Because they can always full attack, it's reliable, consistent damage (hard to miss and do nothing if you have 2+ attacks per round). You may not do as much damage as melee once they get pounce, but it's like playing the game on easy mode; you just say full attack, roll, end turn. Sometimes it's nice to just turn your brain off and not have complex stuff going on.
Also, you don't have to risk the myriad dangers of melee combat to do your damage, like those other poor saps. Seriously, look at the injury poisons, diseases, Su close ranged effects, and so forth that monsters get, just skim through the bestiary lists some time. No sane person would want to get anywhere near that crap! So archery is a nice middle compromise for those who both "don't want to die" but also "feel overwhelmed at the complexities of real ultimate power [spellcasting]".
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Because they can full attack more often allowing for more damage to a target, can do so from range, can use cluster shot to push more damage through DR and because it's easier to mix magical effects with ranged weapons.
Also most monsters are fairly melee based, as such attacking from range means you can avoid more damage.
Basically for all the same reasons ranged combat is superior to melee combat in the real world plus a few more reasons (better magic mixing, and DR penetration).
Because they can always full attack, it's reliable, consistent damage (hard to miss and do nothing if you have 2+ attacks per round). You may not do as much damage as melee once they get pounce, but it's like playing the game on easy mode; you just say full attack, roll, end turn. Sometimes it's nice to just turn your brain off and not have complex stuff going on.
Also, you don't have to risk the myriad dangers of melee combat to do your damage, like those other poor saps. Seriously, look at the injury poisons, diseases, Su close ranged effects, and so forth that monsters get, just skim through the bestiary lists some time. No sane person would want to get anywhere near that crap! So archery is a nice middle compromise for those who both "don't want to die" but also "feel overwhelmed at the complexities of real ultimate power [spellcasting]".
There are preciously few ways for warriors to gain pounce whilst retaining a form that can make iterative attacks. James Jacob has also expressed the opinion that pounce does not work with iterative attacks. Make of that what you will. =)
Almost always gets to make a full attack, a ridiculous amount of arrows, very easy and clear build-path to make a powerful character.
They're probably the easiest way to make a character that completely overpowers almost every other damage dealer.
Well, major perks:
Making attacks at a distance. Don't have to stand right next to them, availing yourself to their full attack actions.
Making full attack actions without much need for positioning. So on average, more attacks per round. Also, you get Rapid Shot and Manyshot for more arrows. OR Flurry of Blows if a Zen Archer Monk.
Although an arrow individually deals less damage than say, a greatsword, if you have some ability that tacks on extra damage to arrows, (Paladin's Smite Evil, Inquisitor's Bane, Ranger's Favored Enemy...) that damage stacks up much quicker on an archery build than on a Two-handed fighter build.
EDIT: And very ninja'd.
With archery you can full attack every round, whereas melee have to close with each target before being able to full attack. Dex, needed for hitting also benefits AC, initiative, reflex saves. Str for melee doesn't have any defensive benefit.
It is more common to encounter flying creatures than it is to encounter enemies with Wind Wall.
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There are preciously few ways for warriors to gain pounce whilst retaining a form that can make iterative attacks. James Jacob has also expressed the opinion that pounce does not work with iterative attacks. Make of that what you will. =)
Well, a Synthesist has it at level 1.
Aside from that easy route, Greater Beast Totem Barb gets it at 10; Beastmorph Alchemist gets it at 10; Druid gets it at 6, Mounted Skirmisher is move + full attack (effectively the same) when mounted and can be gained at 14 or 10 if Ranger or 1 if Sohei Monk... Really not that uncommon.
It's nice what JJ thinks. Thankfully, SKR over ruled him w/ the recent ragelancepounce ruling (paraphrasing, "yes, a full attack = a full attack, so you get your iteratives; but the heightened lance damage is from the momentum of the charge so only the 1st attack is multiplied"). I often disagree w/ SKR, but that is one thing he nailed, dead on. God forbid the full BAB classes actually get to utilize their main supposed advantage -- iterative attacks -- that'd be crazy! Nah, we'll just let druid, and eidolon/synthesist pounce with tons of natural attacks, that's MUCH fairer! They're supposed to be the kings of melee, after all, right?
It is more common to encounter flying creatures than it is to encounter enemies with Wind Wall.
Bah! Fickle Winds FTW!
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It is more common to encounter flying creatures than it is to encounter enemies with Wind Wall.Bah! Fickle Winds FTW!
Yeah, that spell is broken. I really wish they hadn't printed it. Mages shutting down archery completely w/ no recourse other than to dispel the instant win spell... just lovely, paizo.
At least with wind wall you might be able to move around it...
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Yeah, that spell is broken. I really wish they hadn't printed it. Mages shutting down archery completely w/ no recourse other than to dispel the instant win spell... just lovely, paizo.
Hmm... given the fact that some ranged builds are pretty much instant 'I win' buttons in many encounters, I see this spell more like a 'Nope. You lose' button.
Still, degrading the whole situation into a complete binary decision is... far less than optimal, in my opinion.
Archery builds are very good damage dealers for all the reasons listed, and more. Archery has a very nice selection of targeted buff spells (gravity bow, aspect of the falcon, etc.) which make an already good tactical choice even better. Plus you can get some really nice ranged magic weapons which negate many of the more bothersome ranged attack penalties. And, of course, you can always play a mounted archer who can full attack while the mount moves around the battlefield.
The downside of archery is that it is pretty feat intensive, although that's not a huge problem for fighters who have more feats than they know what to do with, and rangers who don't need all the prerequisite feats if they choose archery as a style.
In spite of the acknowledged power of the archer, many players don't like playing them because they feel bored by the constant full attack from a distance every round tactic.
I tend to use archery as a way to boost characters who lack other solid combat abilities. High dex builds are always good candidates for archers.
There are preciously few ways for warriors to gain pounce whilst retaining a form that can make iterative attacks. James Jacob has also expressed the opinion that pounce does not work with iterative attacks. Make of that what you will. =)Well, a Synthesist has it at level 1.
Aside from that easy route, Greater Beast Totem Barb gets it at 10; Beastmorph Alchemist gets it at 10; Druid gets it at 6, Mounted Skirmisher is move + full attack (effectively the same) when mounted and can be gained at 14 or 10 if Ranger or 1 if Sohei Monk... Really not that uncommon.
It's nice what JJ thinks. Thankfully, SKR over ruled him w/ the recent ragelancepounce ruling (paraphrasing, "yes, a full attack = a full attack, so you get your iteratives; but the heightened lance damage is from the momentum of the charge so only the 1st attack is multiplied"). I often disagree w/ SKR, but that is one thing he nailed, dead on. God forbid the full BAB classes actually get to utilize their main supposed advantage -- iterative attacks -- that'd be crazy! Nah, we'll just let druid, and eidolon/synthesist pounce with tons of natural attacks, that's MUCH fairer! They're supposed to be the kings of melee, after all, right?
He did!? O_O That will have a direct impact on my mate's character. Can you tell me where SKR affirmed this?
It is more common to encounter flying creatures than it is to encounter enemies with Wind Wall.Bah! Fickle Winds FTW!Yeah, that spell is broken. I really wish they hadn't printed it. Mages shutting down archery completely w/ no recourse other than to dispel the instant win spell... just lovely, paizo.
At least with wind wall you might be able to move around it...
Wind wall is broken considering its level. I just don't understand why you would put something like that in the game at such a low level to stop only archers.
Miss fire attack rate makes it broken. The damage is fine per attack but when you add it due # of attack that they make round after round is insane. You want fix archer and balance it out ban rapid shot, many shot, cluster shot ( broke as f### b$$$ f### s### put out by pathfinder muchkin BS )
He did!? O_O That will have a direct impact on my mate's character. Can you tell me where SKR affirmed this?There are preciously few ways for warriors to gain pounce whilst retaining a form that can make iterative attacks. James Jacob has also expressed the opinion that pounce does not work with iterative attacks. Make of that what you will. =)Well, a Synthesist has it at level 1.
Aside from that easy route, Greater Beast Totem Barb gets it at 10; Beastmorph Alchemist gets it at 10; Druid gets it at 6, Mounted Skirmisher is move + full attack (effectively the same) when mounted and can be gained at 14 or 10 if Ranger or 1 if Sohei Monk... Really not that uncommon.
It's nice what JJ thinks. Thankfully, SKR over ruled him w/ the recent ragelancepounce ruling (paraphrasing, "yes, a full attack = a full attack, so you get your iteratives; but the heightened lance damage is from the momentum of the charge so only the 1st attack is multiplied"). I often disagree w/ SKR, but that is one thing he nailed, dead on. God forbid the full BAB classes actually get to utilize their main supposed advantage -- iterative attacks -- that'd be crazy! Nah, we'll just let druid, and eidolon/synthesist pounce with tons of natural attacks, that's MUCH fairer! They're supposed to be the kings of melee, after all, right?
Nevermind, my search-fu has prevailed.
http://paizo.com/paizo/blog/2012/february
For anyone who needs reference.
wow, sounds like somebody is angry his ball bearing isn't top dps anymore. The funny part is rapid shot has been around since forever, and many shot is just a revamp of the old version, the only thing that he's b@&#%ing about thats new is clustered shot and it really only comes into play every now and hten for a smart archer with some different material arrows in his quiver.
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wow, sounds like somebody is angry his ball bearing isn't top dps anymore. The funny part is rapid shot has been around since forever, and many shot is just a revamp of the old version, the only thing that he's b&@$%ing about thats new is clustered shot and it really only comes into play every now and hten for a smart archer with some different material arrows in his quiver.
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Heh, what I find funny is that Tom finds those feats "broken" and I consider them to be an expensive feat tree that sucks up a character's available feats.
Feats are supposed to make your character better. Compare the archery feat tree with cleave, power attack, two weapon fighting, etc. They are pretty comparable.
The deal with archers is not that they do so much damage in a full attack, it's that it's so easy to build characters who can full attack virtually every round, which is harder to do with melee characters.
GMs who want to make it harder for archers to accomplish that can use terrain, cover and spells to interfere with archers. And it's a whole lot easier to negate an archer's combat contribution than it is to negate a raging, cleaving, power attacking barbarian...
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Essentially, archers are powerful because there is so much content out there for them, and absolutely all of it stacks and synergizes well with itself.
For Attack Rolls:
- Point Blank Shot
- Weapon Focus
- Greater Weapon Focus
- Up to a +5 enhancement
- Weapon Training
- Gloves of Dueling
- Greater Bracers of Archery
- Dexterity (which is worth noting because it is also terrific at helping several other aspects of your character)
- Rapid Shot (more attacks = more likely to hit)
- Snap Shot line of feats (again, more attacks)
For Damage Rolls:
- Point Blank Shot
- Weapon Specialization
- Greater Weapon Specialization
- Up to a +5 enhancement
- Weapon Training
- Gloves of Dueling
- Greater Bracers of Archery
- Strength (other ranged weapons simply don't allow this)
- Rapid Shot (more attacks = more damage)
- Snap Shot line of feats (again, more attacks = more damage)
- Combat Reflexes (for use with Snap Shot to gain ~10 more attacks a round)
- Manyshot (free extra damage!)
- Clusterd Shots (free extra damage when facing DR)
- Deadly Aim (just as good as Power Attack, but safer)
- Improved Critical for 19-20/x3 critical multiplier. Not ideal, but when you're pumping out 15+ arrows per round, something's going to crit.
- Hammer the Gap (not efficient, but still extra damage)
See what I mean? There are just SO many options that work well together for the archer. And they are easy to get too! I can fit all of the above on a single character by 15th-level, possibly earlier.
Conversely melee pouncers and similar builds have to jump through hoops to get anything similar, and are still less efficient since you can't always charge the same target every round (forcing you to charge between two different targets and lowering your DPR).
The many shot change helped some, but the big damage upper from 3.5 to pathfinder is deadly aim. Before ranged characters didn't have anything akin to power attacking, now we do =)
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The many shot change helped some, but the big damage upper from 3.5 to pathfinder is deadly aim. Before ranged characters didn't have anything akin to power attacking, now we do =)
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PSY
And with SO many stackable attack bonuses from various sources (many of which simply don't exist in other forms for other combat styles), we don't even need to worry about the penalties from Rapid Shot or Deadly Aim!
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Ok so I have a friend who helped to get me into the game is of the opinion that melee classes (particularly fighters, monks and especially barbarians) are the best at dealing damage period.
He says that there is no way an archer could push out that many attacks. So could you kind of spell it out for me so I can show him?
Here is a common archer build. Show it to him and crunch the numbers. Then compare that to a 15th-level melee build who can't make a full attack unless he stands still, or has pounce.
EDIT:
This is what I came up with for the archer's numbers. Your typical CR 15 monster has an AC of 30.
That means Dayer's iterative attacks have the following percentage chances of hitting when using Boots of Speed (or haste), Deadly Aim, and Rapid Shot: +95%/+95%/+95%/+95%/+70%.
Remember that, that first attack counts as two arrows worth of damage.
His average damage roll with a bow is 33.5. Multiplying that by the percentages above means he deals an average of 182.575 damage each round against your standard CR 15 monster if it doesn't have DR. That doesn't even account for critical hits, attacks of opportunity (the latter of which will surely occur thanks to Snap Shot and will add ~33.725 damage per such opportunity provoked), or damage bonuses from Hammer the Gap.
Let's assume that the creature does have DR, and that the archer can't bypass it for some reason. DR 20/- means that the archer still deals 196.3 points of damage (assuming one AoO during the round and no crits). Most CR 15 monsters only have ~220 hit points.
Intelligent monsters are probably fleeing at that point. Short of having teleport or some other ace up their sleeves, they will only die tired.
Dumb monsters may flee or fight, but they are dead next round, or this round if the archer has friends or a little extra luck on his damage rolls.
You might be able to get comparable damage with a strong melee build, but can said melee build get that kind of damage output with anything near the same regularity? Remember, he's got to be adjacent to his targets. If the monster runs away, the meleeist might not be able to finish it off so easily like the archer can.
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Ok so I have a friend who helped to get me into the game is of the opinion that melee classes (particularly fighters, monks and especially barbarians) are the best at dealing damage period.
He says that there is no way an archer could push out that many attacks. So could you kind of spell it out for me so I can show him?
It's not that hard to figure out. Just look at the feats.
Rapid Shot = 1 extra attack at highest bonus.
Manyshot = 1 extra attack that either hits/misses if the 1st arrow hits/misses.
Just by those 2 feats, ranged archers (not crossbowmen) get an extra 2 attacks automatically.
TWF (Two-Weapon Fighting) can get more attacks, but it's much more difficult to place a character in a position to even make all of those attacks.
One single hit would still favor melee, but when all attacks are accounted for, archery wins pretty easily.
It's also worth noting that you can't even disarm or sunder a human fighter archer of their bow anymore, not since fighters get to add +1 CMD bonus against two maneuvers of their choice EVERY LEVEL.
I think he put his favored class bonuses into HP, but Dayer above could potentially have had a CMD of 67 when it came to people attempting to disarm/sunder his bow. Even without said bonuses, it's still a whopping 52, making it no easy task.
The only thing that really cripples archers is wind wall and fickle winds. DR brought them down a notch once upon a time, but when Ultimate Combat released the Clustered Shots feat, that hindrance went up in a puff of smoke.
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It's also worth noting that you can't even disarm or sunder a human fighter archer of their bow anymore, not since fighters get to add +1 CMD bonus against two maneuvers of their choice EVERY LEVEL.
I think he put his favored class bonuses into HP, but Dayer above could potentially have had a CMD of 67 when it came to people attempting to disarm/sunder his bow. Even without said bonuses, it's still a whopping 52, making it no easy task.
The only thing that really cripples archers is wind wall and fickle winds. DR brought them down a notch once upon a time, but when Ultimate Combat released the Clustered Shots feat, that hindrance went up in a puff of smoke.
Weather in general can if you use it. I know not everyone does. Since I run a Kingmaker game, I've placed an importance on weather and terrain effects. Rain, snow, fog, and wind can be real game changers to anyone in the party.
Good point, Odraude.
Mists and fogs are great for Carrion Crown, as well. Make that detect evil work for its dinner.
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you need to understand what powerful means.
archers are not powerful, because a first level spell will take you out of the fight. obscuring mist(or any mist spell for that matter) darkness, wall spells, protection from arrows, or terrain that breaks los all stop you from doing anything. at 20th level you will get shut down by a level 1 minion protecting a balor who just cast obscuring mist for it.
basically they gave archers a trade off. be vulnerable as hell, but be able to out damage most characters as a result.
at most, fighter archers get 6 attacks ( 4 base + haste + rapidshot), with 7 arrows (babysit gives extra arrow, not an extra attack... remember that. , not 15. the extra attacks are from AoO.
high cmd doesn't mean they can't be disarmed or sundered, just that its harder to do.
as for fog, mist, cloud, and such-> goz mask. problem solved. now, need to get a way to overcome windwall. ..... large arrows + goz mask maybe, or maybe just large arrows + seeking bow.
Now if archers or ranged attackers could get Dex to damage= broken I know. :)
protection from arrows is if your not using a magic bow. the moment you get a +1 blue, PfA means nothing.
Melee with power attack, cleave , great Cleave BaB + 4 can as many targets as long as he is lucky to keep hiting and in reach and they suck -2 AC.
To get 3 attacks. Full BaB
Melee with two weapon fighting need
BaB +6 and two weapon fight feat gets 3 shots at-2/-2/-7 full BaB
Shooter need 3 feat and + 4 BaB to get 3 shoots and set up to easy.
Bottom line shooter go first kill dam near evey thing first and leave nothing for any one else to do. Archer kill evey thing and the fun. They are to good.
Cluster shoot fix each shoot after first you loss the BFN and you only get the dice. But all damage is add together to by pass DR.
And worst of all raving dork and I agree that there should mean end times are here. :)
I understand the point of balance and I realize that every class is gonna have something that they fail at but how do archers do the most damage?
How does an archer manage to push out 15+ attacks a round? Or is that a totally best of the best situational thing?
Different question -- how is the barbarian getting out 15+ attacks a round?
Because I'm doubtful. I mean I could see 4 natural attacks, plus a full spread of two weapon fighting with haste but even then he's only getting 12 and most of those aren't going to do crap damage wise.
the wierd bit about all those extra attacks from AoO's is that they only happen if somebody provokes within 15 feet of you. I'd say it's helpful for getting a little damage in on the group of guys charging you or if you can get to within 10 feet of a spellcaster that doesn't know he should be casting defensively, but 15ft isn't alot of range in my opinion unless I'm missing somehting that extends it.
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Archers are not the best DPS. They're reliable DPS, melee is much more swingy based on if they can full attack or not. With archery, you'll get consistently good numbers. A full attack 2H melee w/ power attack will beat them, though. And any melee that wants to always full attack can pretty easily get it by mid levels, either right from their class or with clever dipping.
As for most attacks with a bow... Assume the recent giant cluster**** about flurry of blows never happened. High level Sohei w/ weapon training on the bow so he can flurry with it; use a ki point for an extra attack; and also use Rapid and Manyshot. And he has boots of speed or a wand of haste w/ the Use Magic Device to use it or whatever. That Sohei (assuming he got the hell out of monk at level 8 for fighter or other full BAB...he probably ends up w/ more attacks as Sohei 20, but multiclassing out is much better) at level 20 has:
- 4 base attacks from effective BAB of 20
- 2 extra attacks from flurry
- 1 extra attack from the ki point expended
- 1 extra attack from Rapid Shot
- 1 sort of extra attack from Manyshot
- 1 extra attack from Haste
That's 10 attacks. If he went deep enough into Sohei for the 3rd flurry attack and changed alignments and entered Wild Rager Barb for 2 levels, he could push that to 12 attacks, though I don't think it's worth it. He's also eating some pretty epic penalties on his attack rolls.
Different question -- how is the barbarian getting out 15+ attacks a round?
Because I'm doubtful. I mean I could see 4 natural attacks, plus a full spread of two weapon fighting with haste but even then he's only getting 12 and most of those aren't going to do crap damage wise.
Come and Get Me + sufficiently stupid enemies = your attacks per round is only capped by your AoOs (1 + dex mod).
the wierd bit about all those extra attacks from AoO's is that they only happen if somebody provokes within 15 feet of you. I'd say it's helpful for getting a little damage in on the group of guys charging you or if you can get to within 10 feet of a spellcaster that doesn't know he should be casting defensively, but 15ft isn't alot of range in my opinion unless I'm missing somehting that extends it.
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It is still more range on AoO's than the meleer is going to get typically, it is circumstantial though.
However there is plenty to say for both sides of this -- meleers are going to have trouble with flying creatures, DR (more so than the archer now) creatures that move and attack with spell likes, darkness, difficult terrain, so on and so forth.
Each has parts it can be better at -- however most of the flaws with ranged combat (provoking, lower based damage, ability to take AoOs vulnerability of the weapon, etc) have been and can easily be addressed.
Having enough ammunition is honestly more of a problem normally and even that can be addressed fairly easily.
with a bow you can just about get around all DR with just the one weapon
melee would need 3 or 4 i believe
most baddies cant cast windwall, + start some distance away from you
deadly aim, and the much more mighty than before multi-shoot thingey, pile on damage
the newish archery feat that allows you to add up all your damage and then subject the odd DR you may not have
be a bard as well. win
Ignoring the fact that obscuring mist can't be cast directly on the balor meaning that he's going to be exposed regardless (more on this later):
Also obscuring mists is just as much a problem for the melee character as it is for the archer. It will prevent the AoO from the melee character as the balor simply steps away and then he's stuck trying to find the monster in the 20 foot radius cloud.
However even then the Balor has problems has his own flame body burns away the obscuring mist. If centered on him (somehow) then he has exactly 5 feet between him and the edge of the spell left after he burns away the adjacent mist meaning he's only getting a 20% concealment.
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So I am a relatively new player and I am wondering why it seems to be that archery is so highly regarded. I'm not only referring to the fighter archetype but to almost every class. I enjoy reading guides and I have read quite a few that the forums have to offer and it seems that regardless of class there is almost always an archery themed/centered build in it. I have also seen time and time again the praise that these types of builds get.
So what am I missing here? Why is archery thought of as one of the best types of builds for so many classes?
Archery builds are great due to many fine reasons that other posters have already stated. Here are some more:
Word Count:
Ever notice in AP's, Modules, Scenarios, etc., that there are a LOT of encounters in which the party faces off against one, two, or three enemies? Not too many of the enemy party is going to be able to break off from the front-line to damage the archer. My guess is that publishers save a great deal of money by having fewer enemy stat blocks. In any event, if the enemy party consisted of nine to twelve opponents, then the archer is going to get swarmed.
Word Count (AGAIN!):
Ever notice in AP's, Modules, Scenarios, etc., that these enemy parties frequently don't have spell-casters? Those spell-casters really add to the word count with their stat blocks. Another poster already mentioned this one actually (various spells will nullify archers), but it does bear repeating.
Lighting/Concealment/Cover:
Before I got MapTools the idea of strictly enforcing lighting and concealment typically ended with migraines. I don't doubt that there are DM's out there who can easily manage lighting/concealment in their heads... I'm not one of them. All I know is that if I see the other party has an archer that I can't directly attack, then I'm not going to make it easy for the archer by staying in a brightly lit area with no cover.
-Perry
The whole thing was a little bothersome to me because my friend gets so defensive if you even suggest that any other class could push out as much damage as a barbarian. I guess he takes it as an insult to his intelligence or something. But he disses on everything magic and I was looking at doing a cleric archer and he all but scoffed when I suggested I might be able to put out as much damage as his character who is a Goliath Barbarian.
In pathfinder he isn't going to outdamage a fighter built for damage with a barbarian. It isn't going to happen. Fighters have been purposefully put to the front of the damage class and they can regularly solo encounters with pure damage.
Barbarians aren't chumps however -- they have excellent defenses, nasty surprise options and are hard to put down... in some ways they are more the trickster combatants then fighters will every be... but when it comes to pure AC and damage fighter is where it is at now.
Of course if you go splat book city with 3.5 everything changes... but then the only real contenders are spell casters anyways.
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Ignoring the fact that obscuring mist can't be cast directly on the balor meaning that he's going to be exposed regardless (more on this later):
Also obscuring mists is just as much a problem for the melee character as it is for the archer. It will prevent the AoO from the melee character as the balor simply steps away and then he's stuck trying to find the monster in the 20 foot radius cloud.
However even then the Balor has problems has his own flame body burns away the obscuring mist. If centered on him (somehow) then he has exactly 5 feet between him and the edge of the spell left after he burns away the adjacent mist meaning he's only getting a 20% concealment.
except for the fact that you are completely wrong, in that the balor can use minnions to create patches of mist between himself and the enemy archers. why would you ASSUME he would have it on him? obscuring mist is a line of sight break. now lets assume you wernt foolish enough to take my inane situation as a literal scenario and change obscuring mist to deeper darkness.
now as you stated "Also obscuring mists is just as much a problem for the melee character as it is for the archer", which is wrong, lets assume a melee fighter willing to follow a balor, has tremor sense, blind sense/sight these would still allow the melee to fight someone. you still need line of sight to attack the balor without "guessing" as to which square to attack with seeking or improved precise when using a ranged weapon. the melee can still chase the balor and get to attack, while the pure archer is sitting back yawning.