|
Even if they are modeled after a monstrous creature, that doesn't mean they get to be as intimidating as the creature itself. Besides, there are a lot of issues that the synthesist summoner has that makes them more of a liability for play (especially with how healing them works, it's really wonky, as well as casting spells with the eidolon suit on). Make sure to read up on the FAQ and rules forums about how to handle them, because it's likely they are being played incorrectly. And that doesn't even get into townspeople not taking too kindly about what someone looks like walking down the street.
/Summoners, on average, have the most mistakes out of any characters I've ever audited.
//Synthesist summoners, even more so.
What's the fun in playing a monstrous race when he's still a longshank underneath the armor? ^__^
|
let them do it. a synthesist modeled after a "monstrous" species is fine.
i had an idea for one modeled after the grim reaper.
Just to be clear, I don't have an issue with the player basing their Eidelon form after something, just they're supposed to be translucent.
You know, no gnomish trojan ponies.
the translucent part is fluff. not a rule. you can technically handwave that.
if my eidolon form resembled the creature it was based off of. i better actually look like that creature in question.
gnomish trojan ponies sounds ridiculous, but if i had a hypothetical human summoner whose hypotehtical eidolon form looked like an angel of some sort. you can safely wager that i want the form to have the requisite angelic features. usually these consist of wings (if you have a fly speed) a halo, and other common celestial features.
|
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I do not think the translucent thing is fluff, it's pretty integral to the archetype. You can't wear an eidolon suit and become a creature you are not, you wear them as a translucent skin. You can look like it, but your PC will be floating inside a shimmering, translucent figure of the eidolon.
*Edit: Damn, ninja'd!
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
What?!?! No Edgar suits??? ;)
+1 to not being fluff as well. It is pretty well spelled out for the archetype as to what the effect is.
|
|
"A synthesist summons the essence of a powerful outsider to meld with his own being. The synthesist wears the eidolon like translucent, living armor. The eidolon mimics all of the synthesist’s movements, and the synthesist perceives through the eidolon’s senses and speaks through its voice, as the two are now one creature."
this is nothing more than fluff text.
While fused with his eidolon, the synthesist uses the eidolon’s physical ability scores (Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution), but retains his own mental ability scores (Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma). The synthesist gains the eidolon’s hit points as temporary hit points. When these hit points reach 0, the eidolon is killed and sent back to its home plane. The synthesist uses the eidolon’s base attack bonus, and gains the eidolon’s armor and natural armor bonuses and modifiers to ability scores. The synthesist also gains access to the eidolon’s special abilities and the eidolon’s evolutions. The synthesist is still limited to the eidolon’s maximum number of natural attacks. The eidolon has no skills or feats of its own. The eidolon must be at least the same size as the synthesist. The eidolon must have limbs for the synthesist to cast spells with somatic components. The eidolon’s temporary hit points can be restored with the rejuvenate eidolon spell.
While fused, the synthesist loses the benefits of his armor. He counts as both his original type and as an outsider for any effect related to type, whichever is worse for the synthesist. Spells such as banishment or dismissal work normally on the eidolon, but the synthesist is unaffected. Neither the synthesist nor his eidolon can be targeted separately, as they are fused into one creature. The synthesist and eidolon cannot take separate actions. While fused with his eidolon, the synthesist can use all of his own abilities and gear, except for his armor. In all other cases, this ability functions as the summoner’s normal eidolon ability (for example, the synthesist cannot use his summon monster ability while the eidolon is present).
This ability replaces the class’s eidolon ability, bond senses, and life bond.
The following class abilities function differently for synthesist summoners
this is the mechanics text
lets compare to sneak attack as an example
If a rogue can catch an opponent when he is unable to defend himself effectively from her attack, she can strike a vital spot for extra damage
fluff text
The rogue's attack deals extra damage (called "precision damage") anytime her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target. This extra damage is 1d6 at 1st level, and increases by 1d6 every two rogue levels thereafter. Should the rogue score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied. Ranged attacks can count as sneak attacks only if the target is within 30 feet.
With a weapon that deals nonlethal damage (like a sap, whip, or an unarmed strike), a rogue can make a sneak attack that deals nonlethal damage instead of lethal damage. She cannot use a weapon that deals lethal damage to deal nonlethal damage in a sneak attack, not even with the usual –4 penalty.
The rogue must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot. A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment.
mechanical text
|
The translucent thing is very badly written and we ignore in the home game where I play one. And this is one of those RAW things that simply doesn't fit a lot of character concepts.
The point was to make the possessed synthesist distinctive looking. Defining it as only translucent was a mistake. So unfortunately we have a bad, as in character concept limiting descriptor that is there for no really good reason that is unfortunately offical.
It should be handwaved in home games. It should be rewritten if the synthesist makes Pathfinder 2.0.
Unfortunately, for organized play we are stuck with it because it is RAW. Therefore, it stands, but for no good reason other then 'the rules say so' and enough people (as evidenced by this thread) don't see it as fluff. That means RAW will win out. I don't like it or agree with it, but I can live with it.
Best solution would be some errata along the lines of 'a synthesist summoner may ignore the translucent descriptor provided the eidolon possessed form is obviously distinct from the character's normal form and cannot be mistaken for a typical humaniod form. For example, the eidolon form could resemble a medium animal or the form of a diety, the summoner's dead Siamese twin reattached from the afterlife, or anything distinct like that. But it couldn't resemble say, a humanoid of the opposite sex, or a different race that could walk down the street normally.'
It is not something I would hold my breath waiting to see though.
|
|
Even if we were to agree it is fluff text, you are at the whims of the GM and random table variation of rulings. If you sit at my table, it is translucent - end of story. You can disagree with it all you want, but it isn't going to sway the way I interpret how an archetype is designed for play. But as it stands, it's pretty RAW that it is translucent.
/I sure hope that summoners don't make Pathfinder 2.0
//At least get rid of synthesist summoners
///Personal opinion
|
|
Even if we were to agree it is fluff text, you are at the whims of the GM and random table variation of rulings. If you sit at my table, it is translucent - end of story. You can disagree with it all you want, but it isn't going to sway the way I interpret how an archetype is designed for play. But as it stands, it's pretty RAW that it is translucent.
I disagree with it enough that I won't play a synthesist in PFS, therefore it won't come up as an argument.
And to me it is unfortunate that this is a bit of fluff that I can't work around, with a reasonable GM like yourself; unlike say, the combination of traits and racial features I took to make my regular summoner feel/roleplay somewhat like a ranger or make a very non oriental ninja class character.
The point is there is no logical reason other than 'it's in the book' for it to stand. Add to this the fact that the translucent fluff doesn't match almost anything IRL, be it stories of shamanism, comic books, exorcist movies that deals with being 'possessed' (but remaining in control) just makes it counterintuitive and adds up to another reason for me to really want to see this errataed.
I have an issue with a character essentially getting a fool-proof alter self which is what this is sounding like to me.
That is why I was very careful how I worded my potential errata. The point is the synthesist form should be distinct, not stuck with horribly written fluff.
Point is you should be able to make the Hulk as a synthesist summoner sometimes possessed by a rage spirit. And yes, I get you can make him as a Barbarian Alchemist, but something like this should be an option as Synthesist, but it isn't because of nothing but very illogical fluff.
RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
|
Whenever there are synthesist/eidolons I always run it as the NPCs always know (unless unintelligent) that they are X.
"It looks like the Stay Puft Marshmellow Man you say? Neat, they all know its a summoned creature."
+1 to not letting summoners have a fool-proof Alter Self. Well said Bob.
|
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Don't forget the big honkin' "I'm an Eidolon/Summoner" sigil on their forehead.
I'd allow non-transluscent Synthesis Eidolons in home games with that major caveat, as well as Kerney's specification that it can't pass for someone else.
Keeps "I get possessed sometimes/Imma transhumanist!/My guardian angel grants me his grace" types possible.
|
|
That pretty much makes the 'fool proof alter self' a strawman argument.I disagree. If the summoner is hidden inside and the eidolon simply looks like a lone creature, and you do not have a skill to identify the significance of the glowing symbol, then...
Still, people with weird glowy symbols are not normal, any more than say green skin. That should get noticed...and in some cases reacted to.
And the glowy symbol is easy to cover up with a headband or hat.
Add to that, Paizo has demonstrated on several occasions that the glowy symbols are optional. (For example, the pair that show up in the Harrow Deck adventure don't have glowy symbols.)
I would say it needs a disguise check skill, not something most people put a lot of points in. I would agree it's a low one, but still, it's not a "freebie". Glowy symbols glow, an it would take a moderate effort (say DC 15) to cover that up. Add to that things like claws, fangs, wings etc and people are likely to make such efforts harder. True, you could work around that with your build, but you'd probably make other sacrifices in effectiveness to accomplish the stealth.
APG, says glowy symbols are required. That's what counts for PFS. If Paizo has broken their own rules in other books, it's just an indication the the rules should be rethought.
None of this has to do with whether the 'translucent living armor' makes sense in any other context than 'the book says that's what it is therefore that's what we are going with' rather than 'those rules make logical, intuitive sense in a balanced manner' which is the hallmark of good game design.
|
I would say it needs a disguise check skill, not something most people put a lot of points in.
I've got a local player who does that with his (non synthesist) summoner. He even has figs that are matching that he wants to use. So far, I havent let him use the same fig for both, as it could get switched up in combat, but it's still an interesting idea.
If he does fight somethign that would be smart enough to go for the summoner instead of the eidolon, then I give him the opposed Perception check to see if the enemy can tell which is which. It's worked fairly well for him so far.
|
synthesist does not change this part of an eidolon.
The eidolon’s physical appearance is up to the summoner, but it always appears as some sort of fantastical creature. This control is not fine enough to make the eidolon appear like a specific creature. The eidolon also bears a glowing rune that is identical to a rune that appears on the summoner’s forehead as long as the eidolon is summoned.
|
|
synthesist does not change this part of an eidolon.
The eidolon’s physical appearance is up to the summoner, but it always appears as some sort of fantastical creature. This control is not fine enough to make the eidolon appear like a specific creature. The eidolon also bears a glowing rune that is identical to a rune that appears on the summoner’s forehead as long as the eidolon is summoned.
True, but if you make it look like an elf, then give it the same robe and wizard hat, its going to be a bit challenging to figure out which is which. Thus, the disguise check.
|
|
As a player (I have a crazed tiefling synthesist summoner - who's aspect is fiend-like creature)and I dont like the fluff either but I can live with it. I guess we dont want a whole bunch of manga suits/power ranger monsters running around the game getting attacked by the locals or constables.
As a GM I stick to the rule : its transluscent. A player could disguise himself with a hat of disguise if he'd like or a higher lvl illusion spell that should produce the desired effect.
Chief Technical Officer
|
| 2 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Staff response: no reply required. 7 people marked this as a favorite. |
Whether you think it's "fluff" or not, it is what it is. Fireballs begin as glowing, pea-sized beads, and detonate with a low roar. Fused eidolons are translucent. Just because those things are descriptive doesn't mean you get to change them at your whim. (At least, not when you're supposed to be playing by the rules. Change 'em all you want outside of PFS, of course...)
|
Chief Technical Officer
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Paizo has demonstrated on several occasions that the glowy symbols are optional. (For example, the pair that show up in the Harrow Deck adventure don't have glowy symbols.)
What that really illustrates is that artists don't necessarily know all the rules.
|
I think the answer is more likely "Because it shuts down a ton of character concepts."Defining it as only translucent was a mistake.Because... you don't like it?
Correct. I've previously outlined the various concepts you can make using it.
The translucent bit limits options, it doesn't create them.
|
RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
|
What that really illustrates is that artists don't necessarily know all the rules.Paizo has demonstrated on several occasions that the glowy symbols are optional. (For example, the pair that show up in the Harrow Deck adventure don't have glowy symbols.)
Are they just...drawing their own conclusions?
*puts shades on*
|
|
Whether you think it's "fluff" or not, it is what it is. Fireballs begin as glowing, pea-sized beads, and detonate with a low roar. Fused eidolons are translucent. Just because those things are descriptive doesn't mean you get to change them at your whim.
And what do Magic Missiles look like Vic? Oh that's right they can look like whatever you want. Blue, green, mauve, balls, arrows, glowing mugs of ale. It doesn't modify the spellcraft (mechanical) check to identify but they can look however you like.
"It wasn't me that was rampaging through the town, killing all the orphans, it was a 6 headed beast able to pounce and destroy anyone with a single bite. I was nowhere near the town when that happened!"
Put another way: That's the sort of text that is put in for specific reasons. You don't start writing up something, and add that translucent bit on accident.
|
|
And what do Magic Missiles look like Vic? Oh that's right they can look like whatever you want. Blue, green, mauve, balls, arrows, glowing mugs of ale. It doesn't modify the spellcraft (mechanical) check but they can look however you like.
Yes, but the alterations you suggest with the synth summoner are trying to confuse folks on what respective knowledge check they are trying to make. Which is why this was intentionally limited in the options available to folks.
|
|
"It wasn't me that was rampaging through the town, killing all the orphans, it was a 6 headed beast able to pounce and destroy anyone with a single bite. I was nowhere near the town when that happened!"
1)Put on a suit of full-plate.
2)Add helmet.3)Massacre town.
4)Same result.
or
1) Greater Invisibility
2) Massacre town.
3) Same result.
or
1) Send in Eidolan.
2) Massacre town.
3) Swap out appearance of Eidolan.
4) Same result.
Personally, the translucent bit has always annoyed me a bit. In order to look normal, just add clothes. Can anyone give me a solid reason to make them translucent other than "Because the book said so?"
|
|
Defining it as only translucent was a mistake.Because... you don't like it?
I think it seems very un-fantasy for it to be a suit of goo. My synthesist wears the eidolon like armor (as written), but I prefer to think it looks like a stylized suit of black dragon scale armor complete with a helmet with dragon maw and clawed gauntlets. That feels more fantasy to me.
I certainly would not fight a judge at the table, but I have a much greater need to be happy with the character concept than the judge has to nitpick descriptive text during play. I am going to imagine the superhero costume (since that is how glaringly obvious the synthesist's eidolon should be) in a manner that appeals to me while fitting the setting of Golarion. If suit of goo fantasy is what Paizo was truly going for, then I hope that my departure from it doesn't disturb you so much that you cannot enjoy the game.
|
Chief Technical Officer
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Whether you think it's "fluff" or not, it is what it is. Fireballs begin as glowing, pea-sized beads, and detonate with a low roar. Fused eidolons are translucent. Just because those things are descriptive doesn't mean you get to change them at your whim.And what do Magic Missiles look like Vic? Oh that's right they can look like whatever you want. Blue, green, mauve, balls, arrows, glowing mugs of ale. It doesn't modify the spellcraft (mechanical) check to identify but they can look however you like.
The difference there is those interpretations don't actually contradict with what's written in the rulebook, so long as they still fit the description of "missiles of magical energy." Saying the synthesist's eidolon is *not* translucent *does* actually contradict what's written in the rulebook, and in PFS play, you don't get to make that call.