prinygod's page

So i had and idea and looking over the rules it would seem to be legal unless i missed something.

"An arcanist can only cast a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. Her base daily spell allotment is given on Table: Arcanist under “Spells per Day.” In addition, she receives bonus spells per day if she has a high Intelligence score.

An arcanist may know any number of spells, but the number she can prepare each day is limited. At 1st level, she can prepare four 0-level spells and two 1st-level spells each day. At each new arcanist level, the number of spells she can prepare each day increases, adding new spell levels as indicated on Table: Arcanist Spells Prepared. Unlike the number of spells she can cast per day, the number of spells an arcanist can prepare each day is not affected by her Intelligence score. Feats and other effects that modify the number of spells known by a spellcaster instead affect the number of spells an arcanist can prepare."

So a High ability score gives bonus spells that can be used by a caster. Normally though even if one had the bonus spell they would not be able to cast it because they both lacked the caster level and lacked the spell slot(ie spell knowledge).

"This page is covered in densely-worded arcane or divine magical runes. It contains the knowledge of a single arcane or divine spell (chosen by the creator when the item is crafted). If the bearer is a spontaneous spellcaster and has that spell on her class spell list, she may use her spell slots to cast that spell as if it were one of her spells known. A page of spell knowledge is priced based on the spell's cleric or sorcerer/wizard spell level, unless the spell doesn't appear on either of those spell lists, in which case it is based on the highest spell level as it appears on any other spell list. For example, a spell that is on the 4th-level inquisitor list and the 2nd-level paladin list is priced as a 4th-level spell."

With this item the arcanist both have spell slots (thanks to high attribute bonus) and spells prepared thanks to the wording of arcanist's casting block and the magic item "Page of spell knowledge". But you still need a high enough caster level to cast the spell

"A spell's power often depends on its caster level, which for most spellcasting characters is equal to her class level in the class she's using to cast the spell.

You can cast a spell at a lower caster level than normal, but the caster level you choose must be high enough for you to cast the spell in question, and all level-dependent features must be based on the same caster level.

In the event that a class feature or other special ability provides an adjustment to your caster level, that adjustment applies not only to effects based on caster level (such as range, duration, and damage dealt), but also to your caster level check to overcome your target's spell resistance and to the caster level used in dispel checks (both the dispel check and the DC of the check."

So your caster level is usually your class level but there are plenty of feats and abilities that can boost it above the class level. If one was able to meet the spell slot, the spell knowlege, and the caster level requirements, would anything prevent them from being able cast spells before they could normally access them?

Except that calling spells are not blocked explicitly either (except for possibly gate, which can be used as plane shift)

Maybe it's just, you know, something that's generally more difficult to do than jump over a hole.

True but should moving past a dragon be equally as hard as wrestling it?

I am hearing a lot how one can get high acrobatic ranks with magic items, feats, class bonuses. But the opposite is true. You get +6 belt of dex, i get belt of +6 dex and strength (double the cmb bonus). You get skill focus (up to +6 bonus), i get ring of protection 5. You get +5 magic item for acrobatics, which means you have a net +3 to tumble if i did my math right. But all my stuff helps my ac, attack, cmd (against other stuff), and you have wasted a feat on a check you can barely make.

The target line of the spell says one creature or one creature/level. If you can hold the charge of a spell that specifies targets touched, then what's stopping you from holding charges of dimension door or teleport?

Nothing suggests you can touch the same creature twice. It says one creature per level.
Compare touching multiple targets to other things you can do at that level. It is not to farfetched when you think about it. At level 3, attacking 3 targets as opposed to using burning hands on them makes sense balancewise. The rules appear to support it as well.

You are making alot of irrelevant points, making your arguement more complicated than it ever should be. If you want yes you can hold a charge of dimension door and teleport, but that has nothing to do with chill touch.

You are making arbitrary leaps in you interpretations of the rules. Why would the spell need to spell out that you can touch a creature multiple times, but feel that subverting the normal multi-touch rules need no mention. I'm using the simplest interpretation, yet you cling to your needlessly complicated one while dismissing mine out of hand.

Magic wrote:

Some touch spells allow you to touch multiple targets as part of the spell. You can’t hold the charge of such a spell; you must touch all targets of the spell in the same round that you finish casting the spell.

You cannot hold the charge of a chill touch spell.

Chill Touch wrote:

You can use this melee touch attack up to one time per level.

Specific trumps general. Chill touch specifically says you can make one touch attack per level. This overrides the rule that you can only touch 6 *willing* targets. And if you still say that you can hold the charge, you can indeed do as I described as you can touch 6 creatures as a full round action.

But it doesn't specifically say it trump the rule that you can only touch mutiple willing targets. The rule about not saving a multiple touch charge is specifically referring to touching multiple creatures at the casting. Chill touch only allows you to touch one creature at the casting, giving you additional touches to use at some undefined point of time.

Interesting thought though, nothing prevents you from touching a creature multiple times. So if we went with your interpretation a level 20 caster with chill touch could land 20 touches in the first casting of the spell, if all hit the foe would be looking at 20d6 damage and would have to make 20 fortitude saves potentially losing 20 points of strength.

Each of those attacks would allow a sneak attack/spell strike and if you opponent goes down take a move action so you can deliver the rest to the next opponent. If this sounds like the appropriate power of a level 1 spell, then i suppose you might be right. If not then you might be inclined to believe that my interpretation is more reasonable

Yeah dont forget multiple touches per casting is only when touching willing targets. And there are not many who will let you lay on them with chill touch. But yeah it is very nice. I have an arcane trickster that i am currently running with. I really enjoy playing him, but he has 2 real big weaknesses. 1. his bab is terrible really hurting his to hit rate. 2. he has less spells for a wizard of his level, and many slots are dedicated to non-combat spells and buffs. With chill touch i get a spell that allows me to deliver multiple sneak attacks as a touch attack when i get low on my attack spells, with out having to resort to a weapon that i would have trouble hitting with.

Let's forget about holding the charge for a second. You cannot hold the charge with Chill Touch. In this case, chill touch allows you to touch one creature per level as part of the casting. So the question now is:

Can a magus use spellstrike to deliver Chill Touch to multiple creatures with a melee weapon attack in place of each touch attack?

Spellstrike wrote:

At 2nd level, whenever a magus casts a spell with a range of “touch” from the magus spell list, he can deliver the spell through any weapon he is wielding as part of a melee attack. Instead of the free melee touch attack normally allowed to deliver the spell, a magus can make one free melee attack with his weapon (at his highest base attack bonus) as part of casting this spell.

This is where it gets weird. A case could be made for either side. On one hand, spellstrike says a magus can make one free melee attack with his weapon as part of casting the spell, and some people will interpret it that way. On the other hand, you could say that since it says "he can deliver the spell through any weapon he is wielding as part of a melee attack" you could make multiple attacks. I could see it going either way. Perhaps we should make a FAQ request for it?

I went over this above, spell strike as already been errata/faq Spell strike can be used just as with normal casting, just with a weapon. Since its legal to deliver a charge with an unarmed attack, even after casting, It should too be legal for Magus with a weapon to do the same. You don't need the free attack granted by a touch spell to deliver a spell strike.

Bardez wrote:

Evershifter wrote:

Can I use Spell Combat to continue to deliver Chill Touches?

You can't just say "I use Spell Combat to deliver another charge." To use Spell Combat, you need to cast a spell. If you have TWF, you could use that to deliver multiple charges, but not Spell Combat.

I agree that's what the rules say, but let's push the situation a little bit. Suppose the magus using spell combat casts a touch spell with a single touch charge and, due to a bad roll, misses. Now, he can't use the same general fighting style to retry the touch attack despite the situation becoming less complicated because now he no longer has to actually cast the spell that round. He has to either make a touch attack or strike with his weapon (which could still discharge the spell but requires him to hit the full AC of the target), cutting down what he can do despite removing a complication.

As I say, I agree that the text of the rules does not allow that, I'm just not sure that it would be a game breaker to allow the magus to make his touch attacks along with his other attacks at the easier spell combat penalties even if he's not actually casting a spell.

Normally it is allowed to make a touch as part of an attack, but only with unarmed stike. There is nothing preventing one holding a charge to initiate a full attack with the first one connecting delivering the spell. Magus thanks to spell strike can use a weapon, so delivering a spell as part of a full attack is ok. In fact with spell combat i recommend that you cast the spell first, that way even if your free attack misses, you might be able to deliver you spell with one of your normal attacks.

I think that the last sentence - "If the spell allows you to touch targets over multiple rounds, touching 6 creatures is a full-round action" - is what would apply here. Chill Touch is not technically a 'charge' spell; it is a spell that allows you to touch targets over multiple rounds.

Thats the strange thing about chill touch. Most spells that grant you a touch attack are personal spells, with a duration. See elemental touch. Your not targeting your self but the opponent, your not giving your self a touch attack the spell is one.

"Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S
EFFECT

Range touch
Targets creature or creatures touched (up to one/level)
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw Fortitude partial or Will negates; see text; Spell Resistance yes

[This content was created for the Pathfinder rules by Paizo Publishing LLC and is part of the Pathfinder RPG product line.]
DESCRIPTION

A touch from your hand, which glows with blue energy, disrupts the life force of living creatures. Each touch channels negative energy that deals 1d6 points of damage. The touched creature also takes 1 point of Strength damage unless it makes a successful Fortitude saving throw. You can use this melee touch attack up to one time per level.

An undead creature you touch takes no damage of either sort, but it must make a successful Will saving throw or flee as if panicked for 1d4 rounds + 1 round per caster level."

Technically the section about willing targets is during the casting of the spell. It might be legal to use a full round to touch 6 hostile targets, on a subsequent turn. Said touch turning to weapon attacks thanks to spell strike.

Magic: Touch Spells and Holding the Charge wrote:

In most cases, if you don't discharge a touch spell on the round you cast it, you can hold the charge (postpone the discharge of the spell) indefinitely. You can make touch attacks round after round until the spell is discharged. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates.

Some touch spells allow you to touch multiple targets as part of the spell. You can't hold the charge of such a spell; you must touch all targets of the spell in the same round that you finish casting the spell.

To quote the portion that Robert A. was mentioning.

I believe this is the mechanics Jiggy was rebutting in his above post.

I would argue that this essentially makes the additional charges of Chill Touch fairly useless, since it is mostly useful at lower levels when you are limited in spells, but could not take advantage of them because of the low BAB\melee capability of casters.

[edit]
There is an alternative here, and that would be that when Chill Touch says that it gives you additional melee touch attacks, it means during that turn. That, however, would make it a disturbingly powerful spell for magi.

I found the section about multi touch

You must touch a creature or object to affect it. A touch spell that deals damage can score a critical hit just as a weapon can. A touch spell threatens a critical hit on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a successful critical hit. Some touch spells allow you to touch multiple targets. You can touch up to 6 willing targets as part of the casting, but all targets of the spell must be touched in the same round that you finish casting the spell. If the spell allows you to touch targets over multiple rounds, touching 6 creatures is a full-round action."

Magic section states that you cannot hold the charge of multi target touch spells. You must touch all targets in the round that you cast it. So i guess we were both wrong. I cant copy paste it atm from my phone though :(

That would defeat the purpose of Chill touch having multiple touches, normally you can only multi-touch willing targets. You either touch one hostile target or up to 6 willing targets, you cannot touch 6 hostile targets. Which would mean that you could only touch one enemy once with the remaining charges getting wasted at the end of you turn. Unless Chill touch works differently which is what most assume.

Spell combat only give the -2 penalty during the Full round action that you use it in. Spell strike is a separate ability that that lets you deliver a weapon attack channeling the spell as part of the free touch granted by casting touch spells. Unfortunately the ability does not addresses subsequent touches. But consider this errata

http://paizo.com/paizo/blog/v5748dyo5ld3d?FAQ-Attack

"Can a magus use spellstrike (Ultimate Magic, page 10) to cast a touch spell, move, and make a melee attack with a weapon to deliver the touch spell, all in the same round?

Basically, the spellstrike gives the magus more options when it comes to delivering touch spells; it’s not supposed to make it more difficult for the magus to use touch spells."

This errata allows both the normal rules for casting, including delivering a missed touch on a subsequent turn with a normal attack. Therefor nothing prevents a Chill touch from being deliver again with a weapon the next turn so long as you still have charges left.

However you do not gain a free touch attack each turn just when you cast. You will need to use an standard or full attack (special maneuvers like charge should be fine too).

I understand this ruling, i wouldn't try to pull this off in a game normally, but check Paragraph.

"Effects of Metamagic Feats on a Spell: In all ways, a metamagic spell operates at its original spell level, even though it is prepared and cast using a higher-level spell slot. Saving throw modifications are not changed unless stated otherwise in the feat description"

So in all ways, a maximized Vampire touch is a level 3 spell, in-spite of its spell slot. I understand is mainly meant to lower the strength of the spell, in comparison to its spell slot, but would also apply to when having a lower spell level is beneficial. I.e. crafting costs and yes spell storing.

"A spell storing weapon allows a spellcaster to store a single targeted spell of up to 3rd level in the weapon. (The spell must have a casting time of 1 standard action.)"

No mention of spell slot, just spell level. Which i pointed out is "In all ways" its original spell level.

I am a bit tired and only skimmed the thread, so this may have been mentioned, but neither Mutagen nor beastmorph are listed polymorph effects. The for they can be used with monstrous form or Giant form. So shape into a 2 headed troll with fly, Regen, foracity, and 4 primary attacks ect. Or a four armed Gargoyle. 6 primary attacks. Not enough attacks for you? Attacks granted by classes apply to polymorphs, take vestigal arm and feral mutagen for 6 claws. Also with 2 combine extracts 1 delay extract, eternal potion and the fast drink trait, you can have 6 magical effects (5 if you choose to drink a mutagen) after the first turn

I don't know how damage will stack with rage pounce lancer, but nothing is stopping the alchemist from getting a mount and lance (dipping if necessary)

i think you are underestimating the power of shamans, you can always take the forms of other animals if needed. even level 4 is good enough for a medium critter (raw nothing says that shamans don't get wild shape at 4). Even if you cant find something you want to shape as, your still a full caster, shamans don't lose much over normal druid.

Also don't forget that Deinonychus comes from a spell that's 2 levels lower, and that dinosaurs are tall critters. So by the time you got dire tiger, i have 1d3 large Deinonychus' with 10 foot reach (+1 with Superior Summoning). Lacking room? summon 1d3 advanced Deinonychus'. You can do the same with tigers, true, but also saurian shaman has more options. Summon a young Brachiosaurus, with great cleave and trample. Or 1d3 Ankylosaurus and stun. Not to mention Tigers and lions don't help much if your under water, or in the air.