Promiscuous Elves?


Lost Omens Campaign Setting General Discussion

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Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

[off topic]... No Comment.[/off topic]

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Adam Daigle wrote:
DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:

Nothing is true, everything is permitted.

De Ja Vu much?

[off topic]Please tell me you're using that line because of Hassan I Sabbah and not that silly video game.[/off topic]

[off topic]You're interested in Ismailism?[/off topic]

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Ismailism? That's some kind of mailing subculture?

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Gorbacz wrote:
Ismailism? That's some kind of mailing subculture?

Hassan I Sabbah was an Ismailist missionary. It's a branch of Islam.

Silver Crusade

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Aaaaaand knowing is half the battle!

Grand Lodge

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Adam Daigle wrote:
DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:

Nothing is true, everything is permitted.

De Ja Vu much?

[off topic]Please tell me you're using that line because of Hassan I Sabbah and not that silly video game.[/off topic]

People should read more.

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TriOmegaZero wrote:
Adam Daigle wrote:
DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:

Nothing is true, everything is permitted.

De Ja Vu much?

[off topic]Please tell me you're using that line because of Hassan I Sabbah and not that silly video game.[/off topic]
People should read more.

Which books would you recommend, for Hassan I Sabbah?

Silver Crusade

I've been looking over the prostituting argument and seeing how it is considered "demeaning to women"
....

I'm pretty sure Calli's temples are more equal oppertunity. you know there CAN be male prostitutes

Grand Lodge

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GeraintElberion wrote:
Which books would you recommend, for Hassan I Sabbah?

I'm people too. :(

Grand Lodge

Thorri Grimbeard wrote:
EntrerisShadow wrote:
But definitely some sort of subjugation. Would you trust children to rule? Unrepentant felons? That's how elves would see human beings.

Must they see them that way? You can write it that way if you want, it is fantasy, but I don't think you have to.

EntrerisShadow wrote:
It's true, my biggest gripe is that every elf is a carbon copy. I'm actually eager to read some of these dark (not drow) elves you speak of, because every elf I've come across in fantasy has been good.

You haven't read The Silmarillion, have you?

I have read The Silmarillion, actually, though I must confess it has been a while, and I didn't quite 'get' all of it. Also read Lord of the Rings, although I'm of the (I'm aware very unpopular) opinion that the books aren't that good.

From what I do recall of it, though, although the elves were less forestry and nature and more righteous vengeance, they were still 100% good. The only 'evil' elves were actually orcs. Comparing Tolkien elves to D&D elves seems less Good vs Evil, more Old Testament versus New Testament


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EntrerisShadow wrote:

I have read The Silmarillion, actually, though I must confess it has been a while, and I didn't quite 'get' all of it. Also read Lord of the Rings, although I'm of the (I'm aware very unpopular) opinion that the books aren't that good.

From what I do recall of it, though, although the elves were less forestry and nature and more righteous vengeance, they were still 100% good. The only 'evil' elves were actually orcs. Comparing Tolkien elves to D&D elves seems less Good vs Evil, more Old Testament versus New Testament

If by good you mean murdering many Teleri to steal their ships, then yes, Feanor and his kin were 100% good.


EntrerisShadow wrote:
Thorri Grimbeard wrote:
EntrerisShadow wrote:
But definitely some sort of subjugation. Would you trust children to rule? Unrepentant felons? That's how elves would see human beings.

Must they see them that way? You can write it that way if you want, it is fantasy, but I don't think you have to.

EntrerisShadow wrote:
It's true, my biggest gripe is that every elf is a carbon copy. I'm actually eager to read some of these dark (not drow) elves you speak of, because every elf I've come across in fantasy has been good.

You haven't read The Silmarillion, have you?

I have read The Silmarillion, actually, though I must confess it has been a while, and I didn't quite 'get' all of it. Also read Lord of the Rings, although I'm of the (I'm aware very unpopular) opinion that the books aren't that good.

From what I do recall of it, though, although the elves were less forestry and nature and more righteous vengeance, they were still 100% good. The only 'evil' elves were actually orcs. Comparing Tolkien elves to D&D elves seems less Good vs Evil, more Old Testament versus New Testament

Tolkien's elves are fundamentally good people. But they are part of the fallen world and thus susceptible to temptation and corruption. Much of the disaster of the Wars of the Jewels lay in how that temptation and corruption played out. The Oath of Feanor and the Doom of Mandos drove them to distrust and fight among each other, making Morgoth's life much easier. Pride and arrogance helped too.

By the time of the Lord of the Rings, the remaining Noldor had learned a bit. Or possibly the worst had just been killed off.

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Okay, the argument that Calistria is more then Lust and Vengeance kinda falls apart, when so much of the flavor text concerning her religion, taken from both Gods and Magic, and then Faiths of Balance, revolves around her temples being mostly used for Prostitution.

I believe the trope for that is "Best Known for the Fanservice." Maybe if more effort was being put into depicting Calistria as a goddess of Trickery in general, we wouldn't be so focused on her being a sex goddess.

And as for Calistria being a Chaotic Neutral with Chaotic Good followers, I'll agree with that. But at the same time, she also has CE Anti-Paladins in the Faiths of Corruption sourcebook, and since there's no CG equivalent to the Paladin, this leaves her faith without any sort of dedicated Holy Warriors.


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The odd thing about the Calistrian (& Gorumite for that matter) Anti-Paladins is that Oaths-wise (I realize the inherent Irony in Anti-Paladins & Oaths, but go with it) they seem effectively less Evil, more massively Chaotic.

I haven't read the Abadaran Paladin code (& they have yet to publish an Irori code), but it would be interesting to compare & contrast them.


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Viktyr Korimir wrote:
3.5 Loyalist wrote:
Indeed, you can play and give as much attention to canon as you wish. Adventurers don't even have to rub against the typical canon elf.
Wish someone would tell my players that. They spend at least half their time every gaming session trying to rub elves. Usually in temples of Calistria.

Something might be wrong with your party. Golarion elves look wrong, so alien, almost bug-like and the ears are enormous. They need help, lol.


lonewolf23k wrote:

Okay, the argument that Calistria is more then Lust and Vengeance kinda falls apart, when so much of the flavor text concerning her religion, taken from both Gods and Magic, and then Faiths of Balance, revolves around her temples being mostly used for Prostitution.

I believe the trope for that is "Best Known for the Fanservice." Maybe if more effort was being put into depicting Calistria as a goddess of Trickery in general, we wouldn't be so focused on her being a sex goddess.

And as for Calistria being a Chaotic Neutral with Chaotic Good followers, I'll agree with that. But at the same time, she also has CE Anti-Paladins in the Faiths of Corruption sourcebook, and since there's no CG equivalent to the Paladin, this leaves her faith without any sort of dedicated Holy Warriors.

Hmmm, I see. Some claim she is a trickery goddess first, but the flavour text says the temples are used for turning tricks.

As an aside, CG can easily become CE if they go too far down the chaotic murder-hole (which is a Callistrian dungeon btw, or at least, will be soon *scribbles something down*). CN is all over the place and can engage in evil as long as it isn't a total fixation all the time. The selfish individualist of a sex-trick goddess is not going to be "nice" (only nice in bed). Chaotic I agree can indeed get pretty far from good, in following emotion and certainty and what feels right or warranted.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
3.5 Loyalist wrote:
Viktyr Korimir wrote:
3.5 Loyalist wrote:
Indeed, you can play and give as much attention to canon as you wish. Adventurers don't even have to rub against the typical canon elf.
Wish someone would tell my players that. They spend at least half their time every gaming session trying to rub elves. Usually in temples of Calistria.
Something might be wrong with your party. Golarion elves look wrong, so alien, almost bug-like and the ears are enormous. They need help, lol.

That's because they *are* aliens.


Yep. Which makes Golarion sticking with a lot of the feel of Tolkien, but making them aliens a strange choice. We will mess with their origin story, make them bug-eyed give them giant-leaf ears, but stick with a lot of the rest.

??

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It's OK, nobody's gonna punch you for not liking them.


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Samnell wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:

BTW 2: the age tables are very problematic. The elves aren't "eternally young", they are eternally old, most of their lifespan is spent in the old and venerable age brackets. And another big crunch being children. The "eternally young" are the dwarf. They have 85 years of adulthood against 65 years for the elves.

I've never quite understood why the elves have such an extremely short adulthood. It seems way out of whack.

The most a human can expect to live is 110 years, of which 20 (~18% of lifespan) is spent in their prime. An average human will live to 91, which changes the prime time to ~22%

The most an elf can expect to live is 750 years, of which 65 (~9% their lifespan) is spent in their prime. An average elf lives to 552, which changes the prime to time ~12%.

A species that had more or less typical development but just lived a lot longer should have bigger numbers but at least close to the same relative proportions.

It's downright weird.

I agree with this. Several years ago I worked up a revised set of aging tables for just this reason. You can find them over at Grand OGL Wiki's (now Purple Duck Games's) archive of their old DM Sketchpad feature (the December 11th, 2009 entry). I'd repost it here, but apparently this message board can't handle tables.


Umbral Reaver wrote:
Dionysus is about generous, free love and joy, frequently a hero helping people against oppression of worthy pleasures. He's actually much closer to Cayden Cailean. Calistria is about jealous, spiteful and vengeful lust, not love. Not quite the same thing.

I don't think we are talking about the same Dionysus -- I distinctly remember parts about the women in his parties going around and violently ripping people apart. Dionysus isn't some benign party god of hippies, he the god of wild abandon and drunkenness... the good and bad of it.


It occurs to me that Calistria is probably a libertarian.

Spoiler:
Because the thread doesn't train wreck enough for me yet.


Hannya Shou wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
Hannya Shou wrote:
I can imagine the Calistrians would have standards though
For example. Very NSFW.
Whatever that Sap is that can take away barbarian rage, I want it now.

Sap of Admonishment

Aura faint enchantment; CL 3rd
Slot --; Price 14,301 gp; Weight 2 lb.
DESCRIPTION
This +1 sap is a powerful weapon against those who wield emotions as a weapon or shield. Anytime someone is struck by the sap of admonishment, they must make a DC 14 Will save or be affected as per a calm emotions spell for 3 rounds.
CONSTRUCTION
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RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32

I removed a post. Referencing Pathfinder books is cool, as is paraphrasing or brief snippets of text. Huge walls of copy & paste are not cool.

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Ross Byers wrote:
I removed a post. Referencing Pathfinder books is cool, as is paraphrasing or brief snippets of text. Huge walls of copy & paste are not cool.

Sorry, I suppose I should have posted: Buy Plague of Shadows, it is an awesome novel (it really is) and has a cool encounter in a Temple of Calistra which showcases different attitudes to her faith.

So, yeah, everyone!
Buy Plague of Shadows, it is an awesome novel (it really is) and has a cool encounter in a Temple of Calistra which showcases different attitudes to her faith.

Liberty's Edge

Abraham spalding wrote:
It occurs to me that Calistria is probably a libertarian.

No no no... You're confusing it with Libertine. :3

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Gorbacz wrote:
It's OK, nobody's gonna punch you for not liking them.

The Stig:{punches 3.5 Loyalist}

Gorbacz Hood: "Is... is that absolutely necessary?"
The Stig: ...


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Gorbacz Hood: "What did he say?"
Me: "He said 'yeah, he's afraid it is.'"
Gorbacz Hood: "Ah. Fine, fine..."


Half the folks I play with are big Game of Thrones fans, so...

Spoiler:
Danaerys is totally Calistrian in outlook, imo. She cares about herself, her (chosen) family and their happiness, and their power and safety. And if someone crosses her, she will have NO mercy but burn them alive or lock them in a safe to die slowly.

It's the utter lack of mercy when wronged that makes her a goddess of vengeance, not of justice.

As far as promiscuous elves go, I'd posit that a world with as little cultural gender distinction as Golarion would necessarily be a world whose inhabitants were in very good control of their reproduction. (Not that any group I know actually plays that way -- much more fun to become pregnant with half-trolls, half-satyrs, half flail snails...)

Silver Crusade

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Thanks Slaad, made my day at 6 AM in the morning <3

Dark Archive

Set wrote:
My own view of Calistria is colored by my seeing her as Anya(nka), from Buffy, the 'Patron Saint of Scorned Women,' so my own baggage / assumptions make it harder for me to see her as being as open to CG clergy as she would be to CE clergy.

Back about five years ago when Pathfinder/Golarion was still in it's infancy, I pictured Calistria as part Greek Furies/The Kindly Ones, part Elven Aruashnee (Lolth ... Er, Lloth, before she fell and became Lolth ... Lloth).

Now I just picture her as Loviatar with a permanent PMS temper and call it a day.


baron arem heshvaun wrote:
Set wrote:
My own view of Calistria is colored by my seeing her as Anya(nka), from Buffy, the 'Patron Saint of Scorned Women,' so my own baggage / assumptions make it harder for me to see her as being as open to CG clergy as she would be to CE clergy.

Back about five years ago when Pathfinder/Golarion was still in it's infancy, I pictured Calistria as part Greek Furies/The Kindly Ones, part Elven Aruashnee (Lolth ... Er, Lloth, before she fell and became Lolth ... Lloth).

Now I just picture her as Loviatar with a permanent PMS temper and call it a day.

Wouldn't that be stepping on Zon-Kuthon's toes? (minus permanent PMS temper)

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Drejk wrote:
Wouldn't that be stepping on Zon-Kuthon's toes? (minus permanent PMS temper)

I have always subscribed more to the original Finnish Loviatar concept than the later (3.0) Forgotten Realms iteration of the goddess.


Calistra .... Goddess of Jealous Fools, Perverts and Whores. Easiest way to pick a fight with an Elf is to describe her that way.

And she's not 'Evil'. Just very, very selfish and self-absorbed. Kinda makes me wonder if she 'incarnated' that way or there was a period in history where Calistra wasn't a selfish, manipultive sex-and-status obsessed Goddess.


I honestly find Calistra to be the least likable of the Core Gods.

Before anyone points out evil gods let me just say that there is "hero likable" and "villain likable".

Silver Crusade

The Mysterious Stranger wrote:
there is "hero likable" and "villain likable".

Hoping to pull off both in a post later tonight!


Mikaze wrote:
The Mysterious Stranger wrote:
there is "hero likable" and "villain likable".
Hoping to pull off both in a post later tonight!

I would ask what you mean, but I assume that would ruin the surprise.

[offtopic] Assassin's Creed is "silly"? That's news to me. :/ [/offtopic]

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
KestlerGunner wrote:

I do think the prostitution thing is really ugly. Paizo writers need to do some actual research about the real social cost of prostitution before they pollute the setting with unrealistic ideas about 'sacred prostitutes'.

If you`re going to argue that it`s *not* prostitution, because it`s some sort of completely different spiritual practice, then come up with a different word or cultural practice for their sexual behaviour. Don`t say prostitution but different! because that`s arguably worse than 100 pictures of chain mail bikinis.

I ignore the lore about Calistria mostly, and reimagine her as an Elf goddess female version of FLCL`s Haruhara. That works for me. *shrugs*

ALthough I appreciate peoples' concerns about prostitution, there are many pre-christian cultures and modern non-western cultures that feel entirely different about sex and sexuality. One of the very earliest stories "Gilgamesh" has a temple prostitute and it in no way relates to the "all women line up and have to have sex with someone" story referenced by Heroditus which is disturbing by most peoples standards probably because it appears forced upon the women.

I think there is room in a fantasy setting for a religion focused on sex since it seems certain that this is not too far from some historic religions, not to mention some of the free love/sex movements that have occured periodically most recently in the 60's and 70's. It seems to me it is the money/religion part of it that most people have a problem with. Calistrans are the way they are because they choose to be.

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Pyrrhic Victory wrote:
Calistrans are the way they are because they choose to be.

And that's the bottom line, right there. Nobody is dragged off to a Calistrian nunnery and set to servicing the various wealthy men the church is seeking to court.

Any elf who wants a less brothel-y religion can choose to worship Nethys, Desna, Ketephys, Findeladlara, or Yuelral, or even a (gasp) non-elven-traditional god like Sarenrae or Shelyn or Gozreh or Cayden or Norgorber.

I can at least see why, people being people, someone like Calistria would have no shortage of people looking for a little payback (or a consequence-free 'live for tonight, for tomorrow we'll pretend we don't know each other and that it never happened' sex life), calling her 800 number, unlike Rovagug or Groetus or Zyphus or Droskar.

Droskar is like, crazy. "Yes, I worship the god of back-breaking toil and sub-standard goods. 'Work twice as hard for something half as good,' that's our motto!"

Really, between Calistria and Cayden, Golarion has gods of sex and beer, hookers and blow, it just needs a god of rock and roll. Shelyn may be a music goddess, but I cannot see her banging her head. Perhaps somewhere between Zon-Kuthon and Shelyn, there's potential... (A conjoined church of Zon-Kuthon and Shelyn would be a freaky, freaky thing, and I like it!)


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Milani, obviously, would be the god of punks (at least first-generation punks).

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Pyrrhic Victory wrote:


ALthough I appreciate peoples' concerns about prostitution, there are many pre-christian cultures and modern non-western cultures that feel entirely different about sex and sexuality. One of the very earliest stories "Gilgamesh" has a temple prostitute and it in no way relates to the "all women line up and have to have sex with someone" story referenced by Heroditus which is disturbing by most peoples standards probably because it appears forced upon the women.

Don't forget, the Herodotus stuff in this thread is based on a wikipedia article which quotes out of context. As another poster pointed out, this was a ruse for young lovers to have pre-marital sex. And, as I pointed out, Herodotus could be salacious and sensationalist when writing about far-away cultures he never visited.


Well in response to the original question...Humans just come in so many yummy flavors =D Can you really blame the elves ;)


Set wrote:
Pyrrhic Victory wrote:
Calistrans are the way they are because they choose to be.

And that's the bottom line, right there. Nobody is dragged off to a Calistrian nunnery and set to servicing the various wealthy men the church is seeking to court.

Any elf who wants a less brothel-y religion can choose to worship Nethys, Desna, Ketephys, Findeladlara, or Yuelral, or even a (gasp) non-elven-traditional god like Sarenrae or Shelyn or Gozreh or Cayden or Norgorber.

I can at least see why, people being people, someone like Calistria would have no shortage of people looking for a little payback (or a consequence-free 'live for tonight, for tomorrow we'll pretend we don't know each other and that it never happened' sex life), calling her 800 number, unlike Rovagug or Groetus or Zyphus or Droskar.

Droskar is like, crazy. "Yes, I worship the god of back-breaking toil and sub-standard goods. 'Work twice as hard for something half as good,' that's our motto!"

Really, between Calistria and Cayden, Golarion has gods of sex and beer, hookers and blow, it just needs a god of rock and roll. Shelyn may be a music goddess, but I cannot see her banging her head. Perhaps somewhere between Zon-Kuthon and Shelyn, there's potential... (A conjoined church of Zon-Kuthon and Shelyn would be a freaky, freaky thing, and I like it!)

I think it would be funny if a god like Torag was secretly the god of rock and roll.

Silver Crusade

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The Mysterious Stranger wrote:
Mikaze wrote:
The Mysterious Stranger wrote:
there is "hero likable" and "villain likable".
Hoping to pull off both in a post later tonight!

I would ask what you mean, but I assume that would ruin the surprise.

Spoiler:
This!

Basically aimed to combine both in the same character. :)

Silver Crusade

Set wrote:


Really, between Calistria and Cayden, Golarion has gods of sex and beer, hookers and blow, it just needs a god of rock and roll. Shelyn may be a music goddess, but I cannot see her banging her head. Perhaps somewhere between Zon-Kuthon and Shelyn, there's potential... (A conjoined church of Zon-Kuthon and Shelyn would be a freaky, freaky thing, and I like it!)

Wide swaths of electronic and industrial music could very well have spawned from that last part.

Said this elsewhere, but heading over into other genres this makes me wonder again whether "Sweet Surrender" would count as a Shelynite song, a Kuthonite hymn, or both.


Pyrrhic Victory wrote:


I think there is room in a fantasy setting for a religion focused on sex since it seems certain that this is not too far from some historic religions, not to mention some of the free love/sex movements that have occured periodically most recently in the 60's and 70's. It seems to me it is the money/religion part of it that most people have a problem with. Calistrans are the way they are because they choose to be.

I never claimed I had a problem with the religion EXISTING in the setting... My problem was it's 'prominence,' in regard to the elven civilization.

Gods of Lust are a part of most polytheistic religions, But to say it is one of thier 'main gods' is a bit distasteful.


I thought I would mention that I like Calistria just fine. I don't recall any of my characters following her (perhaps because I primarily play monk characters) - but she's 100% acceptable in my books. The gods and goddesses serve the purpose of covering wide (all?) aspects of life (and death). Removing Calistria from the pantheon (or relegating her to some subtier) would leave a gaping hole in the continuum.


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phantom1592 wrote:
Gods of Lust are a part of most polytheistic religions, But to say it is one of thier 'main gods' is a bit distasteful.

I respectfully disagree. Given a subjective puritan or conservative moral standard, then certainly yes. But given an objective measurement where gods are afforded prominence based on the prevalence of their portfolio in the world, then no. Calistria is a splendid goddess who caters for some of the most important activities that control (human) lives on a continuous basis.

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phantom1592 wrote:
Pyrrhic Victory wrote:


I think there is room in a fantasy setting for a religion focused on sex since it seems certain that this is not too far from some historic religions, not to mention some of the free love/sex movements that have occured periodically most recently in the 60's and 70's. It seems to me it is the money/religion part of it that most people have a problem with. Calistrans are the way they are because they choose to be.

I never claimed I had a problem with the religion EXISTING in the setting... My problem was it's 'prominence,' in regard to the elven civilization.

Gods of Lust are a part of most polytheistic religions, But to say it is one of thier 'main gods' is a bit distasteful.

But she's not. Elves worship Desna a bunch too. They also worship a like three hipster elf deities you've probably never hear of.


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My opinion may not count for much what with being a shameless perv who runs games with spouse and room-mate devoid of censoring or restraint and whatnot, but I like Calistria as written, seeing her in specific (and the Gods in general) as being more than capable of exemplifying 'X to the Nth' for multiple concepts and facets of their portfolios. Yes, she's a deity of Lust - some focus on that to the exclusion of all others. Yet she's also a deity of Vengeance, and some focus on that to the exclusion of all others. Others obsess over her Trickery aspect, which is also fully acceptable. The key lynchpin, the point that holds the works together in ways we can't entirely comprehend with our mortal minds (or at least the character's minds, while we metagame above them) is that deities are literally entities capable of being more than one quality AT ONCE.

I keep reading certain opinions and get the impression that they only see one aspect or another being at the fore at any given time, that there's a false dichotomy guiding their perspective that the Savored Sting is only capable of being Slutty McSluttyslattern, OR Princess of PMS, at any given moment. This does not parse to me - as much as I see, for example, the discussions of Norgorber go in the direction of making him seem like four separate entities altogether, I can't for the life of me imagine why it is that other deities are necessarily perceived the same way, rather than existing in multiple 'modes' at the same time. Just because Mr. Hides Behind Masks and Murders and Kills for Fun likes to compartmentalize his workings doesn't mean everyone else does the same thing.

Carrying over to the worshiper angle, there are certainly libertines and hedonists who would favor the Savored Sting, as well as the vengeance-hunters who find that their work is gratifying and profitable, but I could see Calistria also being the goddess that spurs on many would-be benevolent vigilantes...and just as many femme fatale assassins who collect their payments in pleasures and blood. The common uniting factor of 'Live life on YOUR terms', which strikes me as the most elven aspect of her, is all that's really needed to have in common, as she's Chaotic, which means not having the inclination to establish hierarchy, dogma, or other such structured things. Easy to worship, enjoyable to serve, what more could you ask for?

As mentioned, however, I'm really the wrong person to be commenting, given I've had the heretical project in mind of taking the classic dwarven deities, with a slight modification to make the Hearth Mother archetype as much a keeper of the fires of home as a bringer of the COMFORTS of home to the field, to go with a little story I'd written about such a thing that was called 'Squad Wife'.

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