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Spells like True Res can make it almost impossible to ensure defeated enemies stay defeated. Of course, by 'defeat', I mean 'dead' (aka no more, ceased to be, expired and gone to meet its maker, a stiff, bereft of life, resting in peace, nailed to the perch else he'd be pushing up the daisies, etc.)
I have no trouble when the PC's pool resources and raise a fallen ally so its not really my issue. In fact, they're the ones feeling a little frustrated. At 9th level, they certainly don't have the resources for a True Res. However, they believe that a dead doppelganger assassin they've just offed was part of an organization that could do it. They've logicked that a doppelganger assassin is probably worth 10x the cost of a True Res so they're sure it will happen.
IMO, even if the org gives the assassin a true res, the PC's are now at the level where they have access to True Seeing. They're not going to waste that assassin on the PC's. But, even with that in mind, that's just this specific case. I know there are various ways you can trap or destroy a soul. That's all cool but those options aren't really available at 9th level, either. So how do you deal with it?
Completely destroy the body. Makes it harder for lower level magic.
Trapping the soul is also a viable option.
If someone absolutely must stay dead, incapacitate forever without actually killing them. Stone to flesh, as one example of many.
Have a cacodaemon familiar eat the things soul, hen trade it to an imp, or osme other outsider you can call with lesser planar biniding -- for a favor.
There are some low-level cleric spells that can reduce the chance of something being raised, usually by forcing the caster to make a level check.
Capture the assassin, make friends with it, and convert it to your cause so that it's former masters will not wish to raise it and/or it will not accept.a raise from them.
Find a high level wizard you can pay, or do a favor for, or otherwise get to cast imprisonment on the assassin. Probably not easy.
Take the assassin to some other plane and leave him there. If you're lucky, the other organization will never learn what becomes of hom.
Baleful polymorph him into a goldfish, hamster, or small white cat. Take very good care of your new pet.
Raise the victim as an undead skeleton and hide it somewhere.
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If you really want to remove someone in a world with resurrection, the best way is to imprison them. Since they're not dead, they can't be raised. Every wonder why there are so many freaking dungeons in the world?
There's your answer.
When I sit down to play with my group of 4, there's over 150 man-years of delving, thwarting and looting dungeons... where, from time to time, the loot included rescuing something or someone that had been trapped there in. I'm not so sure that suggestion is going to make my players feel all that much better.
Also, I gotta take into account that this prison has to be created by 9th level PC's who are trying to make it difficult for an NPC that can cast True Res. So, what's that? ~18th level? Probably not gonna work.
That level of magic is rare in most GM's worlds and the material component is expensive. Most PC's have more loot than kings(the king's personal money). If it were that easy to raise people kings would be really hard to assassinate.
If your GM is treating NPC's organizations like they have unlimited wealth and spellcasting there is not much you can do. He will probably just use wish or miracle if he really wants to keep the NPC around.
If you are the GM, then the "returning NPC" gets old after a while. It is on of those things that should be very rare.
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Have a cacodaemon familiar eat the things soul, hen trade it to an imp, or osme other outsider you can call with lesser planar biniding -- for a favor.
This DEFINTELY works under most circumstances. This particular party includes a Paladin of Iomedae. I'm not so sure he'd buy an idea like this. Its one thing for Pharasma to send a soul to Hell but that's her divine job, not his.
Capture the assassin, make friends with it, and convert it to your cause so that it's former masters will not wish to raise it and/or it will not accept.a raise from them.
Before they killed it (before they even knew it was a doppelganger), it offered to come work for them. We're playing Kingmaker so they could actually have used an assassin. The party, beyond the paladin I mentioned, are NG, LG and LN. None of them wanted any part of whatever it meant to have an assassin on retainer.
Baleful polymorph him into a goldfish, hamster, or small white cat. Take very good care of your new pet.
This was an option that was discussed.
Honestly, I think my players are too paranoid. Too many years of gaming have moved them passed being merely jaded to being being encresuted with actual emeralds. They're sure that a Baleful Polymorphed mousey will be found by these imagined uber-powerful NPC's and returned to its normal form, anyway...
Just say that the slain prefers the afterlife and does not wish to return or whatever god decided to not allow it.
....he's just mostly dead.....has been all day ;)
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This is why I hate Raise Dead and similar. I only allow it in my games because it is very difficult to remove from the system.
Theoretically a spellcaster can cast this spell in every city on the planet. Whilst it is out of reach for most people it makes assassination virtually impossible for anyone who can rustle up 5,500 gold. Like for example:
If I could change one thing about Pathfinder I would rework Raise Dead and the like.
Destroy the body. Without part of the body they would have to use a True Res and unless they know when and where the deceased was either born or died (highly unlikely in both cases unless a witness from the final encounter escaped) then even True Res doesn't work.
Couldn't you also raise them as mindless undead and then kill them again in an extreme measure?
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I usually rule that unless whatever Deity you cast for does not deem them worthy then it doesnt work. Hense most bad guys, or normal non heroic people cant recieve a resurrection.
This usually means that only heroes (aka the players) can benefit from the spell.
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That level of magic is rare in most GM's worlds and the material component is expensive. Most PC's have more loot than kings(the king's personal money). If it were that easy to raise people kings would be really hard to assassinate.
If your GM is treating NPC's organizations like they have unlimited wealth and spellcasting there is not much you can do. He will probably just use wish or miracle if he really wants to keep the NPC around.
If you are the GM, then the "returning NPC" gets old after a while. It is on of those things that should be very rare.
It isn't ANY org that would have the funds. This org might... but for a specific reason and its campaign-specific.
Funny enough, we've just had the "too rich for kings" thing come up in our game. Since we're running Kingmaker and the PC's wanted to pull funds from the treasury to resurrect the Warden (the assassin's victim), they argued that there shouldn't be Unrest since they're basically repairing the kingdom. I reminded them that there isn't anyone in the kingdom that can't make an argument that some free money spent their way isn't a kingdom improvement. And when you tell Merchant Bob that his family isn't important enough to resurrect with kingdom funds while you're pulling money from the treasury to resurrect each other, you can figure the people might not be thrilled.
Honestly, going as far back as I can remember, I can't recall one single NPC I've ever brought back by GM fiat'ing a resurrected bad guy.
Capture the assassin, make friends with it, and convert it to your cause so that it's former masters will not wish to raise it and/or it will not accept.a raise from them.Before they killed it (before they even knew it was a doppelganger), it offered to come work for them. We're playing Kingmaker so they could actually have used an assassin. The party, beyond the paladin I mentioned, are NG, LG and LN. None of them wanted any part of whatever it meant to have an assassin on retainer.
Retired assassins make the best assassin-prevention specialists. Even if I was a Paladin or another LG type, if the Assassin offered to work for me, I would jump at the chance to hire one to train all my King's personal bodyguards (Assuming, of course, they showed signs of repentance, not chronic back-stabing disorder. You could use it as a RP opportunity to try to convert the assassin to good.)
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This is why I hate Raise Dead and similar. I only allow it in my games because it is very difficult to remove from the system.
I agree with you. In fact, I only have this issue, after so many years of RPG experience, because my homebrew settings never include these spells. Either that or the game just doesn't support it (Star Wars, Cyberpunk, etc.) or, at the very least, if you can get someone back to life, it is a VERY dangerous ordeal (Earthdawn, for example).
Well I found out one way to perma-kill someone: Die of old age. Could be danced around, but True Resurrection states it can't even bring back someone who has died of old age.
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Stabilize them on negative HP (not dead) or make them undead.
Turn them to stone.
Stick them in a bag of holding.
Stab the bag of holding.
PFSRD: If a bag of holding is overloaded, or if sharp objects pierce it (from inside or outside), the bag immediately ruptures and is ruined, and all contents are lost forever.
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Destroy the body. Without part of the body they would have to use a True Res and unless they know when and where the deceased was either born or died (highly unlikely in both cases unless a witness from the final encounter escaped) then even True Res doesn't work.
On the off chance that the PC's should ever get True Res when they need it, they've shared this info with each other. I imagine they're not the only people who would do this.
Couldn't you also raise them as mindless undead and then kill them again in an extreme measure?
Killing the undead thing you created is what you need to do to make Res or True Res work so you wouldn't want to destroy the undead thing.
Stabilize them on negative HP (not dead) or make them undead.
Turn them to stone.
Stick them in a bag of holding.
Stab the bag of holding.PFSRD: If a bag of holding is overloaded, or if sharp objects pierce it (from inside or outside), the bag immediately ruptures and is ruined, and all contents are lost forever.
Clever. Though I don't think it was intended to lose souls, but could work.
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Back in 3.5 era, there used to be a cabal of assassins that would apply a special paste to their victim's eyes when they killed them that prevents anything save epic-level (or miracle or wish spells) from resurrecting said person, and even then, caster level checks or the intercession of a deity were required.
That, or just hire some Red Mantis Assassins. Those guys have a spider-sense when someone they kill gets brought back, so they can go and kill him again...and again...and again...all for the price of one killing. Because when you hire professionals, results are guaranteed or your money back :)
If he comes back, Flesh to stone, polymorph the statue into a brick, build a patio.
Or better yet, kill him then raise him yourself. Kill him again. Repeat until he is 0 level.
That level of magic is rare in most GM's worlds and the material component is expensive. Most PC's have more loot than kings(the king's personal money). If it were that easy to raise people kings would be really hard to assassinate.
If your GM is treating NPC's organizations like they have unlimited wealth and spellcasting there is not much you can do. He will probably just use wish or miracle if he really wants to keep the NPC around.
If you are the GM, then the "returning NPC" gets old after a while. It is on of those things that should be very rare.
It isn't ANY org that would have the funds. This org might... but for a specific reason and its campaign-specific.
Funny enough, we've just had the "too rich for kings" thing come up in our game. Since we're running Kingmaker and the PC's wanted to pull funds from the treasury to resurrect the Warden (the assassin's victim), they argued that there shouldn't be Unrest since they're basically repairing the kingdom. I reminded them that there isn't anyone in the kingdom that can't make an argument that some free money spent their way isn't a kingdom improvement. And when you tell Merchant Bob that his family isn't important enough to resurrect with kingdom funds while you're pulling money from the treasury to resurrect each other, you can figure the people might not be thrilled.
Honestly, going as far back as I can remember, I can't recall one single NPC I've ever brought back by GM fiat'ing a resurrected bad guy.
*Putting the money thing aside if the GM wants to bring a character back there is always a way to do it within the story lines. Maybe that was his "twin brother", as his example.
I really would not worry about hypothetical issues.PS:At level nine I think calling a barghest is possible. If you agree to allow it to sit out the entire fight, and to consume the body after the party has done all the work you might even get a discount or a bonus to the cha check to get it to cooperate. This assumes resurrection is the highest spell that will be used though. *If the GM goes to True Ress then most likely nothing you can do will matter.
A really powerful organization that uses dopplegangers probably has access to clone spells as well.
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PFSRD: If a bag of holding is overloaded, or if sharp objects pierce it (from inside or outside), the bag immediately ruptures and is ruined, and all contents are lost forever.
Eureka!
Though... if this happened to someone the PC's cared to look for, I can't say I wouldn't give them the chance to find their buddy.
I figure the PC's should get the benefit of some favorable consideration from time to time. IMO, they're the main characters in my universe. We're telling their story. There has to be a reason they were chosen out of all the other possible choices, no? George Lucas didn't make a movie about Owen's Adventures In Moisture Farming, after all.
Destroy the body, then destroy all memory of the person.
Is that possible?
Healing Hand 20th level power does that to the monk using the ability...
My group only low level res spells to work like cpr. You have to get to the target and use it within a few rounds or it doesn't work. True Resurection requires much more than just wealth. Usually it's something along the lines of the party being mass gaes'ed to do the deities will or requires another person to willingly sacrafice themselves, some times the deity takes the sacrafice sometimes not.
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A really powerful organization that uses dopplegangers probably has access to clone spells as well.
Ixnay on the lone-cay...
The assassin's job was to plant misinformation and get the PC's kingdom (this is Kingmaker) involved in a war. It looks like she succeeded... but time will tell whether the PC's pick up on the ruse.
If the PC's get themselves involved in the war, then her mission was a success and they will create the clone. However, unless the story calls for it, she won't be used against the PC's again and they may only hear of her return from other sources.
Quieting Needles
Source Pathfinder #29
** spoiler omitted **...
That's Devious and wrong and unjustifiable. I like it. ;-)
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May be a bit past the fact, but two things come to mind (neither of them easy). First of all, the soul only returns to the body if it wills to, otherwise the spells fails. So if said doppelganger had offed himself, for example, the soul prolly wouldn't want to be raised again. Now, since they killed them rather than go through some kind of gaslighting/driving the doppelganger to suicide routine, this option seems out of the question.
Your other option is convincing those who would want him back that's he's not worth trying to raise again (such as by providing false evidence he offed himself, or pointing out to the other villains the doppelganger offered to turn traitor and work for the good guys, as he seems to have done in your case). Using a simulacrum or some such here may be useful in doing a fake out if they're careful about it, for example.
Barring playing head games with your enemies, a soul bind or some similar spell is probably your best bet. Securing the petrified body into an antimagic field or dead magic zone might be another option.
One could potentially argue the point that only creatures with souls can be raised, and that doppelgangers (being monstrous humanoids) do not have souls and thus cannot be raised.
Didn't that used to be a drawback to elves way back in the old days? They had "spirits" rather than "souls" and could not be raised from the dead? Maybe I'm making that up. I'm kinda old myself. *grin*
Well I found out one way to perma-kill someone: Die of old age. Could be danced around, but True Resurrection states it can't even bring back someone who has died of old age.
Reincarnate can bring back someone dead from old age.
Monstrous humanoids have souls. Outsiders have their bodies and souls as one unit, and they can not be raised by traditional magic.
Constructs and Undead do not have souls either.
I know there are various ways you can trap or destroy a soul. That's all cool but those options aren't really available at 9th level, either. So how do you deal with it?
Destroy the body as totally as you can and scatter the parts far and wide, in places no-one would ever look.
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Didn't that used to be a drawback to elves way back in the old days? They had "spirits" rather than "souls" and could not be raised from the dead? Maybe I'm making that up. I'm kinda old myself. *grin*
You didn't make it up. You're right. I think that distinction was removed after 2nd Edition, though. They could be reincarnated, though... which made pretty boy/girl elfie come back as something yucky and didn't usually make elf players very happy.
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First of all, the soul only returns to the body if it wills to, otherwise the spells fails. So if said doppelganger had offed himself, for example, the soul prolly wouldn't want to be raised again.
Yeah... she was executed after an interrogation where she basically pleaded for her life. There's no mistaking she wasn't thrilled about the prospect of dying...
Your other option is convincing those who would want him back that's he's not worth trying to raise again (such as by providing false evidence he offed himself, or pointing out to the other villains the doppelganger offered to turn traitor and work for the good guys, as he seems to have done in your case). Using a simulacrum or some such here may be useful in doing a fake out if they're careful about it, for example.
Ahh! That certainly sounds interesting. The PC's actually have the resources to pull this off IF they can figure out how to get their ruse back to the people involved.
Barring playing head games with your enemies, a soul bind or some similar spell is probably your best bet. Securing the petrified body into an antimagic field or dead magic zone might be another option.
In general, yes. In this specific case, I'm not too sure about the PC paladin, though. Futzing with souls is bordering on naughtiness. I don't bother the player about good/evil so much. I know him far too long to need to. He'll police himself plenty well-enough.
He's dead Jim...
That is all.
XP
Hmm, sounds like it could make for some interesting rping opportunities and adventure hooks for you if they start looking for a way. Infiltrating the group the doppelganger was working with somebody impersonating as her or somebody she knew might be an interesting adventure opportunity (love the irony in such a situation).
As for the assassin that was willing to work for them, was it willing to reform itself and give up being an assassin? If so, it's a pity they executed her. A quick slap of an Atonement spell or a Helm of Opposite Alignment (the latter may be iffy/moral gray area) might have gotten the assassin to have come over to their side. Their might have been other positions that they could have used a person of her skills for (like say a spymaster or maybe just counterintelligence as a double agent against whatever group she was working for).
I don't have my Inner Sea World Guide on me, but there is a guillotine artifact called the final blade (I believe) that kills people for good.
You can also overload someone with Negative Levels, I think there's something about having too many making someone un-raisable.
Make deals with the god of the deceased to keep him?
I know in Eberron there was a knife bound to The Keeper, the evil god of death and anyone slain with it had their soul given to the keeper and could not be brought back without going and confronting said evil god. Though that'd be some kind of Paladin deal breaker.
The Dead Collector: Bring out yer dead.
Large Man with Dead Body: Here's one.
The Dead Collector: That'll be ninepence.
The Dead Body That Claims It Isn't: I'm not dead.
The Dead Collector: What?
Large Man with Dead Body: Nothing. There's your ninepence.
The Dead Body That Claims It Isn't: I'm not dead.
The Dead Collector: 'Ere, he says he's not dead.
Large Man with Dead Body: Yes he is.
The Dead Body That Claims It Isn't: I'm not.
The Dead Collector: He isn't.
Large Man with Dead Body: Well, he will be soon, he's very ill.
The Dead Body That Claims It Isn't: I'm getting better.
Large Man with Dead Body: No you're not, you'll be stone dead in a moment.
The Dead Collector: Well, I can't take him like that. It's against regulations.
The Dead Body That Claims It Isn't: I don't want to go on the cart.
Large Man with Dead Body: Oh, don't be such a baby.
The Dead Collector: I can't take him.
The Dead Body That Claims It Isn't: I feel fine.
Large Man with Dead Body: Oh, do me a favor.
The Dead Collector: I can't.
Large Man with Dead Body: Well, can you hang around for a couple of minutes? He won't be long.
The Dead Collector: I promised I'd be at the Robinsons'. They've lost nine today.
Large Man with Dead Body: Well, when's your next round?
The Dead Collector: Thursday.
The Dead Body That Claims It Isn't: I think I'll go for a walk.
Large Man with Dead Body: You're not fooling anyone, you know. Isn't there anything you could do?
The Dead Body That Claims It Isn't: I feel happy. I feel happy.
Large Man with Dead Body: Ah, thank you very much.
The Dead Collector: Not at all. See you on Thursday.
Large Man with Dead Body: Right.