"The synthesist wears the eidolon like translucent, living armor."

[Mike Lindner]

Eric Clingenpeel wrote:

Bob Jonquet wrote:

I just wanna know if I can wear an Egger suit? :P

Would you really want to be that ugly and smelly, though?

Ugly? I've seen worse.

Scary? Not so much.

But, heck, yer creepin' me out man!!

It's like the movie Arachnaphobia. It's not actually that frightening, but think of Bob in a Egger suit and you still won't sleep for days.

[Lab_Rat]

CptTylorX wrote:

Just a question I didnt see answered. Is Edi still translucent, if you put a hat of disguse on it, or other weird things?

I would say yes. He is still translucent.

Disguise Self:

You make yourself - including clothing, armor, weapons, and equipment - look different. You can seem 1 foot shorter or taller, thin, fat, or in between. You cannot change your creature type (although you can appear as another subtype). Otherwise, the extent of the apparent change is up to you. You could add or obscure a minor feature or look like an entirely different person or gender.

So you could make yourself look like some other synthesis summoner. You could probably get away with changing what you look like within the synth-body. You can not, however, change the fact that you are a weird looking translucent outsider.

[Chris Mortika]

So, a hat of disguise couldn't make your eidolon look like a ghost -- that's an undead, a different type -- but it could make your bipedal eidolon look like a translucent angel or tiefling (outsiders of a different subtype).

[Dan Luckett]

Lab_Rat wrote:

CptTylorX wrote:

Just a question I didnt see answered. Is Edi still translucent, if you put a hat of disguse on it, or other weird things?

I would say yes. He is still translucent.

** spoiler omitted **

So you could make yourself look like some other synthesis summoner. You could probably get away with changing what you look like within the synth-body. You can not, however, change the fact that you are a weird looking translucent outsider.

I'm not so sure about that. Not saying you're absolutely wrong. Just that I'm not 100% sure you're right on that. I'd like to hear other arguments before I settle on a "process" in a fringe case like this.

[Lab_Rat]

Chris Mortika wrote:

So, a hat of disguise couldn't make your eidolon look like a ghost -- that's an undead, a different type -- but it could make your bipedal eidolon look like a translucent angel or tiefling (outsiders of a different subtype).

Duh! (Slaps self in forehead) Forgot about that (that synth-sum's where treated as outsiders). So as it would make you look like any outsider. In that case you could probably be non-transparent as long as you choose a non-transparent outsider. However, you still have to deal with the size issue. Since disguise self does not change your size category you might want to pick an outsider of your size.

[Dan Luckett]

Lab_Rat wrote:

Chris Mortika wrote:

So, a hat of disguise couldn't make your eidolon look like a ghost -- that's an undead, a different type -- but it could make your bipedal eidolon look like a translucent angel or tiefling (outsiders of a different subtype).

Duh! (Slaps self in forehead) Forgot about that (that synth-sum's where treated as outsiders). So as it would make you look like any outsider. In that case you could probably be non-transparent as long as you choose a non-transparent outsider. However, you still have to deal with the size issue. Since disguise self does not change your size category you might want to pick an outsider of your size.

This sounds right.

[Shivok]

if the gola is to make your eidolon suit not appear transluscent then a hat of disguise would do that trick.

[Peyote]

Shivok wrote:

if the gola is to make your eidolon suit not appear transluscent then a hat of disguise would do that trick.

Another thing is that even though it's supposed to be really obvious that your character is an eidelon, NPCs still have to make those Knowledge Planes checks to figure just what you are or must be familiar with your character to know their abilities.

So the average person has no idea what he's looking at when he's seeing a a regular Synthesis Summoner, other than there's a person inside. The hat of disguise should effectively hide the fact that it's a muppet suit to the average onlooker.

There's still the issue that not everyone will accept the refluffing done to make your concept work. Sure you can say that you're a possessed person who's inner ghost manifests and takes over their body, transforming it into a horrific monster or something, but as far as my character and my self in real life are concerned, you're a summoner pretending to be something you're not.

[Alexander_Damocles]

Refusing to acknowledge the fluff someone else took the time to create is poor form in my book. What does it hurt to let other people have a fun backstory?

[godsDMit]

I think what he is saying (please correct me if I am wrong) is that he doesnt see a difference some people's character 'concept' and reskinning.

[Dan Luckett]

Where does everyone keep getting this "Knowledge: the planes" rule to identify a summoner/eidolon from?

Dude with a glowing rune on his forehead, creature with a glowing rune on it's forehead...duh...it's a summoner/eidolon.

The other one that gets me with summoners, they ALWAYS look like fantastical creatures, never natural ones. I've seen people tell me they're using a llama, or they have a slave hireling and so on. I wasn't GMing at those times, but I was never the wiser as a player because the way these are roleplayed. People seem to forget, these are supposed to be obviously not of this world.

[Alexander_Damocles]

godsDMit wrote:

I think what he is saying (please correct me if I am wrong) is that he doesnt see a difference some people's character 'concept' and reskinning.

Ok. Ghost comes forth and appears to control you. Or, summoned eldritch abomination appears, surrounds you, and seems to control you. Whats the difference? And why do we feel upset if someone else has a cool or unique backstory? I would much rather play with a person who has the Voodoo priest angle than "Dwarf Axe Fighter #458".

[Peyote]

godsDMit wrote:

I think what he is saying (please correct me if I am wrong) is that he doesnt see a difference some people's character 'concept' and reskinning.

Right, what I meant is I see your character's gear and abilities mechanically and not the veneer you have to make it look like something else.

I'm not interested in taking away your back story, but all I really care about is the story at hand since it's the one that matters most.

Your character's actions and the story of the module are more important to me than what you want your character to be.

As a GM, as long as it's not against the rules or getting in the way of the game, I don't care.

[Alexander_Damocles]

Peyote wrote:

godsDMit wrote:

I think what he is saying (please correct me if I am wrong) is that he doesnt see a difference some people's character 'concept' and reskinning.

Right, what I meant is I see your character's gear and abilities mechanically and not the veneer you have to make it look like something else.

I'm not interested in taking away your back story, but all I really care about is the story at hand since it's the one that matters most.

Your character's actions and the story of the module are more important to me than what you want your character to be.

As a GM, as long as it's not against the rules or getting in the way of the game, I don't care.

I guess that is where we differ. I see how characters feel and act in a module are just as important as the story of the module itself. Our characters are the lens through which we experience the story. They *should* be unique and be allowed to be treated as such.

[Jason Sonia]

Vic Wertz wrote:

I just have a problem with people viewing this as "fluff that has an unintended mechanical consequence." I would never have come up with that interpretation, as it seems completely obvious to me that the mechanical distinction *is* intentional, that the goal of the phrase is to eliminate the idea that the eidolon can be used to disguise the synthesist as anything he wants, and that it's not actually fluff at all.

It's one thing to argue that that it could be developed in a way that allows for more flexibility (like Kerney's conjoined twin idea) while still preventing the eidolon from being a "disguise myself as any monster" kit, but trying to argue that it's only a mechanical element by accident is actually pretty insulting in my view. Our writers—and Jason more than many—understand how to write description that doesn't include unintended mechanical elements.

Well said.

[Chris Mortika]

Alexander_Damocles wrote:

I would much rather play with a person who has the Voodoo priest angle than "Dwarf Axe Fighter #458".

(gasp) That would be such a fun concept. Dwarf with a completely bored affect. "Hey there. I'm Dwarf Axe Fighter #458. You may have met my sister, #450. Oh, you'd like to see my 'Dwarfish accent'? "Hoot man, 'tis nae goot!" How's that for you? Would you like me to drink an ale, too?"

[Artanthos]

Daniel Luckett wrote:

The other one that gets me with summoners, they ALWAYS look like fantastical creatures, never natural ones.

Fantastical is an undefined term in pathfinder. One that is VERY subject to interpretation.

When Bilbo Baggins first met Gandalf, he considered both wizards and elves to be fantastical. The same could have been said of every other hobbit in his town. The same could be said of most commoners in Golarion.

What then would Bilbo Baggins, or a commoner in Golarion, think of a tiefling or Dragon Disciple? Both are fantastical, neither is going to cause widespread panic by walking into a town in Golarion.

High magic, while beyond the reach of commoners, is well known to exist in Golarion. All of it is fantastical to the commoners. Very little of the day-to-day life of adventurers is going to be understandable to the average farmer or craftsman.

Understand the difference between an Archon and a Synthesist that looks like an Archon? The average person would need a roadmap and a bottle of whiskey to survive the explanation. The wizard putting an Arcane Mark on the totem barbarian's forehead while he's passed out? My god, it's an eidolon, kill it.

[malanthropus]

Artanthos wrote:

Daniel Luckett wrote:

The other one that gets me with summoners, they ALWAYS look like fantastical creatures, never natural ones.

Fantastical is an undefined term in pathfinder. One that is VERY subject to interpretation.

.

Understand the difference between an Archon and a Synthesist that looks like an Archon? The average person would need a roadmap and a bottle of whiskey to survive the explanation. The wizard putting an Arcane Mark on the totem barbarian's forehead while he's passed out? My god, it's an eidolon, kill it.

You sir, are a genius! I think I might have to do that next time I play. Now, how to give him a translucent outer shell...