In an upcoming game, my girlfriend and I are playing a pair of half-elf twins who are going to be fighting against a government which rounds up and kills elves. The king fears the innate magical nature of elves, and secretly envies them for it. Many humans share his racism, and so it wasn't hard for him to create an uproar. Draws many parallels with WWII Germany. So, in this, elves aren't the "better than everyone else" race; they are the underdogs. I love a good revenge story, so I jumped on the opportunity to play this character.
Oh, and my character is modeled off this guy. Much less "girly" than other elves you might be familiar with.
Point: Elves can be anything you want them to be. Don't feel restricted by the image of elves you find in LOTR/D&D.
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What? Your last 3 characters weren't female. Wait... was that lizardfolk gentleman actually a gentlewoman? Or was he like... asexual?
Also, playing a female elf you don't have to worry about being sexually ambiguous. Elven women are hotties. Point and case: Arwen. *drool*
The lizardfolk is actually current, and male. I am sorry I made that unclear. Arwen does not suite me, it's a matter of taste.
Journ-O-LST-3: LOL! "You sure do got a purdy maouth!"
BBT: Alright, I think we are done here. I may want to bow out before I say anything I regret. Arwen is played by one of the most attractive women EVAR, Liv Tyler, daughter of the great Steven Tyler of Aerosmith. (a fact that my wife fervently agrees on and she is on both of our "allowed list") The fact that she was made up to be an elf did nothing to make her less attractive, I assure you. To think otherwise is folly. I would seriously doubt the sexuality of any man who did not find her attractive.
...not that there is anything wrong with that!
At least you said she is attractive. We are still cool.
Playing a flawed elf was the best way for me to overcome my hate for elves (for the most part). Playing a half elf assassin got me started. After that I moved to a blind elf mage (with a bat familiar) and finally a one armed bladesinger (these guys were all AD&D rules).
One way I would suggest for you, is to play a elven Samurai, who has pledged their life to a person of another race. Throw in the backstory that the elf had been saved from death by that particular person three times, and now felt that a lifetime of servitude was the only thing that would make them even. Life debts have gone a long way to develop race relations.
Golarion elves I like because for the most part, Paizo has gone out of their way to not make them superior to every other race in every way.
At least you said she is attractive. We are still cool.
Touchy subject it seems...
To blackbloodtroll, I think you're right on all your points on disliking elves. For some the reasons, I like them so we agree on the premises, not the conclusion. Anyway, I have a suggestion.
You could make an elf who actually IS superior, wiser, and all that jazz, but who IS NOT a dick about it nor is he preachy. He (or she, whatever) is the elven paragon, the reason for other's arrogance. Like Jesus, who apparently was the saint of saints, is the reason for Christian arrogance (oh, it's there).
I realize this may not be what you're looking for, but there it is :-)
Personally, I think you are getting too hung up on RP issues with elf (that you have complete control over) and aren't seeing the forest for the trees. Playing an elf only has to come with the elf body. The manerisms, etc. are completely controlled by you.
You don't wanna play a pompus superior elf? Groovy. Don't.
You don't wanna play someone with pointy ears and almond shaped eyes? Groovy. Don't play an elf.
Eberron elves are pretty cool. At least the necromancers are, but I forgot their names.
My main problem with elves used to be that they take forever to get mature: I mean, how retarded you have to be to need a hundred year to get as skilled as a 18 year old human? What the hell did you do for a hundred years? So what of your +2 to int?
While I do love your explanation of Elven ways, I wanted to point out that things had to be this way for the game world to make sense. If elves where adventuring/mature at age 18 like humans, the entire elven population would be level 20. How could you justify them not being the dominante force on the planet? One of Gary Gygax's issues (of the many he had) with 3rd edition D&D is the removal of the level cap on non-humans. In his mind, if you allowed the longer lived races to go to max level, it would no longer be a world dominated by humans. This brought up the problem of, what would a world where humans weren't the dominant race look like?
Hmmmmmm. A community of people living alone in the woods feeling superior to everyone else?
Take it too far and make a "Deliverance" elf. Be a bard. Have a banjo.
I was going to do that for my half ogre bard, Bubba Graul.
With the new flavor for Ogres, how can you not do this?Hmmmmmm. A community of people living alone in the woods feeling superior to everyone else?
Take it too far and make a "Deliverance" elf. Be a bard. Have a banjo.
I was going to do that for my half ogre bard, Bubba Graul.
It was going to be either a banjo or mouth harp :)
If someone has any ideas how to do this, I welcome the advice.
I would like to refer you to my first post in this thread.
Alright, maybe playing an elf that completely lacks the elf flavor is the way to redemption. If someone has any ideas how to do this, I welcome the advice.
Play a mentally ill elf?
Or a really, really stupid one.Or a complete nerd (crafter, perhaps) who is frowned upon by his peers, but he never noticed.
There are so many (valid, even) ways to do what you suggest, I wonder why you don't just go ahead and do it...
I suppose it's the expectations that trip me up the most. It is weird, but I noticed that expectations for elves, are pretty deeply set. This is just not from one set of fellow players, or DM, or setting. It is all over the place.
so... you are playing for your own enjoyment or for the fullfilment of other peopple's expectations ? Just asking.....
That being said : each settings elves are different, and usually have moved far beyond the late eighties "enlightened hippies" stereotype propgated by 1st and 2nd Ed (A)DnD and the late Mr Gygax. And as Enshrined in the forgotten realms by Mr.Greenwood.
BUT... who the heck said they got Elves right, anyway ?
Dark Sun had nomadic, trickster elves (rather like desert gypsies )
Eberron had ancestor worshipping, ex-slave race Elves with a chip on their should and a tendency for necromancy.
Golarion has the Forlorn and very fey, otherworldly Elves, who are literally aliens to Golarion in the first place. Since they are also physically larger and more commanding than humans... not so effemnate, right ? Then there also the grim and obsessed Elves of the Mordant Spire, who basically could teach paladin stuff about dedication and lack of humour.
Each and every of these concepts is valid and thrills me far more than the "hrbal-remedy-native-fey" archetype espoused by the forefathers of DnD. Actually, I think they left massive room for improvement and more interesting concepts.
An elf is only as stereotypical as you allow him/her to be. I have the nagging suspicion, looking at your eccelctic list of previous characters, that a "classic" elf seems to bland, too established and not inherently bad-ass enough to you.Emphasis on "seems....to you"
Which basically is a mental trap which you seem unwilling to step out of.
Some of the recent Elf in our campaigns :
- Elf Barbarian Bedou/desert-rider concept in northern Garundi/Golarion. Wild, furious, very individualistic and not all all refined (none of her tribe were, as the group found out^^) Was about as spiritual and tree-worshipping as your average Camel-hump.
- Forlon female Elf Barmaid in Korvosa. Seriously suicidical, doomed not to die by her own hand. Very depressed, very nihilistic geat fun to be around. Gloomy as they come. Part-time poisoner, part-time charity worker... often at the same time...
- elf cartographer and strategic politician. Loved "aggressive negotiation", strong drinks and throwing coconuts after his fellow player. great proponent of "assertive actions" and not waiting for anything.Later "best buddy" of a local evil demi-god (of sorts). Collected "hunted and stuffed" Dinosaur wildlife.
- Elf Bard (Spy), who specialised in infiltrating secret societies and popular movements "for the experience of not being elven" and pruned them of "dangerous elements" for the greater good. Considered himself as a social gardener. Found himself in command of a mutinous man-o-war out of Cheliax by accident and aimed to becoem a notorious pirate. The campaign is still running. Oh and his/her sex is at current unknown/undetermined....
That's just from the last four years and around here. Too stereotypical, any of these ? Treehuggers anyone ?
Alright, maybe playing an elf that completely lacks the elf flavor is the way to redemption. If someone has any ideas how to do this, I welcome the advice.
See my above post.
basic advice : develop a compelling concept first, then try to find out if it fits with the race and established mechanisms of how the world ticks (elf in this case). Always check if it fits the tone and grit of the group and the planned/running campaign.
Look at a profession (not a class), than elaborate from there.
As the last thing : "add elf", sand it down, prime it and have a blast.
I think I might also break my elven racism soon, by playing one AS an ignorant pompous ass, and embracing my elf hate.
I love elves and I play most of mine as Pompus asses. Not ignorant though.
Just to repeat, I want to rid myself of my distaste of elves. Okay, moving on. I am slowly forming a primordial ooze of concepts, thanks to helpful posters. Additional concept ideas are welcome. What classes do elves succeed well in?
They are supposedly the best dex-magus (magi, whatever).
I guess they make strong archers and wizards as well. This is known..
Their bonus to dex and their inherent weapon prof make them good rogues.
I like playing elves, personally. But, on the other hand, my elves aren't bound by any 'cultural template' that others might be. Usually they're enthusiastic, ecstatic to get out of their home society, and inwardly shocked at how fast everything moves. Back home she might take a full decade going over different plans for a house and then finally choosing a design for it, then waiting another decade for it to be built. There's no rush, after all. My rangers don't think they're better than the forest, they love the forest. They protect and cherish nature, respecting it with a fervor that is rarely seen among humans. My elves hate getting too close to shorter lived races, because they know that the other races will die before them. Yet they do it anyway, because they can't help but admire the vigor with which the other races live their lives. Elves just don't have the sheer, dynamic vigor of the other races.
The key, in my opinion, is to create a character that fits into elven society without feeling bound by elven society. It isn't like every elf is forced into a specific template, but...on the other hand, imagine elves as a near-endless chain of only children. Generally, very few elves will grow up with other young elves. So, like some children in such situations, they may grow up to be spoiled brats. Or they might just be lonely. Or they might even have found a group of fey to play with, at which point everyone else should run for cover, when an elf becomes an eternal prankster.
elves: all int casters: wizard and witches especially, alchemists too (even though humans might be better), they aren't bad for everything dex like rogue/ninjas.
Another idea, you want to play an elf without the culture:
have his backstory to be a (another race) that died and got reincarnated into an elf. Perhaps flesh it out a little bit more.
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I think everybody is kind of missing the point here. BBT wants to play an elf to get over his elf hate yet every suggestion has been along the lines of "Play an elf that is not an elf." Play a forlorn elf or an elf that has been raised by orcs or similar.
Now don't get me wrong, those are perfectly valid choices for character concepts and I'm sure you could have a blast playing them but they are not elf concepts they are anti-elf concepts.
The thing that annoys people about elves is the haughty attitude, the superiority complex and the idea that everything made or done by an elf is better. Basically the current meme for elves is "elves as colossal Richards" similar to how Vulcans were presented in Enterprise. Second Darkness is a good example of this trend.
So how do you get round this? Simple, play Legolas. Now I don't mean a bow wielding Ranger (unless that's your concept). No the trick is to play the elf as a genuinely pleasant, honourable, kind and noble character. Quick to defend his friends and allies and not considering himself superior to any other race or person. Have him fascinated by the other races, complement the barman on his excellent brew, ask about the religion of the cleric with genuine interest and help those in need.
An elf doesn't have to be a Richard. They can be really nice too.
Forlorn would be the best bet. It gives an out that let's you enjoy being an Elf with the attitude of pretty much any other race.
My personal grief with Elves are flavor-based but mechanical in nature. The two just don't add up and you alluded to it, blackbloodtroll. Read Elves of Golarion and then read through the racial stat block in the CRB. The two don't add up compared to the other races. Sure, they get a bonus to overcome spell resistance and this is cool for casters, but according to EoG, Elves, as a race, are *actually* superior to almost everyone else mentally and physically. They just have low birth rates. But, I'll be damned if their stat block actually docs them on constitution and does nothing for warrior or skill type characters while EoG makes references to things such as a single Elf being equal to 10 humans. The APG gives you the option to sneak to your full movement without penalty but that a pittance compared to their fluff. By all rights, Elves *should* be one of those "more powerful so let everyone else start at level 2 or 3" races. I guess the guys at Paizo just didn't have the heart to take Elves out of the core list of races.
Simple, play Legolas. Now I don't mean a bow wielding Ranger (unless that's your concept). No the trick is to play the elf as a genuinely pleasant, honourable, kind and noble character. Quick to defend his friends and allies and not considering himself superior to any other race or person.
Legolas is none of those things, at least as far as Gimli is concerned. Not at the beginning of the story anyway. It takes time for him to get over the mutual dislike that he and the elf have for each other.
That they do eventually become great friends is something that is conveniently forgotten in the realm of RPGs. Characters can change and evolve, if their players want them to.
So how do you get round this? Simple, play Legolas. Now I don't mean a bow wielding Ranger (unless that's your concept).
Nah Logolas was a pre-nerf Zen Archer... Don't look at me like that he was, and Gandolf was a Druid not a Wizard.
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Simple, play Legolas. Now I don't mean a bow wielding Ranger (unless that's your concept). No the trick is to play the elf as a genuinely pleasant, honourable, kind and noble character. Quick to defend his friends and allies and not considering himself superior to any other race or person.Legolas is none of those things, at least as far as Gimli is concerned. Not at the beginning of the story anyway. It takes time for him to get over the mutual dislike that he and Gimli have for each other.
That they do eventually become great friends is something that is conveniently forgotten in the realm of RPGs. Characters can change and evolve, if their players want them to.
My point stands.
So how do you get round this? Simple, play Legolas. Now I don't mean a bow wielding Ranger (unless that's your concept).Nah Logolas was a pre-nerf Zen Archer... Don't look at me like that he was, and Gandolf was a Druid not a Wizard.
What did Gandolf do that was particularly Druidic?
/ Tolkien magic is simply not the same as D&D/PF magic.
Some of the things that bug me about elves:...
Drow, in general.
Well, I can't blame you. They are played out and over the top and eventually became victims of massive fan service. In essence, to me, they are to 90s role-playing what tieflings have been for 3.0 onward.
/shudder
Actually Gandalf was an Invoker. :)So how do you get round this? Simple, play Legolas. Now I don't mean a bow wielding Ranger (unless that's your concept).Nah Logolas was a pre-nerf Zen Archer... Don't look at me like that he was, and Gandolf was a Druid not a Wizard.What did Gandolf do that was particularly Druidic?
/ Tolkien magic is simply not the same as D&D/PF magic.
In some circles, Gandalf is seen as a pseudo-Christ figure. I used to dismiss that out of hand, but now I see where the comparisons can be made. Upon further thought, given Tolkien's friendship with C.S. Lewis, it really comes as no surprise.
Back to Elves - they don't have to be jerks, but Second Darkness went a long way towards establishing them as just that (in terms of Golarion, of course).
You don't need to play the stereotype that makes you hate elves. You can still play a character with a personality, just play it the way you think an elf would be that person.
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Some of the things that bug me about elves:...
Drow, in general.Well, I can't blame you. They are played out and over the top and eventually became victims of massive fan service. In essence, to me, they are to 90s role-playing what tieflings have been for 3.0 onward.
/shudder
Actually, I like tieflings. I have the Blood of Fiends book. The fact that they can come from, more or less, any of the core races, just adds to versatility of tiefling characters.
He talked to every animal that came his way. How did he get away from Saruman? Talked to a bug. How did he save the day a couple of times? Talked to eagles*. Who were his friends? Hobbits.
Seriously though, all of the Maiar have close ties to Celtic Druid traditions.
*Yeah, yeah we know it was Radagast, but we didn't know that in The Hobbit
One of my most favorite characters was Draylen, the elven gunslinger that hated other elves. he thought they used "f!*~@&y" magic (not trying to offend. it was the character). I evem helped a party member out in game. He was illiterate and was trying to find a saloon to beat up this guy to get a favor from someone. i took him to the place and i shouted for the guys name. when he stood up and i saw he was an elf i said "good." then shot him dead. paid the bartender and left.
draylen did have a superiority complex but thats taking one aspect of the quentissential elves and taking it to the extreme.
He talked to every animal that came his way. How did he get away from Saruman? Talked to a bug. How did he save the day a couple of times? Talked to eagles*. Who were his friends? Hobbits.
Gandalf treated the Giant Eagles like they were a sentient race, which, come to think of it, they were! As for the bug and the Tower of Orthanc, he used it to send a message to Radagast (I believe, haven't read LoTR in a year or two).
Neither of these actions speak to any sort of Druidic proclivity.