Just to add to the discussion: a fighter cannot ready to attack the monk >before< the monk hits him if he doesn't perceive him first. Meaning a high stealth monk can always get the first hit in - though readied actions of the fighter can target the monk for >after< being hit.
The sample builds of fighters have 20 skill ranks in perception. Whereas the sample build monk dumps int hardcore. It be tough to max out stealth on the proposed monk builds.
Also unless there is cover all the way up to the square next to the fighter chances are all a monk can do even with stealth is to get off a range attack. Remember current RAW stealth breaks as soon as you leave cover.
A 20th level Dwarf Monk with a 7 int has 60 skill points. He can max out perception acrobatics and stealth.
a 20th level Dwarf Monk also has a move of 60 and one less feat.
The fighter doesn't have to reconfigure midcombat. He can Quickdraw his bow and unleash a full attack without moving a step. Heck, he's got enough feats to get Precise Aim, Deadly Aim, and Weapon Spec the bow on top of all that. If he happens to crit, the monk's going to die.
The monk has to try very, very hard not to play the fighter's game...cover is extremely important to the monk being able to survive more then one round. Trying to hold the fighter to single attack exchanges is IMPOSSIBLE without DM fiat giving the monk some sort of cover to hide behind.
IF the fighter gets off a full Melee attack, the monk is just dead in one round.
==Aelryinth
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Just to add to the discussion: a fighter cannot ready to attack the monk >before< the monk hits him if he doesn't perceive him first. Meaning a high stealth monk can always get the first hit in - though readied actions of the fighter can target the monk for >after< being hit.
Why can't he ready an action to hit whatever should attack him? I don't read this anywhere in the CRB.
Smoke bombs. Stealth. Sorted.
Perception. Smoke bombs just let the fighter know that the monk is coming. If the monk gets concealment in the smoke, so does the fighter.
And that's cool, but what ability is giving the fighter the power to reconfigure himself in the middle of the fight? Or look at the fighters presented above and tell me what you're taking away to get those extra feats. It's great to say what a fighter can do in theory but when you actually have to build it you'll see that unless the fighter can change feats mid combat there is a hole the monk can exploit. With the monk we're not talking about reconfiguring feats to adapt to the fighter we're just changing tactics.
Speaking of which I'm not talking about the monk running I'm talking about letting the fighter move to the monk.
Good point. I would take a switch-hitter to the fight, myself. Something like this...
Switch-Hit Fighter CR 19
Male Human Fighter 20
NN Medium Humanoid (Human)
Init +5; Senses Perception +20
--------------------
DEFENSE
--------------------
AC 21, touch 12, flat-footed 19. . (+9 armor, +1 Dex, +1 dodge)
hp 204 (20d10+60)
Fort +17, Ref +7, Will +6
Defensive Abilities Bravery +5; DR 5/—
--------------------
OFFENSE
--------------------
Spd 30 ft.
Melee Heavy Shield Bash +18/+13/+8/+3 (1d6+18/20/x2) and
. . Adamantine Falchion +25/+20/+15/+10 (2d4+35/15-20/x2) and
. . Axe, Throwing +18/+18/+13/+8/+3 (1d6+30/20/x2) and
. . Gauntlet (from Armor) +18/+13/+8/+3 (1d3+18/20/x2) and
. . Masterwork Cold Iron Warhammer +19/+14/+9/+4 (1d8+18/20/x3) and
. . Masterwork Halberd +21/+16/+11/+6 (1d10+29/20/x3) and
. . Mithral Scimitar +23/+18/+13/+8 (1d6+22/18-20/x2) and
. . Unarmed Strike +18/+13/+8/+3 (1d3+18/20/x2)
Ranged Darkwood Longbow, Composite (Str +6) +18/+18/+13/+8/+3 (1d8+23/20/x3)
Special Attacks Weapon Training: Blades, Heavy, Weapon Training: Blades, Light, Weapon Training: Bows, Weapon Training: Pole Arms
--------------------
STATISTICS
--------------------
Str 22, Dex 13, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 8
Base Atk +20; CMB +26; CMD 38
Feats Blind-Fight, Deadly Aim -6/+12, Dodge, Great Fortitude, Greater Vital Strike, Greater Weapon Focus: Falchion, Greater Weapon Specialization: Falchion, Improved Critical: Falchion, Improved Great Fortitude (1/day), Improved Initiative, Improved Vital Strike, Lunge, Penetrating Strike, Point Blank Shot, Power Attack -6/+12, Quick Draw, Rapid Shot, Vital Strike, Weapon Focus: Falchion, Weapon Focus: Longbow, Weapon Specialization: Falchion, Weapon Specialization: Longbow
Skills Acrobatics +15, Climb +12, Handle Animal +3, Intimidate +3, Knowledge (Dungeoneering) +4, Knowledge (Engineering) +4, Perception +20, Ride +5, Stealth +16, Survival +5, Swim +10
Languages Common
SQ Armor Mastery (Ex), Armor Training 4 (Ex), Weapon Mastery: -Choose- (Ex)
Combat Gear Adamantine Falchion, Arrows (50), Axe, Throwing, Darkwood Longbow, Composite (Str +6), Masterwork Cold Iron Warhammer, Masterwork Halberd, Mithral Full Plate, Mithral Scimitar, Shield Spikes Mithral Shield, Heavy Steel; Other Gear Caltrops (20)
--------------------
SPECIAL ABILITIES
--------------------
Armor Mastery (Ex) DR 5/- while wearing armor
Armor Training 4 (Ex) Worn armor -4 check penalty, +4 max DEX.
Blind-Fight Re-roll misses because of concealment, other benefits.
Bravery +5 (Ex) +5 Will save vs. Fear
Damage Reduction (5/-) You have Damage Reduction against all attacks.
Deadly Aim -6/+12 Trade a penalty to ranged attacks for a bonus to ranged damage.
Improved Great Fortitude (1/day) 1/day, re-roll a Fort save.
Lunge -2 to AC for +5' reach
Penetrating Strike Ignore up to 5 points of DR/?.
Point Blank Shot +1 to attack and damage rolls with ranged weapons at up to 30 feet.
Power Attack -6/+12 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Quick Draw Draw a weapon as a free action. Throw at full rate of attacks.
Rapid Shot You get an extra attack with ranged weapons. Each attack is at -2.
Vital Strike Standard action: x2 weapon damage dice.
Weapon Mastery: -Falchion- (Ex) Chosen weapon has an improved critical multiplier, always confirms criticals, and cannot be disarmed.
Weapon Training: Blades, Heavy +4 (Ex) +4 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Heavy Blades
Weapon Training: Blades, Light +1 (Ex) +1 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Light Blades
Weapon Training: Bows +3 (Ex) +3 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Bows
Weapon Training: Pole Arms +2 (Ex) +2 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Pole Arms
This guy has all the feats I've quoted as using, and a few on the side. Strength is a little lower than I expected, but he's got two lots Weapon Specialisation.
Late to this, but my 2 cents:
On the average, 20th level fighter will have more damage output as a whole--he will hit most often and deal extra damage with weapon training.
But I'd note that the rogue has a circumstantial advantage -- if we assume the rogue is high Dexterity (probably higher than fighter's Dexterity), then he has a better on-average chance of winning initiative, and thus dealing 10d6 sneak attack damage while the fighter is still flat-footed, in addition to whatever other weapon damage he can deal. Which is a fair amount of damage. Further if the rogue has a feint build, your average big dumb fighter has a decent chance of being feinted and thus subject to further sneak attack damage (but OTOH fighter has a better chance of surviving that massive damage and retaliating, etc.).
Monk, while having many cool tricks at level 20 that would make him a viable contributor to combat, DPR winning he could not do (a TWF fighter vs a flurrying monk at 20th level will hit more often and deal more damage due to weapon training).
Are the monk and rogue dead yet?
Just to add to the discussion: a fighter cannot ready to attack the monk >before< the monk hits him if he doesn't perceive him first. Meaning a high stealth monk can always get the first hit in - though readied actions of the fighter can target the monk for >after< being hit.Why can't he ready an action to hit whatever should attack him? I don't read this anywhere in the CRB.
For the same reason that you cannot "I ready to hit the invisible guy as soon as he steps in my threatened area". Doesn't work. He can hit the invisible guy >after< he got attacked, but not before. Same for stealth.
With that build, at range, your fighter is going to do about 17 points of damage a round. The Monk has DR 10 that you can't bypass, and he's going to deflect your first +18 attack. Your second +18 will only hit 50% (28AC) your +13 needs a 15 to hit, so figure if your +18 misses your +13 hits (and that's being generous).
The monk has around 165 HP I think, so that gives him about 10 shots on you. Your AC is only 21, which means the monk auto-hits (only fails on a 1), and the fighter will have to make 10 Fort saves at 11 or better (one of them getting 2 chances) to avoid Stun/Death. That build doesn't stand a chance, because all of that is without spending a single Ki.
The only build I've seen so far that REALLY scares me as a Monk is the 36 AC Kukri build. Monk will be about +19 to hit with his stunning fist (assuming he's not dumb enough to full attack with Flurry of Blows and end the turn next to the fighter). At that AC, the monk needs a 17 or better to hit. A miss still uses up the Stunning Fist.
For the person who asked about cover, if you read the post where the rules are provided, there will be things to hide behind.
a 20th level Dwarf Monk also has a move of 60 and one less feat.
A 20th level Dwarf Monk has speed 80, not 60.
Yes, he does. Monk Movement is 90', +20' for using ki. That's 110', when the monk needs to move at least 120' to start out of charge range of the fighter and end out of charge range of the fighter.Actually a monk only has to move 35' and have cover to stop a charge. That's a total of 70' of movement, well under 90.
My question is, why does everyone assume that the monk has to be the one to attack? Maybe the monk will just stand 65' away and wait on the fighter to close. That way they can both stand there with readied actions and we just call it a draw.
This assumes the monk is alive to force 10 fort saves. It also assumes there is cover. The GM is question seems to think the monk can win straight up, and will probably have an arena type battle. Even with spring attack the fighter eventually closes, and mathmatically should get a crit. The monk is very unlikely to make the save and even if he does he is still in lockdown mode to some extent. If he fails the save you can call it a night.
Still where will you be getting enough cover to sneak up to the fighter?
This isn't really my argument, I'm just saying he could max out stealth, I'm with you and doubt that will be a viable action.
[wraithstrike]This assumes the monk is alive to force 10 fort saves. It also assumes there is cover. The GM is question seems to think the monk can win straight up, and will probably have an arena type battle.
As I've said repeatedly, the rules have already be clarified and there will be things to hide behind. Go back a few pages and you'll see it.
Even with spring attack the fighter eventually closes, and mathmatically should get a crit. The monk is very unlikely to make the save and even if he does he is still in lockdown mode to some extent. If he fails the save you can call it a night.
Why would we assume the fighter will eventually close? The monk has SO many more options and is SO much more mobile than the fighter. Heck, the monk can jump over the fighter and still be far enough away to make the fighter double move. If a monk jumps behind cover, no charge, the fighter either stands there, so no one takes damage, or closes and hopes he makes his Fort Save and the monk's player suddenly gets brain damage and doesn't move out of the way again.
Your second +18 will only hit 50% (28AC)How the monk have 28 in his AC?
10 + 8 + 4 + 1 + 5 WIS + DEX + Dodge + 5 for being a monk. I took Stream's monk, lowered CON (14)and a little WIS (still +8 but even instead of odd) raised DEX to 18.
The sample monk given had AC 24 from Wis and Dex and level bonus, +Dodge.
Blow a ki point for +4 AC for one round = 28. Potentially fight defensively and get +3 AC to make it to 31.
I'm still thinking 3,5 on monk movement, where the ratios on high move stayed constant. A move 40' monk ended up at 120' at level 20...
But yeah, that build is way low on AC. The builds presented also double up on Penetration to totally nix the monk's DR, too.
==
The Rogue player will likely have at best +1 or +2 Dex over a fighter, and none at all if it's a dex build. Remember, armor training gives a strong incentive for the fighter to end up at 20 Dex, and the fighter's crit DC's are not Strength Dependent, like the attacks of a monk are. Mithral Fullplate maxes out at a 24 Dex, and a finesse build works much better in this situation then a Str build.
==Aelryinth
Still where will you be getting enough cover to sneak up to the fighter?This isn't really my argument, I'm just saying he could max out stealth, I'm with you and doubt that will be a viable action.
This assumes the monk is alive to force 10 fort saves. It also assumes there is cover. The GM is question seems to think the monk can win straight up, and will probably have an arena type battle.As I've said repeatedly, the rules have already be clarified and there will be things to hide behind. Go back a few pages and you'll see it.
Even with spring attack the fighter eventually closes, and mathmatically should get a crit. The monk is very unlikely to make the save and even if he does he is still in lockdown mode to some extent. If he fails the save you can call it a night.Why would we assume the fighter will eventually close? The monk has SO many more options and is SO much more mobile than the fighter. Heck, the monk can jump over the fighter and still be far enough away to make the fighter double move. If a monk jumps behind cover, no charge, the fighter either stands there, so no one takes damage, or closes and hopes he makes his Fort Save and the monk's player suddenly gets brain damage and doesn't move out of the way again.
Double moving range is charging change.
Well since the GM realized the error of his way I guess the point is moot. :)
An howis he getting 26 in his wis?
Look at Stream's build. The monk's age can be Venerable, since they don't take age penalties.
EDIT: The monk just needs cover against that build. Even with a full attack, you'll only hit with 1 maybe 2 arrows, doing 24-50 damage with deadly aim. Monk can take that 3 times.
Without deadly aim you'll hit 2-3 for 24ish damage (although I'm not sure how you're doing +20 damage without deadly aim). Monk can take that 6 times.
So even if a monk stands there and lets you full ranged attack, You'll fail your fort 50% of the times, odds are still in the Monk's favor, and I still haven't used Ki.
EDIT2: Speaking of held actions, how's this one: Monk moves up to 55' away, whispers to the GM "If I charges I go ethereal", fighter charges, cause let's face it, the Falchion will end the fight a lot quicker. Monk is missed (no ghost touch) Stunning blow (only needs a 4 to hit), and the monk now has 90' (or 80' if dwarf) to move away.
Wow I really like this thread. When the question was first posed, I thought the Monk had a slim chance to win. Now that I see the actual builds instead of the theory builds, there's only one way the fighter makes it out alive, and that's the high AC.
Here's something else I just thought of. Stream's build is a pretty standard monk. It isn't specialized for this fight. The only difference is may INT and CHA wouldn't be quite so low, but other than that it's what you'd see anywhere. The fighter had to be made specifically for this fight, and would be pretty useless in a campaign (6 WILL save?).
So the monk goes ethereal, and then what? He can't touch the fighter now, because:
An ethereal creature can't attack material creatures, and spells you cast while ethereal affect only other ethereal things.
Stop being ethereal? While it's a move action to activate Empty Body, there's no defined action to dismiss it. The class ability says it acts as etherealness, which is a dismissable spell. It's a standard action to dismiss the spell, which means the monk can't attack until the following round.
Venerable is not standard. Most GM's don't let you choose age categories.
You also can not use stunning blow when you are ethereal.
If the monk moves at distance that is within charging range, but does not do anything else it is obvious that something is up. The fight would most likely just pepper him with arrows until he did something different.
I still don't see how the monk is winning this fight unless there is a lot of cover, which of course kills the GM's original premise anyway of making of fun of the fighter's damage.
I think the issue here is that those arguing for the monk are trying to avoid winning by damage, which was the GM's original proposition. Those advocating for the fighter are still looking at damage.
Now if the GM had said who can win in a PvP match without trying to insult the fighter's DPR the obvious answer is that whoever is played by the better player is more likely to win.
For the same reason that you cannot "I ready to hit the invisible guy as soon as he steps in my threatened area". Doesn't work. He can hit the invisible guy >after< he got attacked, but not before. Same for stealth.Just to add to the discussion: a fighter cannot ready to attack the monk >before< the monk hits him if he doesn't perceive him first. Meaning a high stealth monk can always get the first hit in - though readied actions of the fighter can target the monk for >after< being hit.Why can't he ready an action to hit whatever should attack him? I don't read this anywhere in the CRB.
I'm sorry, but not being seen until you are sixty feet away and being completely invisible right next to somebody are two very different things, especially if the person knows you are there somewhere. You can ready an action to 'hit the invisible guy when he appears' after all.
With that build, at range, your fighter is going to do about 17 points of damage a round. The Monk has DR 10 that you can't bypass,
Clearly you missed Penetrating Strike that takes 5 off.
and he's going to deflect your first +18 attack. Your second +18 will only hit 50% (28AC) your +13 needs a 15 to hit, so figure if your +18 misses your +13 hits (and that's being generous).
Well I made this build in response to Ciretose's build, and his had AC20 (AC24 with ki) and was going to win by using Shot-on-the-Run and a light crossbow. AC28 (by burning ki) results in: 50%+50%+25%+5%+5%=135% so yes, if the monk isn't playing the shooting game (and hence has one hand free) that's 27.5 -5 x 0.35 = 7.875 DPR.
Without Deadly Aim it's 80%+80%+55%+35%+5%-100% = 1.55 hits for 34.875 DPR which is what this fighter would use at range against the higher AC monk.
The monk has around 165 HP I think, so that gives him about 10 shots on you. Your AC is only 21, which means the monk auto-hits (only fails on a 1), and the fighter will have to make 10 Fort saves at 11 or better (one of them getting 2 chances) to avoid Stun/Death. That build doesn't stand a chance, because all of that is without spending a single Ki.
So you're invoking Schroedinger's monk now with high Con as well as high Dex and Wis? OK, well your 28AC monk is getting hammered for a Greater Vital Strike with the falchion each time he makes his unarmed attack which is 50 damage after his DR at 85% to hit, with 30% chance of a crit for 130 damage after DR, for a DPR of 66.5. Now your monk can run away and use his ki to heal, but that's going to wipe out his ki real fast, then he's just another target.
Of course this fighter could also just whip out the halberd and use it to trip the monk before he gets in range to hit. Hard to use that quivering palm when you are stuck five feet away - ten feet with lunge. CMB of 26 should be enough to give the monk pause, and it's an AoO when the monk tries to stand up.
The whole issue of cover is contentious - use the monk can use it to launch spring attacks, bot how does he do this if the fighter is also using cover? How does he know where the fighter is in order to spring attack him? It's then a matter of who sees who first. With ten foot reach and better range the fighter is still odds-on favourite.
Actually no - because the monk has to fight way trickier and has to be way more prepared than the fighter in order to have chances to win.
I'm sorry, but not being seen until you are sixty feet away and being completely invisible right next to somebody are two very different things, especially if the person knows you are there somewhere. You can ready an action to 'hit the invisible guy when he appears' after all.
Not based on the Paizo fixes to Stealth. The monk can leave cover and stay in stealth until after his first attack against the fighter (provided the fighter doesn't manage to perceive him).
You're right about the standard action to dismiss, forgot about that, so that won't work.
As far as venerable, okay but if you're going to take random monk abilities away, I get to take random fighter abilities away, like say Armor Training. Or in other words: No freakin' away are you taking that. The fighter is more than welcome to be venerable too.
Clearly you missed Penetrating Strike that takes 5 off.
I did miss that, but that still doesn't change anything. You're fighter fails his fort on an 11 or less. Three hits is all the monk needs and it's almost a sure K. O.
Well I made this build in response to Ciretose's build, and his had AC20 (AC24 with ki) and was going to win by using Shot-on-the-Run and a light crossbow. AC28 (by burning ki) results in: 50%+50%+25%+5%+5%=135% so yes, if the monk isn't playing the shooting game (and hence has one hand free) that's 27.5 -5 x 0.35 = 7.875 DPR.
Without Deadly Aim it's 80%+80%+55%+35%+5%-100% = 1.55 hits for 34.875 DPR which is what this fighter would use at range against the higher AC monk.
I'm using StreamoftheSky's build, on this thread only dropping CON to 14 WIS down 1 and raising DEX to 18, and that's a 28 AC without spending Ki 32 if I use it, and again I can take 35 points of damage for over 3 rounds, that's all I need to make the fighter fail a save that he only has a 45% chance of making when he gets 1 reroll.
The whole issue of cover is contentious - use the monk can use it to launch spring attacks, bot how does he do this if the fighter is also using cover? How does he know where the fighter is in order to spring attack him? It's then a matter of who sees who first. With ten foot reach and better range the fighter is still odds-on favourite.
Not really. A monk doesn't need full cover, all he really needs is rough terrain to stop the fighter from charging. I believe caltrops will do that, and since the monk can leap further than the fighter can single move, they'd be pretty effective. Monk can watch the fighter the whole time. The other problem with this, is that the monk can look for the fighter while ethereal.
Ranged attacks means the monk really doesn't have to fear your critical's. If your ranged can't take him out in 3 rounds, you're going to fail one of those saves, and it's game over.
Sorry, can't use age in your favor in a contest of classes. That severely screws bias towards one class or another.
Invalid build. Keep the rules the same.
Alternatively, rule that he only got the benefits of ignoring age penalties after reaching venerable, so he has to retain the age penalties he already attained. Start sucking that -6 to Str, Con and Dex, please, for your 'free' +3 to mental stats.
Nice try, however. Now, build somethign reasonable?
==Aelryinth
Jumping isn't a defense. The Fighter can jump 30+ feet, too, if he bothers to invest in it. You aren't going to fill a 30' circle around yourself with caltrops, and all the fighter has to do is jump at you as part of his charge. Otherwise, all he has to do is retreat to 90' away, force you out of your circle...you aren't going to end your own movement in a circle of caltrops, and in the meantime he can full attack you.
+60 to your speed is only +24 to your jump check. You aren't going to be jumping 60' without some hefty mods.
Also, note that Greater Penetrating is +5 Dmg against this monk, and weapon spec is only +2. Definitely take the former before the latter.
And am I wrong, but I thought there was an alchemical application that gave a weapon short term Ghost Touch for our ethereal monk friend?
===Aelryinth
Getting to choose the age of your character is NOT a class feature. Your argument is invalid. Keep it straight and civil. My reply to your setting the age to venerable will be: Okay, in 40 years when we're both venerable and I'm level 30, we'll duel.
===Aelryinth
I'm sorry, but not being seen until you are sixty feet away and being completely invisible right next to somebody are two very different things, especially if the person knows you are there somewhere. You can ready an action to 'hit the invisible guy when he appears' after all.Not based on the Paizo fixes to Stealth. The monk can leave cover and stay in stealth until after his first attack against the fighter (provided the fighter doesn't manage to perceive him).
I think the latter part is going to be really hard when the fighter can have a +20 perception check and the monk is running full tilt at 90' per round.
You're right about the standard action to dismiss, forgot about that, so that won't work.
As far as venerable, okay but if you're going to take random monk abilities away, I get to take random fighter abilities away, like say Armor Training. Or in other words: No freakin' away are you taking that. The fighter is more than welcome to be venerable too.
Ah, you were relying on age bonuses.
Well nobody said you couldn't but then these are fresh characters so I think everyone assumed starting ages (at least on this side of the fence).
Oh, and difficult terrain, where did that come from?
What you are basically saying is that the monk wins if he gets to choose when (age) and where (terrain features) the encounter takes place. Well, that's basically admitting that the monk cannot win unless he gets to choose this, and I don't think that's a very good argument to use.
Getting to choose the age of your character is NOT a class feature. Your argument is invalid. Keep it straight and civil. My reply to your setting the age to venerable will be: Okay, in 40 years when we're both venerable and I'm level 30, we'll duel.
===Aelryinth
Nah, I'll design an elf fighter and we'll just demand that whatever age they choose, we add 200 years to both sides.
Sorry, can't use age in your favor in a contest of classes. That severely screws bias towards one class or another.
Invalid build. Keep the rules the same.
Alternatively, rule that he only got the benefits of ignoring age penalties after reaching venerable, so he has to retain the age penalties he already attained. Start sucking that -6 to Str, Con and Dex, please, for your 'free' +3 to mental stats.
Nice try, however. Now, build somethign reasonable?
==Aelryinth
The rules are the same. There are rules for being different ages, right in core, along with the benefits and penalties.
One of the monks high level class features is to take all the good of old age w/ none of the bad. If you can never enjoy the +3 mental stats w/o sucking physical ability penalties, that entire block of text is literally a waste of space that may as well have never been written. It's one of their class features. It's core. Deal with it.
If they're both just standing off at range the fighter can start making longbow full attacks, while the monk doesn't have much in the way of a ranged game.But that takes away most of the critical threat, does much less damage, and greatly increases chances for Spring Attacks.
Ranged or Thrown weapons probably do have a lower Crit Rate vs. Melee, and a Melee Full Attack would have alot higher chance of Critting for that reason... But the Fighter getting a Ranged/Thrown Full Attack still does offer a rather high chance of Critting, certainly COMPARATIVELY to the Monk, which is ultimately the issue. If the Monk is close enough, Thrown Weapons using Rapid Fire AND 2WF is going to give the Fighter EVEN MORE Crit Chances, so the Monk being able to Deflect one of those is just not going to give the Monk a safe margin.
I don't see any need for the Fighter to 'reconfigure Feats'. The Fighter doesn't need all weapon groups to be equal, he has enough Weapon Training Groups and Feats for them to all massively outclass the Monk.
Paizo has not changed Stealth rules, they specifically posted so re: questions of what happened to the Stealth Blog, they consider it a design change and aren't doing that. The Monk doesn't really have anything special going re: Stealth anyways, the Fighter is just as much capable of using Stealth to his advantage. Smoke Bombs are great, but they prevent sight both ways (except adjacent squares, which allows sight both ways with Partial Concealment).
Was it actually that case that Ciretose completely overlooked the Fighter's Armor Training ability?
Ah, you were relying on age bonuses.
Well nobody said you couldn't but then these are fresh characters so I think everyone assumed starting ages (at least on this side of the fence).
Again, you can use any age you want, they are fresh 20th level characters, no one is born 20th level, but I'm more than willing to let the fighter builds age themselves to take advantage of venerable.
Oh, and difficult terrain, where did that come from?
Caltrops, partial cover etc. etc. I think you're forgetting the gist of the conversation
What you are basically saying is that the monk wins if he gets to choose when (age) and where (terrain features) the encounter takes place. Well, that's basically admitting that the monk cannot win unless he gets to choose this, and I don't think that's a very good argument to use.
No, what I'm saying is that unless the fight is the monk and fighter standing adjacent trading blows, the monk wins.
Getting to choose the age of your character is NOT a class feature. Your argument is invalid. Keep it straight and civil. My reply to your setting the age to venerable will be: Okay, in 40 years when we're both venerable and I'm level 30, we'll duel.
===Aelryinth
You're right being able to choose your age is an ability of anyone who makes a character. Not taking the penalties for having a venerable character is a class feature.
The problem with Dabbler's and your solution (and yours isn't really a solution because the monk will also be 30th level but the fighter's physical stats will have been greatly reduced and the monk's still won't, so it will be an even bigger disadvantage) is you are putting limits on the OTHER character. It would be like me saying, you have to play an elf. What I'm doing doesn't impact your character at all. I'm not using any options that you can't also take advantage of. You don't see me crying foul because you get to use armor without penalty. Game rules say I can pick my age, I get to pick my age.
But here's the thing that NONE of this changes: The only real way for the fighter to win, is to make a hopelessly gimped character that can't do anything except fight monks. Who wants to revisit the monk/fighter thread again?
if you accept that the frame of reference has shifted from damage to 'winning',
the monk taking actions that amount to evading engagement can't possibly help the monk's statistical chance of 'winning'.
the fighter, who has an equal or higher chance of winning Init, has a higher chance of winning just from that.
trying to change the frame of reference again to 'not losing' would seem to come off rather poorly if one had a habit of whining 'schrodinger' when informed that the other party has multiple options.
the 1v1 contest in obviously unrealistic, on top of the unrealism of the assumptions of Core + no Magic 20th level characters. within those assumptions, you can make unrealistic builds to shine within the given arena. or, you can ignore the 1v1 canard that was a deviation from the OP's concerns, and look at DPR... which is no contest.
I have a question that this scenario has brought up. Could a character ready an action to "strike the next thing that comes at him" and use it to sunder arrows or shurikens out of the air? That would allow the fighter to sit in one spot with melee out, never having to switch to ranged and thereby eliminating the monk strategy of needing the switch for spring attack.
...Oh, and someone brought up contact poison for the monk earlier. Just because he's immune doesn't mean he can't "be poisoned", he just doesn't suffer the effects. It's not like a spiders venom would shoot out of the wound after it bit him, it just wouldn't effect him.
how do you spring attack on a horse again?
Anyways, I think the more productive approach is just showing that the GM's ridiculous low damage Fighter is not representative of Fighter damage. He apparently didn't care about the results of abstract DPR contests... OK, but you can use any high DPR build to show him what a real character can actually do in game... Many of those builds are not far fetched, and have free Feats for non-DPR concerns.
Since we're comparing character builds and not the relative merits of free stat bonuses from aging, it's assumed the characters are of equal age and not taking any physical penalties.
PFS does the same thing to prevent monk-cheaters from blowing point buy, which is effectively what this is doing. Dragonwrought Kobolds would (try to) do the same thing.
It's not gonna fly in any real comparison, and so is a ludicrous thing to put forwards.
I'm certainly going to ignore it.
===Aelryinth
how do you spring attack on a horse again?
I'm not sure why this is relevant, but maybe I missed something, who's on a horse? If you're talking about the monk, he gets 90' as a class ability, that's not on a horse (80' if dwarf).
As far as 'Schrodinger' monk (which I just figured out what that means) I've given you my stats and so far the only feats I've suggested are:
Weapon Finesse
Weapon Focus
Spring Attack
Dodge
Toughness
That's it. Those are the only feats I've suggested. I haven't touched the Dimensional Agility line yet, I haven't used Ki against most builds, and so haven't said anything about Extra Ki. I've killed your fighters in 3 hits (give or take) using monk abilities, 5 feats and some type of cover or difficult terrain.
Caltrops are not going to help the fighter at all. The monk is more mobile and the only shot the fighter has is a charge. A monk will also not be "launching a bolt" they will be spring attacking with Stunning Fist, that depending on the build, the fighter needs to beat an 11-14 (failing over 50% of the time). They don't need 30' of caltrops, only need 5' of caltrops as long as it keeps the fighter from making a straight line. But it doesn't have to be caltrops, it can be a rock, rough terrain or any of the thousands of things that stop a charge.
Since we're comparing character builds and not the relative merits of free stat bonuses from aging, it's assumed the characters are of equal age and not taking any physical penalties.
PFS does the same thing to prevent monk-cheaters from blowing point buy, which is effectively what this is doing. Dragonwrought Kobolds would (try to) do the same thing.
It's not gonna fly in any real comparison, and so is a ludicrous thing to put forwards.
I'm certainly going to ignore it.
===Aelryinth
Feel free to ignore anything you like. Add extra movement, Stunning Fist, and Improved Unarmed Strike to your list. It doesn't change its validity. We are comparing the merits of the classes the monk class allows you to age your character, get the benefits of aging, without the limitations. You don't like the fact that puts the fighter at a disadvantage, I'm okay with that, and as far as I know Dragonwrought Kobolds aren't in the Core rulebook.
Here's what really kills me. When presented with a monk build who really has the odds in their favor, no one can say, wow maybe I was wrong about the monk, they are viable. Instead, everyone screams "CHEATER!"
I just started a thread for my question.
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So what is being said here is that the monk wins when he gets to set ALL the terms of engagement, from terrain to age at the time of the engagement, right down to the terms of winning.
I don't think there's any point arguing here, the goalposts will get moved every time to say "I WIN" for the monk, so I'll go be reasonable some place else.
If I was playing a monk, that would count as winning.
Honestly, you don't get to level 20 overnight. If anything, any human, half-elf, or (dear gods) half-orc level 20 character is very likely to be at least middle-aged by then. I actually think assuming level 20 teenagers, or twenty-somethings is pretty egregious and odd.
Since we're comparing character builds and not the relative merits of free stat bonuses from aging, it's assumed the characters are of equal age and not taking any physical penalties.
The free stat bonuses are a class feature. It's no more cheating than the Fighter using his feat swap every 4th level to gain a feat he could not have gained at the time of taking the feat he's swapping out (an "abuse" that was given official thumbs up in an FAQ).
I really do find it odd, out of an entire build I admit is cheesy and stupid and would never survive or work in any actual game, the age thing is what you're getting so hung up on... The cha and int bonuses don't even matter or help the monk, all it's even really helping with is +3 wis. Pretty tame for a level 17 class feature
PFS does the same thing to prevent monk-cheaters from blowing point buy, which is effectively what this is doing.
1. PFS stops at level 12 and this ability isn't until level 17, so...what the hell?
2. "Monk cheaters"?!!! Like, I pick the weakest class in the game because I'm interested in cheating or breaking the game? SERIOUSLY WHAT THE F***ING HELL, MAN?!!!!!
Dragonwrought Kobolds would (try to) do the same thing.
Yes, Dragonwrought Kobolds could actually do it from level 1, so unlike monk it was actually easy and viable for them to do so. And far more unrealistic. Monk getting to 17 and then slowly gaining the last few levels as he ages to venerable? Way more believeable than some kobold who sat on his ass till he needed adult diapers, then decides to go off adventuring!
It's not gonna fly in any real comparison, and so is a ludicrous thing to put forwards.
This whole contest is dumb and contrived. Level 20 characters just popping out of a box with no magic gear.
I'm certainly going to ignore it.
===Aelryinth
You do that.
Honestly, you don't get to level 20 overnight. If anything, any human, half-elf, or (dear gods) half-orc level 20 character is very likely to be at least middle-aged by then. I actually think assuming level 20 teenagers, or twenty-somethings is pretty egregious and odd.
True. But having that +3 to Int, Wis, and Cha assumes that you have reached venerable age either before or after you reached 20th level. Timeless Body is acheived as a class feature at 17th. It does not remove the penalties assigned to physical ability scores prior to acheiving 17th level--the ability only keeps you from receiving new ones on reaching the proper age bracket.
So, if you have NO penalties to your Str, Dex, and Con, and a +3 bonus to Int, Wis, and Cha, then you reached 17th level before middle age, correct?
Now, a human reaches middle age at 35, and a human monk starts his adventuring career at an average age of 22. So, he took at least 13 years to reach 17th level. That is 850,000 xp on the fast track, 1,300,000 on the medium, and 1,900,000 xp on the slow. Then, he ages 35 more years to reach venerable (age 70). 35 years to earn 1,550,000 xp on the fast track, 2.3 million on the medium, and 3.45 millon on the slow progression.
On the medium chart (which is what probably most of us use), that means for his first seventeen levels, he earns an average of 100,000 xp per year. That drops to an average of 65,714.285~ for the next 35 years. At the same time as the encounters that he faces yield more and more experience. A single CR 20 opponent yields 307,200 xp for being defeated. A single CR 17 opponent nets 102,400 xp. You see what I am getting at here?
So, I am sorry, Stream of the Sky; I agree with you much of the time, but not in this case. Most games that even reach 20th level do so well before any age variations come into play. That was true in 3.0, it remained true in 3.5, and it continues to be so in Pathfinder.
Master Arminas