Bladebound Staff Magus = Blackstaff?

[Seraphimpunk]

So... Aside from the Black Blades sidebar ( and the word "blade" everywhere ), is there anything specific to blades in the archetype?

( I know "a black blade is always a one-handed slashing weapon, a rapier, or a sword cane". But I'd really like to play a "Blackstaff", just wondering if I have to wait for a home game and beg the GM to bend that rule, if there is some part of the archtype that I'm overlooking that is slashing/piercing specific, or if I'd be able to mix Bladebound and Staff Magus in organized play for fun. )

[Paladin of Baha-who?]

Unless you can find a "staff" that is a 1-handed slashing weapon, then a house rule is the only way.

[LazarX]

Me thinks the Staff Magus was deliberately designed not to be combineable with the black blade magus. Overall I think it was a wise choice to do so.

[Banatine]

You could always just take both archetypes and switch between the two weapons as you like. (as an added bonus you can do rediculous galdalf-esque sword staff fighting too!)

But then, when i play a magus i'm either a Bladebound Kensai, or a Bladebound Hexcrafter Staff magus (i do like my multi-archetypes!)

[Paladin of Baha-who?]

Well, that's a good point that a blackblade magus doesn't have to only fight with hir black blade. However, such a combination would be working at cross purposes. For one thing, the staff magus is only proficient with simple weapons. There are NO one-handed slashing simple weapons in pathfinder, unless there's one in some obscure AP or splatbook that isn't showing up on d20pfsrd.com. So, the magus would have to spend a precious feat or at least a trait on martial weapon proficiency. I suppose any race with a racial weapons ability would be able to get around this, but that still costs a feat vs. being human. Otherwise, you're at a -4 to attack with the black blade. Also, the blackblade magus gains fewer arcane pool points and misses out on one arcana for a weapon that probably won't be his primary weapon.

[Benly]

On the bright side, there's no real mechanical reason for the restrictions. It's just that the developers wanted to stick with a specific flavor. The abilities make just as much sense with a non-slashing weapon and aren't particularly stronger with a staff, so as long as you can come up with some flavor decent enough to compete with "Elric knockoff", you shouldn't have too hard a time convincing a non-PFS GM to allow it.

[Starbuck_II]

Paladin of Baha-who? wrote:

Well, that's a good point that a blackblade magus doesn't have to only fight with hir black blade. However, such a combination would be working at cross purposes. For one thing, the staff magus is only proficient with simple weapons. There are NO one-handed slashing simple weapons in pathfinder, unless there's one in some obscure AP or splatbook that isn't showing up on d20pfsrd.com. So, the magus would have to spend a precious feat or at least a trait on martial weapon proficiency. I suppose any race with a racial weapons ability would be able to get around this, but that still costs a feat vs. being human. Otherwise, you're at a -4 to attack with the black blade. Also, the blackblade magus gains fewer arcane pool points and misses out on one arcana for a weapon that probably won't be his primary weapon.

Daggers are slashing. And one handed.

Hook hands and sickles are as well.

[Benly]

Starbuck_II wrote:

Daggers are slashing. And one handed.

Hook hands and sickles are as well.

"One-handed weapon" is a specific category distinct from "light weapon". There are simple slashing weapons that can be wielded with one hand, but there are no simple slashing weapons that are "one-handed weapons".

[blackbloodtroll]

A Sibat will give you the look you want, and it can be a blackblade.

[blahpers]

Sibat is Eastern martial, not simple.

[Name Violation]

I personally allow a special exotic weapon thats a "Staff attackment", exotic double weapon, d8 bludeoning x3/ d6 slashing 18-20x2

basically a weaghted set that clamps onto any staff, and lets you use staff feats, but with cooler stuff

[blackbloodtroll]

A feat will give you Sibat.

[Tiny Coffee Golem]

Benly wrote:

There are simple slashing weapons that can be wielded with one hand, but there are no simple slashing weapons that are "one-handed weapons".

Assume you didn't write this sentence and imagine reading it for the first time.

*waits patiently*

Now a dagger is a simple one-handed slashing weapon. How is it not one-handed?

[Mad Beetle]

You could also just play a dwarf or an elf. All dwarfs can use battleaxes and all elves longsword an rapiers.
I kinda like the idea of a dwarf mage dual-wieldeing a magical staff and an black axe. Like an stunty, alchoholic parody of gandalf.

[blackbloodtroll]

A dagger is wielded with one hand, but it is not in the one-handed weapon category. It is in the light weapon category. You can wield a one-handed weapon with two hands, but that does not change it's category.

[Starbuck_II]

blackbloodtroll wrote:

A dagger is wielded with one hand, but it is not in the one-handed weapon category. It is in the light weapon category. You can wield a one-handed weapon with two hands, but that does not change it's category.

Does it say one handed category weapons? No, then any weapon able to be wielded one handed works.

[blackbloodtroll]

Starbuck_II wrote:

blackbloodtroll wrote:

A dagger is wielded with one hand, but it is not in the one-handed weapon category. It is in the light weapon category. You can wield a one-handed weapon with two hands, but that does not change it's category.

Does it say one handed category weapons? No, then any weapon able to be wielded one handed works.

It does if we are discussing the Blackblade class feature.

[Tiny Coffee Golem]

blackbloodtroll wrote:

Starbuck_II wrote:

blackbloodtroll wrote:

A dagger is wielded with one hand, but it is not in the one-handed weapon category. It is in the light weapon category. You can wield a one-handed weapon with two hands, but that does not change it's category.

Does it say one handed category weapons? No, then any weapon able to be wielded one handed works.

It does if we are discussing the Blackblade class feature.

I see no reason why a dagger couldn't be a "black blade."

[blackbloodtroll]

No, with that reasoning, a claw can be a blackblade. It cannot.
See here:

PRD wrote:

Light, One-Handed, and Two-Handed Melee Weapons

This designation is a measure of how much effort it takes to wield a weapon in combat. It indicates whether a melee weapon, when wielded by a character of the weapon's size category, is considered a light weapon, a one-handed weapon, or a two-handed weapon.

[Name Violation]

"a black blade is always a one-handed slashing weapon, a rapier, or a sword cane"

no daggers

[blackbloodtroll]

There is already a thread on what a Blackblade can be.
Here it is:
What can a Blackblade be?

[Seraphimpunk]

So a Large Dagger?

[Paladin of Baha-who?]

A large dagger would be considered a one-handed weapon when wielded by a Medium creature, so I suppose so. What would be the point though? You'd take a -2 to attack and it'd only do as much damage as a shortsword. Might as well use the heirloom weapon trait, or be a half-elf or an elf, and get proficiency in a scimitar or a longsword.

[Name Violation]

Seraphimpunk wrote:

So a Large Dagger?

a large dagger is a light weapon for its intended size catagory, so no go unless you are a large creature. its still a light weapon when used by a medium creature, it just takes "1 hand" to use like a one handed weapon

[Paladin of Baha-who?]

Equipment wrote:

The measure of how much effort it takes to use a weapon (whether the weapon is designated as a light, one-handed, or two-handed weapon for a particular wielder) is altered by one step for each size category of difference between the wielder's size and the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed. For example, a Small creature would wield a Medium one-handed weapon as a two-handed weapon. If a weapon's designation would be changed to something other than light, one-handed, or two-handed by this alteration, the creature can't wield the weapon at all.

This implies that the categories of light, one-handed and two-handed are not absolute but determined relative to the wielder. A light weapon for a medium-sized character is a one-handed weapon for a small character, albeit one not designed for the small character and therefore resulting in a penalty.

[Benly]

Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:

Benly wrote:

There are simple slashing weapons that can be wielded with one hand, but there are no simple slashing weapons that are "one-handed weapons".

Assume you didn't write this sentence and imagine reading it for the first time.

*waits patiently*

Now a dagger is a simple one-handed slashing weapon. How is it not one-handed?

Assume you've never played D&D or PF and that someone on an expedition has just found the stairs to go down a level but wants to train and go up a level before he goes down a level, because he's only level 5 and wants level 4 spells before he descends to level 6.

It's almost like a word can mean more than one thing and sometimes you have to disambiguate them. Such as, for example, the "one-handed weapons" category and the set of weapons which can be wielded in one hand.

[Seraphimpunk]

oh i'm just stirring up trouble at this point

[blackbloodtroll]

Yes, you are. I suggest posting on the linked thread above.

[Name Violation]

Paladin of Baha-who? wrote:

Equipment wrote:

The measure of how much effort it takes to use a weapon (whether the weapon is designated as a light, one-handed, or two-handed weapon for a particular wielder) is altered by one step for each size category of difference between the wielder's size and the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed. For example, a Small creature would wield a Medium one-handed weapon as a two-handed weapon. If a weapon's designation would be changed to something other than light, one-handed, or two-handed by this alteration, the creature can't wield the weapon at all.

This implies that the categories of light, one-handed and two-handed are not absolute but determined relative to the wielder. A light weapon for a medium-sized character is a one-handed weapon for a small character, albeit one not designed for the small character and therefore resulting in a penalty.

amount of effort required =/= kind of weapon

in their example

a Small creature would wield a Medium one-handed weapon as a two-handed weapon.

its not a 2 handed weapon, but a 1 handed weapon that requires 2 hands

[thefortier]

I think they reason they made the two incompatible is because of the Staff Magus' Quarterstaff Defense class feature. With the enhancement of the black blade coupled with enhancement from Arcane Pool, you can get a +10 shield bonus to your AC at level 17ish. I think the designers found that to be too powerful, so ensured it couldn't be done.

[Xexyz]

I'm pretty sure you can't be the Blackstaff unless you defeat Ebenezar McCoy in a duel.

[thefortier]

I sorta found a way around it, using a Magus Arcana found on d20pfsrd.com from Rite Publishing. Eldritch Athame. Spend an arcane point and transform your blackblade into a blackstaff.

I plan on making a half-drow bladebound hexcrafter spellblade staff magus (load up on the archetypes) using the Half-Drow Paragon feat and the Drow Nobility line of feats. Could be interesting....

Use Pool Strike to add to weapon strikes, Vampiric Thirst coupled with Vampiric Touch to regain lost hit points, Eldritch Athame to turn Black Blade into Black Staff, and Charge of the Magi and Song of Arcane Triumph to add to damage as needed.

Use darkness spell-like, and faerie fire, as needed to battlefield control, etc. Misfortune hex to add damage as needed. Slumber hex for coup-de-grace attempts.

Should be fun.

[Pendagast]

wait whats half drow paragin feat where is that

[Krigare]

Xexyz wrote:

I'm pretty sure you can't be the Blackstaff unless you defeat Ebenezar McCoy in a duel.

This. Totally awesome reference.

[thefortier]

Half-Drow Paragon is from the Advanced Race Guide. Allows you to be counted as a drow for the purpose of effects (including feats).

[Torquar]

An issue is that a staff is a double weapon. Unless the black blade is only one side of the staff (which seems a bit daft) you are effectively getting two magic weapons.

[ianwk420]

its also a forgotten fact that the staff magus comes with quarterstaff mastery feat at level 1, which says

By employing a number of different stances and techniques, you can wield a quarterstaff as a one-handed weapon. At the start of your turn, you decide whether or not you are going to wield the quarterstaff as a one-handed or two-handed weapon. When you wield it as a one-handed weapon, your other hand is free, and you cannot use the staff as a double weapon. You can take the feat Weapon Specialization in the quarterstaff even if you have no levels in fighter.

[spalding]

So what you do is take hexcrafter, bladebound, spellblade and staff magus.

For your hex grab the prehensile hair hex. You wield your staff with your hair and your black blade with your hand and the spellblade with your free hand.

Since the spellblade doesn't count as being in hand when it comes to casting spells you are good to go and you have your staff and black blade too.

[LazarX]

Abraham spalding wrote:

So what you do is take hexcrafter, bladebound, spellblade and staff magus.

For your hex grab the prehensile hair hex. You wield your staff with your hair and your black blade with your hand and the spellblade with your free hand.

Since the spellblade doesn't count as being in hand when it comes to casting spells you are good to go and you have your staff and black blade too.

Of course by taking Hexes, you graduate to that coveted Nunber 1 target status held by your witch friends.

[LazarX]

Xexyz wrote:

I'm pretty sure you can't be the Blackstaff unless you defeat Ebenezar McCoy in a duel.

Actually the person you'd have to beat would be Khelben "Blackstaff" Arunsun.

[spalding]

LazarX wrote:

Abraham spalding wrote:

So what you do is take hexcrafter, bladebound, spellblade and staff magus.

For your hex grab the prehensile hair hex. You wield your staff with your hair and your black blade with your hand and the spellblade with your free hand.

Since the spellblade doesn't count as being in hand when it comes to casting spells you are good to go and you have your staff and black blade too.

Of course by taking Hexes, you graduate to that coveted Nunber 1 target status held by your witch friends.

... I'm okay with this.

[thefortier]

So here's a build that could be fun. Maybe not powerful, but fun.

Tiefling bladebound fiendslayer hexcrafter spellblade staff magus.

Never be without a weapon. Black blade, fiend blade, spell athame. Only have to buy a staff (preferably find the staff of power! for a +5 weapon).

Dual wield in all sorts of ways!

Staff and black blade.
Staff and fiend blade.
Staff and spell blade.
Black blade and fiend blade.
Black blade and spell blade.
Fiendblade and spell blade.

Held captive? Summon your black blade to you. Summon a spellblade. Summon your fiend blade.
No armour? Grab a staff, and boom! Armour bonus!

[Kazaan]

Granted, it's a necro, but I should probably weigh in on this because it seems like an interesting subject. First off, Bladebound and Staff Magus are compatible as archetypes because neither replaces the same Magus class ability (I didn't see that anyone explicitly put that out). Now, regarding the weapon choices for a Bladebound, it does specify a "one-handed slashing weapon", Rapier, or Sword Cane as valid weapons. In all other circumstances where it would include both, the rules specify "one-handed or light weapons". In this case, they don't. Therefore, since "one-handed weapon" is a mechanically significant term, it really does mean one-handed category weapons so no daggers. Next, wielding a weapon from the wrong handedness category doesn't change its base but, rather, makes the character wield it "as if" it were another category. If the blade must be a "one-handed slashing weapon", Rapier, or Cane Sword, then it must be the Base Form because it's the weapon itself that is a magical item; it isn't a magical item because of the manner in which the magus wields it. So a Medium Magus could have a Small Longsword, for example, and it would qualify as a Blackblade because it is a one-handed slashing weapon; but the magus would wield it as if it were a light weapon (if he so chooses). Likewise, he could have a Large Longsword as his blackblade and wield it as if it were a 2-h weapon. A Quarterstaff, however, doesn't match the criteria to be a blackblade. Now, does that stop such a Magus from having both a black-blade and a quarterstaff? Absolutely not. He can whip out the blackblade when it's needed and resort to the quarterstaff in other situations. I forget if there's some ability that bypasses the need to have a free hand available for Spell Combat, but in a pinch, an extra arm or two via Alchemist dip could suffice. Oh, and a Whip is also a one-handed slashing weapon so a whip can be a "blackblade" as well.

[LazarX]

The quarterstaff remains a two handed weapon despite any tricks that you can employ to make it one handed.

So unless you get GM Fiat, you can't make it your "black blade".

[Tiny Coffee Golem]

LazarX wrote:

The quarterstaff remains a two handed weapon despite any tricks that you can employ to make it one handed.

So unless you get GM Fiat, you can't make it your "black blade".

It's also not slashing.

[insaneogeddon]

So you're sayin large bastard swords are valid black blades.....

[.Hate9]

If you get Weapon Versatility, you can change the Quarterstaff to a slashing weapon.

Also, don't you have to be appointed by the White Council to become the Blackstaff?

[Gisher]

.Hate9 wrote:

If you get Weapon Versatility, you can change the Quarterstaff to a slashing weapon.

The weapon type Quarterstaff is not Slashing. Your ability to deal Slashing damage with a Quarterstaff does not change that.

.Hate9 wrote:

Also, don't you have to be appointed by the White Council to become the Blackstaff?

Yes. :)