Hello, sorry for my terrible english, but i'm an outlander.
Yesterdey, during the last session, we find ourselves in trouble with the witch of our group.
She has a Parrot (instead of the Raven) and usually use it to cast spells from a wand with a UMD check.
The problem is with the pharese from the APG that states;
"Starting at 1st level, a witch’s familiar stores all of the spells that the witch knows.
This does not allow the familiar to cast these spells or use spell-trigger or spell completion magic items."
The bolded phrase means only that the Raven must do the UMD check also if it knows the spells or that it can't use any magical device?
Thank in advance.
Yes the familiar has to make a UMD check in order to activate a wand.
Now as to whether a raven can use a wand or not, well that's a debated issue.
Ok, thank you very much.
The familiar needs to be able to manipulate tools/objects and have speech, as well as make the UMD check. Most Improved Familiars are able to.
Before then, you can cast Anthropomorphic Animal on your regular familiar (due to Share Spells, it doesn't matter that AA only works on animals and your familiar is a magical beast) to give it arms/hands and speech.
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The familiar needs to be able to manipulate tools/objects and have speech, as well as make the UMD check. Most Improved Familiars are able to.
Before then, you can cast Anthropomorphic Animal on your regular familiar (due to Share Spells, it doesn't matter that AA only works on animals and your familiar is a magical beast) to give it arms/hands and speech.
Incorrect, the share spells ability only allows the master to cast spells of target YOU on his familiar with the share spells ability.
This spell is target animal touched so cannot be used on the familiar.
The familiar needs to be able to manipulate tools/objects and have speech, as well as make the UMD check. Most Improved Familiars are able to.
I agree with you. Questioning about the ability for a raven to handle a wand is kinda esotheric. The GM otherwise agreed to it (until lvl 7 where an improved familiar can fix the issue).
We just have to wait enjoying the funny J.K. Rowling's Raven.
Incorrect, the share spells ability only allows the master to cast spells of target YOU on his familiar with the share spells ability.
This spell is target animal touched so cannot be used on the familiar.
Unless I'm missing something, it could be used on any familiar that is also an animal, and whom you touch. Rules out king crab, centipede, and spider, most of the rest it works on.
The familiar needs to be able to manipulate tools/objects and have speech, as well as make the UMD check. Most Improved Familiars are able to.
Before then, you can cast Anthropomorphic Animal on your regular familiar (due to Share Spells, it doesn't matter that AA only works on animals and your familiar is a magical beast) to give it arms/hands and speech.
Incorrect, the share spells ability only allows the master to cast spells of target YOU on his familiar with the share spells ability.
This spell is target animal touched so cannot be used on the familiar.
Ok, I'm going to try and make this as clear as possible for you.
"Share Spells
The witch may cast a spell with a target of “You” on her familiar (as a touch spell) instead of on herself. A WITCH MAY CAST SPELLS ON HER FAMILIAR EVEN IF THE SPELLS DO NOT NORMALLY AFFECT CREATURES OF THE FAMILIAR'S TYPE (MAGICAL BEAST)."
Did you catch the emphasized part? It's well hidden, I know.
So, let's look at the spell:
"Anthropomorphic Animal
School transmutation (polymorph); Level druid 3, sorcerer/ wizard 3, witch 3
CASTINGCasting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M (a humanoid thumb bone)
EFFECTRange touch
Target animal touched
Duration 1 hour/level
Saving Throw Fortitude negates; Spell Resistance yes
You transform the touched animal into a bipedal hybrid of its original form with a humanoid form, similar to how a lycanthrope's hybrid form is a mix of a humanoid and animal form. The animal's size, type, and ability scores do not change. It loses its natural attacks except for bite (if it had one as an animal), all types of movement other than its land speed, and special attacks that rely on its natural attacks. One pair of its limbs is able to manipulate objects and weapons as well as human hands do; limbless animals like snakes temporarily grow a pair of arms. The creature's Intelligence increases to 3, and it gains the ability to speak one language you know. It is not considered proficient in any manufactured weapons. It can attack with unarmed strikes, dealing unarmed strike damage for a creature of its size (unless it has a bite attack, which is a natural attack).
Anthropomorphic animal can be made permanent with a permanency spell cast by a caster of 11th level or higher at a cost of 7,500 gp."
So...it normally only works on animals. Your familiar is a magical beast. This would be problematic, except thanks to share spells, the witch doesn't care.
Unless I'm missing something, it could be used on any familiar that is also an animal, and whom you touch. Rules out king crab, centipede, and spider, most of the rest it works on.
Actually, you are missing something.
While your assumption that it wold work on any familiar that is also an animal is correct, problem is that there are no familiars that are also an animal.A familiar is an animal chosen by a spellcaster to aid him in his study of magic. It retains the appearance, Hit Dice, base attack bonus, base save bonuses, skills, and feats of the normal animal it once was, but is now a magical beast for the purpose of effects that depend on its type.
I'd say that the applicability of certain spells is an 'effect that depends on its type.
.
.
"Share Spells
The witch may cast a spell with a target of “You” on her familiar (as a touch spell) instead of on herself. A Witch may cast spells on her familiar even if the spells do not normally affect creatures of the familiar's type (Magical Beast)."So, let's look at the spell again:
"Anthropomorphic Animal
School transmutation (polymorph); Level druid 3, sorcerer/ wizard 3, witch 3
CASTING
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M (a humanoid thumb bone)EFFECT
Range touch
Target animal touched
Duration 1 hour/level
Saving Throw Fortitude negates; Spell Resistance yesYou transform the touched animal into a bipedal hybrid of its original form with a humanoid form, similar to how a lycanthrope's hybrid form is a mix of a humanoid and animal form. The animal's size, type, and ability scores do not change. It loses its natural attacks except for bite (if it had one as an animal), all types of movement other than its land speed, and special attacks that rely on its natural attacks. One pair of its limbs is able to manipulate objects and weapons as well as human hands do; limbless animals like snakes temporarily grow a pair of arms...
I took the liberty to emphasize some other parts of the very entry you quoted.
Last time I checked 'animal touched' was something that affected slightly different targets than 'you'. The witch cannot use the Share Spells feature to affect her familiar with a spell that she couldn't use on herself. Which, in this case, she can't (barring unless she has the animal type herself, which I doubt).
While I'd allow it for its pure flavor, the RAW don't agree with your proposal.
The familiar needs to be able to manipulate tools/objects and have speech, as well as make the UMD check. Most Improved Familiars are able to.
Where does it say that you need to speak to activate a wand? I'm not seeing it in the rules for activating a wand.
To activate a wand, a character must hold it in hand (or whatever passes for a hand, for non-humanoid creatures) and point it in the general direction of the target or area. A wand may be used while grappling or while swallowed whole.
Share Spells
The witch may cast a spell with a target of “You” on her familiar (as a touch spell) instead of on herself. A Witch may cast spells on her familiar even if the spells do not normally affect creatures of the familiar's type (Magical Beast)."
This ability allows you to cast spells with a target of you on your familiar. It also allows you to cast spells on the familiar that would not otherwise affect it.
All of the "share spells" do this.
From what I can tell, it must be two separate statements. Spells that have a target of "You" don't have a limitation of creature type. In the listing of spells, the place where it determines what sort of creature can be effected is the target line. For example, Charm Person (Target: one humanoid creature) vs. Alter Self (Target: You).
This is a bad example of what you may want to cast on your companion, but it shows how the first sentence and the second sentence cannot be talking about the same thing. A spell with the Target of "You" does not also have a target of "humanoid creature".
This ability allows you to cast spells with a target of you on your familiar. It also allows you to cast spells on the familiar that would not otherwise affect it.
All of the "share spells" do this.
Still, even if dissecting the two sentences into completely independent statements, sharing would imply that the caster has to be a valid target for the spell, don't you think?
Your train of logic makes it perfectly viable for a wizard (who has the Share Spells feature as well) to target his familiar with spells like rapid repair or unbreakable construct (after applying stoneskin, of course)... after all, if the Share feature allows you to cast spells on your familiar regardless of type, there's no reason not to use construct-targeting magic on it. Heck, by your reading, even sculpt corpse would be legit.
I can't believe people don't even understand how sentence structure and logical statements work...
Here's a FAQ quote about the Summoner's Share Spells ability, in relation to the synthesist: http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fz#v5748eaic9obd
SKR certainly seems to think the two sentences are different statements. Like...sentences tend to be. Note, they originally had Enlarge Person spell as an example in the answer. Was it removed because it's not a personal range spell? Nope, it was removed due to uncertainty of how its effects interact w/ eidolon's size limitations compared to the synthesist summoner.
No. The point of share spells is to give the familiar/eidolon/animal companion help.
This is not 3.5's share spells where whatever spell that is cast on caster affects both automatically.
"Sculpt corpse" would not work because a corpse is not a creature type while the "share spell" ability specially says it allows for spells that don't normally affect that creature type. It does not say it allows for just any spell to affect the familiar(eidolon, Animal companion).
edited:clarity
No. The point of share spells is to give the familiar/eidolon/animal companion help.
So, rather than trying to guess your answers from not replying to a part of my text:
Would you call rapid repair or unbreakable construct legit spells for casting on your familiar? If not, why not?
No. The point of share spells is to give the familiar/eidolon/animal companion help.So, rather than trying to guess your answers from not replying to a part of my text:
Would you call rapid repair or unbreakable construct legit spells for casting on your familiar? If not, why not?
Share spells says "spells that don't normally affect that creature type."
That means spells that would not normally work due to creature type still work. It does not mean any spell will work.
As an example enlarge person would work since the normal creature type targeted is a humanoid.
Rapid Repair also works.
Sculpt corpse actually works on any dead creature so that would work also if the creature was dead.
As an example enlarge person would work since the normal creature type targeted is a humanoid.
Rapid Repair also works.
Sculpt corpse actually works on any dead creature so that would work also if the creature was dead.
*laughs* No need to repeat the last one, I heard you that time already.
Hmm... *shrugs* might be a (silent, since everyone just assumed it) houserule at our table that, for a spell to be eligible for 'sharing', the caster himself must be a theoretically valid target.Which, by the way, makes things like enlarge person perfectly legit either way (as it was supposed to).
The rules never say the caster has to be eligible. :)
The rejuvenate spell for "Rejuvenate Eidolon, Lesser" spell also works.
Where does it say that you need to speak to activate a wand? I'm not seeing it in the rules for activating a wand.
I think is in here:
"Command Word: If no activation method is suggested either in the magic item description or by the nature of the item, assume that a command word is needed to activate it . Command word activation means that a character speaks the word and the item activates. No other special knowledge is needed."
Where does it say that you need to speak to activate a wand? I'm not seeing it in the rules for activating a wand.I think is in here:
"Command Word: If no activation method is suggested either in the magic item description or by the nature of the item, assume that a command word is needed to activate it . Command word activation means that a character speaks the word and the item activates. No other special knowledge is needed."
Wands require the additional special knowledge of having the spell on your spell list, so I don't think that this applies. Wands also include the specific activation method of basically "point and click". I might be missing something since everyone seems very sure that you have to talk to activate a wand.
Which, by the way, makes things like enlarge person perfectly legit either way (as it was supposed to).
Actually, it means that a tiefling (or any native outsider) would be unable to cast enlarge person on their familiar, even though a human could. So a monkey that belongs to a human is a valid target, but one that belongs to a tiefling isn't. I can see a potential justification for it, but I don't think that makes much sense.
Actually, it means that a tiefling (or any native outsider) would be unable to cast enlarge person on their familiar, even though a human could. So a monkey that belongs to a human is a valid target, but one that belongs to a tiefling isn't. I can see a potential justification for it, but I don't think that makes much sense.
Actually, I'm all in the 'Tieflings, Aasimars, and the like should be considered planetouched humanoids, rather than native outsiders' camp... but this is another story altogether.
Where does it say that you need to speak to activate a wand?
"Wands use the spell trigger activation method."
"Spell trigger activation is similar to spell completion, but it's even simpler. No gestures or spell finishing is needed, just a special knowledge of spellcasting that an appropriate character would know, and a single word that must be spoken."
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Where does it say that you need to speak to activate a wand?"Wands use the spell trigger activation method."
"Spell trigger activation is similar to spell completion, but it's even simpler. No gestures or spell finishing is needed, just a special knowledge of spellcasting that an appropriate character would know, and a single word that must be spoken."
so therefore a raven familiar can activate a wand? as according to the core book:
*A raven familiar can speak one language of its master’s choice
as a supernatural ability.
Wands don't require somatic components, however...
"To activate a wand, a character must hold it in hand (or whatever passes for a hand, for nonhumanoid creatures) and point it in the general direction of the target or area. A wand may be used while grappling or while swallowed whole."
Some DMs may let your super smart raven get that wand in its talons, point it at the target, and use the wand. Others may not.
now that's out of the way, we can all get back to "installing" demonic implants on our familiars, giving it the hands to use a wand