|
I do not know 4th. Core is only book you "have to have", and some who are familar with 3.5 get away with just using the PRD.
Inner Sea World Guide is a very nice campaign setting guide.
Beastarys are nice to have
Advanced Players Guide/Ultimate Magic/Ultimate Combat all are nice for players and also have alternate rules for your games.
I think that is the basics. The Path is clear.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The only books you NEED to have are the Core Rulebook and Bestiary.
The nice ones to have are the other Bestiaries for more monsters to employ, and the Advanced Players Guide, Ultimate Magic, and Ultimate Combat for more character options.
The best feel for the world would probably be the Inner Sea World Guide, as that has all the setting information you need.
The Rise of the Runelords AP is a good introduction to the setting and the game, and a collected hardcover of the entire path is being produced, so you'll be able to get all six adventures with updated stats and errata included, along with extra content not included in the original issues. The Crown of the Kobold King and We Be Goblins modules are less time-consuming investments if you want to dip your toes in before jumping fully into it.
You may want to hold off on the APG, UM, and UC until you are more familiar with the system.
If you have been doing a LOT of 4e then Pathfinder is going to feel underwhelming. 4E is all about lots of different powers and choices per turn as to what to do.
Pathfinder only has that if you are a spellcaster.
4e is the WOW of tabletops. Glossy and flashy. All combat with little RP. And min-maxing powers that have nothing to do with character flavor.
Pathfinder seems to provide more opportunity for roleplaying and building a character to an idea/theme.
All combat with little RP.This is entirely the fault of the group, not the system. Please stop inciting edition wars.
TOZ is right. Roleplaying has nothing to do with game mechanics. You can roleplay when playing MONOPOLY if you wish so.
This is entirely the fault of the group, not the system. Please stop inciting edition wars.
Your post does not, in any way, address the question of the OP.
What should I avoid?
As you played 3.5 before expect that you will probably try to use 3.5 rules only to find they were changed in subtle way. After two years I still run myself into noticing minor changes I missed before. Or I don't notice until someone points it here on the boards.
TOZ is right. Roleplaying has nothing to do with game mechanics. You can roleplay when playing MONOPOLY if you wish so.
Nor does yours.
Less b#$!@ing about my post and more answering the question, how about?
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I play or run both editions on alternating weekends, and PFS on the occasional Wednesday, and I enjoy both immensely. Both can involve min-maxing. Both can be flashy. Both can have a lot of RP and character-based choices for abilities, feats and powers, and both can have the opposite.
Every class in Pathfinder has lots of options, and the ones in the APG have far, far more (in general) than the Core classes. In either case, it helps to have cards. I use Perram's spellbook for my spell/extract cards, but I also tend to make cards for my martial characters. 4E has taught me how incredibly useful it is to have hit/damage information on cards, even for fighters, especially if they use multiple weapons at different levels of proficiency. If a fighter uses Power Attack sometimes, it's nice to have a card. Dazzling Display? Ditto. Multi-class? Hell yeah.
One of core differences seems to be that 4E's basic design is permission oriented: you can't do something unless a power/ability specifically allows it. Thus, you can't disarm, trip, grapple, etc, unless you have a relevant power. PF is exclusion-based: you can try to do anything, unless a rule or power specifically says you can't.
The mechanic that PF uses for a lot of this is the "Combat Maneuver." Get to know the maneuver rules and options, especially dirty trick, reposition, trip and grapple. These will come up a lot. You might even want to make cards for them. If you're ever in doubt when I player says "I want to do X," look at the skills and maneuvers. There's probably a mechanism for it. Then you set a difficulty or make an opposed roll. That's probably the hardest thing to get used to, saying "make a roll for it" and setting a number to beat.
For books: what books do you want to show your players? I have a hard copy of the Core Rulebook and the Inner Sea World Guide, because I want to pass them around. The Bestiaries, the APG the Ultimate books, those I have on PDF. If you have an IPad or similar device then PDF is all you really need, at first.
TOZ is right about Rise of the Runelords - it's a great introduction. I would also surf the PFwiki for a while, read about the gods and the different countries. If you've played 4E, you'll likely appreciate the PF is a setting as much as a system. Read some of the web-fiction.
Must run? The Harrowing. We Be Goblins. Avoid? Second Darkness. Beyond that it's all subjective and depends on the preferences of your group. Paizo has been god about putting out a variety of paths and modules to appeal to a variety of tastes. I'd recommend reading the reviews and messageboard threads for the top rated modules and buying PDFs of a couple. If you want to get your feet wet slowly, buy a couple of Pathfinder Society modules, since you can run them in a game session and give your players a feel for different parts of the world, quickly. At $4 a pop, pick up the four highest rated and you have a couple months of adventuring before you commit to a whole adventure path.
By the time you're done with that the Rise of the Runelords hardcover should be out and you can dive in.
TOZ is right. Roleplaying has nothing to do with game mechanics. You can roleplay when playing MONOPOLY if you wish so.Nor does yours.
Less b!&&~ing about my post and more answering the question, how about?
Really dude? Really?
In any case the only thing you really need is the core rule book. The APG, UM, and UC are all good but not necessary. The Bestiary's are cool, you cant really go bad in grabbing one.
Something to note though is that all these books are available on the PRD or at D20pfsrd. The PRD is official and well organized while the d20 site is fan run and has a lot more stuff, some of which is fan made or 3rd party so be careful when using them.
I've never heard of any bad adventure paths from Paizo. That being said 'We be Goblins' and a couple others are available free on the site.
The Inner Sea World Guide is a great book to get a feel for the world. It's a compilation of many of Paizo's previous regional splat books with a few extra things.
Avoid PFS play until you get a feel for the system and you've played for a while. It's rather restrictive and in my experience has turned a few "Old school" gamers off the way 4th did.
TOZ is right. Roleplaying has nothing to do with game mechanics. You can roleplay when playing MONOPOLY if you wish so.Nor does yours.
Less b!@!$ing about my post and more answering the question, how about?
Citizen, you are under arrest for impersonation of an officer of the law. Please come along quietly.
Some things I can think of right off:
1. I am not aware of as many electronic support options for the DM, I really miss 4e turn tracker and the compendium.
2. Classes are harder to unbalance in 4e, particularly at low level. Specifically, you can make a character that just sucks in PF a lot easier than in 4e. The flip side is that I feel like there is a lot more freedom in building a character's mechanics in PF.
3. Spells and abilities are more open ended in PF, which can be good or bad or mixed depending on the group. This does seem to encourage RP in players more than 4e's mechanics were I had to push my players a bit more (this may have been a group thing though).
4. PF is generally more clunky and less consistant in its mechanics; saves instead of defenses, "denied dex" instead of "combat advantage", no marking or other established aggro mechanics, less adherence to established status effects (although it is better than 3.5 IMO), healing is less structured, durations are more confusing, ability use is generally rounds/day instead of encounter or daily, etc (because I'm lazy).
5. PF adventures are very good, although I cannot compare to 4e because I never used any 4e premade adventures (I adapted Hellfrost, which was awesome).
If you ran a bunch of 3.5, I can't imagine you finding Pathfinder much different. It's basically the same (just polished up a little), especially from the DM side.
I saw BltzKrg242's post and thought "That didn't take long", but it was well taken care of just as quickly.
In either case, like people have mostly said, if you enjoyed 3.5, you'll enjoy Pathfinder. It's a pretty good indicator, as they are very similar.
If you liked 3.5 and have spent the last few years playing 4th ed. (thats what happened to me) you will be pleased with the return.
Read up on Combat. Cannot overstate this.
I'm playing in Kingmaker right now. Its a blast.
Inner Sea Guide is pretty cool. It obviously integrates elements of earth history and of other popular settings, but I think it is well done, both to play and to read.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The others have covered the core game and the startup experience pretty well. I'd add that it can be disorienting how many little tiny changes exist from 3.5 — expect your memory to betray you a lot when it comes to details (like how specific feats work), but broad stroke are the same.
TOZ is right, hold off on the APG, UM and UC until you feel the need for more options. There's a lot going on in the core rules, don't let your players pressure you into including everything at once. You can and should play for years with the core rules and bestiary before needed any room to stretch into new books.
The "feel" of those expansions, though, is quite a bit different from the 3e splatbooks. Generally, there's more to process, but more content is good, right? Also, the options tend to be "replacement" rules that get swapped out for existing class features, rather than having everything interesting and cool at the other end of a prestige class. And there're a ton of feats and spells, of course.
For setting, get the ISWG (izz-wig!) if you want to know how all of the adventures fit together. The setting is very kitchen-sink, there's a bit of everything. Just ignore the stuff you don't want and it works great.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Everyone else has covered the major differences pretty thoroughly. Expect combat at early levels to run a lot faster, especially if your players all played 3/3.5 as well. There're less hit points across the board than in 4e, and this was one of the big reasons I went to PF. In 4e a lvl 1 kobold has 20-some odd health, whereas in PF it has 5. In 4e a fighter has the capability to deal out around 4-13 damage per round at the high end. This is the same in PF, so you can see how fights won't last as long at the low end of things. Of course as more options become available, this evens out.
In Pathfinder, your players will likely find a lot more to customize and personalize their characters, but it takes longer to make one IMHO, especially if you used the Character Builder for your 4e characters.
If you're writing your own material, expect things to take much longer, as (especially at mid to high levels), you'll be having to creature your opponents from scratch, adding class levels and such. In 4e, designing balanced, yet challenging encounters was a much simpler process.
If your planning on running mods, it's hard to recommend one without knowing your or your players' preferences. But an overview of all the Adventure Paths can be found here. I personally recommend Rise of the Runelords, Curse of the Crimson Throne, or Kingmaker for introductions into PF (Be aware that the first two are written for 3.5 and so might need some minor conversion). For games requiring less commitment, go with one of the modules. We Be Goblins is a fun one because it's short, and you get to be goblins.
Hope this helps.
|
Someone else mentioned it, but I would like to restate it more obviously: check out the PRD (Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Reference Document). These are all off the RULE books published by Paizo - available for free! This page allows you to read over the rules while you are waiting for your order to arrive.
In addition to the great suggestions for introductory modules, I would like to suggest Crypt of the Everflame. It's main purpose is as a Pathfinder introductory module to help transition from the 3.5 rules to the Pathfinder rules.
|
Well, having come from not playing in about a year, 3, 3.5,4 before that, I can say what I "felt" the most as a GM is the fine little things. The change to Rank buying for skills, the melee flanking rules, the Spell ranges/areas, the general flow of the game is slightly slower than one might expect. But it is more RP inclined (IMHO) than the old Hack n Slash D&Ds (modules are more descriptive when they need to be).
ATM I am running a group of 4 rogues, and despite all being rogues we have an "archer" rogue, a "mage" rogue, a "fighter" rogue and a "acrobatic" rogue. So there is tons of variation within a single class. You can build almost anything you want or can imagine in some fashion or another. Level progression is ok for us. Used normal for the first adventure, and then did a fast track during the second to bring them up to where they "supposedly" should be. But honestly, they probably could have done without. Only reason I am keeping them fast is because of the "holes" in campaign level requirements for modules.
TOZ is right. Roleplaying has nothing to do with game mechanics. You can roleplay when playing MONOPOLY if you wish so.All combat with little RP.This is entirely the fault of the group, not the system. Please stop inciting edition wars.
To be honest though 4E doesn't leave much room for role playing. It's not that you can't role play but the combat encounters and game mechanics take up most of your time. This isn't a bad thing though just different style of game.
The reason I never made the leap to 4e is that I've never had a good experience with the adventure writing over at Wizards of the Coast, so I stayed with Paizo for the writing more than for the system. The WotC stuff I've liked has been generally written by the current Paizo stable of writers and editors.
So, the biggest change will be the high quality world-building and adventures designed for it. I'd recommend Kingmaker, Curse of the Crimson Throne, Carrion Crown, and Skull & Shackles as APs; the Falcon's Hollow mini-AP; and modules like Entombed with the Pharaohs, Carnival of Tears, Hangman's Noose, Crucible of Chaos, the Pact Stone Pyramid, and a wide variety of Pathfinder scenarios. (And while I cite a bunch of 3.5e works, it's pretty easy to convert 3.5 stuff.)
And, an important point: while there are some APs that flop for me (Second Darkness, Council of Thieves), there's always been usable parts to every AP. There's usually some neat scene (the play of CoT, the casino of SD), great adventure (the entire opening module of Legacy of Fire, the LOST scenario of Serpent's Skull), or simply usable enemies. There's flavor.
|
|
Three sessions of 4E is all the experience I have. The whole thing had a very MMO with dice feel to it. There was a lot of blank stares, rolling dice, playing with Iphones, and muttered joking and trash talking, that I think was RP.
I am not dissing 4E here, but the whole experience left a bad taste in my mouth. On the other end, I have had some very awesome experiences with Pathfinder. Even when I was playing through the Beta test, I loved the balanced and smooth resurrection of 3.5 into Pathfinder.
The flavor, art, and gameplay is great. The customer service of Paizo is good too. For some, nothing is ever enough, but I find the dedication to customer input and satisfaction is one of the best.
That's a snap. You'll need to change two things, spell DCs and saving throws.
1) Saving throws go up by 10, and become defenses. No more rolling.
2) DCs for spells and effects go down by 10, and you DO roll.
Ex) old way
Wizard casts sleep at four halflings. Wizard has DC of 14, halflings have will saves of +2 (+d20). Wizard expects to get two, three if he's lucky.
Ex) new way
Wizard casts sleep at four halflings. Wizard has bonus of +4 (+d20), halflings have will defenses of +12. Wizard expects to get two, three if he's lucky.
Be careful not to define these at attacks, you do NOT want things like Bless to raise your likelihood of getting spells to work. That's just too powerful.
You might want to check that.
|
|
You might want to check that.
Can you quote the relevant details for those of us who cannot open a .docx file?
|
|
My biggest thing is I would like to put the die in the hands of the attacker every time so does any one know of houserules to covert saving throws into defenses?
Pathfinder is backwards compatible with 3.5, so the Unearthed Arcana rules of Players Roll All The Dice are just as valid.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |