Mystic Theurge as a base class?

[unnambed]

Since Mystic Theurge does not really work as a prestige class (you lose casting levels among other things), has anyone thought about transforming it to a base class?

In theory, it should work. The Player would choose a divine spell-casting class (Cleric, Druid and etcetera) and an arcane spell-casting class (Wizard, Sorcerer and etcetera); they would gain the appropriate spell lists and spells-per-day (& spells known if applicable). This is all they would get! They gain no domains, no familiars, no hexes, no turning undead and no etcetera. (If the spells-per-day includes domain spells, the player does not get them!)

They want spells and they would get spells (including 9th level). They might still have multiple prerequisite attributes for their spells. They would only have access to simple weapons and no armor; they would be too busy learning magic both arcane and divine. I guess we could call this class the Theurgist.

Has anyone already done this?

[Gorbacz]

It has been done, and it's called Witch.

Your proposal is way too powerful. Domains, familiars, hexes are all icing on the cake, what makes full casters truly powerful is, well, full casting. Giving them double the package is just overwhelmingly overpowering.

[SmiloDan]

PANTHEURGE

BAB: +½
Good Saves: Will
Hit Dice: 1d6

Class Skills: Appraise, Craft, Fly, Heal, Knowledge arcana, Knowledge nature, Knowledge planes, Knowledge religion, Profession, Spellcraft, Use Magic Device.

Class Skills per Level: 2 + Intelligence modifier.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Pantheurges are proficient with the club, dagger, heavy crossbow, light crossbow, and quarterstaff, but not with any type of armor or shield. Armor interferes with a pantheurge's movements, which can cause his spells with somatic components to fail. A pantheurge with access to spells from a divine spell list does not need to use a divine focus if one is normally needed to cast that divine spell, but he casts such spells as arcane spells, and thus suffers the normal chance of arcane spell failure when casting such spells.

LEVEL ABILITY
1. 1st level spells, Cantrips and Orisons, First Spell List
2. Lesser Arcana
3. Second Spell List
4. 2nd level spells
5. Lesser Arcana
6. Third Spell List
7. 3rd level spells
8. Lesser Arcana
9. Fourth Spell List
10. 4th level spells
11. Lesser Arcana
12. 5th level spells
13. Greater Arcana
14. 6th level spells
15. Greater Arcana
16. 7th level spells
17. Greater Arcana
18. 8th level spells
19. Greater Arcana
20. 9th level spells, Ultimate Arcana

Spells:

Spells: A pantheurge casts arcane spells drawn from one of the following spell lists: cleric/oracle, druid, sorcerer/wizard, or witch. At 1st level, he has access to one of preceding lists of spells. At 3rd level, 6th level, and 9th level, he gains access to one additional spell list until at 9th level, when he has access to all four spell lists. The pantheurge may gain access to the spell lists of other classes by taking the appropriate lesser arcana or greater arcana.

A pantheurge must choose and prepare his spells ahead of time.
To learn, prepare, or cast a spell, the pantheurge must have an Intelligence score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a pantheurge’s spell is 10 + the spell level + the pantheurge's Intelligence modifier.

A pantheurge can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. His base daily spell allotment is given on Table: Pantheurge. In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Intelligence score (see Table: Ability Modifiers and Bonus Spells).
A pantheurge may know any number of spells. He must choose and prepare his spells ahead of time by getting 8 hours of sleep and spending 1 hour studying his spellbook. While studying, the pantheurge decides which spells to prepare.

Starting Spells (See Spellbooks below): A pantheurge begins play with a spellbook containing all 0-level spells from his first spell list plus three 1st-level spells of his choice from his first spell list. The pantheurge also selects a number of additional 1st-level spells equal to his Intelligence modifier to add to the spellbook, also from his first spell list. At each new pantheurge level, he gains two new spells of any spell level or levels that he can cast (based on his new pantheurge level) for his spellbook. Beginning at 3rd level, the pantheurge has access to multiple spell lists, and may select a spell from any spell list he has access to, as long as he is high enough level to cast the selected spell. Each time the pantheurge gains access to a new spell list, he also adds all 0-level spells from that spell list to his spell book. At any time, a pantheurge can also add spells found in other sources to his own. Theses sources include, but are not limited to, a witch’s familiar, a wizard’s spell book, and magical scrolls written by clerics, druids, oracle, sorcerers, witches, or wizards.

Spells Gained at a New Level: Pantheurges perform a certain amount of spell research between adventures. Each time a character attains a new pantheurge level, he gains two spells of his choice to add to his spellbook. The two free spells must be of spell levels he can cast and from a spell list he has access to.

Lesser Arcana (Ex, Sp, or Su): At levels 2, 5, 8, and 11, the pantheurge gains access to one of the following lesser arcana. These are additional class abilities of the pantheurge, many emulate the class abilities of other spellcasting classes or grant access to the spell lists of additional spellcasting classes. Each arcana can only be selected once.

Lesser Arcana:

Armored Mage (Ex): The pantheurge can cast arcane spells while wearing light armor with out suffering from arcane spell failure. He still suffers a chance of arcane spell failure when wearing medium or heavy armor.

Bloodline Magic (Su): The pantheurge gains access to the 1st level bloodline power of a single sorcerer bloodline, using his pantheurge level as his sorcerer level. The pantheurge must have access to the sorcerer/wizard spell list before selecting this lesser arcana.

Channel Energy (Su): The pantheurge may channel energy as a cleric of his pantheurge level a number of times per day equal to 1 + his Charisma modifier. The pantheurge must have access to the oracle/cleric spell list before selecting this lesser arcana.

Domain Magic (Ex, Sp, or Su): The pantheurge selects one cleric domain. The pantheurge gains granted powers of the selected domain, but does not gain any additional spells known or spells per day from the selected domain. The pantheurge must have access to the cleric/oracle spell list before selecting this arcana. Alternatively, the pantheurge can select one of the domains listed under the druid’s nature’s bond class feature if he has access to the druid spell list.

Extra Magic: The pantheurge adds 1 additional spell of the highest spell level he cast to his spell level, or 2 additional spells of a level at least 1 level below the highest level spell he can cast; these spells can be from the same or different spell lists, just as long as they are selected from spell lists the pantheurge has access to. The pantheurge may select this lesser arcana multiple times, each time learning different spells.

Familiar: The pantheurge gains a familiar as if his witch or wizard level were equal to his pantheurge level. The pantheurge must have access to either the sorcerer/wizard spell list or the witch spell list before selecting this lesser arcana.

Improved Bloodline Magic (Su): The pantheurge gains access to the 3rd level bloodline power of the sorcerer bloodline he selected when taking the Bloodline Magic arcana, using his pantheurge level as his sorcerer level. The pantheurge must have the Bloodline Magic lesser arcana and access to the sorcerer/wizard spell list before selecting this lesser arcana.

Item Creator: The pantheurge gains an item creation feat as a bonus feat. He must meet the requirements of the selected feat.

Lesser Spell Access: The pantheurge adds one of the following spell lists to his the number of spells he has access to: Paladin or Ranger. The pantheurge can prepare either paladin or ranger spells, but doubles the level of the paladin or ranger spell level when determining which spell slot the pantheurge uses to prepare a spell of that spell list. This lesser arcana can be selected multiple times; each time it is selected, the pantheurge selects the spell list of a different spell list. The pantheurge can use this lesser arcana to add any 4 level spell list to his selection of spell lists he can access.

Metamagic User: The pantheurge gains a metamagic feat as a bonus feat. He must meet the requirements of the selected feat.

Potent Magic: The pantheurge gains either the Spell Penetration feat or a Spell Focus feat of his choice.

Shielded Mage: The pantheurge can cast arcane spells while using a shield (but not a tower shield) with out suffering from arcane spell failure.

Specialty Scholar: The pantheurge selects one the wizard’s specialty schools and gains the special abilities associated with the selected specialty school, but does not gain any additional spells known, the ability to cast any additional spells per day, or an opposition school. The pantheurge must have access to the sorcerer/wizard spell list before selecting this lesser arcana.

Greater Arcana (Ex, Sp, or Su): At levels 13, 15, 17, and 19, the pantheurge gains access to one of the following greater arcana. He may choose a lesser arcana in place of greater arcana if he wishes.

Greater Arcana:

Greater Armored Mage (Ex): The pantheurge can cast arcane spells while wearing light or medium armor with out suffering from arcane spell failure. He still suffers a chance of arcane spell failure when wearing heavy armor. The pantheurge must have the Armored Mage lesser arcana before selecting this greater arcana.

Greater Bloodline Magic (Su): The pantheurge gains access to the 9th level bloodline power of the sorcerer bloodline he selected when taking the Bloodline Magic arcana, using his pantheurge level as his sorcerer level. At 15th level, the pantheurge also gains the 15th level sorcerer bloodline ability. The pantheurge must have the Bloodline Magic and Improved Bloodline Magic lesser arcana and access to the sorcerer/wizard spell list before selecting this greater arcana.

Greater Metamagic User: When the pantheurge applies a metamagic feat to a spell, he reduces the amount of the spell slot increase by 1 (minimum +1). The pantheurge must have the Metamagic User lesser arcana before selecting this greater arcana.

Greater Potent Magic: The pantheurge gains either the Greater Spell Penetration feat or a Greater Spell Focus feat of his choice; he must meet the requirements of the selected bonus feat. The pantheurge must have the Potent Magic lesser arcana before selecting this greater arcana.

Greater Spell Access: The pantheurge adds one of the following spell lists to his the number of spells he has access to: Alchemist, Bard, Inquisitor, or Summoner. This greater arcana can be selected multiple times; each time it is selected, the pantheurge selects the spell list of a different spell list. The pantheurge can use this lesser arcana to add any 6 level spell list to his selection of spell lists he can access.

Sudden Metamagic User: The pantheurge can apply a single metamagic feat he knows to a prepared spell without increasing its spell slot. Each metamagic feat he knows can only be used in this manner once per day, and a spell can only be affected by a single metamagic feat in this manner, although a spell can be prepared with a metamagic effect and have a different metamagic feat suddenly applied to it. The pantheurge must have the Metamagic User lesser arcana and the Greater Metamagic User greater arcana before selecting this greater arcana.

Ultimate Arcana (Ex, Sp, Su): At 20th level, the pantheurge gains one of the following ultimate arcana. He may choose 3 lesser arcana or 2 greater arcana in place of one of the following ultimate arcana.

Ultimate Arcana:

Combine Magic (Sp): The pantheurge can cast two spells at once as a full round action. These spells must be selected from different spell lists and have a normal casting time of 1 standard action or less.

Sudden Spell (Su): Once per day, the pantheurge can cast a spell he has prepared as an immediate action; this spell must have a casting time of 1 round or less. In addition, the pantheurge can prepare spells so he can cast them as an immediate action; the pantheurge must prepare the affected spells as if they were 5 levels higher, and the affected spells must have a normal casting time of 1 round or less. The pantheurge must have the Quicken Spell metamagic feat before selecting this ultimate arcana.

Ultimate Armored Mage (Ex): The pantheurge can cast arcane spells while wearing light, medium, or heavy armor with out suffering from arcane spell failure. The pantheurge must have the Armored Mage lesser arcana and the Greater Armored Mage greater arcana before selecting this ultimate arcana.

Spells per Day:

* 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
1 3 1 - - - - - - - -
2 3 2 - - - - - - - -
3 4 3 - - - - - - - -
4 4 3 1 - - - - - - -
5 4 4 2 - - - - - - -
6 4 4 3 - - - - - - -
7 4 4 3 1 - - - - - -
8 4 4 4 2 - - - - - -
9 4 4 4 3 - - - - - -
10 4 4 4 3 1 - - - - -
11 4 4 4 4 2 - - - - -
12 4 4 4 4 2 1 - - - -
13 4 4 4 4 3 2 - - - -
14 4 4 4 4 3 2 1 - - -
15 4 4 4 4 4 3 2 - - -
16 4 4 4 4 4 3 2 1 - -
17 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 2 - -
18 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 2 1 -
19 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 2 -
20 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 2 1

Spellbooks and stuff:

Spellbooks
A pantheurge must study his spellbook each day to prepare his spells. He cannot prepare any spell not recorded in his spellbook, except for read magic, which all pantheurges can prepare from memory.
A pantheurge begins play with a spellbook containing all 0-level spells from his first spell list, plus three 1st-level spells of his choice. The pantheurge also selects a number of additional 1st-level spells equal to his Intelligence modifier to add to the spellbook; these spells must also be from his first spell list. At each new pantheurge level, he gains two new spells of any spell level or levels that he can cast (based on his new pantheurge level, including any additional spell lists he has gained access to) for his spellbook. At any time, a pantheurge can also add spells found in other sources to his own.

Arcane Spells and Armor
Armor restricts the complicated gestures required while casting any spell that has a somatic component. The armor and shield descriptions list the arcane spell failure chance for different armors and shields.
If a spell doesn't have a somatic component, an arcane spellcaster can cast it with no arcane spell failure chance while wearing armor. Such spells can also be cast even if the caster's hands are bound or he is grappling (although concentration checks still apply normally). The metamagic feat Still Spell allows a spellcaster to prepare or cast a spell without the somatic component at one spell level higher than normal. This also provides a way to cast a spell while wearing armor without risking arcane spell failure.

[Kyras Ausks]

just what i would do in flavor a pathfinder would give them a bonus feat every other level along the lines of of the wizards to show a intense study of spells to put them on the power closer to a core class

[ShadowcatX]

I would recommend taking a look at the magister from super genius games. Your mystic theurge idea is far too powerful.

[Caedwyr]

The Magister has been suggested in the past as a good Mystic Theurge base class.

[Cheapy]

Thread should probably be in ... uh...Homebrew? Conversions? Not sure, but not General Discussion.

The awesome Super Genius Games put out the Magister class that can select from two spell lists, allowing for this concept. Well, the link points to the Magus, but that's because this book came out before UM did, so they plan on changing it to the Magister in a bit.

You can also find the class here.

[Cheapy]

Oh damnit guys.

...at least my post is bigger.

[Kyras Ausks]

Cheapy wrote:

Oh damnit guys.

...at least my post is bigger.

you no that never counts

[hogarth]

Gorbacz wrote:

It has been done, and it's called Witch.

Even though the Witch is not quite the same, that's what I tend to recommend to people who want to play a Mystic Theurge.

[Galnörag]

If I were to build such a class I would probably penalize both casting progressions by 1. So that you suffer the downsides of being a prepared caster, and the delay of a spontaneous caster. Only to moderate the awesomeness of getting both. Otherwise I agree, no arcane bond, no arcane discoveries/bonus feats, no channel energy, no domains, less skills on the list, and maybe 0+skills per level. I would leave them with the bad BAD, and only good will save.

Basically you can use a club and a HELLUVA lot of magic.

[FallofCamelot]

What do people thing about the Mystic Theurge requiring just 1st level spells in divine and arcane so you can pick the class up at 3rd level?

[Kyras Ausks]

i really don't think have every spell (kinda) is that powerful mainly because you might know 1000 spell but still only cast one as turn.

[Kolokotroni]

I would also recommend the magister/magus from super genius games. Its a great class and if you want a Mystic Theurge type of class, it is by far your best bet.

[ShadowcatX]

Kyras Ausks wrote:

i really don't think have every spell (kinda) is that powerful mainly because you might know 1000 spell but still only cast one as turn.

It doubles your "stamina" as a caster since you're casting off of two lists. Also it ensures you can have exactly the spell you need available since spell slots aren't as precious. It helps you nova as you have more high level slots available.

[unnambed]

Gorbacz wrote:

Your proposal is way too powerful. Domains, familiars, hexes are all icing on the cake, what makes full casters truly powerful is, well, full casting. Giving them double the package is just overwhelmingly overpowering.

(Dang! I didn't expect this much response this fast.)

I disagree.

If there is an advantage, the theurgist does not get it. If there is a disadvantage, the theurgist gets it.

Remember when Sorcerers were first introduced? They had none of the updates they have now. THAT is what the Theurgist would get if s/he chose Sorcerer as her/his arcane class.

I am faimiliar with the Magister class. I like it, too. I don't understand why it was necessary.

[ShadowcatX]

unnambed wrote:

Gorbacz wrote:

Your proposal is way too powerful. Domains, familiars, hexes are all icing on the cake, what makes full casters truly powerful is, well, full casting. Giving them double the package is just overwhelmingly overpowering.

(Dang! I didn't expect this much response this fast.)

I disagree.

If there is an advantage, the theurgist does not get it. If there is a disadvantage, the theurgist gets it.

Remember when Sorcerers were first introduced? They had none of the updates they have now. THAT is what the Theurgist would get if s/he chose Sorcerer as her/his arcane class.

I am faimiliar with the Magister class. I like it, too. I don't understand why it was necessary.

First, the sorcerer is unable to know the multitude of spells that the wizard could know making it weaker than the wizard. Then the wizard gets its higher level spells a level early making it more powerful than the sorcerer. The wizard uses a superior casting stat. Finally, the wizard could have as many spell slots as a sorcerer, more on odd levels. (Focused specialist.) Finally the class had absolutely no class features. All of that together is what made the original sorcerer bad.

Meanwhile your class proposal can know all wizard and cleric spells, gets spells at odd levels, has 2 sets of spells per day. All for the low cost of class features and a bit of mad.

If you really want to find out if this is balanced, go up to a half dozen wizard players and ask them if they'd trade their class features (feats, arcane bond, and school powers) for twice as many spells known and spells per day. The answer will universally be yes.

The magister was made so that people who wanted to play a mystic theurge type character could do so from level 1 without being massively over powered. (Though to be honest, its probably a bit over powered compared to sorcerer.)

[unnambed]

Cheapy wrote:

Thread should probably be in ... uh...Homebrew? Conversions? Not sure, but not General Discussion.

I'm not trying to build a new class. I'm asking a question.

[ShadowcatX]

unnambed wrote:

Cheapy wrote:

Thread should probably be in ... uh...Homebrew? Conversions? Not sure, but not General Discussion.

I'm not trying to build a new class. I'm asking a question.

Cheapy's right none the less. You're asking a question about homebrewing a class. It should be in homebrew.

[Caedwyr]

A while back, I asked Owen why you would want to play a sorcerer if the magister class was available. He said the following

Owen K.C. Stephens wrote:

Caedwyr wrote:

Something I'm a bit curious after looking the Magister over is why you would choose to play a sorcerer over this class. From what I can see, the Magister basically includes all of the sorcerer class features as selectable options, and the Magister also gets additional features on top of these. Am I missing something, or mis-reading the Magister class?

The main thing a magister with a bloodline lacks compared to a sorcerer is a bonus spell known at each spell level, and eschew materials. Since those spells are gained when they are the highest level spell either class knows, each one would take a feat (Expadned Arcana) for the Magsiter to catch up to the sorcerer in Spells Known. When you add Eschew Materials itself, that's ten feats of spellpower a sorcerer has and a magister doesn't.

[EWHM]

I've done a homebrew MT class before---think I even posted the basic outline. Here's the fundamental principle
4 levels equals 3 levels of wizard casting and 3 levels of cleric casting
Or in the language of 1st/2nd edition multiclassing

4 levels of pure mage or pure cleric equals 3/3 C/Mu

From there it's just a matter of tweaking the fluff and minor abilities.

[unnambed]

Galnörag wrote:

So that you suffer the downsides of being a prepared caster, and the delay of a spontaneous caster. Only to moderate the awesomeness of getting both. Otherwise I agree, no arcane bond, no arcane discoveries/bonus feats, no channel energy, no domains, less skills on the list, and maybe 0+skills per level. I would leave them with the bad BAD, and only good will save.

Basically you can use a club and a HELLUVA lot of magic.

Exactly!

If you're the party's healer, remember that you can not spontaneously cast healing spells.

Also, you better use many buff spells on yourself often. Otherwise, you maybe facing a monster with just a robe, a club and a smile (if you're spells don't work, you're out of spells and etcetera).

[unnambed]

Kyras Ausks wrote:

i really don't think have every spell (kinda) is that powerful mainly because you might know 1000 spell but still only cast one as turn.

Excellent point!

[unnambed]

FallofCamelot wrote:

What do people thing about the Mystic Theurge requiring just 1st level spells in divine and arcane so you can pick the class up at 3rd level?

I like the idea.

[ShadowcatX]

unnambed wrote:

Kyras Ausks wrote:

i really don't think have every spell (kinda) is that powerful mainly because you might know 1000 spell but still only cast one as turn.

Excellent point!

It appears that you only want posts that support your point of view. If that's the case, then what's the point of asking the question?

[unnambed]

ShadowcatX wrote:

unnambed wrote:

Cheapy wrote:

Thread should probably be in ... uh...Homebrew? Conversions? Not sure, but not General Discussion.

I'm not trying to build a new class. I'm asking a question.

Cheapy's right none the less. You're asking a question about homebrewing a class. It should be in homebrew.

You may be right.

If someone wants to homebrew this class, be my guest. I do not.

I wondered what people thought of this idea. Many think it would be overpowered. I am unsure.

[unnambed]

ShadowcatX wrote:

It appears that you only want posts that support your point of view. If that's the case, then what's the point of asking the question?

Some post's are easier to answer quickly. My lunch break is over now. I will have to respond to others later.

Sorry if this was the impression I was giving.

[Gorbacz]

unnambed wrote:

Gorbacz wrote:

Your proposal is way too powerful. Domains, familiars, hexes are all icing on the cake, what makes full casters truly powerful is, well, full casting. Giving them double the package is just overwhelmingly overpowering.

(Dang! I didn't expect this much response this fast.)

I disagree.

If there is an advantage, the theurgist does not get it. If there is a disadvantage, the theurgist gets it.

Remember when Sorcerers were first introduced? They had none of the updates they have now. THAT is what the Theurgist would get if s/he chose Sorcerer as her/his arcane class.

I am faimiliar with the Magister class. I like it, too. I don't understand why it was necessary.

Under your proposal, a Wiz/Clr combo would be outrageously powerful due to being able to have the access to every spell out there, pretty much and cast an insane amount of them per day. Nobody would play a Sorcerer, or any other full caster class.

[Ceres Cato]

Gorbacz wrote:

Under your proposal, a Wiz/Clr combo would be outrageously powerful due to being able to have the access to every spell out there, pretty much and cast an insane amount of them per day. Nobody would play a Sorcerer, or any other full caster class.

I disagree with that. You might want to play a Sorcerer or any other class for that matter if it fits better with your character concept. Not every backstory and concept needs the best class available out there. Your character needs to fit with the theme. Sometimes (or often) another full caster class suits your idea better.

[unnambed]

ShadowcatX wrote:

First, the sorcerer is unable to know the multitude of spells that the wizard could know making it weaker than the wizard. Then the wizard gets its higher level spells a level early making it more powerful than the sorcerer. The wizard uses a superior casting stat. Finally, the wizard could have as many spell slots as a sorcerer, more on odd levels. (Focused specialist.) Finally the class had absolutely no class features. All of that together is what made the original sorcerer bad.

.

.
.

Don't forget that the Eschew Materials feat was not free. The Sorcerer also could not replace lower spells at higher levels. Let's just not lump them under class features; they can really make a difference.

(Thankfully, it is a slow day.)

[Gorbacz]

Ceres Cato wrote:

Gorbacz wrote:

Under your proposal, a Wiz/Clr combo would be outrageously powerful due to being able to have the access to every spell out there, pretty much and cast an insane amount of them per day. Nobody would play a Sorcerer, or any other full caster class.

I disagree with that. You might want to play a Sorcerer or any other class for that matter if it fits better with your character concept. Not every backstory and concept needs the best class available out there. Your character needs to fit with the theme. Sometimes (or often) another full caster class suits your idea better.

That's all cool and well until the moment when you discover that the guy next to you can contribute 200% more to the party than you can.

[unnambed]

Gorbacz wrote:

Under your proposal, a Wiz/Clr combo would be outrageously powerful due to being able to have the access to every spell out there, pretty much and cast an insane amount of them per day. Nobody would play a Sorcerer, or any other full caster class.

.

.
.
He'd be a glass cannon for sure. He'd also have restrictions others would not have.

[wraithstrike]

unnambed wrote:

Gorbacz wrote:

Your proposal is way too powerful. Domains, familiars, hexes are all icing on the cake, what makes full casters truly powerful is, well, full casting. Giving them double the package is just overwhelmingly overpowering.

(Dang! I didn't expect this much response this fast.)

I disagree.

If there is an advantage, the theurgist does not get it. If there is a disadvantage, the theurgist gets it.

Remember when Sorcerers were first introduced? They had none of the updates they have now. THAT is what the Theurgist would get if s/he chose Sorcerer as her/his arcane class.

I am faimiliar with the Magister class. I like it, too. I don't understand why it was necessary.

The MT gets good later one. The problem is that you have to wait a long to reap the benefits. You have to take the good with the bad. Other than that the bard or witch is a fair substitute. Full access to divine, and arcane spell lists should not be done. That is one reason why the archivist from 3.5 was so good. Well it did not have full access to the arcane spell list, but it had a access to some good spells.

[ReconstructorFleet]

If you examine the Witch spell list, it IS basically Mystic Theurge: The Base Class. Then they gave it Hexes to give it a bit more oomph. :(

[unnambed]

Many feel the Theurgist would be way too powerful. They are probably right.

Thanks to everyone that answered.

[ShadowcatX]

ReconstructorFleet wrote:

If you examine the Witch spell list, it IS basically Mystic Theurge: The Base Class.

It feels like it, but that's still not quite right. A witch misses out on many key spells from both spell lists (or gets them at a later level), but more importantly has only one set of spell slots. A mystic theurge has 2 sets of spell slots.

[Ughbash]

One very elegant solution for Mystic Theurge I saw on Upper Krusts site years ago was a Feat.

Basically (from my memory) you multi classed as wizard and cleric and added half of your other class to caster level including what spells you got.

So at 20th level if you were a 10th cleric/10th wizard you cast spells adn had access to spells as a 15/15 which exacly matched wizard 5/cleric 5/MT 10.

If instead you went wizard14/cleric 6 you had spells as a Wizard 17/Cleric 13 just as if you had gone wizard 7/cleric 3/MT 10.

It added some flexibility to how you built your character.

[Kolokotroni]

Ughbash wrote:

One very elegant solution for Mystic Theurge I saw on Upper Krusts site years ago was a Feat.

Basically (from my memory) you multi classed as wizard and cleric and added half of your other class to caster level including what spells you got.

So at 20th level if you were a 10th cleric/10th wizard you cast spells adn had access to spells as a 15/15 which exacly matched wizard 5/cleric 5/MT 10.

If instead you went wizard14/cleric 6 you had spells as a Wizard 17/Cleric 13 just as if you had gone wizard 7/cleric 3/MT 10.

It added some flexibility to how you built your character.

Again I strongly recommend the magister, you would have a full caster worth of spell slots, and would have access to all spells from one list, and all spells on the other except for 9th level spells, though there is even a feat that would allow that as well if you wanted.

[ReconstructorFleet]

ShadowcatX wrote:

ReconstructorFleet wrote:

If you examine the Witch spell list, it IS basically Mystic Theurge: The Base Class.

It feels like it, but that's still not quite right. A witch misses out on many key spells from both spell lists (or gets them at a later level), but more importantly has only one set of spell slots. A mystic theurge has 2 sets of spell slots.

:( as awesome as it would be to have a class with 2 sets of spell slots...that's REALLY powerful.

[Banatine]

When you're combining the spell lists of multiple separate classes, there HAS to be severe restrictions, in order to stop any one class rendering all the others obsolete. The wizard will be very upset if you make 'one spellcaster to rule them all'!

Also, as others have suggested, Super Genius' Magister class really is the way to go for what you're after.

Be you a church appointed archmage, an apprentice who loved his first 'religious experience' with a Calistrian priestess so much he converted, or a scholar who yearns to understand all aspects of the great mysteries of magic and who sees simple Wizards and Clerics as 'lacking in ambition'...

Take the fluff as you will, but i doubt you will come closer to the mark in terms of balance than the Magister did for what you are asking. I've had one in my campaign before, and as the only caster in the party, his varied spell access was invaluable!