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I haven’t played a Druid since 3.5 and then only to about 5th level. My group is going to be playing through Skull and Shackles.
What are people’s thoughts on Saurian Shaman Druids? The archetype seems to allow you to be flexible in your Wild Shapes, the DM says Pterosaurs are ‘close enough’ to dinos to count, plus there’s the various sea snakes, swimming dinos and so forth. Have you tried it and has it worked for you? If not, was there anything you didn’t like?
What is the class’s power level like? We will have one or two munchkin-ey types who will be optimized to hell and back, one who will design something to fit an interesting concept and a few others who may or may not be optimized. Will a Saurian Shaman feel weak and useless, or will it be able to at least stay within shouting distance of the power gamers?
Thanks!
Pterosaurs really are not dinosaurs, probably as close to them as mammals orcroccodiles. Ie distant.
But the archetype overall seems fine.
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It doesn't stack with Menhir Savant; therefore I don't like it.
Its one of the better archetypes, dinos cover quite a few party roles, like tank, damage (high number of attack type, or spike), or movement (esp if the DM is allowing the flyers and swimmers). From an optimizing standpoint its not really going to be more powerful than a std druid that just uses the usual big cats.
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I loved it. You get the best range of wildshapes as any shaman gives. At 6th level you will have access to all the shapes you want. flying, swimming, fighting, or that tiny sneaky compy. You get to do wild empathy in a standard action which is nice for those many dino's you might see. 5th level lets you summon dino and such reptiles as permitted in a standard action which is nice. just remember that you cant wildshape till 6th level which is the hard part.
Saurian Shaman says "dinosaur or reptile", so the fliers and swimmers are fair game.
Well, if they're NOT going to include birds they may as well include the pterasaurs.
Ahh i forgot it included Reptiles, then Pterasaurs are fair game. Only braught it up earlier, as they are not Dinosaurs any more than a croccodile is.
I'm a little confused on how some of the shaman Archtype works
Wild empathy: Does it ONLY work on reptiles and dinos or does it just work better on them?
Are the other features of the class left unchanged, ie venom immunity?
Archetypes are based on the changes and losses to the base class, if they do not state they lose a feature then they do not.
Wild Empathy does not state that it loses standard wild empathy so it does not. However, I can see where the wording on this might be unclear. Perhaps it does lose standard wild empathy and I am mistaken.
Rationale for wild empathy change and not loss:
Standard Wild Empathy takes 1minute and has no extra +4 bonus. Shaman Wild Empathy takes 1 full-round action and has a +4 bonus with a specific type of animal. My view is that this is an extra benefit that is added onto the original Wild Shape.
Wild Shape is changed.
Thousand Faces is lost.
Venom Immunity is lost.
- Gauss
Edit: Added rationale for wild empathy.
Pterosaurs really are not dinosaurs, probably as close to them as mammals orcroccodiles. Ie distant.
But the archetype overall seems fine.
You're using real life logic. The pterosaurs are listed as dinos in the game, so they're fair game.
WHat's thousand faces getting replaced by? The bonus feats?
I would recommend taking a look at the Guide to Guides (this really should be made a sticky thread) and in particular the Peterrco's guide to Druids. It is a fairly well written guide and it talks specifically about the Saurian Shaman.
To summarize, yes, it is a strong archetype for druid. Probably the second best (outside of Menhir Savant) and far superior to all other animal shamans. In fact, by comparison the other animal shamans are weak and honestly deserve a power bump. I don't think that the Saurian Shaman is too powerful but rather that the other animal shamans are too limited for their slight power gain. The proper solution is not to nerf the Saurian Shaman but to bring the other archetypes up to the power level of at least the normal Druid.
Thousand Faces is replaced by Totemic Summons. I know, weird. A 5th level ability replacing a 13th level ability.
Venom Immunity is replaced by the bonus feats.
- Gauss
Im not sure I agree with you Lune. I have a chart of Dinosaurs and Felines based on Totemic Summons and a Dire Tiger outperforms a Stegosaurus across four different SNA levels (5th-8th). While the stego's have cleave and power attack the dire tigers do better overall damage and more accurately. Additionally they occupy less space.
- Gauss
Now see how a dino closer tot eh tiger's abilities, like a deinonychus, does.
Good point Azten, problem is the deinonychus is a much earlier summon and as a result it peaks out sooner.
However, I can compare it to another summon of the same level, the standard tiger. Compared to the standard tiger it is clearly inferior in damage output, hps, accuracy, and damage. This hold's true for all of the Totemic Summons versions of each type as well.
- Gauss
That. Also consider that animal shamans are limited to their animal type while Saurian Shamans are "limited" to ALL Dinosaurs and Reptiles.
Lune, I have no disagreement there. The saurian is alot more versatile in that there are saurians in the land, sea, and air. I was just commenting on the 'power' of the Lion Shaman as compared to the Saurian Shaman when it comes to summoning.
BTW, I think the saurian shaman has an easier time building a Wild Shape damage machine since a single attack (type) is easier to build for.
- Gauss
Lune, I have no disagreement there. The saurian is alot more versatile in that there are saurians in the land, sea, and air. I was just commenting on the 'power' of the Lion Shaman as compared to the Saurian Shaman when it comes to summoning.
BTW, I think the saurian shaman has an easier time building a Wild Shape damage machine since a single attack (type) is easier to build for.
- Gauss
Dragonstyle , 4 attacks on a charge and an amulet of mighty fists set to elemental damage gets pretty scary.
-clever girl...
Not sure what you mean by 'Dragonstyle' BigNorseWolf. However, yes I agree that multiple attacks with elemental damage is scarier than a single attack without. In this regard most Dire Tigers (with 5 attacks) are superior to most saurian shaman wild shapes. However, accuracy is still an issue so it is a moot issue if the elemental damage does not actually get through. In this regard a single attack is superior (easier to use greater magic weapon and weapon focus).
- Gauss
Ah right, I wasn't thinking of feats at that moment. - Gauss
Running one now, shift at 2nd level is a real plus for tough campaigns and the 6th level shifts are amazing. Same problem with all druids, though, is the top out at around 10th, give or take. I might switch to Barbarian around 8th, that will add a lot of kill power but you lose out on the spells. I am enjoying it quite a bit, as are my companions :-)
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I've enjoyed playing my Saurian Shaman in PFS except for heavy RP scenarios as his ability to diplomacise is obviously weak. I went with the Destruction (Rage) domain instead of an animal companion. A disadvantage at lower levels, but synergizing well at higher levels.
My biggest complaint is that he requires a round or two of powering up before contributing to a fight. If totemic transformation lasted hours instead of minutes this issue would be resolved. Delaying Wild Shape until 6th is also frustrating, which in turn delays Natural Spell (feat) to 7th level. In some ways I regret not going with a straight up Druid. I've progressed through the hardest part now and am ready to live life as a level 6+ level Saurian Shaman =D
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Gauss and BigNorseWolf: As I'm sure you are aware there are pouncing dinosaurs that you can wildshape into that are as good if not better than the feline varieties. Allosaurus is a good example of how the Dragon Style feat can shine.
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Running one now, shift at 2nd level is a real plus for tough campaigns and the 6th level shifts are amazing. Same problem with all druids, though, is the top out at around 10th, give or take. I might switch to Barbarian around 8th, that will add a lot of kill power but you lose out on the spells. I am enjoying it quite a bit, as are my companions :-)
Check out multi-classing into a Rogue (Scout). Scouts get the ability at 4th level to get sneak attack on charge attacks. Add that to the ability to pounce and... Well, let's just say its pretty nasty.
Add to that Shaping Focus and Boon Companion feats. The first counts up to 4 levels of another class towards Wild Shaping while the other does the same thing for Animal Companion. You lose out on the spells, but the extra damage I think is worth it, along with evasion. Find another archetype that gives up trapfinding and trap sense and it might fit quite well.
Lune:
If we compare wildshaping into pouncing dinos vs pouncing cats we find:
Deionychus (bestiary1) vs Leopard:
The deionychus has 3 primary attacks for 12.5 and a secondary attack for 2.5.
The Leopard has 5 primary attacks (when pouncing) for 11.5.
However, when you add in the damage bonuses the leopard will come out on top while pouncing. Admitedly the Deionychus will win in subsequent rounds for damage.
Allosaurus vs Dire Tiger:
Allosaurus has 5 primary attacks (when pouncing) for 25damage.
The Dire Tiger has primary attacks (when pouncing) for 27damage.
The Dire Tiger occupies less space while it's dice outdamages the Allosaurus. However, the Allosaurus will get a +2 higher strength bonus and thus will outdamage the Dire Tiger by 3 points (the attack bonus will be the same). The Dire Tiger form has an advantage in that it has 3 grab attempts to the Allosaurus' 1. However the Allosaurus has a +2CMB advantage when grappling.
Overall yes, the Allosaurus is slightly better than the Dire Tiger.
Summary: When building a wild shaper go with the Saurian Shaman. However, for summoning Lion Shaman is still better imo (none of the bestiary 2 or 3 dinos are on the summon list). This is the same as the assertion I made back on june 1st. The reason I suggested wild shaping dinosaurs with only a single attack is because it is easier to build up the damage via feats (Power Attack, Furious Focus, and Vital Strike come to mind).
- Gauss
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Maybe all those animal shaman archetypes should have been summarized in more broader themes like the saurian shaman, I don't know, like Forest Druid, letting you excel at animals that dwell in forests, deserts and the like, or a primal druid letting you affect mammals, something akin to the saurian shaman,because frankly the animal archetypes just plain suck as they are written today.
It's a trap.
While i might agree that saurian shaman might be better than lion shaman when looking at the forms available, especially when looking at the allosaurus vs the dire tiger but remember that the allosaurus and most of the dinos are VERY large, that means that there will be times where you won't fit or even if you fit in the "battle room" there is good chance that you won't fit in the "roads" that take you from battle to battle.
It doesn't stack with Menhir Savant; therefore I don't like it.
I agree :-), Menhir Savant has great flavor and works well mechanically.
That said, Saurian Shaman is a fine Archetype by my book, as are some of the other Animal Shamans...
Alot of what some of them bring is the expand Domain list, which expands what you can achieve with a Druid.
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There are quite a few people on these forums that feel that if an archetype isn't at least 90% optimal, it's trash.
You can safely ignore them.
Honestly, the Lion Shaman is better than the Saurian Shaman for summoning. If you want Wild Shape, go saurian shaman. If you want summoning, go lion shaman. Usually druids build for either Wild Shape or Summoning, not both.
- Gauss
Does the Saurian Shaman archetype actually delay Wild Shape? I originally read it as giving Wild Shape at 4th level as normal and then modifying the way it functions when the druid hits 6th. I can see it going either way though. Has there been an official clarification on this?
As far as I understand (and the way it's implemented in HeroLab) it works like normal wild shape level 4-5 and then it's modified level 6+.
If Herolab is implementing it normally at levels 4 and 5 then it is doing so incorrectly.
Saurian Shamans (and all animal shamans) do not get the Wild shape ability in any form until level 6. At level 6 you gain the following:
Wild shape 'normal' at effective level 4
Wild shape Saurian at effective level 8
You have Saurian wild shape 2/day
You also have 'normal' OR Saurian wild shape 1/day
At Druid level 6 this adds up to 2 Saurian wild shapes and 1 'flexible' wild shape per day.
- Gauss
Here is the author's intent on shaman wild shapes:
Link
Michael Grimm wrote:
In the APG Druid Shaman entries, their wildshape is modified as follows:Quote:
Wild Shape (Su): At 6th level, a [type] shaman’s wild shapeability functions at her druid level – 2. If she takes on the
form of a [type], she instead uses her druid level + 2.
What does this +/- modify? Does it modify how long the ability lasts or the level of the ability you can use?Thank you.
Both.
As in, levels 1-5 you get no wild shaping.
At 6th level, you can use wild shape as if you were an 8th level druid if you turn into a (bear/eagle/etc.), lasting 8 hours, Huge to Diminutive, as beast shape III, up to 3 times per day.
You can turn into any other kind of animal as a 4th level druid, lasting 4 hours, Small or Medium, as beast shape I, only 1 time per day.
The times per day overlap, so you could turn into a (totem animal) 3/day, or into some other kind of animal 1/day and a (totem animal) 2/day.
- Gauss
It think Saurian is a great choice. A wildshaper is well off with Lion og Bear shamans as well.
What I don't really like with the Saurian (apart from the dino-stuff;-) is the fact that they are able to turn into everything the Serpent and Dragon Shamans can, plus a lot of other stuff.
A lot of the Shamans doesn't really make sense, as limited as they are. But as a GM, I would bring beer to the guy who chose to play the Bat-(sha)Man.
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I've come back from PaizoCon after slow tracking 7th level and finally reached 8th on the very last scenario. I can say that if I had it all to do over again I would not go saurian or likely any shaman archetype for that matter. I found that my assumptions of the cool things I'd be doing to be inaccurate. I spent far more time as a "tiny viper bracelet," tagging a ride on a ninja, then I did as an allosaurus. I also summoned few reptiles/dinosaurs and cast utility spells in their place.
While I do enjoy playing my saurian shaman, I feel that a straight druid would likely be more useful and provide more diversity in play. I played some pretty brutal encounters from the end of season 3, which may not speak for a majority of high level scenarios. I'm sure I'll have more to add at 10th and 12th levels.
Xebeche: can you expand on the your post? I am curious what prevented you from wild shaping into combat forms or summoning things?
- Gauss
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Xebeche: can you expand on the your post? I am curious what prevented you from wild shaping into combat forms or summoning things?
- Gauss
insaneogeddon hits on some reasons why the allosaurus was hard to pull off. Damage output was lackluster, especially if having to buff in combat. Sometimes you don't know when a combat is coming and even 10min/lvl buffs wear off between combats. I've also spent several feats on summoning, which doesn't help my shaman's combat abilities. At all...
My AC was terrible until 7th level when I got a +1 Wild Dragonhide Breastplate. It's still not good, but I no longer feel like every attack is an auto hit. And most importantly, 5 ft hallways… a large creature squeezing is one thing, but a huge allosaurus?
A tiny, stealthy viper darting out from a sleeve after the ninja disarmed the opponent? That's kinda cool… Especially if the bite and poison land. I felt like I had more creative options using the forms that I figured I'd never use. Wild Shape has been powerful for the abilities the animals give, not so much damage, and especially not the survivability. Swimming, climbing, flying, grabbing, etc. These are great! There were characters at the table that couldn't contribute during each combat. This is not the case with a druid and creative thinking. Useful spell selection, a willingness to use forms that fell outside "OMGBIGDMG," and working as a team member contributed to a very enjoyable time.
I've come to regard shamans as largely inferior PC archetypes with some exceptions. But I've gotten a bit away from the question now, haven't I?
i think you are underestimating the power of shamans, you can always take the forms of other animals if needed. even level 4 is good enough for a medium critter (raw nothing says that shamans don't get wild shape at 4). Even if you cant find something you want to shape as, your still a full caster, shamans don't lose much over normal druid.
Also don't forget that Deinonychus comes from a spell that's 2 levels lower, and that dinosaurs are tall critters. So by the time you got dire tiger, i have 1d3 large Deinonychus' with 10 foot reach (+1 with Superior Summoning). Lacking room? summon 1d3 advanced Deinonychus'. You can do the same with tigers, true, but also saurian shaman has more options. Summon a young Brachiosaurus, with great cleave and trample. Or 1d3 Ankylosaurus and stun. Not to mention Tigers and lions don't help much if your under water, or in the air.
I would highly recommend Feather subdomain for your Saurian shaman. I just finished one and it was awesome. You still get your animal companion and Feather subdomain means you are better at Perception than anyone, ever. You get domain spells (including Fly and Mass Fly, which aren't otherwise on the druid list,) along with the maneuverability boost from Feather subdomain. Take Boon Companion at level 5 and your companion is at full power, PLUS you got domain spells and the awesome perception boost at the cost of a feat!
Plus, it's so thematic - dinos were the first ones to have feathers!
My Allosaurus companion (Run Fun Fun) took Dragon Style so she could pounce all the time, and on a hit did 2d6 bonus damage from wearing Rhino Hide.
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My Allosaurus companion (Run Fun Fun) took Dragon Style so she could pounce all the time, and on a hit did 2d6 bonus damage from wearing Rhino Hide.
SO MUCH QUESO!
Do specific armors come in barding form?Your Dino had the prereqs for Dragon Style?
Honestly it looks fun but I think I would've looked at you like your were pulling my leg if you asked if it was ok.
My Allosaurus companion (Run Fun Fun) took Dragon Style so she could pounce all the time, and on a hit did 2d6 bonus damage from wearing Rhino Hide.SO MUCH QUESO!
Do specific armors come in barding form?
Your Dino had the prereqs for Dragon Style?Honestly it looks fun but I think I would've looked at you like your were pulling my leg if you asked if it was ok.
Yeah, I had to take Imp Unarmed Strike as a feat tax and waste a lot of skills on acrobatics, but I think it was worth it. I got DM approval on the armor, though.
But I mean, isn't it rather fitting for an allosaurus to take Dragon Style?
What role would the dino shaman play in the group?