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I would argue that Calistria may be followed in different aspects, much like some other deities. So, a trickster or one who fights while using a lot of tricks may honor Calistria at times.
Personally, I think that the Calistria as patron of the elves is a bit overblown. (Perhaps some elves might call it human propaganda or a misunderstanding.)
I would argue that Calistria may be followed in different aspects, much like some other deities. So, a trickster or one who fights while using a lot of tricks may honor Calistria at times.
Personally, I think that the Calistria as patron of the elves is a bit overblown. (Perhaps some elves might call it human propaganda or a misunderstanding.)
She's worshiped by other races, too, though she's portrayed as an elf.
Tricky, vengeful, and lustful. She's popular with lots of people wanting to live with such motivations. Given their long lives, elves would find her appealing because she fits the bill now and then for any of them. As a people, they certainly have reasons to be vengeful.
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It's easy enough to change this aspect of the setting. Just rule that Calistria has only a minor following among elves. If you want further contrast with the ‘promiscuous elf’ image you have from reading the published stuff, you could rule that that elves tend to have lower sex drives to go with their long lifespans and low fertility rates.
Desna could take Calistria’s place as a prominent deity among the elves. She’s often portrayed as an elven woman. If your elves lean towards CG, as did most AD&D ‘official’ elves, then Desna may be a better fit anyway.
Maybe some humans portray Calistria as an elf not because that goddess has any special importance among elves, but because the humans in question see elves as vengeful and seductive creatures (rather like the dangerous and tricky fairies of many old European stories).
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Maybe some humans portray Calistria as an elf not because that goddess has any special importance among elves, but because the humans in question see elves as vengeful and seductive creatures (rather like the dangerous and tricky fairies of many old European stories).
Very cool insight, and tying Calistria's fickle passionate trickster nature into the fair folk makes me like her even more.
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I always think elves must be viewed on Golarion the same way Modegans are viewed in Patrick Rothfuss' Name of the Wind and be treated stereotypically as very loose in their morals and ethics, kind of like how dwarves are always treated as gruff traditionalist. It's the sort of thing i think that makes them a bit more real. Plus I'd like to play a real prudish elf one of these days who would be terminally offended at the racial stereotype, after people constantly assume him to be lewd and act accordingly.
Also, having a goddess of lust doesn't bug me so much. Aphrodite was often portrayed in some myths as a lust goddess (she was a love goddess too, true, but she showed that aspect mostly through her son, since it was his job to make people fall in love), and she never bugged me. The capriciousness of elves is very well covered by Calistria. If anything, the only thing i object to about elves is the fact that they are quite literally aliens. It just doesn't sit well with me.
Other than that, no objections. There are plenty of cultures which considered very different things impure or pure. What one man considers lewd, another might consider standard courtesy. What one culture considers "barbaric" another culture would consider naive. Having elves be the culture that sleep around and consider carnal desire to be less sacred and less "permanent" really sticks with their general chaotic alignment. Makes sense to me. No objection.
I assume Calistra to be a haughty goddess not evil but a likely opponent of mighty heroes thinking Hera in the old hercules series. The attitude might fit many long lived arrogant elves as well, though admitedly I rather had seen the 'sexual' thing downplayed a bit.
Elves by nature being androgenous, free spirited people are likely to take an unusually casual stance on sex, in my opinion, though I do not like the attention drawn to it so much.
I miss the happy flighty elves, the happy forest people. Why are they all overly serious jerks these days?
Elves always have been overly serious jerks, more or less. Or capricious, uncaring jerks, if you play in Golarion.
You think of fairies, and then only the benign kind.
First edition disagrees
That's a long time ago.
And remember, even Tolkien's elves weren't the fairy type.
I miss the happy flighty elves, the happy forest people. Why are they all overly serious jerks these days?
I blame Norse mythology.
DnD (and nearly all popular fantasy versions of elves) have their origins in Tolkien, either directly modeled off of them, or created as an response to Tolkien's interpretation of them.
First edition disagreesThat's a long time ago.
A 'long time ago', huh?
http://www.amazon.com/Edition-Premium-Players-Handbook-Dungeons/dp/07869624 37/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&qid=1343017897&sr=8-7&keywords=ad+d+1st+e dition+players+handbook
http://www.amazon.com/Edition-Premium-Dungeon-Masters-Dungeons/dp/078696241 0/ref=pd_sim_b_4
http://www.amazon.com/Edition-Premium-Monster-Dungeons-Dragons/dp/078696242 9/ref=pd_sim_b_5
;)
But even without the reprints, AD&D 1E never went away. People have been playing it all along.
In any case, AD&D is relevant to the discussion in this thread(though not necessarily to how any indvidual DM runs his game).
For that matter, so is Tolkien, whom you brought up, Fabius.
All just IMHO, of course.
If you prefer the happy/flightly elves of the AD&D PHB, Andrew-- why not just use them?
If you also happen to prefer Pathfinder mechanics to AD&D mechanics-- that's no problem. Just combine the 'crunch' of PF and the 'fluff' of AD&D 1E.
YMMV-- And please keep in mind that I'm only offering suggestions.
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DnD (and nearly all popular fantasy versions of elves) have their origins in Tolkien, either directly modeled off of them, or created as an response to Tolkien's interpretation of them.
Actually Gygax cited "The broken sword" by Poul Anderson as one of his sources of inspiration, not only Tolkien. And the elves in that novel are the Viking kind, not the tolquineske kind.
Other sources were Three hearts and tree lions, again by Anderson, with soulless, amoral elves (and the regenerating trolls were takebn straight by that novel), the Harold Shea stories by de Campand Pratt (Viking elves, simulacron) and plenty of other material. Hardly "Tolkien only".
@ Andrew R
First edition elves where soulless, you couldn't use Raise dead on them. The wood elves were reasonably "happy flighty elves, the happy forest people", the high were reasonably friendly but not so flighty ,the grey where isolationist "overly serious jerks" and the wild were actively xenophobic.
I would like if the thread stay in the elves and their promisquity(?) and forget calistra and elven happyness level thing.
Too litle about the title was discuted =/
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It's never really come up in play, but I have always assumed that elves IMC have a low sex drive to match their low fertility and long lifespans. That applies to the species as a whole; individuals may prove exceptions to the rule.
Calistria’s roles as a trickster and goddess of vengeance fit my take on elves just fine.
What about her aspect as a goddess of lust? I’d rule that Elves worship her in that aspect not because they are a lustful race—but because they AREN’T a lustful race. They are aware that other races breed faster and in greater numbers. Quite a few of those races are competitors or enemies of the elves. Thus, a goddess who can inspire the healthy lust that leads to babies being born holds considerable appeal as an object of worship.
In many ways, she can be seen as a goddess of things necessary for survival of the race:
• Tricking enemies (because direct combat may pose too great a risk to precious elven lives)
• Striking back at/getting revenge on enemies (to discourage future attacks and to eliminate dangerous foes)
• Lust that leads to making more elves
Ignorant humans have heard of ‘elvish lust rites’ and developed a distorted idea of Calistria’s worship among the elves.
That’s how I’d handle the topic. YMMV.
I would like if the thread stay in the elves and their promisquity(?) and forget calistra and elven happyness level thing.
Too litle about the title was discuted =/
This amuses me, since the thread title used to be different, more crude, and invoked Calistra directly until the mods changed it.
Go read the first page of posts, you can see this discussion is exactly what this thread was made to be about, and also the complaints that led to the title being changed.
Calistria is the most annoying deity in PF, but only marginally beating Cayden.
Banned in games I GM.
What a killjoy! ;}
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I really think it depends on how one plays. Some elves probably are sex freaks, some probably are not (kinda like most other races). As people have said, they live longer and consequently the tend to have more partners just due to the time scales involved.
As for Calistra, whether she (or her followers) are annoying depends almost entirely on the player. A good player will play a good character, an annoying player will play an annoying character. I've only played one cleric of Calistra, and while she was occasionally a flirt and often a snarker, she was (according to the group) one of their favorite characters. She wasn't sleeping around, she wasn't a capricious jerk for the sake of being a capricious jerk (essentially anyone who plays a character who is X for the sake of X is going to be annoying, whatever X may be), and she didn't attempt to derail the party. Saying "Calistra is annoying" is much like saying "paladins are annoying." Sure, they absolutely CAN be annoying, but there is nothing intrinsic to them that says they HAVE to be annoying.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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I agree with Isonaroc. I can see a follower of Calistra taking vengeance as an art form ("Any fool can kill a tormenter. An artist can make him suffer.") sex as something enjoyable ("It's good. Better with a partner. Wonderful with a partner with cure light wounds and remove disease.") and trickery as well planned scams ("How'd you get the goblins to flee?" "A combination of ghost sound silent image and a mix of brand and arcane mark to make them think their thoughts were being written on the walls of the mine. You should be able to work in there now.").
Think Lady Heather from CSI, Inara and Nandi from Firefly, the Count of Monte Cristo, and the crew as a whole from Leverage as Calistra worshippers.
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I can see a follower of Calistra taking vengeance as an art form ("Any fool can kill a tormenter. An artist can make him suffer.")
If you had to distill my character's outlook down to a single sentence, this would probably have been it (in fact, I believe she said something almost exactly like this to the group's fighter who was content just to cut down a guy who had betrayed our party after hiring us for something). Granted, there was a lot more to her than that, but she was extraordinarily vindictive and if someone legitimately crossed her she was a force to be reckoned with. She didn't blow every slight out of proportion, she only cared about legitimate issues (e.g. she wouldn't plot the halfling's death for stealing the last chicken wing, but she would seriously mess up an employer who refused to give her payment she was due).
First edition disagreesThat's a long time ago.
And remember, even Tolkien's elves weren't the fairy type.
Except for the first ones we meet in The Hobbit: they were singing songs, laughing and being kind.
In The Hobbit elves come in three flavours: lords, warriors and fun.
...who would consider mass genocide of all the orcs a good thing. Very kind indeed.
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...who would consider mass genocide of all the orcs a good thing. Very kind indeed.
In Middle Earth, that is a kind attitude, or at least a reasonable one. Orcs are not an independent species they are broken, mind controlled/Evil Elves and, frankly, killing them is debatably a mercy, and even if it's not it's necessary for the good and safety of everyone else.
These things wouldn't be true in, say, Pathfinder, but it is in Middle Earth.
Elves always have been overly serious jerks, more or less. Or capricious, uncaring jerks, if you play in Golarion.
Didn't James Jacobs say Golarion elves were supposed to be different and he blames Tolkien for the stereotype? I guess you already covered the difference by saying Golarion elves are capricious.
DnD (and nearly all popular fantasy versions of elves) have their origins in Tolkien, either directly modeled off of them, or created as an response to Tolkien's interpretation of them.
I think Gygax said he was not a Tolkien fan. Still you're right of course but
i think a lot of it has to do with the way players role-play elven characters.
...who would consider mass genocide of all the orcs a good thing. Very kind indeed.In Middle Earth, that is a kind attitude, or at least a reasonable one. Orcs are not an independent species they are broken, mind controlled/Evil Elves and, frankly, killing them is debatably a mercy, and even if it's not it's necessary for the good and safety of everyone else.
These things wouldn't be true in, say, Pathfinder, but it is in Middle Earth.
I was never crazy about the idea that Orcs come from Elves. I know they went with that idea for the movies but I don't think it's cannon. I know Tolkien mentioned it but I think his later letters said he preferred that they had come from humans or were just their own Goblinoid race, IIRC.
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I was never crazy about the idea that Orcs come from Elves. I know they went with that idea for the movies but I don't think it's cannon. I know Tolkien mentioned it but I think his later letters said he preferred that they had come from humans or were just their own Goblinoid race, IIRC.
It originates in the Silmarillion, though, looking into it on the wiki, it's not as entirely accepted as I thought. Huh.
Still, the various theories on their origins pretty much all establish that they aren't a sapient species in their own right in the normal sense.
I think there is a deep lesson in there somewhere...
I think there is a deep lesson in there somewhere...
So very true.
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First edition disagreesThat's a long time ago.
And remember, even Tolkien's elves weren't the fairy type.
Except for the first ones we meet in The Hobbit: they were singing songs, laughing and being kind.
In The Hobbit elves come in three flavours: lords, warriors and fun.
...who would consider mass genocide of all the orcs a good thing. Very kind indeed.
Honestly, my assumption upon reading this is that you've never read The Hobbit and are just parroting stuff you've half-remembered from some other forum that is full of trolls.
I hope I am wrong and you have either mis-remembered The Hobbit or misread my post.
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I was never crazy about the idea that Orcs come from Elves. I know they went with that idea for the movies but I don't think it's cannon. I know Tolkien mentioned it but I think his later letters said he preferred that they had come from humans or were just their own Goblinoid race, IIRC....who would consider mass genocide of all the orcs a good thing. Very kind indeed.In Middle Earth, that is a kind attitude, or at least a reasonable one. Orcs are not an independent species they are broken, mind controlled/Evil Elves and, frankly, killing them is debatably a mercy, and even if it's not it's necessary for the good and safety of everyone else.
These things wouldn't be true in, say, Pathfinder, but it is in Middle Earth.
Well, it certainly blew me away :D
As for elven promiscuity, it appears that elves are, like in many fantasy settings, not terribly prolific, and probably have to have a lot of sex before 'one takes.' Biologically, it would make sense they have a strong libido, if they've got to have sex a thousand times before someone gets pregnant.Good theory, though one wonders if it's the males or females (or somehow a combination of the two) that lacks a human-like fertility. If they're so highly active, then it can't be that female elves don't ovulate as often, or that the males have under-active... meiosis. (Trying to keep this PG; not exactly sure what terminology is considered 'decent'.)
Half elves come out of a mix, so I would think they have to be similar enough in that regard.
I like this theory but my spin is Elf+Elf takes many times or at a few 'special' times in thier life cycle. But add a human in and its off to the races. Though humans in fantasy seem to be the breeding factory of 'almost' everything...but that's another story. I mean I think if a Rust Monster got with a human it'd....um...nevermind, back to elves.
This reminds me: In Andrzej Sapkowski Witcher elves were naturally fertile very-very rarely, when comparing to humans. However, an elven wizard that discuss that matter with Geralt mentions that contact with humans triggered unexpected biological response and elven women having sexual contact with human males had much increased fertility - which lead to great number of half elves early in the elf-human contact history.
It also saved humans, who just fled from another world, from being vanquished by elves in the first place. Humans took their time and gathered strength to sweep elves from their cities and push them east into wilderness.
Calistra would be a very good deity for The Witcher's elves, who are arrogant, bitter and hateful of humans. Never mind the elves done the same to dwarves and gnomes a few thousand years before.
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First edition disagreesThat's a long time ago.
And remember, even Tolkien's elves weren't the fairy type.
Except for the first ones we meet in The Hobbit: they were singing songs, laughing and being kind.
In The Hobbit elves come in three flavours: lords, warriors and fun.
...who would consider mass genocide of all the orcs a good thing. Very kind indeed.
Honestly, my assumption upon reading this is that you've never read The Hobbit and are just parroting stuff you've half-remembered from some other forum that is full of trolls.
I hope I am wrong and you have either mis-remembered The Hobbit or misread my post.
Well, some of didn't treat the dwarves very well. I suspect orcs would have fared even worse.
No one in the Hobbit or LotR even suggests mercy to orcs. The men in Sauron's service (or Saruman's) surrender and are treated well. The orcs/goblins flee or get slaughtered.
I was writing specifically about the first group of elves met in The Hobbit. More broadly, there are no orcs in The Hobbit and the only elven interaction with goblins is in the Battle of Five Armies.
In any case, I would be intrigued to see these genocide quotes.
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I miss the happy flighty elves, the happy forest people. Why are they all overly serious jerks these days?Elves always have been overly serious jerks, more or less. Or capricious, uncaring jerks, if you play in Golarion.
You think of fairies, and then only the benign kind.
Not so much jerks in Tolkien's age, but they always came off condescending.
Eh, they seemed to treat layabouts like the hobbits well enough. Then again, Tolkien did seem to have a thing about the "back to nature/past" types.
As for Callistria, I think the concept is mostly ok - it could use some pruning, but then again I usually don't read all the information from non-core books. A deity of desire, trickery, and vengeance can work for elves - especially when it isn't the only possible option.
Now, my problem with elves is why a race that is at least partly composed of wilderness-dwelling rangers with no advanced societies have a bonus to intelligence and a penalty to constitution... as opposed to, say, a bonus to wisdom and a penalty to strength (have you seen a buff elf?) or intelligence (you know, all those tribal societies).
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Now, my problem with elves is why a race that is at least partly composed of wilderness-dwelling rangers with no advanced societies have a bonus to intelligence and a penalty to constitution... as opposed to, say, a bonus to wisdom and a penalty to strength (have you seen a buff elf?) or intelligence (you know, all those tribal societies).
They are a back to nature civilization, not a civilization that has never developed urbanization. Their civilization has developed to the point where they can disperse again and still keep most of the advantages of a urbanized civilization.
And independently from the "we have been there for thousand of years" argument, they aren't Golarion native. They have come from another world. What we see are colonies that still depend from the motherland for part of their culture.
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You know any images of Elven promiscuity is really all just an act, a sham, a fraud. There's an ulterior motive: beat the short-lived wastrels at their own game. By siring half-breeds with the rabble, they can create a faster breeding kin to make up their armies for when they come out of their forest hiding places and assume their rightful positions of rulership in what is today the world of man.
Heck, even right now as we speak, elven patriarchs and matriarchs are assuming positions of power in our noble houses. By human standards, an elf can live forever, and do you know how many social organizations are ranked by seniority?
I can only shudder at how much control they will have over us in a few generations. They're insidious; the only thing more insidious are those shifty dwarves and how dependent they're making our magic-based economy go bankrupt with their ever rising gem prices (25K for a resurrection?! Where do you even GET that expensive of a gem?!)
They are a back to nature civilization, not a civilization that has never developed urbanization. Their civilization has developed to the point where they can disperse again and still keep most of the advantages of a urbanized civilization.
And independently from the "we have been there for thousand of years" argument, they aren't Golarion native. They have come from another world. What we see are colonies that still depend from the motherland for part of their culture.
Is that really the case, though? Outside Kyonin there are elven enclaves with no mentioned contact with the homeland, which are as far as we are told quite isolationist. As far as I am aware, there are no instances of migration to other elven communities, and there are elven tribes mentioned that never joined, even for the retreat (i.e. the elves of the Mwangi expanse)
Even if they did go back to nature (as opposed to never leaving it), the fact is that most elves outside of Kyonin have for centuries (if not millenia?)lived lives with a fair amount of physical exposure and very little formalized intellectual tradition, yet they are somehow frail and studious.
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Calistria is about jealous, spiteful and vengeful lust, not love. Not quite the same thing.Exactly right.
It's a snarky annoying deity; if it was "Miss Free Love" there would be no problem, but as written she's just a horrible person on every level.
Its like some kind of Jersey Shore Goddess.
She isn't a person.
She is an archetype, an aspect of elven (and human) nature.
She is aphrodite, lifted and slid into whole into a fantasy setting.
Just like Aphrodite, she is vain, ill-tempered and easily offended. No doubt, just like aphrodite she would start wars that shake the world, just to win a contest of beauty.
In short she rocks as a story telling tool.
I had some trouble wrapping my head around Calistria until I started reading Song of Ice and Fire, and now I just tell myself that she's the quintessential Dornish woman, but paler and with pointy ears.