it should be fairly easy for you to avoid AoO if you try. If your DM swarms you he may be out to get you
2-With their AoO, they can destroy the potion instead of damaging you. So, you complain you don't take the damage? Wizards getting hit take damage _and_ risk losing their spells. This rule also goes both ways, so if you toss it out there's no way to prevent BBEGs from drinking their potions.
Note: I may be misreading this, but hitting the potion should to be just as hard (or harder) as hitting you. The PRD wording is "a successful attack", which I interpret as a standard attack vs your AC, not neceesarily a sunder or disarm maneuver. The fluff here is knocking it out of your hands or hitting your arm and making you spill it, not necessarily shattering the bottle. Rules experts please correct me as needed.
If your DM is quoting the PRD to give an AC 13 for potions, that refers to a stationary 1"x2" bottle, and hitting one held by you is much, much harder (whether by attack, sunder or disarm)
Note: I may be misreading this, but hitting the potion should to be just as hard (or harder) as hitting you. The PRD wording is "a successful attack", which I interpret as a standard attack vs your AC, not neceesarily a sunder or disarm maneuver.
The potion is a held object. Why should it be harder to target than, say, a dagger in your hand? We're looking at a classic disarm/sunder attempt here (which, of course, provokes an AoO itself).
(Yes, this means that due to the CMD rules, it is more difficult to shatter a potion held by a stronger opponent. Yes, I fail to see the merit behind this, as well.)
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Note: I may be misreading this, but hitting the potion should to be just as hard (or harder) as hitting you. The PRD wording is "a successful attack", which I interpret as a standard attack vs your AC, not neceesarily a sunder or disarm maneuver.The potion is a held object. Why should it be harder to target than, say, a dagger in your hand? We're looking at a classic disarm/sunder attempt here (which, of course, provokes an AoO itself).
(Yes, this means that due to the CMD rules, it is more difficult to shatter a potion held by a stronger opponent. Yes, I fail to see the merit behind this, as well.)
Well presumably the person drinking the potion isn't holding it out with thumb and forefinger and waving it around to give you a chance to hit it. More likely they've got it palmed or gripped in such a way that you probably can't even see the vial. They're probably also still trying to defend themselves (and, by extension, the potion).
So the sunder maneuver represents not just the physical effect of weapon on glass vial, but also getting into the right position to strike, forcing or finessing your way past their guard, then either attacking their fist to make them crush the vial themselves, or making their grip slip enough to expose enough glass to strike.
Strength matters a lot during that whole process.
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He cannot AoO your bombs. They are no potions, they are not treated as potions. He is wrong there.
There is no AoO for drawing the bombs, but there is for throwing them as they are ranged attacks.
I agree with mnay other people here though when I say - get out of melee! The situation you're describing is what a 5 foot step is for. If you're drinking extracts in combat you are effectively a spellcaster and shouldn't want to be anywhere near melee when "casting." Classes which are meant to cast up close either get concentration bonuses (magus) or better armor (cleric,oracle).
If your alchemist is set up as a mutagen melee guy, then you may have to realize that having it all - mutagens, extracts, bombs - is very difficult to pull off and likely intentionally so.
For those of you putting down the GM, please remember that alchemists play very differently than many GMs are used to. They can wreck encounters that are artificially "hard" by bypassing DR and SR. This can lead to a frustrated GM trying to take steps to curtail what they see as a problem. I'm not defenidng targetting a player, just saying that it's an understandable overreaction.
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Yep, get out of melee.
This rule is completely analogous to any caster getting a spell disrupted by an AOO.
I am with some of the others here. I don't see a problem with it. If a super powerful archer were bombarding our party and was standing right next to us and I had a chance to sunder his bow--I would. If you are using ranged weapons, what are you doing in the front line?
iron vials can give you better hardness and hp on the object. And they are RAW, from the Adventurers Armory I think.
Sundering something also provokes an AoO in turn, unless the enemy has Improved Sunder. Swat him with a melee weapon, and your CMD increases according to damage dealt.
Also remember that dodge and deflection (like ring of protection) bonuses add to CMD.
And raging brute is literally MADE for the alchemist in my opinion. It is by far the best dip an alchemist can make in any class. If your GM allows third party stuff, consider Organized Inventory and Quick Draw, which allows you to draw potions (and _anything_ else) as a free action.
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What everyone else said; your DM's a jerk, use iron vials, buff CMD, stay out of melee, make sure you're getting YOUR AoOs for the foes w/o Improved Sunder...
And if you really want to take this to nuclear levels, you could point out that...
"You can attempt to sunder an item held or worn by your opponent as part of an attack action in place of a melee attack."
vs.
"You can attempt to trip your opponent in place of a melee attack."
"You can attempt to disarm your opponent in place of a melee attack."
(quotes from d20pfsrd)
Note that an "attack action" is not just some descriptive term. It's sort of a thing... as in, it's under the standard actions section of combat.
So, technically, by the absolute strictest RAW, since your DM seems to LOVE going by the exact letter of the RAW, you cannot even sunder on an AoO, as AoOs do not allow attack actions (a standard action). Only trip and disarm say they replace a melee attack in general.
See how quick he is to rage or houserule once you point that out! I have a feeling he'll be quite upset at how the rules are now shutting down his vicarious-projections-to-make-up-for-feeling-inadequate-in-real-life, err...I mean, DMPCs.
What everyone else said; your DM's a jerk, use iron vials, buff CMD, stay out of melee, make sure you're getting YOUR AoOs for the foes w/o Improved Sunder...
And if you really want to take this to nuclear levels, you could point out that...
"You can attempt to sunder an item held or worn by your opponent as part of an attack action in place of a melee attack."
vs.
"You can attempt to trip your opponent in place of a melee attack."
"You can attempt to disarm your opponent in place of a melee attack."
(quotes from d20pfsrd)
Note that an "attack action" is not just some descriptive term. It's sort of a thing... as in, it's under the standard actions section of combat.
So, technically, by the absolute strictest RAW, since your DM seems to LOVE going by the exact letter of the RAW, you cannot even sunder on an AoO, as AoOs do not allow attack actions (a standard action). Only trip and disarm say they replace a melee attack in general.
See how quick he is to rage or houserule once you point that out! I have a feeling he'll be quite upset at how the rules are now shutting down his vicarious-projections-to-make-up-for-feeling-inadequate-in-real-life, err...I mean, DMPCs.
This made me giggle. :P
If someone makes a sunder attempt against your potion/extract/whatever he needs improved sunder or he will provoke an AoO for doing so.
So make sure you have friends threatening the other guy.If your GM now gives every opponent improved sunder you should talk it over with him because then he is clearly destoying your character.
And +1 for what Ashiel said.
Sunder, and Combat Maneuvers in general, only provokes an AoO from the target of the maneuver. Having your buddies around to threaten won't work.
ctivation: Drinking a potion or applying an oil requires no special skill. The user merely removes the stopper and swallows the potion or smears on the oil. The following rules govern potion and oil use.
Drinking a potion or using an oil is a standard action. The potion or oil takes effect immediately. Using a potion or oil provokes attacks of opportunity. An enemy may direct an attack of opportunity against the potion or oil container rather than against the character. A successful attack of this sort can destroy the container, preventing the character from drinking the potion or applying the oil.
A creature must be able to swallow a potion or smear on an oil. Because of this, incorporeal creatures cannot use potions or oils. Any corporeal creature can imbibe a potion or use an oil.
A character can carefully administer a potion to an unconscious creature as a full-round action, trickling the liquid down the creature's throat. Likewise, it takes a full-round action to apply an oil to an unconscious creature.
So targeting the potion with an AoO is not a sunder and doesn't use the Sunder rules.
Is the AC to hit the potion the AC of the drinker, or the AC of the vial?
ctivation: Drinking a potion or applying an oil requires no special skill. The user merely removes the stopper and swallows the potion or smears on the oil. The following rules govern potion and oil use.
Drinking a potion or using an oil is a standard action. The potion or oil takes effect immediately. Using a potion or oil provokes attacks of opportunity. An enemy may direct an attack of opportunity against the potion or oil container rather than against the character. A successful attack of this sort can destroy the container, preventing the character from drinking the potion or applying the oil.
A creature must be able to swallow a potion or smear on an oil. Because of this, incorporeal creatures cannot use potions or oils. Any corporeal creature can imbibe a potion or use an oil.
A character can carefully administer a potion to an unconscious creature as a full-round action, trickling the liquid down the creature's throat. Likewise, it takes a full-round action to apply an oil to an unconscious creature.
So targeting the potion with an AoO is not a sunder and doesn't use the Sunder rules.
Is the AC to hit the potion the AC of the drinker, or the AC of the vial?
Attended objects always have the defensive statistics of the wearer/wielder. So if you interpret this as NOT a combat maneuver, I would say his AC, unlike normally attacking an object which is CMB vs CMD. Personally, I would make this a sunder attempt becauce that is precisely what it effectively is.
Sunder, and Combat Maneuvers in general, only provokes an AoO from the target of the maneuver. Having your buddies around to threaten won't work.If someone makes a sunder attempt against your potion/extract/whatever he needs improved sunder or he will provoke an AoO for doing so.
So make sure you have friends threatening the other guy.If your GM now gives every opponent improved sunder you should talk it over with him because then he is clearly destoying your character.
And +1 for what Ashiel said.
Can you give me a page number for this? because i think that this is incorrect.
"I would say his AC" plus the size modifier for the item
Requiring an attack to penaetrate an opponents plate armor because he is holding a potion seems weird, I'd definately go with a CMB check.
Now I am more divided on the AoO provoking an AoO, the target seems to be distracted drinking a potion allowing an opening in his defense or presenting an obvious target, imagine the target making an AoO while throwing his head back to swallow the contents of a potion bottle, using his other hand or unarmed strike/natural attack.
I'd rule out the AoO provoking AoO in this case, 'especially' since technically a sunder attempt could normally not be made as an AoO and the rules makes a special mention of being able to target the potion instead.
NOTE: since an alchemist has many other benefits inherent in his way of 'casting' I do not see this as particulary unfair, his 'casting' has no verbal or somatic components is hard to disturb in many cases not requiring concentration checks. All in all it seems perfectly legal and fair for the GM to play this way, I think most players would actually play the same way. Just get out of melee range and drink the potions when you are relatively safe in most cases a 5 foot step will take you there. Just get a decent CMD.
Concentration checks to cast defensively are easy as pie. I would GLADLY give up the whole "sorta casting but not really" charade to have an actual caster level, and have the spell effects work like they actually should.
Concentration checks in a grapple are obscenely hard, but...pulling out an extract is just plain impossible w/o winning a grapple check (which if you could, you'd be better served using it to just get out of the grapple...), so even there, actual spellcasting is looking pretty good...
1) 5 foot stepping should solve most of your problems.
2) Move action, draw out a bright shiny vial you bought in the shop. No one should be able to tell it from a bomb or one of your extracts. The person takes their attack of opportunity .. and ruins a 1 silver piece chunk of glass.
Then you take out your bomb and hit them in the face with it.
Yep, get out of melee.
This rule is completely analogous to any caster getting a spell disrupted by an AOO.
Except, as noted in the original post, you can cast defensively but you can't drink defensively.
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Here is the Potion Sponge:
Potion Sponge: This egg-sized sponge is covered in a
layer of waterproof edible wax, designed to absorb 1 dose
of a potion. Chewing a potion sponge and swallowing
its liquid contents is a full-round action. A creature of
at least Large size can swallow the sponge in its entirely;
other creatures must spit out the sponge once it’s
depleted (a free action). Unlike a potion that is drunk
from a vial, a potion sponge can be used underwater. A
potion can be poured from a vial into a sponge potion (or
squeezed from a sponge into a vial) as a full-round action.
The potion sponge is immune to attacks that specifically
target crystal, glass, ceramic, or porcelain, such as shatter.
It otherwise works like a potion vial.
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I don't see this as a problem with the GM unless he never allows you to be out of melee. If you are not being tactical, I don't see this as the GM's fault.
Concentration checks to cast defensively are easy as pie. I would GLADLY give up the whole "sorta casting but not really" charade to have an actual caster level, and have the spell effects work like they actually should.
Concentration checks in a grapple are obscenely hard, but...pulling out an extract is just plain impossible w/o winning a grapple check (which if you could, you'd be better served using it to just get out of the grapple...), so even there, actual spellcasting is looking pretty good...
But you can drink in armor and when silenced without problem, stealth drinking a potion is easier than stealth casting most of the time too.
Different, not worse, the concentration check isn't always that easy anyway and it can be disrupted by damage from say.. a readied spell or attack, depending on the GM it can be ridiculousy easy by spamming silence spells to disrupt your verbal components even if you succeed on the save.
but...pulling out an extract is just plain impossible w/o winning a grapple check
Says who? There's no grapple check for drawing items anymore.
Can you give me a page number for this? because i think that this is incorrect.Sunder, and Combat Maneuvers in general, only provokes an AoO from the target of the maneuver. Having your buddies around to threaten won't work.If someone makes a sunder attempt against your potion/extract/whatever he needs improved sunder or he will provoke an AoO for doing so.
So make sure you have friends threatening the other guy.If your GM now gives every opponent improved sunder you should talk it over with him because then he is clearly destoying your character.
And +1 for what Ashiel said.
Sure thing.
Performing a Combat Maneuver: When performing a combat maneuver, you must use an action appropriate to the maneuver you are attempting to perform. While many combat maneuvers can be performed as part of an attack action, full-attack action, or attack of opportunity (in place of a melee attack), others require a specific action. Unless otherwise noted, performing a combat maneuver provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of the maneuver. If you are hit by the target, you take the damage normally and apply that amount as a penalty to the attack roll to perform the maneuver. If your target is immobilized, unconscious, or otherwise incapacitated, your maneuver automatically succeeds (treat as if you rolled a natural 20 on the attack roll). If your target is stunned, you receive a +4 bonus on your attack roll to perform a combat maneuver against it.
Concentration checks to cast defensively are easy as pie.
If you call a 50% miss chance "easy", then yes.
Also don't tell your gm about the step up feat that ruins the 5 foot step back. Also by the strict letters of raw I think if an extract leaves your hand you lose it so wouldn't disarm be better? Picking the potion up off the ground is move action and provokes.
But you can drink in armor and when silenced without problem, stealth drinking a potion is easier than stealth casting most of the time too.
Different, not worse, the concentration check isn't always that easy anyway and it can be disrupted by damage from say.. a readied spell or attack, depending on the GM it can be ridiculousy easy by spamming silence spells to disrupt your verbal components even if you succeed on the save.
Bards can cast in light armor, as can several other "bard progression" classes. I'd expect a "spells Alchemist" would likewise be able to cast in light armor, which is good enough.
For stealth, drinking is better. But drinking extracts has little direct offensive use, it's mostly just buffing, which isn't that hard to do stealthily, since you don't need to be near enemies when you do it.
Readied actions can hurt casting, that's basically the only sure fire way to in general. But the alchemist suffers from readied and AoOs. It won't disrupt the drinking, but targeting the flask is quite easy, as the OP is all about. Silence isn't a common threat, only a few classes get it on their lists, and PF saw fit to nerf the duration to round/level, too, so just walking around with a silenced pebble (a favorite 3e tactic) isn't so hot anymore.
Says who? There's no grapple check for drawing items anymore.
I was not aware of this. That is helpful, then.
Concentration checks to cast defensively are easy as pie.If you call a 50% miss chance "easy", then yes.
50%?
Caster starts with 20 in casting stat (every race buffs a mental stat, unless you're playing in like 10 point buy you can reliably start w/ a 20 as a caster, especially the sorc/wizard). He has at level 1 a +6 bonus and DCs of 15 and 17 for 0 and 1st level spells. He makes the cantrips on a 9 (60% success rate) and 1st level spells on an 11 (50% success rate). At every level, those % go up by 5 each. Around level 5, the caster gets a +2 headband and raises success rates across the board by another 5%. Ditto at level 8, from level up bonuses. So, a level 8 snapshot: CL 8, casting stat of 22 (24 w/ item), total of +15. 4th level spells, his most difficult, have a DC of 23 so he needs a 7 (70% success rate). For every spell level below that, his success goes up by 10%.
I'd call that pretty easy. This is a guy who's invested nothing towards casting defensively. Hell, thanks to PF, concentration doesn't even cost skill points anymore! Just by jacking up his CL and ability score as much as possible, which he wants to do anyway, he's already pretty safe doing defensive casting by mid levels. If he's willing to not use his absolute most powerful spells, he can approach automatic success pretty closely. Level 1 is a bit rough, but it quickly gets better.
And let's say he spends one of his 2 traits on +2 concentration. Now he has 60% success w/ level 1 spells at 1st level, 65% at level 2. Level 8 snapshot is now a 80% success rate on the most powerful spells. Level 2 spells literally are automatic.
My acrobatics-using characters would love to have odds like that with such little investment...
Concentration checks to cast defensively are easy as pie.If you call a 50% miss chance "easy", then yes.50%?
Caster starts with 20 in casting stat (every race buffs a mental stat, unless you're playing in like 10 point buy you can reliably start w/ a 20 as a caster, especially the sorc/wizard).
Correction "Highly optimized caster starts at 20." With a 15 pt. buy (standard) that's 17 of your 15 pts. Get ready to dump half your scores if you want a positive CON modifier.
Also, not every race gets bonuses to the right mental score. Want to play a Gnome Illusionist (not sorcerer) with a 15 point buy and a STR higher than 6? You're looking at a 16-17 INT.
So caster starts with a 16-20 in casting stat. Just add a 10% variation to everything you posted.
He has at level 1 a +6 bonus and DCs of 15 and 17 for 0 and 1st level spells. He makes the cantrips on a 9 (60% success rate) and 1st level spells on an 11 (50% success rate).
Cantrips, really? Ahem...
He has at level 1 a +4 to +6 bonus and DC 17 for 1st level spells. He makes them on an 11-13 (40-50% success rate).
Not as impressive.
Around level 5, the caster gets a +2 headband and raises success rates across the board by another 5%. Ditto at level 8, from level up bonuses. So, a level 8 snapshot: CL 8, casting stat of 22 (24 w/ item), total of +15. 4th level spells, his most difficult, have a DC of 23 so he needs a 7 (70% success rate). For every spell level below that, his success goes up by 10%.
Well, lv 8 is most of the way through a PFS character. 12 is the highest a lot of characters will see, anyway. Level 6 is half way through.
CL 6, casting stat of 17 to 21 (19 to 23 w/ item), total of +10 to +12. 3rd level spells, his most difficult, have a DC of 21 so he needs a 9 to 11 (50%-60% success rate.)Yeah, this gets better as you level up. But at low (and even into mid) levels it kinda sucks.
Even going by your numbers, 70% is easy? Plus a 50% chance that the target makes it save, plus SR? Your looking at a 20% chance now your spell actually gets through. Casting is hard enough as it is, doesn't need a 30% failure rate on top of that if you can avoid it.
Heck, if that's easy, might as well walk around in Full Plate all day. Not like the ACP to attacks hurts that much, and only 35% ASF. Easy.
And let's say he spends one of his 2 traits on +2 concentration. Now he has 60% success w/ level 1 spells at 1st level, 65% at level 2. Level 8 snapshot is now a 80% success rate on the most powerful spells. Level 2 spells literally are automatic.
My acrobatics-using characters would love to have odds like that with such little investment...
So, something that's hard gets easier with a feat? Thats what feats are for. Doesn't make it not hard in the first place.
15 point buy human wizard: Str 7 Dex 14 Con 14 Int 20 Wis 7 Cha 7
You can play a caster w/ a race that doesn't boost mental score. You could also choose to fail to cast all of your spells or lay down to take a nap in a bear trap. Just because the game allows you to make bad decisions doesn't mean I have to factor them in for an analysis. Someone might only want a casting stat of 16+2 to not dump other stats so much, that's a more reasonable claim. That would drop the % by 5 across the board.
Please explain how other than casting defensively, "Casting is hard enough as it is."
The full plate example is silly. You're presumably not casting EVERY spell under threat. And you can get half the benefit w/ none of the drawback by just using mage armor... And unlike the alchemist, your offense tends to have pretty good ranges, to help keep you from melee more often.
And you're just pulling random numbers. Not everything has SR. Not every spell allows save and SR. And if you're a smart mage, you target the weak saves anyway, so the save % is much more favorable. Or you use battlefield control spells, where it impedes the foe even if he saves. Or you use buff spells or summon spells, which don't care about saves or SR at all.
And I said trait, not feat. Burning a trait for +10% isn't so harsh. The feat is +20%.
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50%?
Caster starts with 20 in casting stat (every race buffs a mental stat, unless you're playing in like 10 point buy you can reliably start w/ a 20 as a caster, especially the sorc/wizard). He has at level 1 a +6 bonus and DCs of 15 and 17 for 0 and 1st level spells. He makes the cantrips on a 9 (60% success rate) and 1st level spells on an 11 (50% success rate). At every level,...
Let's bring this back to the realm of reality...most characters are not going to start with a 20 in their casting stat. While you and a few others have no issues with it, the reality is that most characters won't. Most people just don't build characters with three dump stats. It's a bad analogy.
I don't think casting defensively is all that big of a deal, but I do like to keep things more plausible with discussions.
15 point buy human wizard: Str 7 Dex 14 Con 14 Int 20 Wis 7 Cha 7
Get ready to dump half your scores if you want a positive CON modifier.
Just as I predicted.
You can play a caster w/ a race that doesn't boost mental score. You could also choose to fail to cast all of your spells or lay down to take a nap in a bear trap. Just because the game allows you to make bad decisions doesn't mean I have to factor them in for an analysis. Someone might only want a casting stat of 16+2 to not dump other stats so much, that's a more reasonable claim. That would drop the % by 5 across the board.
So, playing a Gnome Illusionist is the same as laying down in a bear trap? Clearly we have radically different concepts of how the game works.
Please explain how other than casting defensively, "Casting is hard enough as it is."
I thought I just did. Saves and SR.
The full plate example is silly. You're presumably not casting EVERY spell under threat. And you can get half the benefit w/ none of the drawback by just using mage armor... And unlike the alchemist, your offense tends to have pretty good ranges, to help keep you from melee more often.
You said a 30% spell failure rate was "easy as pie" That statement is equally as silly. I was pointing that out.
And you're just pulling random numbers. Not everything has SR. Not every spell allows save and SR. And if you're a smart mage, you target the weak saves anyway, so the save % is much more favorable. Or you use battlefield control spells, where it impedes the foe even if he saves. Or you use buff spells or summon spells, which don't care about saves or SR at all.
So it's Schrodinger's Wizard now, that always has the right spell targeting the right saves every time?
And I said trait, not feat. Burning a trait for +10% isn't so harsh. The feat is +20%.
Trait is half a feat. Same difference.
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I didn't read everything bc I am at work, but my simple advice (because a tit for a tat and I am a jerk) take improved disarm and just carry around flasks of water. Pull them and when enemies go to sunder you disarm them and have the rest of the group all AoO the enemy. If the GM asks how you knew it was going to happen tell him " Fool me once, shame, shame on you..... It fooled me you can't get fooled again".
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Then once again, increasing your CMD might be a good first line of defense, since he still has to actually successfully sunder your potions. Also, if you want to be a bastard, put all your potions in little adamantine vials. Vials are of negligible weight, so little mithral or adamantine vials would make sundering that much more of a pain, and would cost you little to nothing (technically the cost of a mithral vial is...the cost of a normal vial, 'cause it's so light).
Not only that, but after you kill them you are then garaunteed magical or at least addy weapons. lol
Alternate solution: invent the PF/D&D equivalent of a "beer hat." have two potions in it. suck them down as a free action that doesn't provoke aoo.
15 point buy human wizard: Str 7 Dex 14 Con 14 Int 20 Wis 7 Cha 7
this array wouldn't fly with Weekly William. he would ask for you to come up with a good case for why you have 3 7s. just like he would expect you to come up with a case for why you are a fighter/rogue/barbarian/monk/ranger.
he would normally expect a 1 page backstory, a 1 page list of friends and connections, a 1 page list of enemies, a 3 Generation family tree that goes up to your grandparents and you to answer 20 questions as a minimum, but something like this would require an extra page or few of backstory.
and even then, he tends to go after everyone's weaknesses, he just targets the gaping holes much more than the minor nicks. he would also require you to write up sheets for any important friends or relatives you intend to take adventuring with you.
which is why my chelexian fire elemental bloodline sorceress has a charisma of 16. i know she is horribly suboptimal, but weekly william's campaigns are so sadistic as to encourage classes one wouldn't normally take. based on the fact he targets weaknesses. he mind controls martials with bad will saves, forces low charisma characters to roll the occasional diplomacy check they never knew they would have to roll, and forces you to track every last ounce you pick up.
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By the way, mutagens have durations of 10 minutes per level. There's no reason to be drinking one next to an enemy.
And unless you're trying to show the extremes, one should tailor their advice to a baseline character, not one that dumps 3 stats and maxes out another. It greatly undermines ones argument.
Not to mention you can't cast defensively with potions.