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I know there are some people who say "Paizo Only", or "Anything by Company X", or "Anything in these books (list)", or "Paizo + Case-by-case", or even "Case by Case, for all options."
So. If you allow non-paizo stuff; what specifically have you allowed in your games that you really liked?
In this case I'm counting 3.5 materials as viable 3PP.
Anything specific you like having in your games that you let your players have access to? If its homebrew, how about a link or explanation?
I'm particularly interested in feats, spells, items, and enchantments.
I like the Genius Guide to Templars, off the top of my head;
And the Acquire Familiar feat from one of the two main 3.5 mage books. Dunno if there's a pathfinder parallel yet.
I use a (slightly altered) weapon proficiency system from Unearthed Arcana, instead of the default one.
Add in a homebrew weapon proficiencies by BAB, for additional weapons, and you get the basic system there.
Sometimes I reverse engineer stuff from parallels in Pathfinder, and make new rules from that. frex - I've inferred that toughness is a feat, its also the favored class bonus as a whole. Therefore I consider favored class bonuses equivalent to feats, and often allow them as such. 1 weapon proficiency every 4 levels is worth a feat. +1 skill point per level? also worth a feat.
So what specific non-paizo options do you guys allow in your games, that you thought made your games better, or at least didn't regret?
Oh: I also use the firearms from an old mongoose book called OGL Steampunk, instead of the paizo ones, which I dislike for a variety of reasons.
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Hmm. Alright.
So you do anything paizo, plus select other books.
I suppose its good to know that you're satisfied with those books. Anything in them that was particularly good?
Anyone else have individual options they like to allow, from any source?
OH!
Houndmaster Cavalier, from RPG superstar. Absolutely fantastic.
I've never been particularly impressed with third party work, now or in the old days. There are books that I used to like to mine for mechanics ideas, mostly Steampunk stuff. The old Iron Kingdoms stuff (IK Character Guide and Liber Mechanika), and Sorcery and Steam from Legends and Lairs had good concepts. However, I never ported anything over to 3.5 whole, or without tinkering with it. It always struck me as being overwrought and not well playtested. So I would borrow the concepts, but tool them to be better balanced.
One of the reasons I so love the Pathfinder splats is that they cover this same territory so much better. Better balance, better playtesting, better mechanics, all translate to less work for me. Making me very happy.
That said, if you count 3.5 as third party from a PF standpoint, then I am quite guilty in that regard. I still allow use of feats from the Complete books and spells from the Spell Compendium, and though we haven't had psionics come up yet, I will be happy enough to use Expanded Psionics Handbook if they ever do. I also consult with Deities & Demigods, even though it's from all the way back in 3.0. I like to use gods from real myth, so that remains a handy tome for me.
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I dont use the whole book.
Its basically a 3.0 steampunk D&D game with AC by level, and classes with archetypes before anyone else had such a concept. Unlike with Paizo there was no assumed archetype, so every class basically had sub-classes, and you picked one.
It was a decent book back in the day.
Now I only use the firearm rules. They were pretty decent, and simple. They were reasonably effective weapons, and the pricing was reasonable. IIRC they were Martial weapons. There was a decent misfire table. I believe I simplified it down last time I ran a game.
I basically just bring a photocopy of the pages with the firearm rules, and a copy of the purchase DC-gp conversion table. It's like 4 pages of the book.
I think there were a handful of good feats in there too.
There were some other bits I liked that might make good inspiration in a steampunk pathfinder game, if designing a new option, but for the most part I'd stick to the pathfinder mechanics (excising the pathfinder firearm rules and everything attached to them, and using the OGL steampunk ones instead).
Anything a PC brings to the table. I am a kitchen sink kind of guy, I may balance it during play but my players are used to that, and they are open to making changes to their character based on changes I make.
I always say yes, because while you don't control PC actions you do control the outcome of those actions.
In addition, I am always looking for new monsters my players have never encountered as one player has memorized the various monster books.
some base classes and feats from 3.5 like the factotum and bo9s feats, Kolbod Q.mag,and my home brew/ the stuff people wright about on this forms(like super star archtypes. hound master was every good)
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Heh.
Maybe I won't get many of them, but I was hoping for more specific suggestions as to "This 3pp/3.x/3.x3pp/homebrew option from book or webpage X is really cool and worth using!"
Less than a general "Some 3pp stuff is worth using".
I'm intrigued to see the Factotum surface again, been a long time since I looked at that one. Is it really worth porting to PFRPG?
I allow just about everything, provided I can find a logical niche in the campaign setting for it. Hence I'm not stingy with classes, feats etc., but new races tend to have it harder to get my approval. Generally, though, I always try to say "yes" to my players and then let them come up with ideas on how specifics work out within the context they envisioned.
Most prominent in my games:
Players use a lot:
Rite Publishing
Dreamscarred press
Super Genius Games
Open Design/KQ
I use a lot more (I own at least a couple books from just about every 3pp...), especially Raging Swan's GM-helpers deserve a mention here and should be considered a true boon!
And I'm still grateful that the overall quality of PFRPG 3pps is not only higher than in 3.5, but imho also beats the quality of many of WotC's later releases - I still shudder when thinking about components of the complete-series.
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And I'm still grateful that the overall quality of PFRPG 3pps is not only higher than in 3.5, but imho also beats the quality of many of WotC's later releases - I still shudder when thinking about components of the complete-series.
Complete Mage and Complete Arcane weren't too bad. Complete Scoundrel had some gems too. But yeah. WotC did release alot of complete garbage.
Right now for my upcoming campaign I'm planning on allowing players to use anything Paizo-published with the caveat that it has to suit the country where the campaign is taking place so some exotic races/gear/traits are going to be harder to explain.
I personally use Paizo materials + Tome of Horrors Complete & would use Green Ronin Advanced Bestiary if I found a template I wanted to employ, since Paizo have themselves used Green Ronin Advanced Bestiary even in their Pathfinder RPG books. The templates in the Green Ronin Advanced Bestiary are kind of all-over-the-place though, so I'd still be very picky what I use out of it.
If my players have some 3PP material they'd like to employ, I'd ask that they approach me about it on a case-by-case basis. This also goes for 3.5e material, but I'm more inclined to disallow 3.5e material than allow it, with the possible exception of spells.
Heh.
Maybe I won't get many of them, but I was hoping for more specific suggestions as to "This 3pp/3.x/3.x3pp/homebrew option from book or webpage X is really cool and worth using!"
Less than a general "Some 3pp stuff is worth using".
I'm intrigued to see the Factotum surface again, been a long time since I looked at that one. Is it really worth porting to PFRPG?
the factotum was done up by a guy that now is a pfrpg writer and it plays well in pathfinder
I allow the Core Rulebook, and one player companion per PC.
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Most Rite and SGG is allowed sight unseen. No 3.5,and UC on a case-by-case basis.
Personal favorites are SGG's Rune Staves and Wyrd Wands, Rite's Luckbringer, my own Secrets of Forgotten Magic Items, SGG's Shadow Assassin, Rite's Divine Channeler, lots of stuff from KQ, SGG's War Master, and JBE's Book of River Nations.
I go with...
All Piazo (I may say no to a "to good" combo to keep balance)
Most Pathfinder 3pp (Just ask and 99% of the time its a "Yes")
NO 3.5
Really, NO 3.5
any reason that you all say no to 3.5?
in my group I am the only one who has books so what i allow has a lot to do with how much I want to carry (side note 3.5 books have a crappy weight vs. usable stuff ratio )
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I'm about as likely to allow something from 3.5 as from the APG.
any reason that you all say no to 3.5?
in my group I am the only one who has books so what i allow has a lot to do with how much I want to carry (side note 3.5 books have a crappy weight vs. usable stuff ratio )
Sure.
The problem is not with 75% of the rules.
The issue is with the other 25.
I have found that saying yes to one part of 3.5 leads to a flurry of questions about (among others) Shock trooper, Ur-Priest, Divine meta-magic, Incantrix, Sanctum Spell, Etc.....
Frankly there is simply too much broken stuff and I get tired of saying no.
Pathfinder at this point has plenty to cover nearly any character you want to make.
I have never to this point had a person ask about 3.5 stuff to aid RP. it is always a more powerful mechanic.
If I were to run PF, my players could ask for anything, PF or 3.5. They might not get it, but PF is backwards compatible for a reason.
Bold Mine.
Yes, I would say it is backward compatable so it would sell when it came out.
People played 3.5 and wanted to keep playing 3.5
A "New" system sadly would not sell.
They (Paizo) needed it to be backward compatable so they could market it that way.
Some of the Devs have come out and said that they wish they could have changed more but they had to make it compatable.
As Pathfinder has grown, it has gotten a following for IT, not for 3.5, but for PATHFINDER.
At this point there is enough Pathfinder stuff that you don't need 3.5 matterial.
3.5 had some really bad mechanics, I for one am happy to leave them in the past.
YMMV.
I personally allow anything on a case by case basis. Basically anything outside of the core rules (including paizo material) is case by case.
That said I am not overly stringent, mostly I just want to see it before it goes into the game. I want to know what my players are capable of so I can be at least somewhat prepared for it. Even if I just allowed all paizo hardbacks, I cant be prepared for every possible combination of abilities. But if a player has to me first with anything non-core I can review it and understand it before it gets used at the table.
I still use some 3.5 material, including a few of my favorite spells from the spell compendium (the transposition spells were a personal favorite) and a few items out of the magic items compendium, and skill tricks from complete scoundrel. I also use a ton of 3rd party pathfinder material from Super Genius Games, Dreamscared Press, Rite Publishing, Four Winds, and Frog God Games.
stuff
(thinking of BoVD ur-priest)
mmm ya I see your point. hell i could deal with some crazed muchkens if it meat some in my group would crack a book any other time then on game day
I'm a kitchen sink guy myself and will generally allow just about anything. In my most recent PF game it was anything Paizo, and anything Super Genius (duh! :>) as the default. One player wanted a feat from Wayfinder which I allowed, and other player had some Rite material as well.
I generally run games where the PCs are on the overpowered side anyway: 5d6 - keep 3 for stats is my default, roll HP twice keep the highest result when you level, and my rule of thumb is the PCs gain a level everything 3-4 sessions.
Paizo only - case-by-case (such as antagonize or munchkin concepts)
At the beginning of my current campaign (my first PF one), I asked allowed anything by Super Genius Games, Open Design, and the 3.5 books, modified if we needed to.
I've now learned the error of my ways. When this campaign wraps up (soon, I hope, as I'm getting bored with it), the only D&D 3.5 book allowed is the Tome of Battle. As for the 3PP, if it's on the d20pfsrd site it's allowed, otherwise restricted to SGG and OD. I will probably not allow the Dragonrider or the Godling classes, though. Dragons in my campaign come in one flavor: evil, hellfire and brimstone belching atrocities that need to be eliminated at any cost. And as demonstrated by one of my optimizer players, Godlings are just off the scale when it comes to level equivalency with other classes (IMHO).
I allow CRB, APG, UC, and UM materiel from Paizo as well as Psionics Unleashed and parts of Grit and Gunslingers. I allow 3.5 supplements and homebrew on a case by case basis.
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I allow all paizo (with a very few specific exceptions, like the Antagonize feat), all SGG (with no exceptions -- the rules are BETTER balanced than paizo!), most Jon Brazer Ent., and some Open Design, Rite Publishing, and 4 winds Gaming. I'll consider anything though most 3.5 WotC material is now out, and all 3.5 3pp is out -- they just end up being too different to integrate smoothly.
I'm particularly a big fan of SGG's godlings (which dont play as at *all* overpowered in my games), armiger, time thief, time warden, witch hunter and their archetype books, and Feats of Subterfuge. And Rite's monsters-as-classes books have been very useful.
And Spiritual Weapon Feats, which may edge out Time Thief in my mind as best Pathfinder 3pp product ever, though it's a bit early to day that.
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My players are easy, they all own the core rulebook and that's it! I mostly GM so those are the products I tend to by but I have a few player option books that I like and make available to the players.
JBE's Kingdom of the River Nations- must have for Kingmaker. Lots of new options and buying the print/pdf bundle makes things easier on the GM and players.
4 Winds Gaming's Luven's Lightfinger Guide- I like the slicer beetles, the nasty Tome of Horrors ones that can cut off arms and legs on critical unlike the nicer Paizo ones (bleed damage). Luven's guide ensures my players can get all the prosthetic replacements they need!
I'm a patron of "It Came from the Stars" by Zombie Sky Press and we're working on some really cool stuff for both players and GMs.
Im also a kitchen sink kind of guy. Core, 3rd Party, 3.5, Homebrew... pretty much anything I have a chance to look over and aprove.
My players understand I would rather say yes, as long as they know that if it turns out to be a balace issue I have the right to change or take away.
And I have no problem saying NO if its needed. So far it works but Im what you might call a pushover... as long as everyone is having fun I dont sweat the small stuff.
We're crazy just about anything goes. As long as there isn't a pathfinderized version of it and it's not absolute nonsense we allow it.
I've seen other GMs allow 3.5 material in Pathfinder and then regret every minute they did so. Mixing 3.5 and Pathfinder are a BAD idea in my opinion.
I strictly forbid anything not Paizo Pathfinder sources. And to go even further, I don't allow any Golarion/Inner Sea books either. Setting Neutral only for me.
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So. If you allow non-paizo stuff; what specifically have you allowed in your games that you really liked?In this case I'm counting 3.5 materials as viable 3PP.
Anything specific you like having in your games that you let your players have access to?
Pretty much all 3.5 stuff we allow in our game. Fighters, in particular, benefit greatly from PHB2 feats. I think Short Haft is a feat that *really* needs to be recreated in Pathfinder. My Ranger is currently rocking the Zen Archery feat from Complete Warrior and has his Wis pumped over 20.
Since it's a Greyhawk game, we use Greyhawk regional feats from Dragon Magazine.
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For players I allow everything Paizo and everything Open Design sight unseen, as well as the Soulknife by DSP. They just have to point me at the appropriate page in the appropriate book. I insist that all players have printouts of the feats, skill etc. they are using. If they do not have the full description in their character portfolios, they can not use it.
Other things I may allow on case to case basis. For instance, one PC died and the player wants to roll-up a Warforged PC. I will modify Warforged from Eberron, using some stuff from the Ironborn of Questhaven book.
Last time I GMed, I allowed core book plus options fro APG on request. No other books. A couple of feats from 3.5 were added into the house rules. Some UM things were present as NPC only or could be discovered and used by the players, but only that which I put in the world for them to find. Nothing else was allowed at the time.
I have never liked third party material. I'm barely satisfied with core material but it's hard to play a game without it. To add to that, I have a low opinion of my own 3rd party material but I won't complain if others enjoy it.
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Anything is possible. What I tend to do, is each time i run. I try to make each campaign feel different than the previous ones. So I allow or disallow different things that I feel fit the theme/mood etc of the campaign. So just about any 3pp Pathfinder stuff has or will likely be used in my games at some point.
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Hmm. Interesting set of responses. Gives me a general trend, and I got a handful of individual suggestions as to what to bring to game and allow.
Obviously on the GM side anything goes. I can clearly use a monster from any source. It's which options are allowed for the players that is the concerning part.
Personally I have a ban on Paizo Paladins and Gunslingers.
I have houserules, and I allow some 3.5 feats. If I'm not using a large portion of a book, I try to only bring the part I need. I'll copy the feat into a word document and name the source. These things build up over time, giving me a collection of options I decided were acceptable.
If I run a Forgotten Realms Game, I try to allow all of the Forgotten Realms Options I can. Some are overpowered, but luckily for me, my players aren't minmaxxy enough to seek it out from the veritable mountain of D&D 3.x FR stuff, which they dont have in searchable pdf form, just my hardcopies.
I look for new enchantments and magic gear all over the place.
I havent had alot of experience with players and PF3PP materials, but I as a GM have used them and enjoyed them.
I've run into a couple players who act like if something isnt on d20pfsrd it doesnt exist. That has been frustrating when they start to argue that option X I said was allowed at the start of the game shouldnt be allowed for NPC use because they didnt want to be bothered to remember it was a possibility in the game. To Hell with that. lol.
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Alright. Lets try to redirect this thread a bit more in the direction I was hoping for:
What are some more specific examples of 3pp or 3.x you enjoyed seeing in your PF Games, or that your players enjoyed alot that didnt cause you headaches of game balance?
I'll allow almost anything at any game I run provided the player makes it available to me beforehand and either brings it to every game or sends me a copy of it on PDF, in fact the only thing I don't allow is any type of psionics or the book of 9 swords
I'll allow almost anything at any game I run provided the player makes it available to me beforehand and either brings it to every game or sends me a copy of it on PDF, in fact the only thing I don't allow is any type of psionics or the book of 9 swords
This, with the exception that I allow Psionics and BO9S.
Adventuring Classes: A Fistful of Denarii is one PF book I'd like a shot at. Too bad a lot of people balk at full BAB/full SA classes. :/
I bought the book awhile ago on your recommendation, and while I think full BAB / full SA is a big No-No, the Scout is the first non-magical class that I've actually wanted to play.
Also, if you know where the quote about those books being non-magical only to lessen the gap between casters and non-magic users are, lemme know.
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Adventuring Classes: A Fistful of Denarii is one PF book I'd like a shot at. Too bad a lot of people balk at full BAB/full SA classes. :/I bought the book awhile ago on your recommendation, and while I think full BAB / full SA is a big No-No, the Scout is the first non-magical class that I've actually wanted to play.
Also, if you know where the quote about those books being non-magical only to lessen the gap between casters and non-magic users are, lemme know.
If I find it, I'll be sure to pass it on. But I must say, you have excellent taste! The 3.5 Scout was a favorite of mine, and the AC Scout looks like an excellent revisiting of it. :)