|
Indeed. But see that's the thing. I've never even heard of people using or intending to use the class like that and I get around let me tell ya. I think it perhaps might be an overanalysis, but still it's within the realm of possibility I will concede. Still I think it's fringe. If anything Synths are MORE distinctive and prone to attention.If you cannot see the actual character (race, features, gender, etc), such as you seem to want to do with your 'nightmare' idea, then YOU are using it as a disguise.
Also, not to argue the form you choose, but just so you know, it's been ruled that if the eidolon doesnt have arms, then the summoner inside cannot cast spells that require movement.
Actually my friend it reads "The ediolon must have limbs for the synthesist to cast spells with somatic components."
My good friend interwebs, Wiki, dictionary and biology says, "Limb (anatomy), an appendage of a human or animal"
*Holds up hooves* Limbs, check. But whatever I'm more of a hoof to the face kinda horse anyway rather than spells.
But let's not go there, I avoid the rules forums for a reason. Mainly because I'm not pedantic. ; )
|
Well Im not going to ask you to cite your reference, since Im the one who brought it up, but if you wound up playing at my table (until I look it up), then Id be ruling that against you.
Of course, out of combat, it wouldnt really matter, as long as you wouldnt mind falling over every time you would cast a spell, lol.
*begins searching for where I saw that clarification*.
|
|
If it isn't translucent then how do I see out? :p
"HELP ITS DARK IN HERE!"
Funny Shifty, funny. "(you)..percieve through the eidolon's senses.."
Seriously though did I trip and fall into the rules forum while I wasn't looking or is it bleeding through like radiation?
Focus, people, focus. We're shooting for compromise here not one upmanship.
|
|
i apologize if i insulted all organized play because of one bad 4th edition experience. it left that foul a taste in my mouth.
if i can find a place to play as well as some time, i might consider eliminating a few concepts.
Apology accepted (at least by me, anyway :-) ).
OP isn't for everyone. It doesn't lend itself well to certain play styles (e.g., nearly all OP campaigns restrict things like evil PCs and PvP activities). The adventures are usually structured to fit into a set time period (to make it possible to run them at conventions or other events with set time limits), which does tend to lead to "railroady" adventures (though that's not always the case).
And, as this thread illustrates, OP campaigns generally don't allow for "DM calls" on character concepts which require judgment calls, or re-interpretation of RAW.
All of that said, I've met a lot of really great people (and great gamers) via playing in OP campaigns, and played in a lot of very enjoyable games and campaigns. If you're willing to give it another try, I hope you can find a group more in line with your play style.
|
| 2 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Staff response: no reply required. |
If you can show me in an offical ruling you don't need fingers to cast somatic and material component spells, fine, but otherwise a synthesis summoner without hands in eidelon form should not be able to cast spells.
Easily done.
"The ediolon must have limbs for the synthesist to cast spells with somatic components."
"Limbs (Ex)
An eidolon grows an additional pair of limbs. These limbs can take one of two forms. They can be made into legs, complete with feet. Each pair of legs increases the eidolon’s base speed by 10 feet. Alternatively, they can be made into arms, complete with hands. The eidolon does not gain any additional natural attacks for an additional pair of arms, but it can take other evolutions that add additional attacks (such as claws or a slam). Arms that have hands can be used to wield weapons, if the eidolon is proficient. This evolution can be selected more than once. Source: Advanced Player's Guide"
Limbs, for eidolans, are arms or legs, per RAW.
|
|
That's something no Society Judge should just wash his hands of. Even if it's involving a ruling that would critically threaten a character we've created that we love, no matter how seemingly trivial the rule was at first.
I tire of endless arguments of RAW vs RAI. No matter what happens, until a dev says otherwise, people will be of the same opinion. If the rule says "must have limbs" and the eidolan has limbs, then cast away. If the powers that be clarify that an eidolan must have hands for a synthesist to cast, then I'll run it that way.
|
If the official ruling is going to be that RAW is more important than RAI, FUN or ROLEPLAY, that is fine. I will treat PFS as I do my other passion: Wargaming.
Fluff is strictly secondary to tactical combat effieciency and I come to the table with cross indexed rulebooks and FAQ's in hand. Winning is strictly measured by objectives + kill points.
|
That's something no Society Judge should just wash his hands of. Even if it's involving a ruling that would critically threaten a character we've created that we love, no matter how seemingly trivial the rule was at first.
I think the intent is actually that the Summoners fingers are using the components, they just need limbs to be able to wave their arms around to cast the spells. If the eidolon doesn't have limbs, then the summoner can't move their arms about. So a Quadruped with Hooves could cast spells, because the Summoner has limbs by which they can move their arms.
|
I wish I had my computer because I am pretty certain you cannot cast while inside the eidolon unless your eidolon takes the right evolutions. It is somewhere in synth summoner thread in the rules forum, posting by SKR. Although some my cry "but it's not in the FAQ," it's still open to GM interpretation. Expect table variation.
If it isn't translucent then how do I see out? :p
"HELP ITS DARK IN HERE!"
"Kinda hot in these rhinos."
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I wish I had my computer because I am pretty certain you cannot cast while inside the eidolon unless your eidolon takes the right evolutions. It is somewhere in synth summoner thread in the rules forum, posting by SKR. Although some my cry "but it's not in the FAQ," it's still open to GM interpretation. Expect table variation.
Actually, it is in the FAQ:
The specific text that applies for this conversation:
Summoner: Can a synthesist (page 80) make attacks from his own body (such as manufactured weapons, unarmed strikes, or natural attacks) and attacks from the fused eidolon in the same round?
Yes, but the fused character's natural attacks are still subject to the Maximum Attacks entry in the table for an eidolon of his level. For example, a 1st-level synthesist is limited to 3 natural attacks per round, whether those natural attacks are from the eidolon, the synthesist, or a combination of the two.
If the synthesist wants to use his eidolon's natural attacks and use his own manufactured weapons or natural weapons in the same round, his eidolon needs to have enough limbs to account for all of these attacks. For example, a gnome synthesist fused with a two-armed biped eidolon has two arms it can use to make attacks; if the synthesist wants to make claw attacks with his eidolon's claws and also make weapon attacks (such as with a dagger or staff), he needs to give his eidolon additional arms evolutions to hold those weapons (as an extension of the summoner's own limbs)--a two-armed eidolon can't make two claw attacks and also make a dagger attack or staff attack in the same round.
Remember that the synthesist is still subject to the rules of combining manufactured weapon attacks and natural weapon attacks in the same round (in that the natural weapons are always considered secondary and therefore have a -5 attack penalty).
Remember also that the summoner is wearing the eidolon like a biological, all-encompassing "suit," and the eidolon's shape limits what the summoner can do. If the eidolon doesn't have arms, the summoner can't use his own arms to manipulate objects, make attacks, cast somatic spells, or anything else requiring arms--while fused, the summoner's limbs are trapped within the armless eidolon-suit, and he isn't able to use them to manipulate things. The summoner isn't able to extend his own body parts outside of the eidolon-suit; if he wants to be able to manipulate things with arms, the eidolon needs arms (though tentacles are sufficient for simple tasks).
(Note: It is a matter of flavor and player's preference whether the synthesist floats immobile within the eidolon-suit and its limbs move at his mental command, if the synthesist moves his own arms and the eidolon-suit's arms echo this movement, or if the eidolon-suit is more form-fitting and the flesh-enveloping limbs move in direct response to the synthesist's own movements.)
Note: This clarifies an earlier FAQ error where the summoner's weapon attacks counted toward the number of attacks on the table.
—Sean K Reynolds, 08/02/11
Emphasis mine. 'Limbs' unfortunately, isnt good enough. The eidolon must have arms. So any eidolon that isnt the humanoid base form would need to take an extra evolution to get arms on the thing to be able to cast somatic spells while inside the eidolon.
|
|
Lets end this silly discussion. ALL spell casters require hands in order to cast spells with somatic components (unless you use still spell or have a feat (druids) that says otherwise). Unless your feet are hands you can not use them to cast.
A somatic component is a measured and precise movement of the hand. You must have at least one hand free to provide a somatic component.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Okay, now I need to make a synthesist "hell dog" a la Ghostbusters. 8^)I play with someone who's eidolon is the Stay Puft Marshmallow Man from that movie. The "who you gonna call" theme song has become their combat anthem.
But he's harmless. That eidolon must be particularly vulnerable to fire.
|
|
If a summoner gets the Limb (Arm) evolution they automatically have hands if memory serves.
Yes. Bipeds are the only form that starts with Limb (arm). If you have a different form you must purchase the Limb Evolution for 2 pts. You then get a set (2) limbs that can either be legs are arms. Only arms come with hands.
|
|
I just have two points:
1) This thread is stressing me out with the negativity
2) Translucent: permitting light to pass through but diffusing it so that persons, objects, etc., on the opposite side are not clearly visible: Frosted window glass is translucent but not transparent.
There is still a lot of flavor and crunch to the Synthesist using this definition.
I just have two points:
1) This thread is stressing me out with the negativity
2) Translucent: permitting light to pass through but diffusing it so that persons, objects, etc., on the opposite side are not clearly visible: Frosted window glass is translucent but not transparent.There is still a lot of flavor and crunch to the Synthesist using this definition.
A synthesist with an eidolon that looked like stained glass would be crazy cool looking, especially if the shapes changed at will.
RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
|
But he's harmless. That eidolon must be particularly vulnerable to fire.Okay, now I need to make a synthesist "hell dog" a la Ghostbusters. 8^)I play with someone who's eidolon is the Stay Puft Marshmallow Man from that movie. The "who you gonna call" theme song has become their combat anthem.
It actually has evolved to have four arms wielding short swords and is quite prickly for a gooey dude.
|
|
The following is my opinion and does not reflect anything more than that...
I despise the Synth-Summoner. Its theme/concept would have been better captured as a high level spell.
As an alternate class it holds little relevance in a proper Pathfinder setting and always feels forced.
At home, my Ban-Hammer leaves this (and many other Archtypes) flat and unrecognizable for player's use.
I don't have that liberty in Society play, but I do have influence over my players and will freely exercise it.
L2G.
G2L.
|
|
This should come to the surprise of no one that this topic exploded. There is a 800+ thread about this particular archetype somewhere on the Rules forum. It's easily the most confusing archetype of any class from any book.
The lack of familiarity with summoners is what caused me to make one, and I made the most "reviled" one to see if it's as bad as everyone says it is. Haven't gotten a chance to play it yet, but it seems no more OP, than any of the other classes...yet.
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Anything that we do with the Summoner class is likely to garner this type of response. It largely exists outside the "normal" rules that govern most classes and therefore, is open to a much wider interpretation of RAW vs. RAI than others. Anytime you create an exceptions-based option, you start to lose the firmness of the rules as a basis for what can/not be done.
Personally, I am in conflict over this entire class. While I support player options and it has some interesting features, I find myself just wishing that the entire class get the banhammer for PFS.
|
|
I think the intent is actually that the Summoners fingers are using the components,As others in this thread are stating; intent is irrelevent; only RAW matters. RAW states limbs are required, not hands.
No official FAQ, no deal.
Uh, dude, I was agreeing with you and using a RAI argument to make sense of RAW. Read what I wrote before you go off eh?
|
Translucent =/= transparent.
Translucent only means it transmits some light. It does not say in the description how much light the Eidolon suit transmits, so it could be next to nil. Furthermore, someone on the outside may not be able to discern who / what is inside, or even if there is anything inside.
Make it the way you need to to describe your Eidolon. I.E. it appears mostly solid except in the brightest of light or under close scrutiny.
The RAI is that it is obvious that it is an Eidolon to anyone looking upon it though, so trying to "trick" anyone otherwise should fail.
|
RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
|
PM me the joke! I know him!I really wanna jump on this... but I don't know Bob well enough to make a joke. Someone else should do it ;)I just wanna know if I can wear an Egger suit? :PWould you really want to be that ugly and smelly, though?
Oh no, I didn't have a joke -- but the set up is too good not to make one.
|
Venture-Captain, Michigan—Mt. Pleasant
|
I really wanna jump on this... but I don't know Bob well enough to make a joke. Someone else should do it ;)I just wanna know if I can wear an Egger suit? :PWould you really want to be that ugly and smelly, though?
Yeah, I thought about going further, but as I've never talked to him face-to-face besides asking him for directions at one con, decided against it... ;D
|
|
The easy way to deal with this is to let the players who want a solid object have a nearly opaque "suite" that looks like whatever they want.
After all, nearly opaque is the same as partially translucent. Like partly cloudy is the same as mostly sunny.
But also include that observers will always know that it is really a summoner inside their "suite", because it just looks unreal.
Just me 2 cents.
|
|
Anything that we do with the Summoner class is likely to garner this type of response. It largely exists outside the "normal" rules that govern most classes and therefore, is open to a much wider interpretation of RAW vs. RAI than others. Anytime you create an exceptions-based option, you start to lose the firmness of the rules as a basis for what can/not be done.
Personally, I am in conflict over this entire class. While I support player options and it has some interesting features, I find myself just wishing that the entire class get the banhammer for PFS.
I don't mind the idea banning the synthesist, because it bluntly, is a source of controversy, anger and is disruptive.
On the other hand, I've not seen the summoner as an exception based option, more like a natural expansion of the animal companion rules (and I'd love to see a more 'natural' archtype that isn't weak).
I do agree it's open to a wider interpretation of RAW vs RAI but the only result I've seen is several standout character concepts. I do suspect this may not as be true outside my rather large local community, which has latched onto the class. I honestly have seldom encountered a 'no summoner bias' other than on these forums.
My suggestion to you is to do what Daniel is doing, only with a more vanilla summoner. Make the character as interesting and well thought out as possible. I've noticed that 'controvertial' characters are better received (Gunslinger, Summoner, or whatever) if they are interesting and fun to play with.
But play the class.
I think that often people forget that the point of this game is to have fun. Rules exist so that we can all come to the table with certain expectations and a common understanding of how a game is going to unfold. Following the rules in organized play is even more important since you are drawing people together that may have very different styles of play. When I run a game I think that having fun is the most important point, I have no problem bending some rules so that players can create the characters they want and have fun. I as GM am there to open a world in which the players can tell the stories of their characters. This thread like many others I have read come down to RAI and RAW. I think that you just have to understand that in organized play you have to sacrifice some personal preferences so that the group as a whole can have a higher level of enjoyment. This post is a little generic but I've gotten the same feel from so many threads, this is finally the one that made me post.
