Toilcrafter: This trait sucks. Your interpretation IS correct, and note that you'll only ever be able to make +1 items with this trait, unless you also pick up Master Craftsman feat, which...obsoletes this trait. So, level 1-4 it does nothing, level 5 it works, by level 8 (anyone that wants a +2 or +1 weapon of X property tends to obtain it by level 8 IME) it's worthless again. Orange at best. Do you really want to blow a trait and a feat just to make +1 weapons and armor and never anything better?
Are you putting Torag's specific traits in its own area? Defensive Strategist is amazing, it's basically Uncanny Dodge as a trait.
Holly crap. I have never seen the Master Craftsman feat. It does totally blow this trait out the water and both cant be used until 5th level. That will change the ranking to Green, and I will link that feat in the description. Thanks for pointing out that feat. Really really cool.
Yes Torag will have his own section as I believe he does not count as one of the Dwarf Religious Trait gods... just his kin.
The skill traits fall into two groups: those that make the skill a class skill (and give +1 as well) and those that give a flat bonus (often to multiple skills) but don't make it a class skill.
The general point about the first group is that they only give a significant benefit (ie +3+1, better than Skill Focus!) if
a) you don't already have it as a class skill (duh), and most class niches already have their required skills.
b) you're going to invest at least one skill point in it, which requires that you HAVE spare skill points
c) you can continue to invest enough points to make it viable at the chosen level.
d) it's useful to your party, as Merkatz pointed out.
Taking point b, you have to consider what classes can take advantage of this sort of trait. Generally, it's not the 2-point ones like cleric, paladin, fighter and sorcerer. And likewise it's not the ones that dump Int, like Monk, Barbarian or Druid. What this means is that you want to find skills that are useful and non-class to rogues, bards, rangers and wizards.
Add in things like armour and dependent stat and some otherwise good skills become much less useful (Stealth and Acrobatics, I'm looking at you).
Taking point c, some skills need a heavy investment to be at all useful (UMD and stealth) but some don't (Heal). Others are good (Perception), medium (Knowledges) or poor (Craft) at any level of investment.
So I wouldn't put any of them (except maybe Perception) above blue, and some otherwise very appetizing ones (UMD, Stealth) get dropped to orange. And Heal is actually fairly OK (green?) if you have decent Wis and otherwise limited healing.
Mudfoot, I disagree with your inclusion of Paladin and Fighter. As a either I would absolutely want perception as a class skill.
In any case, I believe that color coding should be about the skills general usefulness to all classes that do not have it already. Not a judgement of if that class is able to take it (intelligence or the human bonus helps in that).
- Gauss
Holly crap. I have never seen the Master Craftsman feat. It does totally blow this trait out the water and both cant be used until 5th level. That will change the ranking to Green, and I will link that feat in the description. Thanks for pointing out that feat. Really really cool.
And Master Craftsman is actually a really horrible feat. You pay a feat just for the privilege of spending another feat 2 levels later so you can finally actually do something. That's abysmal!
Caster can just take Craft A&A straight out, and has the option of taking other craft feats, too. I consider MC a trap option, and a feat that should only ever be taken as an absolute, desperate last resort (DM is super stingy with treasure, no magic walmarts, and there's either no caster or he's unwilling to spend a feat to help the melee's out; and in that sort of senario, I'd still not take the feat and just roll up a caster...). And yet Toilcrafter is utter garbage compared to MC... Sure, traits are supposed to be half a feat. But that's worth less than half of MC, and MC is a bad feat to begin with.But, rate it whatever you like...
Would any GM ever let their players have Finding Haleen? And if they did, would any player in that group not take that trait?
You might want to add a rating above purple for 'better than a feat'.
My take on Finding Haleen is that it is an early version of what later became the favored class bonus.
The question is what to do about it. I think I would tone that trait down somehow. But, since Im not running LoF it isnt an issue for me yet.
- Gauss
Holly crap. I have never seen the Master Craftsman feat. It does totally blow this trait out the water and both cant be used until 5th level. That will change the ranking to Green, and I will link that feat in the description. Thanks for pointing out that feat. Really really cool.And Master Craftsman is actually a really horrible feat. You pay a feat just for the privilege of spending another feat 2 levels later so you can finally actually do something. That's abysmal!
Caster can just take Craft A&A straight out, and has the option of taking other craft feats, too. I consider MC a trap option, and a feat that should only ever be taken as an absolute, desperate last resort (DM is super stingy with treasure, no magic walmarts, and there's either no caster or he's unwilling to spend a feat to help the melee's out; and in that sort of senario, I'd still not take the feat and just roll up a caster...). And yet Toilcrafter is utter garbage compared to MC... Sure, traits are supposed to be half a feat. But that's worth less than half of MC, and MC is a bad feat to begin with.But, rate it whatever you like...
I wouldn't say its a horrible feat for say a dwarven fighter who wanted to craft his own armor and weapons. Very iconic. Is it the best feat in the world... no. But it doesn't have to be for it to be fun.
I think the trait falls in the same vein. If anything it deserves a green rating for just being something unique and different then the billion +1 to this and +2 to that.
My take on Finding Haleen is that it is an early version of what later became the favored class bonus.
The question is what to do about it. I think I would tone that trait down somehow. But, since Im not running LoF it isnt an issue for me yet.
- Gauss
What really stinks... some of the APs just have abysmal choices. Skull & Shackles is a prime example, where your forced to take a trait that causes you to lose everything you own.
I had a GM once who tried to get the party together like that AP does and we almost revolted from the table.
if you know in advance your starting out with nothing it's not so bad, but having it dropped on you out of nowhere does suck.
How should I rate the following:
Mother's Teeth (Lamashtu) - You can make a bite attack for 1d2 points of damage as a secondary attack.
I'm sure there are plenty of ways to optimize a free secondary bite attack.
Dragonamedrake, honestly, I houserule that AP trait choices are entirely optional. While certain APs the trait choices are quite RP appropriate in others there is just no real reason for them to be required.
- Gauss
My take on Finding Haleen is that it is an early version of what later became the favored class bonus.
The question is what to do about it. I think I would tone that trait down somehow. But, since Im not running LoF it isnt an issue for me yet.
- Gauss
What really stinks... some of the APs just have abysmal choices. Skull & Shackles is a prime example, where your forced to take a trait that causes you to lose everything you own.
I had a GM once who tried to get the party together like that AP does and we almost revolted from the table.
I haven't played the AP yet, but it starts off with every PC loses everything. The pjayers handbook says as much.
isn't their an orc trait that does the same as mothers teeth but with better damage? if so less then that trait. orange
No there is a Alternate Racial trait (its called trait but its a race feature) that replaces Orc Ferocity. It deals 1d4 but is a primary attack.
I haven't played the AP yet, but it starts off with every PC loses everything. The pjayers handbook says as much.My take on Finding Haleen is that it is an early version of what later became the favored class bonus.
The question is what to do about it. I think I would tone that trait down somehow. But, since Im not running LoF it isnt an issue for me yet.
- Gauss
What really stinks... some of the APs just have abysmal choices. Skull & Shackles is a prime example, where your forced to take a trait that causes you to lose everything you own.
I had a GM once who tried to get the party together like that AP does and we almost revolted from the table.
You don't exactly lose everything, you have it...put on layaway, basically. You can get it back quickly though, if you play your cards right.
found it!
Tusked: Huge, sharp tusks bulge from your mouth, and you receive a bite attack (1d4 damage for Medium characters). If used as part of a full attack action, the bite attack is made at your full base attack bonus –5.
orcs of golarion p.25
the alternative race trait is toothy from advanced players guide
found it!
Tusked: Huge, sharp tusks bulge from your mouth, and you receive a bite attack (1d4 damage for Medium characters). If used as part of a full attack action, the bite attack is made at your full base attack bonus –5.
orcs of golarion p.25
So all the traits aren't on the SRD. Crap.
sorry... if i find any others ill let ya know for completeness..
But the problem with UMD for paladins is that UMD is difficult. The lowest DC is 20, so to have even 50% chance of achieving that, you need +9. You'll get +5 from the trait and one skill point you put into it, so you need 18 Cha to make that +9. Paladins are pretty MAD, so if a paladin has 18 Cha at low levels, he's probably dumped Int and hasn't got any skill points to spare. Conversely, he has lower Cha and will struggle to keep adding skill points later. Ans that's just the easy stuff like wands.
Yes, you can usually retry UMD. But if you have time to retry, you're out of combat and someone else can do it.
Added to that, at low levels *you don't have many/any magic items* so this trait isn't doing anything for a while. You could take it with the Extra Trait feat later, but paladins don't have spare feats.
I wouldn't bother with UMD even for bards and rogues until about 7th level for much these reasons. Then, when I decide it's useful, I'd spam it instantly to +7+3+mCha so that it might achieve something.
But the problem with UMD for paladins is that UMD is difficult. The lowest DC is 20, so to have even 50% chance of achieving that, you need +9. You'll get +5 from the trait and one skill point you put into it, so you need 18 Cha to make that +9. Paladins are pretty MAD, so if a paladin has 18 Cha at low levels, he's probably dumped Int and hasn't got any skill points to spare. Conversely, he has lower Cha and will struggle to keep adding skill points later. Ans that's just the easy stuff like wands.
Yes, you can usually retry UMD. But if you have time to retry, you're out of combat and someone else can do it.
Added to that, at low levels *you don't have many/any magic items* so this trait isn't doing anything for a while. You could take it with the Extra Trait feat later, but paladins don't have spare feats.
I wouldn't bother with UMD even for bards and rogues until about 7th level for much these reasons. Then, when I decide it's useful, I'd spam it instantly to +7+3+mCha so that it might achieve something.
But as you said. Its a hard DC. Every little bit helps. A trait that gives you the skill in class and a +1 ... that's an extra 4 points you cant get anywhere else. UDM is amazing enough to plan for the future and take it at 1st so you can use it later. At least for high CHA classes.
Done with Religion Traits! Now I just have the Regional Traits left.
Order of Business:
Regional Traits
Re-organize Race Traits by Race
Create the Skill list (Traits that give skills by skill)
Review of Rankings and finishing touches.
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I was waiting for you to finish the religion traits. I'm making a new Dawnflower Dervish character, which requires Sarenrae worship, and I wasn't sure where to find all the possible traits to choose from, so I figured your guide could help.
I'm surprised you gave Blades of Mercy such a low rating. Sarenrae's favored weapon is the scimitar, which works with this trait. The Dawnflower Dervish archetype for Bards is an entirely melee focused scimitar wielding archetype that's required to worship Sarenrae.
With this feat, a Dawnflower Dervish, or any other scimitar wielding sun worshiper, can just do nonlethal damage by default and get a +1 damage bonus every time they swing their sword. If you want the enemy dead, you can still coup de grace once they're on the ground, but this will help you get them there faster. I know +1 isn't a huge bonus, but you can that bonus almost every time you swing your sword - only the rare enemy that can't take nonlethal damage is immune.
If I was going straight Dawnflower Dervish, I'd probably take this feat. It's only because I'm using Dawnflower Dervish as a one level dip before going mostly Rogue, and I wouldn't be able to use this with sneak attacks, that I won't take it.
I was waiting for you to finish the religion traits. I'm making a new Dawnflower Dervish character, which requires Sarenrae worship, and I wasn't sure where to find all the possible traits to choose from, so I figured your guide could help.
I'm surprised you gave Blades of Mercy such a low rating. Sarenrae's favored weapon is the scimitar, which works with this trait. The Dawnflower Dervish archetype for Bards is an entirely melee focused scimitar wielding archetype that's required to worship Sarenrae.
With this feat, a Dawnflower Dervish, or any other scimitar wielding sun worshiper, can just do nonlethal damage by default and get a +1 damage bonus every time they swing their sword. If you want the enemy dead, you can still coup de grace once they're on the ground, but this will help you get them there faster. I know +1 isn't a huge bonus, but you can that bonus almost every time you swing your sword - only the rare enemy that can't take nonlethal damage is immune.
If I was going straight Dawnflower Dervish, I'd probably take this feat. It's only because I'm using Dawnflower Dervish as a one level dip before going mostly Rogue, and I wouldn't be able to use this with sneak attacks, that I won't take it.
Now if only you can figure out how to make the scimitar do bludgeoning as well somehow (sap master and all) ^_-
Regarding Blades of Mercy:
Is nonlethal just as good as lethal in many cases? Well, what the skill amounts to is a +1 bonus to damage (which is half a feat) in some situations. The situtations where nonlethal damage either does not apply or is a worse option are:
Constructs and Undead are both immune.
Any hit point restoration abilities, such as Cure spells, Fast healing or Regeneration, will heal 1pt of lethal damage and 1point of nonlethal damage for each point of fast healing or regeneration. Fast Healing/Regeneration is all too common an occurance. To bypass this 'double healing' you will need to have all of your allies doing nonlethal as well and I doubt this will occur.
Thus, it becomes less than half a feat to do +1 nonlethal point of damage. The question is then: is it worthwhile to spend a trait to acquire nonlethal damage at no penalty? I do not believe it is. Orange seems correct to me.
- Gauss
I'm surprised you gave Blades of Mercy such a low rating. Sarenrae's favored weapon is the scimitar, which works with this trait. The Dawnflower Dervish archetype for Bards is an entirely melee focused scimitar wielding archetype that's required to worship Sarenrae.With this feat, a Dawnflower Dervish, or any other scimitar wielding sun worshiper, can just do nonlethal damage by default and get a +1 damage bonus every time they swing their sword. If you want the enemy dead, you can still coup de grace once they're on the ground, but this will help you get them there faster. I know +1 isn't a huge bonus, but you can that bonus almost every time you swing your sword - only the rare enemy that can't take nonlethal damage is immune.
If I was going straight Dawnflower Dervish, I'd probably take this feat. It's only because I'm using Dawnflower Dervish as a one level dip before going mostly Rogue, and I wouldn't be able to use this with sneak attacks, that I won't take it.
As Gauss pointed out. Non-Lethal Damage has many flaws.
From the SRD:
Dealing Nonlethal Damage
Certain attacks deal nonlethal damage. Other effects, such as heat or being exhausted, also deal nonlethal damage. When you take nonlethal damage, keep a running total of how much you've accumulated. Do not deduct the nonlethal damage number from your current hit points. It is not "real" damage. Instead, when your nonlethal damage equals your current hit points, you're staggered (see below), and when it exceeds your current hit points, you fall unconscious.
End of SRD
So as you can see Non-Lethal damage does not stack with Lethal damage. It is totaled up separately. What this means is if you are attacking the same creature as another party member who is doing lethal... you two are soaking two separate Hit Point totals.
Worse. If said creature heals. He heals an equal about of Non-Lethal as Lethal.
Unless your entire party wishes to deal non-lethal (and spell casters really can make that choice) then non-lethal really doesn't help your party take down the Focus of most encounters.
This is the main reason it is rated so low. It just isn't very effective.
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You've got nonlethal damage wrong. Yes, healing counts against both lethal and nonlethal, which lets things with both types heal faster, but I don't see enemies healing themselves in the middle of fights that often.
But lethal and nonlethal damage do stack for purposes of knocking things down. See your quote above from the SRD. When nonlethal damage exceeds current HP, the creature goes unconscious. So if something has 50 HP max, takes 30 points lethal damage, their current HP is 20. If they take 21 points nonlethal, they go down, just like they would if you added an extra 21 points of lethal.
Usually, mixing lethal and nonlethal in the same fight doesn't matter, with the rare exceptions being the couple of monster types that are immune to nonlethal or things that stop to heal themselves during a fight.
If you don't have mobs that heal themselves in combat that's just poor strategy by the GM. Especially if your an NPC intelligent enough to realize one of his attackers
And I believe I'm correct about separate pools. The use of current HP I refers to their HP total (-/+ any modifiers that change the base HP total). Not the HP - damage taken.
Either way there are many reasons why Non-lethal is less desirable then Lethal. Your Dismissing Immune creatures and Healing which are huge negatives.
I think the orange rating is deserved.
Alright I will be starting the Regional today.
Dragonamedrake: Fromper is correct about how Nonlethal damage 'stacks' (sorta) with lethal damage. The problem is just that any healing done will 'double heal' and thus I agree with it being orange.
Example 1: A tiger has 45hps.
Round 1 Fighter: dishes out 15hp damage.
Round 1 Cleric of Sarenrae: dishes out 8pts nonlethal damage.
Round 2 Fighter dishes out 15hp damage.
Round 2 Cleric of Sarenrae: dishes out 8pts nonlethal damage.
Totals: 30lethal, 16 nonlethal.
Result: unconcious (but not dying) tiger.
Example2: A hydra has 47 hps.
Round 1 Fighter: dishes out 15hp damage.
Round 1 Cleric of Sarenrae: dishes out 8pt nonlethal damage.
Round 1 Hydra: heals 5pts lethal, 5pts nonlethal damage.
Fromper: too many creatures have fast healing or regeneration. These creatures heal 1point lethal and 1point non-lethal for every point of healing or regeneration. They are not 'stopping to heal themselves' in those cases. That is what makes me downgrade the trait from green to orange.
- Gauss
I am probably mistaken. Either way as you stated it is still Orange.
Alright I have Separated each trait by Region and Linked all the Regions to their respective wiki link.
Starting to actually rate the traits.
Regarding Blade of Mercy: As soon as it is paired with Enforcer and more so the Thug archetype from APG it becomes extremely powerful. It's definetly not worth taking for the +1 to nonlethal damage but if you have any kinds of tricks you wanna pull of with nonlethal damage (sap master comes to mind) it's essential.
Also Tusked which I have on two chars currently is definitely worthy of blue. Especially at higher levels and with a massive strength score and or static damage bonuses it can represent a considerable increase of DPR on a full attack. There's a reason why so many people cheese and take it via the adopted trait.
For the record, i think Blade of Mercy is awesome, for both DD Bard and any Enforcer build not doing Sap Master, as mentioned already. You don't even *have* to use it. It just gives you the option. Against foes immune to nonlethal or that can heal, just don't use it. I think the option of nolethal with an actual good weapon (as opposed to... unarmed or sap) is pretty good on its own. To then also get half a feat most of the time on top of it? Should be at least Green, IMO.
Also Tusked which I have on two chars currently is definitely worthy of blue. Especially at higher levels and with a massive strength score and or static damage bonuses it can represent a considerable increase of DPR on a full attack. There's a reason why so many people cheese and take it via the adopted trait.
Tusked isn't actually on the SRD for some reason (I haven't ranked it yet), but I will do my best to find any traits missing. That is definitely on my radar to add.
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While I might not agree with 100% of the ratings, it's incredibly handy to have a single place to go to to see what traits might be available.
One request: it would be nice to know where the traits can be found. That way I know which sourcebook or HeroLab package I need to buy. It's obvious for the Adventure Path traits, of course, but not quite so straightforward for regional or social traits.
Alex Mack: While I agree that Blade of Mercy might be nice combined with a small number of builds that shouldnt change it's overall coloring from orange to green (or higher). There are a number of traits that are orange because they are not useful to the majority of builds.
JohnF: if he put down the source it would increase his workload immensely and possibly increase the size of the document (depending on how he included the information). Instead, just use the D20PFSRD for the majority of the traits. A quick search will locate the trait you are trying to find.
- Gauss
Dragonamedrake - it looks like they dont have anything from orcs of golarion on the srd, do you want me to post them on here??
Mystic_Snowfang, I think his color coding for the most part is right. It is based on how often things occur. Combat occurs more often than diplomacy which (usually) occurs more often than something like swim. Thus, a combat trait should be ranked higher than a non-combat trait (as a general principle).
If you look at the various AP's check how often combat occurs versus how often skill checks occur. If the APs are the metric by which games are judged then the color coding he uses is basically correct.
- Gauss
Dragonamedrake - it looks like they dont have anything from orcs of golarion on the srd, do you want me to post them on here??
That would be great. Thank you.
A quick look at it and I can tell you're only thinking about a combat heavy game.
You should take a bigger look and judge the traits a bit more evenly, not just "is this better for combat"
Mystic_Snowfang, I think his color coding for the most part is right. It is based on how often things occur. Combat occurs more often than diplomacy which (usually) occurs more often than something like swim. Thus, a combat trait should be ranked higher than a non-combat trait (as a general principle).
If you look at the various AP's check how often combat occurs versus how often skill checks occur. If the APs are the metric by which games are judged then the color coding he uses is basically correct.
- Gauss
Thanks for the support Gauss. As Gauss has said I am trying to rank each trait by likely hood of use. And as an aside. If you fail a Diplomacy check the game moves on. If you fail a Fortitude save vs a death effect you are making a new character. Combat tends to have a much larger impact on whether or not your character gets to continue adventuring. I keep that in mind also.
While I might not agree with 100% of the ratings, it's incredibly handy to have a single place to go to to see what traits might be available.One request: it would be nice to know where the traits can be found. That way I know which sourcebook or HeroLab package I need to buy. It's obvious for the Adventure Path traits, of course, but not quite so straightforward for regional or social traits.
Yeah unfortunatly there are 596 traits on the SRD(what Im using to make the guide). To add the source to each would be a huge task. I have linked the SRD at the top of the guide though. If you look at the trait your interested in on the SRD it list the source under the trait.
I hope that helps.
just got back on, will post shortly all OoG traits
OK, here's all the RACE type traits from Orcs of Golarion.
Amazingly Ugly: Your skull is misshapen in a grotesque way. You receive a +1 trait bonus on Intimidate skill checks, and it becomes a class skill.
Beast Rider: You have a knack for breaking animals to your will, though you know little of civilized training methods. You gain a +2 trait bonus on Ride checks, but should you ever be forcibly dismounted in combat, your mount attacks you to the best of its ability.
Big Mouth: You have an innate ability to weave stories about yourself that extol your might and prowess. Yougain a +1 trait bonus on all Bluff, Intimidate, and Perform (oratory) checks made against orcs.
Brute: You are an especially large and hulking individual, and when you strike, you aim to deliver the maximum amount of pain. Whenever you score a critical threat, you add (but not multiply, in the case of a confirmed critical hit) an amount of damage equal to your weapon’s critical modifier.
Deadeye: You have only one working eye, but that eye is especially keen. You receive a +2 trait bonus on all Perception checks involving sight.
Demented Inventor: You adore crafting new and ever more creative weapons, and some of them even work. You gain a +2 trait bonus on Craft (weapons) checks, and it becomes a class skill.
Dirty Fighter: You were raised to fight with every dirty trick in the book. You receive a +3 trait bonus on all attempts to feint in combat using your Bluff skill.
Mindlessly Cruel: You take delight in delivering vicious blows with cruel weapons. Whenever you have a morale bonus on weapon attack rolls, you also receive a +1 trait bonus on weapon damage rolls.
Outcast: You are adept at living away from tribes and receive a +1 trait bonus on Survival skill checks. Survival becomes a class skill for you. Rage of Storms: Summoned creatures can inherit your ferocity. Once per day, a creature you summon creature can have the ferocity ability (Pathfinder RPG Bestiary 300)
Tribal: You are especially devoted to your tribe, and within 60 feet of a tribal standard, you gain a +1 trait bonus on attack rolls and Will saves against fear effects, as if you were the recipient of a bless spell.
Tusked: Huge, sharp tusks bulge from your mouth, and you receive a bite attack (1d4 damage for Medium characters). If used as part of a full attack action, the bite attack is made at your full base attack bonus –5.
Unbreakable Hate: Your ferocity is focused into your spells, and it is harder to break your concentration. You receive a +2 trait bonus on all concentration checks.
OK, here is Regional traits
Dominator (Belkzen): The blood of dominance runs thick in the savage home of orcs, and your prowess in fighting is a thing of cruel artistry. You receive a +2 traitbonus on all attempts to demoralize an opponent in combat using your Intimidate skill.
Linebreaker (Belkzen): Growing up along the border between Belkzen and Lastwall has taught you how to storm human battle lines and quickly overwhelm them. When charging, add 10 feet to your base speed.
Mammoth Master (Belkzen or Realm of the Mammoth Lords): You have experience trapping and training megafauna such as mastodons, woolly rhinoceroses, and other animals frequently used as orc warbeasts. You gain a +4 trait bonus on Handle Animal checks related to these creatures.
Sun-Blasted (any desert): Desert orcs have learnt to survive with practically nothing in the desert. You receive a +2 trait bonus on Survival checks made in a desert, and resolve all checks at becoming lost in deserts as though you had proper navigational tools (a +4 bonus). The presence of such tools does not increase your ability, however.
Unafraid (Ustalav): The horrors of the fog-shrouded land of terror have hardened you. You receive a +2 bonus on all saving throws made against fear affects.
Water Brave (River Kingdoms): Travel through the dangerous waters of the River Kingdoms has given your tribe special skills in relation to them. You receive a +1 trait bonus on Swim checks, and it becomes a class skill.