I'm still playing 3.5, so imagine my MT there is worse than the PF upgrade, but I'm surprised no one else piped in to offer a different perspective for choosing to play a MT.
Roleplaying. I started as a cleric of Wee Jas and am now 10th level (3rd cleric, 3rd wizard, 4th MT). I imagine if I was playing PF already, and wanted to worship Nethys, I would be playing a very similar character concept and build.
I'm not bashing the underlying optimization premise behind this thread. I do that to a degree anyway. But I guess I just wanted to add the RP argument for why this PrC could "work", or is otherwise worth investing in.
I'm also the only mage or cleric in the party (though there's a Warlock for blaster damage). I recognize I'm gimped at times, but I like the flexibility of the class, and don't have a problem as a utility caster at all. I guess whatever (a) makes you happy playing, and (b) helps the overall party dynamic and survivability, is what should determine what character you play.
MT is pretty decent in combining two roles in one package, it loses some sparkle if the roles are already taken in the party though. In current edition of the game there are more spellcasters than there are non-spellcasters which doesn't help the MT.
I agree BenS, I think people just assume when a thread labeled 'can MT work' means 'can it pull it's weight ?' Which it can easily, though arguably not being as effective as a pure caster.
I think the class is lacking a little in class features mainly, they are a bit boring and has 'dead' levels. In my opinion it should have the ability to gain full CL in both classes (not spells per day), maybe some metamagic bonus feats and a bonus in using them.
A rewrite could be :
lvl 1 combined casting (lvl 1), +1 effective CL
lvl 2 bonus metamagic feat, enhanced metamagic 1/day
lvl 3 combined casting (lvl 2), +2 effective CL
lvl 4 lesser spell synthesis (up to lvl 2), enhanced metamagic 2/day
lvl 5 combined casting (lvl 3), +3 effective CL
lvl 6 bonus metamagic feat, enhanced metamagic 3/day
lvl 7 combined casting (lvl 4), +4 effective CL
lvl 8 spell synthesis (up to lvl 4), enhanced metamagic 4/day
lvl 9 combined casting (lvl 5), +5 effective CL
lvl 10 greater spell synthesis (any level), enhanced metamagic 5/day
* +x effective CL applies to a maximum of character level.
* enhanced metamagic allows -1 level modifier for metamagic x/day.
* (lesser/greater) spell synthesis works like described in the CRB up to the indicated level 1/day each.
That said I do not think there is a whole lot wrong with the class, this would make it more interesting to play giving it a slight powerboost when needed, as well as helping with action economy. Typically by level 5 in the class there will be no penalty on caster level which means players do not have to suffer a tax to keep CL somewhat relevant. This brings it up to speed with increases of base classes across the board I think.
EDIT: this is actually the changes I made to the MT in my campaign excpet for the CL increase, since I houserule casterlevels to stack up to character level (and add 1/2 non-caster levels) the MT would have full CL from the start.
The only time I've seen it work is in high level campaigns where magic wasn't available to be bought, sold and traded like trading cards. In magic poor environments they can shine and at higher levels they get a ton of very potent spells.
I'm still playing 3.5, so imagine my MT there is worse than the PF upgrade, but I'm surprised no one else piped in to offer a different perspective for choosing to play a MT.
Erroneous. In 3.5 you have the possibility to mitigate the loss of caster level through feats. You will be stuck behind, but you will at very least have your spells operate at your current character level.
In 3.5, MT was almost viable, and could even be completely fine in non-optimized games.
Is the spell list, when combined with the all-day-use hexes more than enough to make witch a very powerful class? Sure. But it is absolutely NOT bringing the same library of spells that an actual wiz/cleric/MT is bringing.
I still think you're better off going Pathfinder Savant and picking up the spells you really want from the other class.
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Remco Sommeling, was on to something. If the class is that terrible how can we, as a community, make it not only feasible but enjoyable for the entire party. Change it into something that is balanced (definitely not game breaking) and doesn't make the rest of the party cringe when someone wants to play it!
I've been thinking about the Mystic Theurge a lot lately (been contemplating writing up a guide) and I've decided that I really feel like the MT is fine as it is. Paizo has stuck with a core philosophy of making sure that prestige classes are capable of fulfilling specific concepts while never being more powerful than a single-classed character. In fact, I can't think of a single PrC that's even equally powerful to a single classed character.
It's pretty established here that spellcasting is the most powerful mechanic in the system. This class allows you to pursue two separate spellcasting classes while never being more powerful than a single-classed wizard/cleric/whatever, while also allowing you to remain viable as a player. No, it doesn't have as much raw power as a wizard or cleric, since they're drawing on spells 1-2 levels higher. What it does have is staying power and a staggering amount of versatility.
Can the Mystic Theurge work? Absolutely. Dependence on two casting stats is rough, so focus on your favorite and keep the other just high enough to get the job done. For the first couple levels you're a regular character, and when you start multiclassing you sorta become a bard/inquisitor/magus/alchemist/summoner with enough spells to be a full-time caster. You're not useless if you put some effort into it, but you do tend to struggle for a few awkward levels. A druid/wizard MT is getting third level spells a level after a bard does, but she's got enough to last all day.
Just my 2cp, though.
It will cost you money, but many people would pay dearly for an extra party member doing things that cannot be replicated by a familiar with Use Magic Device.
Except, it was ruled that only like... 3 familiars can actually use magic items.
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I've been thinking about the Mystic Theurge a lot lately (been contemplating writing up a guide) and I've decided that I really feel like the MT is fine as it is. Paizo has stuck with a core philosophy of making sure that prestige classes are capable of fulfilling specific concepts while never being more powerful than a single-classed character. In fact, I can't think of a single PrC that's even equally powerful to a single classed character.
Eldritch Knight isn't that bad, except that the capstone is dumb. Dragon Disciple is pretty good, and master chymist is good; Several of these options can provide classes that are stronger than some pure classes in my opinion.
Arcane trickster is weaker than pure classes but has the fun sneak attack with spells mechanic, while rage prophet is a big fail which at least had the right idea.
Mystic theurge is just awful though. You get hit with 1.5 spell levels on both sides in something where the action economy means you can't ever be powerful except once a day with lower level spells with spell synthesis. Further, your caster level is hit on both sides meaning you will never overcome SR on level appropriate encounters. You'll never make caster level checks to dispel, your spells will crumple like paper to enemy dispels. And that's only the spellcasting part, which is pretty sad for a class that's supposed to be all abouts the magicks.
You lose out on bonus feats, familiar progression, energy channeling, domain abilities, school powers, bloodlines, revelations, and so on for a few spells that are vastly below level appropriate.
You can do some cool openers, like haste, prayer, slow, stinking cloud and the like, and maybe summon a few archons. But you wont be able to ever pump these openers with metamagics without rods, and you cant follow up with level appropriate control like cloudkill, mindfog, wall of stone, or greater command, nor can you save the day with breath of life.
It's pretty established here that spellcasting is the most powerful mechanic in the system. This class allows you to pursue two separate spellcasting classes while never being more powerful than a single-classed wizard/cleric/whatever, while also allowing you to remain viable as a player. No, it doesn't have as much raw power as a wizard or cleric, since they're drawing on spells 1-2 levels higher. What it does have is staying power and a staggering amount of versatility.
Problem is, your role in the party has been demoted from god and buffer to cohort or summoned monster for combat. 3 level hits on spellcasting classes is tolerable in a gish like dragon disciple, eldtritch knight, or specialty striker like arcane trickster. There your spells are combat tricks that make you a better fighter, backed up by stuff that synergizes with it from arcane strike at full bab with mirror image or using sneak attacks with spells.
There isn't cool synergy like that with mystic theurge. Its just sort of an unorganized mess with a big spell list, as if having a big spell list is worth a giant hit to power; It isn't. Further, the prepared caster options are very MAD.
It might be if it was 2/2 on entry (2 levels sorcerer/2 levels oracle would be tolerable) and had more class abilities that actually synergized from both spell lists besides the almost completely wasted combine spells and the once a day awesomeness of spell synthesis at the capstone. As is, this is easily the weakest, most pointless PrC I've seen.
I really like the idea, because I really like the idea of a dedicated opener that drops a hasted prayer then a slow. I just cant see how this can work though.
Personally i love the mystic theurge class.
I agree that is is weak as heck early on. For example being level 8 you're going to be a 3/3/2 split meaning you're the equivilent of a 5th level wizard/cleric whilst your pure cleric and wizard are 8th and casting 4th level spells whilst you're casting 3rd [which frankly isn't a huge loss in my oppinion to get 2 classes worth of 3rd in place of 1 class' 4th].
But by the time you've maxed it out at 3/3/10 you'll be a 16th level character who is pretty much a level 13 cleric AND level 13 wizard casting level 6 spells of both classes in place of level 7 of just one class. Push it up another 2 wizard levels and you can cast both level 8 wizard spells AND level 7 cleric spells, allowing for a huge array of excellent spell combos (like using a contingency spell [wizard] with your raise dead spell [cleric]. That combo always catches people by supprise as you get back to your feet after you should be dead.).
By the time you reach epic level you can easily be 7/7/10 split allowing you to use both 9th level spells of cleric and wizard classes whereas the wizard has maxed their class out at 20 and forced to take 4 levels of cleric giving him 9th level wizard spells and 2nd level cleric spells (depending upon how your GM is doing epic level of course).
You're not just 3 levels behind a wizard or cleric. You are several points in wis or int behind, you are Lv-3 worth of class abilities behind.
And the meat of the game happens on levels 1-10, not 11-20.
And epic is a non-issue, as I am sure less than 1% ever get there.
You're not just 3 levels behind a wizard or cleric. You are several points in wis or int behind, you are Lv-3 worth of class abilities behind.
And the meat of the game happens on levels 1-10, not 11-20.
And epic is a non-issue, as I am sure less than 1% ever get there.
I suppose that differs from group to group, alot of groups do not play from level 1 up and even later in game new characters are sometimes made to replace slain characters. Most groups still have played with Mystic Theurges despite them being considered weak and a fair number like them, so it is not a complete failure.
The Mystic Theurge is only weak by comparison to full casters, in a game where there are none they can do very well without feeling underpowered compared to other classes. Maybe the problem is with the single class casters rather than the Mystic Theurge ?
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MT can work and can be viable to a party as a bag of tricks character. Is MT an optimized uber powerful character? This class isn't for the power gamer who wants to min/max. As many others have said; MT is a great class for roleplaying opportunities.
I don't know why people complain about summoning. It allows characters to bring in 2+ critters that they can "control." This allows them to do more things in one round. The wizard in the party I'm in summon's constantly, and not just to fight. He uses it as a utility spell and roleplays the hell out of it too.
Yes, when I was in the process of writing my witch handbook and rating every single witch spell with a color coding, I did in fact set aside the time to read the witch's spell list... (-_-)If I'm supposed to be impressed that you wrote a guide, I'm not. I'd be much more impressed if you put forth reasonable arguments.
I think the problem here is relative terms. Even BAD 9-level spellcasting is still AMAZING. Because casting is powerful and all. But compared to the wizard list? Witch's spell selection is bad. That's just how it is... It's not just a matter of having less good spells. Witch just plain is lacking, almost across the board, the very best spells in nearly every category, at every single spell level.First, you didn't say the witch doesn't have the best spell at every level, you said the witch's spell list was bad, and not bad compared to wizard, bad compared to every 9th level caster, and more importantly to this thread, compared to a wizard / cleric mystic theurge. If you'd like to make a list for a level 7 mystic theurge, I'll be more than happy to make a list for a level 7 witch and we can see whose spells / day list is superior. Heck I'll even start:
IV: Summon Monster IV, Black Tentacles
III: Haste x2, stinking cloud
II: Glitterdust, heroism, web, silence
I: Enlarge Person x2, Obscuring Mist, Mage Armor, Summon Monster I, cure light wounds(And just as an aside, my list if I were playing a wizard would probably trade heroism for invisibility, silence for probably create pit and cure light wounds for color spray. I'm not even sure the wizard list would be as good, much less better.)
Heroism is level 3, silence is not on the list, neither is haste, you can gain haste or silence depending on which patron you pick but it does limit your choices.
Comparing anything to a level 1 MT is not going to proof much.
Put it like this MT is great seat 5 or 6. They are poor Primeary Arcane/Divine casters. With right party it is very strong. If you party is Not the Clasic four but full mutt they are great. For example Pal, Bard, MT, Ranger.
It strenght is it versaitly. Not it top end ablity. You have to have the right mindset to play it. You are solid work truck not a race car. Theys are great in game where WLB rule are used cause the whole party dose not use as many comsumeable. There for they have more money to use on durable magic items. They also can get double work out of feats like combat casting, School Focus, and Meta magic ect.
I played Warmage/Cleric MT in 3.5 and Wizard/Druid/Arcane MT. Wizard?Cleric MT in pathfinder. And it worked just fine.
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It strenght is it versaitly. Not it top end ablity. You have to have the right mindset to play it. You are solid work truck not a race car. Theys are great in game where WLB rule are used cause the whole party dose not use as many comsumeable. There for they have more money to use on durable magic items. They also can get double work out of feats like combat casting, School Focus, and Meta magic ect.
The sheer number of spells you get as a MT for utility is often overlooked. Your point is great, especially in a campaign setting where the DM doesn't hand out items/money like candy. In a very magic scarce campaign a MT can be a godsend, especially if it's the only caster within the party. Also, if there are only 4 players and none of them want to be a caster/cleric, a MT is a way to allow you to have the versatility that you are relied upon for both dmg/healing. Even if someone does save against a maximized fireball, unless they have evasion/improved evasion, they are taxing a good amount of damage.
If a DM is running a challenging encounter, which is APL + 1.... If there are 4+ enemies they are all going to be at lower level than the MT. SO other than BBEG the MT doesn't have to worry too much about a super high SR, esp with feats like spell penetration, and greater spell penetration.
I just wanted to make the point that a mystic theurge with a witch/cleric combo with a hedge witch archetype allows you to switch out any of your spells arcane or divine for an appropriate leveled cure spell. I would imagine it would be quite handy to always have the number of heals you need without ever having to prepare for it ahead of time. This, of course, is mostly only for out of combat healing, but when you really need a heal and you've burned all your divine spells it could be a life saver.
This isn't a great reason to go with the split casting prestige class, but it is a cool idea if you always want to make sure you have a heal available.
Another cool hybrid concept, though probably very under powered in an optimized sense, would be a Magus 7/Cleric 3/Mystic Theurge 10.
This gives you medium armor arcane casting, and you can deliver a spellstrike or perform spell combat with arcane and divine spells with the broad study arcana. You also have most of the magus core abilities and a decent arcane pool before jumping into cleric and Mystic Theurge. You probably wouldn't take any levels of Mystic Theurge until level 11 though.
Another cool hybrid concept, though probably very under powered in an optimized sense, would be a Magus 7/Cleric 3/Mystic Theurge 10.
Makes me weep for 1st edition, when I could have simply played a fighter/magic-user/cleric right from the start! I often wish 3e had gone with old demi-human multiclassing rules, rather than with the old human dual-classing rules.
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Okay, so I was thinking about the MT and I thought of a way that makes it easier to play, even for a Sorcerer/Oracle/MT (which I will use for my example).
Note: this only works if you can use Eclectic and Esoteric Training from the CS: Inner Sea Magic.
1lvl: Sorcerer- Bloodline Arcana, Bloodline Power, Eschew Materials, Feat
2lvl: Oracle- Mystery, Curse, Revelation, Eclectic Training (+1 Oracle)
3lvl: Sorcerer- Feat
4lvl: Sorcerer- Bloodline Power, Bloodline Spell
5lvl: Sorcerer- Feat
6lvl: Sorcerer- Bloodline Spell
7lvl: Sorcerer- Feat
8lvl: Sorcerer- Bloodline Feat, Bloodline Spell
9lvl: Sorcerer- Feat
10lvl: Sorcerer- Bloodline Power, Bloodline Spell, Esoteric Training (+3 Oracle, +1 Sorcerer)
11lvl-20lvl:MT
By 10lvl you are casting like a 4lvl Oracle and a 10lvl Sorcerer, you have the Bloodline power of a 9lvl Sorcerer and you can enter MT with only one 1lvl dip into Oracle. Also if you take the deaf curse you can cast spells with only somatic components. Once you are 20lvl you are casting as a 20lvl Sorcerer and a 14lvl Oracle with only one primary casting stat.
Obviously this can work the other way around and is most effective with the Oracle/Sorcerer/Bard combo IMO.
Essentially giving a single caster the spellcasting ability of another spellcasting class 4 levels lower (almost) for free is not an excellent patch. It doesn't fix the MT it makes the single class caster even more powerful/versatile.
It's not free at all. It's not like you can just choose Esoteric Training. You have to first find a guild to join and that's up the the GM. Then once you join you have a lot of work to do before you get first level of Esoteric Training let alone the advanced. And all this depends on the GM on how much work that really is. A GM could just hand it out easily or they could make extremely difficult.
Level 1-3: Yay, I'm a real caster. No loss here.
Level 4-5: Uh, more first level spells. stuff I couldn't do before... not terrible I guess. I can't cast haste or prayer but I got a few other tricks.
Level 6-15: My party treats me as a wandering collection of scrolls and a summoned monster. I can be marginally useful, but no outstanding abilities. Once I start running into things with SR I just forget about casting anything on them directly anymore. Spell focus feats become a waste.
Level 16: Yay, spell synthesis. I can do one amazing opener move once a day. I even get an intrinsic +2 to the DC. Too bad that everything with SR just ignores it, and its just once a day, and you're casting level 7 spells like banishment or prismatic spray instead of the goodies one level higher... and the next level the single class caster gets wish, time stop, etcetera while you're still playing around with delayed blast fireball.
Oh, and school abilities and bonus feats. The BBEG is a diviner, so he gets to go first, He notices you've got a real nasty opener move so he casts time stop and, yeah...
Level 17-20: Depends if you houserule extending MT or not. Its not good, no matter what you do until level 20.
I really like the idea but with 3/3 entry at the very best and a huge feat tax, just for some neat tricks like contingency raise dead and about 12 levels of pain...
I think that the problem with the mystic theurge is that people want it to be all wizard and all cleric at the same time. They want it to be a battle cleric that can replace all the other class while also being a god-wizard.
What if you instead played it as a buffer/battle field controller with some item crafting on the side to help the party more?
The biggest problem I have with the mystic theurge is that it is best for prepared casters. Spontaneous casters can't use combined spells at all. I was toying around with a magus/inquisitor/mystic theurge and I think it could have been fun if it could have used it's spells better.
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Level 1-3: Yay, I'm a real caster. No loss here.
Level 4-5: Uh, more first level spells. stuff I couldn't do before... not terrible I guess. I can't cast haste or prayer but I got a few other tricks.
Level 6-15: My party treats me as a wandering collection of scrolls and a summoned monster. I can be marginally useful, but no outstanding abilities. Once I start running into things with SR I just forget about casting anything on them directly anymore. Spell focus feats become a waste.
Level 16: Yay, spell synthesis. I can do one amazing opener move once a day. I even get an intrinsic +2 to the DC. Too bad that everything with SR just ignores it, and its just once a day, and you're casting level 7 spells like banishment or prismatic spray instead of the goodies one level higher... and the next level the single class caster gets wish, time stop, etcetera while you're still playing around with delayed blast fireball.
It depends if that Esoteric training is allowed or not, but if not, and assuming Wiz/Clr/MT standard path, I'd say it's more like this...
Level 1-3: Yay, I'm a real caster. No loss here.
Level 4: Huh, I lost an extra level 2 spell for a bunch of 1st levels from a whole new list and some class features. Fair enough.
Level 5-6: OMG THE PAIN! WTF DID I DO TO MYSELF?! IT BURNS! IT BURNSSSSSS!!!!
Level 7-9: *Cough* I'm making gradual improvements in my condition, looks like it's not fatal after all. The docs say I might even be back on solid foods soon!
Level 10-16: You know, at first I hated having a mechanically grafted arm, I felt so awkward compared to all the "normal people." But do normal people arms lift heavy boxes AND have embedded word processing capability? I think not! I think I kinda like it now.
Level 17-20: Well, that injury set me back a bit, but I finally graduated wizard college. The others have had their degrees for longer, but I can cast the same exact spells as them now...and I have a freakin' cool robot arm!
Just my impression of how it'd go, roughly. :)
MT works, but it does not work until you are at higher levels. If I had to start at a low level and play with it until higher levels I would not do it, but if I could start at a high level without dealing with the low levels I might try it.
It's not free at all. It's not like you can just choose Esoteric Training. You have to first find a guild to join and that's up the the GM. Then once you join you have a lot of work to do before you get first level of Esoteric Training let alone the advanced. And all this depends on the GM on how much work that really is. A GM could just hand it out easily or they could make extremely difficult.Essentially giving a single caster the spellcasting ability of another spellcasting class 4 levels lower (almost) for free is not an excellent patch. It doesn't fix the MT it makes the single class caster even more powerful/versatile.
How exactly is that a penalty for a player, you mean they have to rp to get extra spellcasting ability over a single class wizard and in nearly all ways that matter be better than them ? GM willing...
It is WAY over the other abilities for guild membership, I can imagine it working ok, just not in combination with mystic theurge.
You could in theory get a wizard 4 cleric 1 and then go MT, coming down to a level 16 wizard and cleric 15 at level 16, because being a single class wizard is so terrible....
In fact, I can't think of a single PrC that's even equally powerful to a single classed character.Diabolist for either a cleric or arcane caster. You lose access to granted abilities (although if you were an arcane caster delaying entry for one level to get one back isn't a bad idea) and you gain a full strength animal companion with better HP and a nasty, re-usable poison. The damage is a little weak compared to druid ACs, but he doesn't have to drop the opponent's HP, just their dex. In the meantime you also gain valuable bonuses on getting a decent deal with Infernal outsiders on Planar Binding. Hellfire damage on any energy spell is icing on the cake in a more 'gray' campaign where not every BBG is going to be evil (And if that isn't the case, the Diabolist probably won't be allowed anyway.)
Dezakin didn't say that. Eldritch knight, dragon disciple, master chymist, loremaster are all powerful PrCs.
No matter what you do, the MT is going to have some marginalized abilities.
My opinion is the MT is functionally similar to a Bard - A support character.
I agree to that although I tend to think that the MT functions more like the old Multiclass characters that used to exist in AD&D. Very versatile and slow leveling, but incredibly well at support.
Arcane Hierophant and True Necromancer are where it was at as far as Divine/Arcane multi class PrCS.