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I totally disagree with this. I don't want the archetype better at anything than the base class. Cuter maybe, but not better. I hate screwing around with crunch and I don't want to effectively take a penalty just because I don't feel like reading splat books.
You're not taking a penalty if the archetype/PrC is only geared toward one niche- overall, your vanilla choice is better overall.
And even if you hate screwing around with crunch, why force the crunch-focused players to be satisfied with less options? Unless the CR system is rebalanced due to new stuff, you're not taking a penalty.
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A few thoughts
Why the developers have done what they did.
I can think of three possible reasons. I can't say for sure that I am right, and I am sure I am wrong at least a little. I am not a Paizo employee, just someone who has read a great deal of what they have said.
1- Their philosophy is that prestige classes should mostly be campaign based, should represent special training, and should cover something that a class archetype can't. This makes sense because the name has the word "Prestige" in it, and that suggests that not just anyone should be able to take class levels. The idea that a prestige class represents an organization best fits the name and original concept of the classes, as they were intended to be something special that represented not just how you built your character but some course of action or special training that your character went through. It was somewhat expected that the GMs and players would work together to offer some special and in game reason for taking the class, such as joining an organization. Paizo is just following that original philosophy.
As for covering something an archetype can't, just look at how many archetypes have replaced much of the prestige classes from previous editions. While most are not nearly as powerful as the classes they replace, they still allow the player to use those base concepts with their character.
2- Paizo is cautious about everything they publish. They are a company of gamers that listens to the gamers, and produces products that they know gamers will not just want but will use. They take their time deciding if they want to put the time and energy into a product because they are small, and because they do not want to repeat the mistakes of the past. They haven't produced a great deal of prestige classes because they have reason to believe that isn't the best use of their limited time and resources. The small book that is being put out is probably a test to see if in fact a larger book will sell and be used, as well as a way to present proper prestige classes for organizations in their campaign world.
3- They feel that there is less of a need of them because of the changes to the core classes, the addition of the base classes, and the implementation of the archetype system. Now, you can actually play a fighter from 1st to 20th level and not feel like you are being cheated. They have made it not just more viable but also more attractive to play a single class all the way through your game. In my experience with 3.5, people played the game expecting to multi-class. You would ask what they were playing and the response involved two base classes and one prestige class. In Pathfinder, I have seen one person multi-class. They made an eldritch knight and they ended up rebuilding him as a magus and enjoying the character more afterwards. They basically have removed the need to multi-class and now people only do it because they want to.
With the changes in the rules, the shift in how people build characters, and the removal of the need to multi-class, prestige classes just are not a major part of the game anymore, and thus something that Paizo can take their time on deciding how to handle them.
Prestige Classes Need a New Name
Lets face it. The name really does not represent what most players expect from a prestige class. The original concept was for a special path that a character would go down, one that they worked hard to move onto and one that represented something unique. That isn't what prestige classes turned into. They turned into something that people expected you do, something that everyone did, and something that was easy to do. Only a few of them really represented either an organization or that special path, and few GMs really enforced the requirements in the ones that really were prestigious.
So what happens when Paizo does it right the first time? What happens when the focus on character concept shifts from what classes you will take to class you are going to play? In Pathfinder you don't need to take a prestige class for almost any character concept because even without archetypes you can customize your character in ways 3.5 characters only dreamed about. What to focus on sneak attack? Pick the rogue talents that best fit your idea. Want to slowly become a dragon, angel, or devil? Sorcerer bloodlines. Want to break stuff like crazy while raging? Barbarian rage powers will let you do that. Very few characters concepts need prestige classes.
What are those character concepts?
There are three types of character concepts that need prestige classes, and only one of them really represents the name and original concept exactly. The first is the campaign organization concept. This is a prestige class that a character went on a quest to obtain and is the type that is truly prestigious. The second concept is the blending of two base classes. The rage prophet is a great example of this. The third is the overly bizarre concept that just can't be done with a base class. The shadowdancer is almost like this, but to be honest I am not sure there is Pathfinder example for this type.
Paizo is releasing a book on just campaign and organization specific prestige classes, and most of the prestige classes they have already released cover the first type. This type is also something that the players could be rewarded with in game, or at the very least they could be rewarded access to the class. With these classes the need isn't for mechanics but for flavor. The character belongs to an organization, they know secrets, they are special, and that is what is really important about these types of prestige classes.
The second type hasn't really been given much love. We have several of them, but there could be more, especially now that we have even more base classes. These classes marry two classes into one, allowing you to enjoy the benefits of both classes without feeling like you are being left behind. These classes often have unique abilities as well, like imbuing arrows with magical power, mixing divine and arcane energies, or dealing sneak attack damage with any spell that does damage. These types are needed because someone wanted to multi-class but didn't want to feel like they were losing anything by doing so.
The third type, the bizarre concept, is rare and often done by overly imaginative or very green players. They want to be able to do something that just isn't covered by any class, nor could it be. Like I said before, the shadowdancer is the closest to this idea then any other in pathfinder. They can jump into shadows and teleport, they can summon shadows to do their bidding, and they can shape shadows to their will. The requirements could easily be completed by a single class rogue, so this isn't like the second type, and while the class does have the feel for the first type, there isn't anything tying it to an organization. We could also use more of these, but only a few more because they could tend to be overpowered.
In conclusion, while not needed anymore, prestige classes can still have a niche in the game and there are still players out there with concepts that need them. However, it may fall upon third party publishers to fill this niche as Paizo does seem to want to focus somewhere else.
I really hope they keep prestige classes to a minimum. Archetypes seem like a much better fit, and I like the focus they put on base classes, as opposed to people looking at them as a stepping stone to their OP prestige class.
I also feel prestige classes trivialize the base classes, as it just becomes looking at what class gets you to your prestige class fastest. WHereas archetypes compliment the base classes by giving them alternate abilities that only that class can do.
The one thing I would like to see focused on for archetypes is more overlay. Archetype rules permit you to take multiple archetypes as long as they give up different base class abilities, but not many classes have archetypes to allow them to do that.
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The problem here is that class features are not equal: it is almost impossible to design a class feature which is completely equal to another, so if you have a whole load of alternate class features then people hunt down the good ones with a great deal of synergy and use them to create overpowered monstrosities which they bring to your PFS table and use to overshadow everyone else.
Archetypes prevent synergy hunting.
Also, your Empyreal Knight criticism is too narrow.
You actually, over two levels, exchange divine grace + mercy for voice of the spheres and celestial heart: otherwise you either get celestial heart too early or you can't have it (because combining celestial heart and divine grace would be too much).
...It's not considerably different in power but it is different.
Alternate Class Features actually means: A few weeks after release the synergies are pinned down on internet lists and there is a new definition of the 'standard' class.
The problem is thinking that archetypes vs. alt. class features is an either/or thing. I'm in favor of both, I think archetypes do have a place and are useful when the idea requires several changes from the base class in order to realize the vision. Check out my attempt at a Bounty Hunter archetype for ranger. I change a LOT of class features, but they're all for a reason, to fit the concept and make his basic "hunt things down and take 'em into custody" thing work well. That's what an archetype should be used for. But, the devs seem to see archetypes as the ONLY way to create variance, and while there are a few few wonderful exceptions (like Elemental Kin barb, which touches nothing at but trap sense), most archetypes seem, IMO, to at times layer on additional changes that aren't needed. Whether it's because the vev felt awkward calling what should have been a simple alt. class feature an archetype or as a means of (poorly) balancing a swap he considered unbalanced by changing other things later.
Use both, that's what I'm asking. Don't you agree there are numerous archetype features that could have been handled better as stand alone alternate class features?
And archetypes introduce power creep, too. Master Summoner is basically just a better summoner. Wizard technically doesn't have only "one correct true path"...they have a few. Foresight, Teleportation, maybe Void... Does being so incredibly awesome that you have several paths plainly better than any of the core options make it ok? ACFs are easier to balance and tweak if they're found later to be out of line -- they're just a one-for-one (or sometimes 2-for-2) trade. It's a lot less messy to judge balance of those than for an archetype with 5 changes over 15 levels of play or whatever.
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Prestige classes don't cause power creep, power creep causes power creep.Truer words cannot be spoken.
I disagree with your premise, Ashiel:
"One equals one."
/threadjack
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I don't want PrCs to be uber. I just want them to be balanced with core classes instead of intentionally suboptimal. All PrCs curb save progressions to accurately model hat a 20th level base class would get, or whatever. But any non-full BAB one still starts at 0. You'd think if accurate modelling were the main concern, and not kicking a PrC in the junk at every possible opportunity, the medium BAB ones would start at +1 to more accurately model the BAB progression. Or that you could use favored class on a PrC, cause if you're in there for 10 levels, it IS your class.
The most annoying thing is that they intentionally make stacking not function, even when it's painfully obvious it could come up and would be super easy to do. Take Shadowdancer for example. They get Rogue talents. They have fair odds of being entered by a rogue, archaeologist bard, or someone else that already gets rogue talents.
"Starting at 3rd level, when Shadowdancer gains its first Rogue Talent, levels in the PrC stack with levels of any base classes for all purposes of rogue talents, such as numerical effects based on rogue level, and when the character has 10 rogue levels and can thus qualify for advanced talents."
That took me 30 seconds. It was not hard at all. Why is that not there? Because paizo doesn't WANT the most elementary, basic stacking to happen between PrCs and synergistic base classes, as a way to weaken them / make them lss appealing. It's appalling and insane.
2. PrCs can be taken at any point during your career!
Cute, but here's a dark secret of PrC design: PrCs are balanced with assumption that they are taken ASAP (read: level 6 in most cases). So, their class features are balanced against class features of base classes of level X+5. If you pick a PrC at, say, level 10 - you're shafting yourself in the foot, because you are 5 levels late with class feature power level.
I think this bears expounding on as one of the things I hate the most about how Paizo has treated prestige classes. Their design focus is far too situated on the "capstone feature." Because most PrCs are 10 levels and can be entered ~level 5-7, you obviously finish them before you'd reach level 20 in a base class. So, you get the captone earlier than a base class would. While sometimes the captsone totally sucks (*cough*duelist!*cough*) and for the most part they seem a bit toned down compared to what base classes get, they're still often quite the sudden jump in power. Look at Shadowdancer, who at level 10 goes from DR 0 to DR 10, and gets a bunch of other big benefits for fighting in shadows. Or Arcane Trickster, who suddenly gets the ability to SA on area spells and magic missiles. The fact is, these classes are extremely subpar and painful to enter. The "balance point" seems to be "well, they get capstones sooner." That's just such terrible game design. Have I mentioned yet how much I hate the "buy now, pay later" / "pay now, pick up later" mentality?
PrCs, from a purely mechanical standpoint (you know, a "rollplayer's view," because wanting to be good at your niche has absolutely nothing to do with roleplaying), seem to boil down to a "race to the top." Can you start the game at 10th level in it, or very close to it? Awesome, go for it! Can't? Guess you should be playing something else...
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To be completely honest I feel the other way entirely I hate archetypes for the most part and like prestige classes because devs aren't afraid to give prestige classes something weird and different instead of the tiny variations that most of the archetypes consist of which I can find tiresome.
There are plenty of archetypes that give you something weird. Wizards that cast spells through their guns. Cavaliers that ride an allosaurus into battle. Bards that raise the dead through music. Archetypes run the gamut from big thematic changes (bordering on alternate classes) to little more than alternate class features, which are always welcome options as well.
An archetype just allows you to still do most of the things you're expected to do within your class as well.
Sure. Design goals are something that everyone wants to take mechanically and nobody wants to take flavorfully.
Gromulan Pukemage
Legendary for their mechanical superiority and off-putting flavor, the Gromulan Pukemagi were the worst thing to ever happen to Golarion. Commanding powerful arcane forces, clearly busted mechanics, and a variety of incongruous and just plain weird motifs, the order of Pukemagi has throughout the years attracted a huge number of very, very reluctant acolytes.
Role: The Pukemage fills largely the same role as the wizard, just better.
Alignment: Gromulan Pukemagi may be of any alignment, provided that nobody else in the party is that alignment.Requirements
To qualify to become a pukemage, a character must fulfill all the following criteria.
Skills: Heal, 5 ranks.
Spells: Able to cast 3rd-level prepared arcane spells.
Class Skills
The Pukemage’s class skills are:
Bluff, Intimidate, Swim½ BAB, Good Fort save, Poor Reflex save, Good Will save, d6 Hit die
Spellcasting:
At every level, the Pukemage gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in an arcane spellcasting class he belonged to before adding the prestige class. He does not, however, gain other benefits a character of that class would have gained, except for additional spells per day, spells known (if he is a spontaneous caster), and an increased effective level of spellcasting. If he had more than one arcane spellcasting class before becoming a pukemage, he must decide to which class he adds the new level for the purpose of determining spells per day. Seriously, every level.Sagari Familiar:
At first level, the Pukemage acquires a Sagari as a familiar, replacing whatever the heck he had before, if anything. The Pukemage adds his Pukemage level to the level of any other class granting him a familiar to determine this familiar’s abilities. (The Sagari is the thing with a horse head for a head and a tentacle for a body.)...
This may actually be the most entertaining thing I've ever seen written on these boards.
Replying to it, just to spread the awesomeness
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...Solution: create base classes that are a a marriage of 2 classes into 1.
The other solution is to redesign these PrCs to make them more potent.
Paizo has been clear on their policy of archetypes not being more powerful then the base classes, and I believe they have the same policy for Prestige classes as well.
As for more base classes, I doubt they will be doing more of those.
Like I said in the post, we probably should look to third party publishers for our prestige class fix.
If that was their policy they really failed miserably because there are several which are just outright better than the base classes not the least of which is the pistolero/musket master vs base gunslinger.
Don't forget the Qinqqong and Zen Archer Monk archetypes.
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Is it sad that I wish all of Joyd's fake Prestige Classes were real? I really want to play a Tattooed Centipedehat...
I'm currently hungover/maybe still drunk, and my snickering is annoying my girlfriend to no end (She is also hungover...Ahem).
EDIT: And THEN I read the Pukemage write-up...And I had to go into the living room, from her 'SShhhhh!!!!!' noises at me from the depths of the covers.
BTW, I'm a bartender, and I think that I've met a few Pukemages...
-Uriel
I really only support PrC's being equivalent to the classes they leave behind, if once you are in it you are stuck to the end. The very end. If its a 3 level class you are stuck taking all 3 in order start to finish. Same with 5 or 10 or whatever.
The problem- to me- with the 3.5 wasn't the PrC's. it was with people cherry picking a level- sometimes two- and moving on to something else, trying not to get flavor but rather to build the most absolute mathematical abomination that they could assemble.
Something that was useful and flavorful for the PRC it was intended for got ripped out because "oh thats handy, forget the rest of the stuff in the PrC that was intended to balance it".
Without it you either get folks ranking PrC's in terms of their usefulness as a level dip or the designers being forced to stave off the useful abilities of the class until very very late.
The middle ground of course is to tie every single mechanic into the level of the PrC. but that too gets to be a stale mechanic after a time.
To me, they just need to make 'em all or nothing things. You either take the class or you don't. There is no "some".
-S
I completely disagree. If a PrC offers some class feature that fits really well with my character concept and I can get it by dipping 2 levels in, it should be my choice whether or not to continue taking levels in the PrC or to go on to something else. If I got what I wanted fairly early, why should I get "stuck" with the rest? Forcing me to take possibly 8 more levels of a class I don't want to play as sounds pretty un-fun to me.
I've done the real life equivalent many times over. I changed majors a few different times in college, but still picked up a few tricks from each of those previous majors along the way.
Maybe the character changed their mind, had a change of heart, or for whatever reason decided that this particular PrC path was just not for them? In 3.5 there were already caveats with Monk and Paladin that implicitly stated...
Forcing you to take all or nothing allows them /much/ greater flexibility in class design because they can balance the entire thing instead of worrying "well crap if we put this at level 2 everyone will just steal 2 levels of it and go, but if we put it at level 8 then its 8 levels of sucking until they get it"
I'd rather them say "these 10 levels are balanced vs 10 levels of what you gave up to get into it"
than
"these 10 levels are balanced vs 10 levels of what you gave up to get into it, starting at level 8"
"cherry pick" is a flaw not a feature and it *has* to be neutered before you can ever hope to see truly useful prestige classes.
IMO: characters don't have changes of heart. Players decide long before hand what path their character will take and ensure that they wind warp and woof their character into that mold so that its "organic".
I want (me personally, my opinion here) PrC's to be taken wholly or not at all. Cherry picking was a huge problem for 3.5 and its something they've been *forced* to solve by making PrC's generally craptastic.
If you want good prestige classes- you have to give something up.
You can either give up the ability for it to be useful for most of its levels or you can give up the ability to cherry pick something from the early set and tack it on to your character.
Myself, I prefer to eliminate cherry picking. If you want a PRC, take the PRC.
-S
Archetypes are like a huge, juicy steak with mashed potatoes and gravy, corn on the cob, followed by a brownie sundae - all good and to everybody's taste.
I don't like steak. My mother is lactose intolerant and can't eat the sundae. My best friend don't like chocolate.
You can't sit there and bash someone else for liking something just because you don't. Not everyone shares your tastes. Its called an opinion for a reason. In my opinion, archetypes are great, but they are quickly becoming the "new" prestige classes in that there are too many and they are overused. Plus, as the OP of this thread says, they can't fill in the role of "idea that fits multiple classes." This is where something like the Arcane Trickster shined; it was a hybrid of rogue and spellcaster. The concept of "guy who uses magic to augment his skills" most certainly does not fit Sorcerer better than Wizard, or even Magus. The Prestige Class is interesting because it allows for a new level of character customization.
You speak of "fruitcake prestige classes," well, there are fruit cake archetypes too; archetypes that don't really offer anything good or spectacular for what they trade. If you claim that its because Paizo puts a lot of work into making sure their Archetypes are good, then who's to say that they couldn't put a lot of work into making sure their Prestige Classes are good as well? The problem isn't the concept of Prestige Classes, the problem is the people who made them in 3.5.
Like it or not, Prestige Classes as a concept are a huge pare of the game that Paizo is marketing Pathfinder as the spiritual successor to. They kept tons of rules that are more obsolete then Prestige Classes, so why completely stop supporting something that people liked and was already in the game? I'm personally glad to see Paths of Prestige come out; its a step in the right direction.
Besides, if they keep coming out with more archetypes, you'll start complaining about Archetype bloat soon enough.
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I completely disagree. If a PrC offers some class feature that fits really well with my character concept and I can get it by dipping 2 levels in, it should be my choice whether or not to continue taking levels in the PrC or to go on to something else. If I got what I wanted fairly early, why should I get "stuck" with the rest? Forcing me to take possibly 8 more levels of a class I don't want to play as sounds pretty un-fun to me.
I've done the real life equivalent many times over. I changed majors a few different times in college, but still picked up a few tricks from each of those previous majors along the way.
Maybe the character changed their mind, had a change of heart, or for whatever reason decided that this particular PrC path was just not for them? In 3.5 there were already caveats with Monk and Paladin that
I agree with you completely. I actually build a DM character for a campaign who is completely based around Favored Terrain. He's a guide to a new land for the PCs.
When I started building him, I decided to go with Horizon Walker as a no-brainer; its a cool, fun, and fair Prestige Class. I built the character up and started looking through the other Prestige Classes (I didn't care about Ranger 10 / Horizon Walker 10) and found the Nature Warden. At 2nd level, they get a Class Feature that gives them an AC bonus while they're in their Favored Terrain. I was like "hey, that's cool and works well with my character build; let's go with that!" So I rebuilt the character and pulled it off where I could get into the class as a Ranger 3 / Druid 3 and have two levels leftover for whatever I wanted (Ranger 3 / Druid 3 / Nature Warden 2 / Horizon Walker 10 with 2 levels left over either for Ranger, Druid, or Nature Warden). So then I went Archetype hunting and found Reincarnated Druid. At 5th level I could get the power for my DM character to come back to life after a week when he died. How cool was that for a DM character? Great way to justify bringing the party back after a TPK. So that means my build would have been Ranger 3 / Druid 5 / Nature Warden 2 / Horizon Walker 10, so then I started looking at Ranger levels and found out that I could take the Warden archetype and trade away my Favored Enemy to get Favored Terrain at 1st level. That, again, freed up 2 levels for me and dropped a whole bunch of Ranger class features that I didn't need (Combat Feat and Favored Enemy).
So now, using Archetypes and Prestige Classes, I literally built the perfect character for what I want him to do. Ranger 1 (Warden) / Druid 5 (Reincarnated Druid) / Nature Warden 2 / Horizon Walker 10, plus 2 levels leftover for anything I feel like taking. This is how Archetypes and Prestige Classes should work; together to make unique custom characters.
TL;DR I completely agree with you (and fore shame those of you who skipped my epic tale of building the perfect character for a role I needed filled!)
Prestige classes don't cause power creep, power creep causes power creep.Truer words cannot be spoken.I disagree with your premise, Ashiel:
"One equals one."
/threadjack
Haha, this made me smile. ^-^
I really hope they keep prestige classes to a minimum. Archetypes seem like a much better fit, and I like the focus they put on base classes, as opposed to people looking at them as a stepping stone to their OP prestige class.
I also feel prestige classes trivialize the base classes, as it just becomes looking at what class gets you to your prestige class fastest. WHereas archetypes compliment the base classes by giving them alternate abilities that only that class can do.
The one thing I would like to see focused on for archetypes is more overlay. Archetype rules permit you to take multiple archetypes as long as they give up different base class abilities, but not many classes have archetypes to allow them to do that.
There is room for both. The archetype class is great for starting as the concept you want. The Prestige classes are great for changing direction with character because of in game circumstances.
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Aren't Prestige Classes purely optional anyway?
I can tell you in my games that if you want to start cherry picking prestige classes or even classes for that matter then you better show me "in game" how you found out about that certain class and how you gained it. I never allowed people to flip through the books and start picking classes to build some broken combo. If you came across something and wanted your character to go that route then I was always involved because I could tell if it was legit or just a freak combo.
If you went flipping through the Underdark book and wanted a PrC then you better have been to the Underdark, during our game or had a really good backstory, or you wouldn't get it.