You don't need to play the stereotype that makes you hate elves. You can still play a character with a personality, just play it the way you think an elf would be that person.
While this is true, you have to be mindful of going against the grain. Which ever way the grain goes is up to the DM and/or the world you're adventuring in.
In Golarion, your non-jerk elf is not the norm.
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I loved The Hobbit, and Lord of the Rings, still disliked the elves though. Samwise was more or less my favorite character, that guy turned into one bad mutha. I also always wanted to play as a Giant Eagle.
Moving on, I have found myself fond of more monstrous characters. Maybe that will help with any concept idea. I am working this, I mean it, I am trying.
I loved The Hobbit, and Lord of the Rings, still disliked the elves though. Samwise was more or less my favorite character, that guy turned into one bad mutha.
Samwise is the chief hero of LoTR, a finer point that I think may have been lost on Jackson. Tolkien even says as much in letters. Sam represents the common soldier (the batmen and privates in the trenches). Tolkien had great respect for those guys.
Moving on, I have found myself fond of more monstrous characters. Maybe that will help with any concept idea. I am working this, I mean it, I am trying.
I've been avoiding monstrous races. Playing an elf right now, next character is a hu-mon after that.
/ my elf started out as a jerk-elf, but has changed his tune over the course of 8+ years of nation-building
I loved Xan the enchanter from the Baldur's Gate computer game, a depressing character best described as 'anti-bard'.
Quotes :
Xan
We're all doomed.
We delude ourselves to think that our pitiable band will stand up to our enemies.
Life is so hollow.
Oh, what is the point?
Our quest is vain.
Let us save our effort and just lie down and die!
I'll do what I can, but expect very little.
( If the character has a high reputation) With you around, I almost feel that we have a chance!
The sun shines, and I'm amazed we live to see another day!
Onward, to futility!
I surely shall collapse from exhaustion before I fall on the battlefield.
(In cities) The bluster of the city makes me feel... insignificant.
Another death in our hopeless crusade
It seems our resident suicide monger, Ajantis, lives in a black and white world.
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How about some kind of British smuggery? Make a rogue of the gentleman type and play him as a bastard. You'll need a good symbol for your elf. Something black and sinister with a sense of menace. Perhaps and adder? Yes, a Blackadder would do nicely.
BBT,
I played in an X-Crawl game for about a year as an elf. This is a campaign setting that really plays up the effete, arrogant, twink aspect of the race. It's also a setting partially set in an alternate timeline of our own world where North America is a third incarnation of the Roman Empire and adventuring is a televised bloodsport similar to pro wrestling.
Now my guy was a little older than a typical starting character. He was an old jazz band trumpet player (bard) who had "lost his lip" after a twenty year heroin addiction during the 60's and 70's. With my age though I had to fill in the blanks. I was from what would be modern Belgium, so I'd been in my early twenties during WW2, I'd fought Nazis as part of the underground. I'd soured on postwar industrialism and become a beatnik musician. Taken part in the Warhol modern art scene and been involved in all kinds of badly executed get rich quick schemes. Which left me in my apparent late 30's, broke, sober and needing a job. So I joined a TV adventuring group in an attempt to get rich quick.
My Mother hated the idea and found it to be the single most disappointing thing I'd ever done ( keep in mind I'm an ex junkie who spent time in jail for scamming people in a savings and loan scandal). So on top of all the other silliness my character has mommy issues going back 50 years.
Now none of this applies to a typical fantasy setting, but this character showed me something about elves that gets glossed over almost criminally in RPG's. They're old. With that age comes huge space to develop backstory, and this character had a metric crapton of skeletons in his closet. Those skeletons made for a very interesting character to RP. (He was mechanically a mess, my first 3.5 bard, but that's irrelevant)
Adventurers are in many ways broken and or flawed individuals. Elf players often forget this and post up a 2 paragraph backstory of" I lived in the woods for a hundred and twenty years, got bored and decided to see the world". While I'll concede the RP conceit that life moves at a slower pace for the elven races but use that long life Alan to make for a really mixed up history.
I didn't play that character as an aloof snob, rather as an aging "coulda' been" coping with a midlife crisis, who acted like a teen ager chasing groupies a tenth of his age and avoiding any form of familial or racial responsibility. He wasn't evil but he could be a right nasty piece of work when pushed. Morality is a subjective concept and it tends to warp through the lens of time.
Most campaign settings have a reasonably well thought out time line for the 200 years prior to the campaigns start, an elven character can mine that history for stuff to make for an interesting character concept. Screw the preconceived cliches, at the core most characters are just people regardless of the word in RACE box on a character sheet.
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My last campaign one of the players played an Elf Ranger (stereotypical so far, I know. Stay with me.) that was a Bounty Hunter type with humans as his favored enemy. He had been horribly experimented on by wizards as a "child" which left him horribly deformed and scarred. He was resentful, bitter, couldn't give less of a damn about nature, and was far more focused on revenge than haughtily lecturing everybody else about the inferiority of humans.
They don't have to be androgynous, and just being slight of build doesn't mean they can't be terrifying. Look at Freddy Krueger or the Cenobites from Hellraiser.
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While I do love your explanation of Elven ways, I wanted to point out that things had to be this way for the game world to make sense. If elves where adventuring/mature at age 18 like humans, the entire elven population would be level 20. How could you justify them not being the dominante force on the planet?
Low birth rate. They get into a war, it takes a thousand years to recoup their numbers. In a thousand years, the humans can take over.
Alright, maybe playing an elf that completely lacks the elf flavor is the way to redemption. If someone has any ideas how to do this, I welcome the advice.
One of the forlorn has been suggested.
You don't need to play the stereotype that makes you hate elves. You can still play a character with a personality, just play it the way you think an elf would be that person.While this is true, you have to be mindful of going against the grain. Which ever way the grain goes is up to the DM and/or the world you're adventuring in.
In Golarion, your non-jerk elf is not the norm.
Why? Who says you have to play a jerk if you are an elf? Who says all elves are jerks? It's easy to resent the guy that will live ten times longer than you - I mean, who gave them the right? Why can't they share their secret? What makes them think that they are better than us, more deserving of more life than us? I bet they are secretly trying to take over the world, with elf enclaves in every city, undermining human economies, like rats they gnaw at the roots of our civilisation! Unite against them! Cast them out! We will unite under one leader and create the final solution to the elvish problem!
...or not. What I am trying to point out here is that living longer than everyone else, staying young while they grow old, is the kind of thing that leads to resentment. A LOT of resentment. So maybe the elven stereotype isn't the elf, it's the rest of the shorter-lived races looking for something to justify their dislike.
I love Blackadder, Rowan Atkinson is hilarious.
Blackadder the elf would be cool.
RPGs are responsible for that.
Principally the old comics line that Marvel did under license for TSR.
GYGAX's elven nations were a little condescending to their neighbors in the Greyhawk timelines.
Then of course you have the entirety of elven history on Faerun.
The Forgotten Realms cemented the arrogant elf stereotype but also gave us virtually every racial flaw that is generally quoted by RPGers. This is mostly due to Greenwood and company exhaustively mapping out elven history.
Elaith Craulnobur?
I haven't read the books, but I used that guy to abuse my first group of FR players for the entire campaign. He was the best NPC in FR1 Waterdeep and the North. That Elaine tapped him in a novel was awesome but I've never gotten around to reading it.
The Grey Box just touched on the elves, it was the later products thT got into the nitty gritty.
Lost Empires of Faerun, told the story of the dynastic wars that put the race int decline.
Grand History of the realms summarizes it pretty well ( I'd suggest that book to anyone).
Greenwoods story about Myth Drannor, Khelben's father and coming of humans to the Dales was full of elven hubris. I'm completely spacing on what that was.
I have no idea where the effete, arrogant version of the elf comes from.
Where can I find it in fiction or campaign settings?
As an example: Tolkien's elves are not effete or arrogant, and he pretty much invented the modern elf.
Lothlorien elves, man. Check 'em out.
Anyone who believes that excess body/facial hair = masculinity is foolish and deluded. Chuck Norris be damned.
Hey, whoa, we're treading into dangerous territory here.
It would be nice to have an elf that befriended orcs.
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This is awesome, awesome news.
Absolutely outstandingly awesome news.
All of this junk about effete, arrogant elves comes from a campaign setting that I don't play in and care nothing about.
Huzzar!
So, the OP can just play an elf without all of these tiresome, stupid cliches.
Huzzar!
Elves are interesting because they are ancient, graceful and intelligent, but they are also interesting because they are weak and have low fertility.
They are aliens who have a conflicted relationship with the world they have a terrible racial secret, most of their old empires are controlled by humans...
This is interesting stuff.
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Lothlorien elves, man. Check 'em out.I have no idea where the effete, arrogant version of the elf comes from.
Where can I find it in fiction or campaign settings?
As an example: Tolkien's elves are not effete or arrogant, and he pretty much invented the modern elf.
Yep, read those books.
If you can quote me chapter and verse on this tiresome cliche I'll borrow a hat and eat it.
I can't find it in Lord of the Rings, and I've read it about 8 or 9 times.
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It's obvious to me.
...that really doesn't make any more sense than saying the same thing about Halflings. Or Kobolds. Which is to say it could be true, but without citations of some sort it's not actually true in anyone's game world but yours.
And yet homo- and bisexual people are only a fraction of human population. That's hardly "mostly".
The scientific research as a whole seems to bear out the Kinsey scale and similar things (in broad strokes, if not detail). Most (though by no means all) people seem to be bisexual to some degree...that's just not culturally acceptable right now, so most people don't act on their homosexual impulses to anywhere near the same degree they act on their heterosexual ones.
But this is really a topic for another thread. Start one if you like, but either way, I'm done commenting on it in this one.
Perhaps what ImperatorK means is that elven society permits them to express alternative sexuality more freely than human society? They are generally chaotic by nature, after all.
Well it's not obvious to me why their sexuality would be any different from any other race, and without any explanation your statement leaves me none the wiser.
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Here's an idea: Play one of the Forlorn, an Elf raised by humans, and have him hate all this s%~% every bit as much as you do. Have him go on rants about it (and Elven hypocrisy in general) and punch other Elves in the face about it at least once.
Have him physically androgynous as well...and hyper-aware of it, and pissed. Making him hyper-masculine in attitude and very confrontational. Maybe go Barbarian if you really want to accentuate this.
This should be great fun, and still potentially a very Elven character in several ways.
I never quite pegged Forlorn like that - and I love it. Next character is going to be an elf-hating elf.
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Regarding Forgotten Realms elves, people seem to take all the wrong impressions from them. It's true their history is full of hubris and folly, but so is the history of dwarves or other races and especially humanity. Humans in the setting in particular have some of the greatest screw-ups, Netheril, Imaskar, etc.
Each race or group paid for their arrogance (including virtual extinction for the Netherese and Imaskari ethnicities), getting knocked down a few pegs only to climb up again. For elves and dwarves they were kind of on their way out in the 2e and 3e era, that's how far they fell from their previous dominant positions.
Also, the folly of the elves is used to highlight that when the stereotypical arrogant elves were in charge, their empires have a tendency to fall. Myth Drannor was at the height of power in the reign of the Coronal who welcomed humans, dwarves, halflings, gnomes and other races into the kingdom, but after he passed (and his heir died) did the elven leadership not cooperate with the other races and Myth Drannor fell. Some elves fought besides the other races trying to preserve the kingdom, but they couldn't succeed with the divisiveness.
Same thing for the Crown Wars, different tyrannical elven dynasties going at it, gobbling up smaller elven kingdoms into mega-empires, then it all fell when they escalated the violence and dark magic with the other side. Been some years since I've followed FR lore, but I recall the leadership who perpetuated these massive wars are not looked upon in a positive light by mainstream elves of the setting. Except for the dark elves who became drow and embraced it.
It's interesting how the history meant to reflect upon these issues with some measure of complexity (for a fantasy setting) is instead reduced down and taken as a baseline stereotype for the entire race as a default.
A friend has short lived Elves, with the catch that they 're-incarnate' after they die. There are tribes that are positively feral!
I think that there are lots of versions of elves and elven society out there. Heck 4e split them into two races. Tolkien has severa subraces. Dragonlance had at least 3 variants. Forgotten Realms has a number of variants. Elves in the hobbits feel more gnomish, but those same elves have a more subdued nature in LOTR. The Simarillion has elves who are more akin to keltic or norse stoic heroes. The recent transition from tree-hugging elves to free sex elves. There is more than enough room to play a wide variety of elves.
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A lot of the issues with elven stereotypes can probably be solved through moderation.
The notion that they are dainty fighters who cannot wield 'real weapons' is a bit unfair. Instead, it's worth noting that their stats, vision qualities, and perception bonuses mean that the bulk of their fighting is done on the move, at range. Their Con penalty means they have less HP, their other advantages generally suggest they want to use Light Armor (or no armor, for Wizards) to keep their Speed up. This is a shoot-and-scoot force. At levels 1-4 this only works so well though, you will eventually have enemies catch up.
Thus, it seems entirely reasonable to me that elven forces would have some conventional 'heavy hitters' that use greatswords and armor and so on. They're likely there to screen for the rest of the force or finish the job, but I'm almost certain any smart elven force has some. I would not even bat an eye at an Elf PC that serves in the same sort of 'heavy armor and heavy weaponry' role an equivalent Human or Dwarf Fighter does.
That they're presumed to be elitist, haughty isolationists is... well, sometimes backed by fluff. Elven nations in a lot of fiction settings are definitely this. Yet as many have already pointed out, PCs are spectacular. They are the exceptions, the trend-buckers. Go with that.
You will find, even in the real world, people who actively reject culture-based identity or intentionally do the exact opposite of a stereotype. Such an elf might be open and insightful, and be sympathetic to shorter-lived races urges to go solve the problem right now because waiting a few months is significant to non-elves. They might even decide that elven ideals only really apply when you're in the happy shiny forest nation of elven perfectness... and right now, said elf (and the rest of the party) is not in said happy forest nation; the time to solve the problem at hand is now, and pointy-eared pretentiousness need not apply when one is a gracious guest of a foreign land.
You've outright called your thoughts what they are; racism. This is a funny word to use for a fictional culture/species, but it is apt. Racism lumps people into stereotyped groups. All one has to do is acknowledge one positive outlier from the stereotype, then see that two exist, then three, then so on before realizing that elves are a race that have a lot of potential... it is just squandered on stereotypes, ones often reinforced by RPG sourcebook writers and then further perpetuated by players.
Strange... isn't that a lot like Paladins? Hmm. Perhaps a non-stereotypical Elf who is also a non-negative-stereotypical Paladin would be a fun idea to play some day.
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Alright, what about an elf, that has had no contact with any other elves, or any elf culture?
To do this in Golarion, I will need a obscure location. Maybe the Worldwound?
It doesn't need to be that obscure. Elves are rare almost anywhere in the Inner Sea region at all distant from Kyonin, Varisia, and the Mwangi. The Worldwound and Mendev work, as do The Realm of the Mammoth Lords, Irrisen, Ustalav, Numeria, Brevoy, and Qadira.
Those are what come immediately to mind looking at the map, anyway.
I don't know if it's been brought up yet, but in the Dark Sun campaign setting, elves are radically different than your traditional fantasy ones. They are a nomadic race of peddlers, herders, thieves, etc.
Some of the things that bug me about elves:
The genetic disposition for pretentious. DS elves don't have a genetic disposition to be pretentious. They just have a genetic disposition to be shrewd.The "superior" nature of their arms and goods. All of the city-states in Dark Sun have an "Elven Market" where you can literally buy and sell anything, even other lives. Elven goods aren't necessarily superior, but they are certainly exotic and are highly sought after.
The assumed enlightenment due to longer lives. Elven tribes are far from enlightened, in fact they are often very conservative and introverted. Exceptions exist, of course.
The pedantic nature of elvish tradition. Not true for DS elves. All I'm sayin'.
The common history of racist atrocities and the obvious downplay of their actions. The sorcerer-kings, their templars, slavers, and desert mutants have a much, much, MUCH higher kill count than most elven tribes combined.
The extremely racially exclusive nature of feats, classes and deities. Must be a Galarion thing? Not so much in Dark Sun.
The sexless androgynous nature of their look, feel, and behavior. Again, simply doesn't apply to these elves.
Drow, in general. Drow are extinct on Dark Sun. As are trolls, goblins, orcs, gnomes, mind flayers, lizardfolk, kobolds, and a few more.
The "superior" nature of their "civilized" wars and combat tactics. PFFTFTPPFTTPFTTTTT
Dark Sun in general might be a fresh breath of air for you if you're willing to delve into a desert world where magic is feared and hated, the gods have vanished, civilization is in the grip of ageless, immensely powerful tyrants, and dwarves have no facial hair.
Assuming, of course, that you are not already a fan of Dark Sun. And assuming this hasn't already been brought up in this thread, sorry if it has :v
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Are there good non-spellcaster, non-ranged combat options for Elves?
Urban Barbarian Curveblade specialist leaps immediately to mind. Buy Str 13 for Power Attack, get Weapon Finesse, and jack Dex as high as possible, Rage for more of it and grab an Agile Curveblade and go to town as the highest AC Barbarian ever. Combine with Beast Totem for even more AC and pounce.
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I have never built up an elf PC. What are the pros, cons, and strategies for building non-spellcaster, non-ranged combat elf PCs?
Pros: Dex, basically. Plus skills on par with a Human's (due to the Int bonus). And Elven weapon proficiencies if you want 'em. A racial bonus to Perception.
Cons: Lower than average Con, don't get a bonus Feat like Humans. That's...really about it actually.
Strategies: Do something to take advantage of the Dex, like the build I suggest above or a TWF Fighter, or something. Use a Curveblade if going two-handed melee. It's thematic and a damn good weapon. Silent Hunter is a good alternate racial trait.
Heres a thought:
Elf Fighter or Ranger
Spent 200 years as a soldier, and that made him the coldest bastard under the sun. Does everything incredibly practicaly, and has total lack of empathy. Real sociopath like.
Gets his weapons from whoever makes the best
Fights with a dwarven axe because its tougher and more useful than a rapier
No racism, Elves aren't bettter, I'm better.
let nature save itself, just look out for number one.
Or go for the Curveblade barbarian, its a good build.
You can still give him a hardbitten sociopath bent.
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Hmmm... Stealth rager. Maybe the Coherent Rage trait is a good fit for this.
There's a reason I reccomended Urban Barbarian. :)
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I too have a deep dislike for elves.
The two exceptions to this rule being the Drow (what can I say I like evil elves) and "Wild Elves".
The idea of elves as tribal is awesome to me.
Warpaint, sentient sacrifice, cannibalism, shamanism & druidic societies. (of the old variety, none of this hippy nonsense, the forest gods are angry and must be appeased!)
APPEASE THE FOREST GODS!
Make an elf who every day of conflict tries to capture at least one sentient opponent alive for sacrifice later. Animals don't count, they must pray for mercy for the forest gods to be truly appeased by their blood!