My question is: Could an alchemist use a bomb as a sling´s missile?
The rule is: "...As with an extract or bomb, a mutagen that is not in an alchemist’s possession becomes inert until an alchemist picks it up again."
My personal opinion is: The bomb still in possession of the alchemist, and the bomb is active.
If that is possible, the new attack has a range of 50´, but the alchemist lost the benefits of the feat "Throw anything" (the +1 circumstance bonus on attack rolls made with thrown splash weapons)
The form of the bomb isn´t a problem, because the vial doesn´t have an specific form.
The only problem is this discovery, which provides the sort of thing you're looking for.
Personally, I think it's dumb to require the discovery for a sling... slings traditionally delivered clay incendiary jars.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Malignor wrote: The only problem is this discovery, which provides the sort of thing you're looking for.
Personally, I think it's dumb to require the discovery for a sling... slings traditionally delivered clay incendiary jars.
That discovery specifically calls out bows, crossbows, and firearms while not mentioning slings, so I don't see it as ruling out the possibility of using a sling.
I'd probably allow it, since you are trading accuracy for range.
So what's the advantage of the discovery, when you can just use a sling and call it a day?
To justify the existence of that discovery, it needs to provide some advantage.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
It does, it increases the range of the bomb and gives you the damage of whatever the projectile is. It's not a bad discovery for, say, sniping at lower levels, but loses its gusto later on because it can't be used with fast bombs.
But if you can use a sling without needing a discovery, you can already do 1d3+strength at a base range of 50', and deliver the bomb.
With a +3 strength, that's same damage as a light crossbow or longbow, so all you're getting now is some range.
... I guess there is some advantage to the discovery in the increased flexibility of options, higher range and higher base damage...
I guess I can see the point.
... which is good! Because I liked the idea anyway, but was just thinking it was a balance issue. The alchemist in my group will be choked when I tell him :)
It would also be a move action to load the bomb into the sling.
A launching crossbow could work.
The bad part is that you go from touch ac to normal ac :(
If your DM allows it to work with slings (I would), it'd be a cool combo. Takes a move action to load it, but being a halfling with warslinger takes care of that. And is damn cool. It'd still hit touch AC. Whether you're chucking it or hurling it from a sling, the bomb still explodes on impact, so armor and shield wouldn't protect you either way.
Malignor wrote: So what's the advantage of the discovery, when you can just use a sling and call it a day?
To justify the existence of that discovery, it needs to provide some advantage.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/prone-shooter-combat
Yes, is a great combo. And very useful with the Force Bomb, against flying creatures (think about that)
Responding some replies:
- The ranged attack with a bomb-and-sling IS a touch attack. The objetive is break de flask, and deliver the liquid.
- The impact´s extra damage: I don´t sure about the 1d3+Str, because the flask is very fragile. A projectile must be solid and resistent, to try to penetrate the objetive (like a rock). In the best, it deal a Non-lethal damage.(*)
- The discovery Explossive Missile: Is a good discovery, if you apply it to a +2 arrow, for example, an give it to the rogue-archer of the group. But, it is to be use WITH a missile. In my case, I try to use THE bomb in the place of a missile.(*)
*Note: If you think, the sling is a primitive weapon, that can throw practically whatever you put in the leather. And in my personal experience, a little ballon full of water a some practice are VERY efective (and don´t harm... too much).
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
The problem with the arrow example you pose, Maese, is that it's a standard action to infuse, load, and fire, so you can't give it to the rogue. It doesn't work that way.
I'm fairly certain you can't load the bomb into a sling anyway, but that could be me. I don't know of any rule that would disallow it but then again, it doesn't say you can either. This combo would make a halfling bomber extremely dangerous to every scenario.
Matt Stich wrote: This combo would make a halfling bomber extremely dangerous to every scenario. In Fact, Try to deal with a Goblin Alchemist(Bomber).
I was replying to the explosive missiles entry.
As far as using a bomb as a sling stone, I'd say no. Why? Because something like that should be a discovery, not something you get for free.
The loss of the throwing feat is overwhelmed by the potential magical bonuses on the sling. Pass.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Exactly Magicdealer. It's too much to allow without having ot spend some kind of resource on it. Make it like "Sling bomber: You can load a bomb into a sling" or w/e.
Magicdealer wrote: I was replying to the explosive missiles entry.
As far as using a bomb as a sling stone, I'd say no. Why? Because something like that should be a discovery, not something you get for free.
The loss of the throwing feat is overwhelmed by the potential magical bonuses on the sling. Pass.
Let me see. You have 2 real losses, 1 pottential lost, and only 1 benefit.
You lost:
1- +1 circumstance bonus on attack rolls
2- 1d3+Str damage on the missile (Because the flask don´t make damage with the impact)
3- ALL the others benefits that you can gain with a especial bullet or magic aplied to a bullet.
You win:
1- Range 50´
See the point?
In addition, I don´t think that if you find a creative form to do something that match with the existent rules, it don´t apply for the caress of a non-existent feat. The feats gives bonuses or reduce penalties, in non-conventional actions (for example, trip, sunder, dirty trick, etc.). In cases like this, you can think in a penalty for the unusual of the action (a -2 circumstancial, for example).
I don't think you can do this with other splash weapons normally so I'll vote no per the rules.
Cool idea, yes for the home table, but outside of the scope of the rules certainly - and it really takes some of the cool out of the Explosive Missile.
Perhaps you could just modify the Explosive Missile Discovery to work with slings?
"Bombs are unstable, and if not used in the round they are created, they degrade and become inert—their method of creation prevents large volumes of explosive material from being created and stored."
The line about preventing explosive material from being created and stored leads me to believe the intent is you must throw the bomb in the same round that you create it. The additional line about being inert states that like an extract the bomb becomes inert if used or carried by anyone else. It does not say like an extract bombs reactivate once picked back up. Also, even if you never let it go, the bomb would still become inert the next round.
To fire a bomb from a sling, you need to create the bomb, load it into the sling, and fire the sling all within 1 round.
Now if you had the Delay Bomb discovery, its a different story. A delayed bomb doesn't become inert, therefore you can create it in round 1 and fire it in round 2. Provided of course that your DM allows you to fire a bomb vial from the sling. A Flask Thrower from AA might be a better option, range is only 30, but there is no doubt that it can fire a bomb vial.
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BUT, if you load the flask, AND THEN infuse the bomb?
Load a bullet in a sling is only cover one face of the flask with letter, and you can hold the strings in the fingers, without problem.
*leather, not letter XD
In addition, another penalty: 1 move action to load the vial-pre-bomb, and later, the standard action to infuse and throw it,
Firing the Sling & Infusing the Bomb are both standard actions.
If you can find a way to do both in 1 round, before the bomb goes inert, then you have a pretty good argueemnt to present to your DM.
Keep in mind though, that if your DM allows you to do it, so can your enemies...
I´m my DM and player =P
We turn every 4 to 8 session XD
WAIT!!!!!!
Infuse de bomb is a standar ACTION! Throw an object is ANOTHER standar action!
That is another question that I had!
Or is a Errata that don´t appear?
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Maese RoD wrote: BUT, if you load the flask, AND THEN infuse the bomb?
Load a bullet in a sling is only cover one face of the flask with letter, and you can hold the strings in the fingers, without problem.
Doesn't work that way. Has to be viable ammo to be loaded, and then slung. You can't load half the bomb then the next half next round or whenever.
Technically, it is a standard action to draw the components of, create & throw a bomb. Throwing a bomb uses the Throw Splash Weapon rules. Firing a sling is a ranged attack using a sling. You cannot use the special attack Throw Splash Weapon with a sling so your question is really, can I use a bomb as ammo for my sling. I would say yes, provided you have the delay bomb discovery as that discovery allows you to make the bomb in one round, and fire it from the sling the next. Otherwise your bomb would become inert before you could fire it from the sling.
Maese RoD wrote: My question is: Could an alchemist use a bomb as a sling´s missile? You might want to check out this article on the Kobold Quarterly webpage. Sling Flask
Hopefully, that's helpful.
Maese RoD wrote:
Let me see. You have 2 real losses, 1 pottential lost, and only 1 benefit.
You lost:
1- +1 circumstance bonus on attack rolls
2- 1d3+Str damage on the missile (Because the flask don´t make damage with the impact)
3- ALL the others benefits that you can gain with a especial bullet or magic aplied to a bullet.
You win:
1- Range 50´
See the point?
You lose - +1 circumstance bonus on the attack roll.
You gain - the ability to use a masterwork sling, granting a +1 bonus on the attack roll. Plus up to +10 in magical enhancements on the sling.
Sling Win.
You lose - 1d3+Str from the sling damage
You gain - all the d6's of the bomb damage.
Sling Win.
You lose - 20 foot throwing range
You gain - 50 foot sling increment
Sling win.
See the point?
Here's the thing - if you can switch to a sling, the ONLY thing you're losing out on is the throw anything feat. You're still doing the same damage you would have if you had thrown it. You're getting better range.
And that +1 is made up with a masterwork weapon. Then, everything OVER that (magical enhancements) makes the sling BETTER than throwing it. Absolutely. In every category.
No, trying to use a sling for this is nothing but cheese.
I can already see it now. The halfling slinging alchemist who uses his racial trait to reload as a free action, grabbing the extra bombs feat and just going to town with his +5 sling of whatever.
FIRST: TRAITS ARE OPTIONAL. Indeed, if you take 2 Traits, is like a feat. If you give free traits, you are giving FREE FEATS. Then, if you giveme 2 free traits, a want to use this traits to attack with the sling like I want.
You can have a bracelet/armlet/glove/googles/amulet/boots/whatever with the same magical +10 enhancements to range attack. Is a problem of cost. Any item +10 should cost at least 2^10 x 1000 po.
This slings +10 is an aberration in any case, using the bomb or not. The problem is the item, not the bomb. With that sling, you can deliver practically whatever you want. A huge item reduced by magic (it REALLY hurts), a gliff, a magic triggered object, a rage-barbarian-in-a-bottle, a bugs-bunny hole... bla bla bla...
When you campare, you HAVE to compare similars situations.
The only real benefits, is the range 50´. (An you forgot eliminate the possibilitie of a magic ammo)
And please: The limit is the bomb-limit of the alchemist, vs, for example:
Magic in the wizard´s arsenal (including wands, if you pretent include imte´s cost)
The UNLIMITED rogues´s sneaks attacks (with the same damage of the bomb, and is free) <--- (But IT IS another discution)
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(I Trace a line in the thread)
Quote: I can already see it now. The halfling slinging alchemist who uses his racial trait to reload as a free action, grabbing the extra bombs feat and just going to town with his +5 sling of whatever. With new books and issues in store, is a matter of time: EVERY SYSTEM ALIVE, TEND TO CRASH (That´s the reason why every DM dicede what material use in his/her own table. Don´t try to stop the enthropy.
Quote: You might want to check out this article on the Kobold Quarterly webpage. Sling Flask
Hopefully, that's helpful.
<-- I like this feat, but a like to play with cores and one or two expantions. Thanks you for the link.
[qoute]
Technically, it is a standard action to draw the components of, create & throw a bomb. Throwing a bomb uses the Throw Splash Weapon rules. Firing a sling is a ranged attack using a sling. You cannot use the special attack Throw Splash Weapon with a sling so your question is really, can I use a bomb as ammo for my sling. I would say yes, provided you have the delay bomb discovery as that discovery allows you to make the bomb in one round, and fire it from the sling the next. Otherwise your bomb would become inert before you could fire it from the sling. This is a good answer. Indeed, I imagine another possibilities, like using the feat Fast bombs, but creating only one bomb (is a FULL ROUND ACTION, in place of a Standard Action for the attack). Indeed, I was thinking in the possibility of an increment of time (1 standard action for INFUSE+TRHOWBYHAND //TO// 1 full round action INFUSE+THROWWITHSLING, but without a feat (dthis introduce a new point: lose the movement), but the FAST BOMB feat is a good option.
In both cases, the alchemist gain an extra use for a previous very useful feat, IN BOOK (no house rules), and don´t have to take another feat.
OK, I´m satisfied. mmm... wait! One last question... Where can I buy this sling +10? =P
Actually, no, you can't have an item that grants bonuses to thrown weapons unless you talk your dm into letting you craft some custom items.
About the best you can do is a nice belt of dex for the bonus to hit.
While traits are optional, many dm's use them. For those that don't, you can always grab the additional traits feat. Indeed, they are a part of PFS.
However, I do like how you try to ignore my point by throwing up straw men. Carry on.
Side note - "it's a matter of time" is not a good argument for anything, ever. Just because it may or may not occur is no reason to assume it's a good thing and try to quicken it's arrival. If you like to play with core and maybe one or two expansions as you said, then you'll never have to worry about it anyhow. Which brings up the question of why you made the comment in the first place.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Besides, Maese, while traits are optional, racial traits are not. Warslinger is a racial trait and if you're using the alchemist, you're using the APG, which warslinger is a racial trait for halflings.
If you are using RAW, Fast Bombs would not allow you to fire bombs from a sling. The Fast Bombs discovery simply allows you to, as a full round action, create and throw as many bombs as your BAB will allow.
You could creat your own house rule that allows someone with FB to create one bomb as a free action. Then use a MA to load the sling and your SA to fire the sling. But that would be up to your group to create such a rule.
As you asked this question in the rules section of the forum house rules should not be taken into consideration. So the answer remains, Fast Bombs would not help your cause. Delay Bomb would, but it would take 2 rounds to fire the bomb from the sling because you need 2 standard actions and one move action. 1 SA to create the delayed bomb, a MA to load it into the sling, and a second SA to fire the sling.
Edit: Privided you already house ruled that a bomb can be used as sling ammunition.
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HippieKilla082 wrote: A Flask Thrower from AA might be a better option, range is only 30, but there is no doubt that it can fire a bomb vial. At the very least, I would suggest that the existence of the Flask Thrower (also in Gnomes of Golarion) would suggest that you CAN'T do so with a normal sling.
Magicdealer wrote: Actually, no, you can't have an item that grants bonuses to thrown weapons unless you talk your dm into letting you craft some custom items. Read the rules about create a magical item, and the extra cost for wear it in a non-related slot (but if you use an slot in the arm,is a related slot)
Actually, a sling +10 isn´t a item booked. Is a custom item. Like a magical ammo.
If you compare, with an magical sling you can use a magical ammo, with special matetials, and that overwhelms a bomb.
(For example, an adamantine ammo +10 with the property of returnin)
Then, the damage with the ammo, is: 1d3+Str +5 + 4 extra properties (like 4 DIFERENTS 1d6 element damage) + Returning + Proporties of Adamantine + Poison (you can use an ammo with spikes to deliver the poison)
(And a Alchemist have a HUGE Str, beause in lvl 4 she can obtain a bonus of +10 in her Str, with her alchemy).
A alchemis of 4th lvl can use his mutage to obtain +4 (alchemical) in str, enlarger person to obtain +2 (size modifier), and bull strength potion +4 (enhance).
If you have a 10 in STR and a 18 in INT, then you have a 20 for at less, 4 minutes (40 rounds).
Then, you can fire your 1d3+5+5+1d6fire+1d6acid+1d6electricity+1d6cold returning adamantine poisoned ammo, an take it back... 38 times, may be?
To hit
That is 1d3+4d6+10 AND THE IT IS CAPABLE TO DEAL CRITICAL DAMAGE (2x1+4d6+20) VS, 2d6+4 from a bomb fired with your sling +10.
If you calcuate the average value:
(1*3+1*1+4*1+4*6)/2 +10 = 26 HP (critical hit: 38)
(2*1 + 2*6)/2 +4 = 11 HP
At the same cost, and same conditions.
But, a +10 item is a very high lvl item. Let see it in a 20 lvl character:
The damage with the bombo is: 10d6+4 (Average:39)
With the grand mutagen discovery, your str is: 10 + 14 = 24 ... then: is a +7 bonus to damage.
The damage with the magical ammo is: 1d3+4d6+12 (Average: 28, with a critical of 42)
AND, in lvl 20 you have a limit of: 20+INT bomb (in this case, 24 bombs)
AND, if you calculate 20 minutes of spells effect (at less), you have 200 shoots.
The amount of damage (only vs 1 creater) in average, is:
bomb: 39 x 24 = 936 HP
ammo: 28 x 200 = 5600 HP + 5% of critical possibility: 180 EXTRA HP damage: 5780 HP dmg.
mmm... That is vs 1 creater.
BUT! the creature should have a elemental resistence vs your bomb of 20/element, in 7th lvl... but what creater have a 20 damage reduction against adamantine in this lvl?
(F+!!, I HATE THOSE CREATURES!)
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Ok, let see now the source of GP that have a Alchemist lvl 20: Phylosophal stone: 50.000 gp/month.
He HAS the capacity of buy both, the sling +10 and the magical ammo. And can stack the bonefits of both. But, when she use a bomb with the sling, she have only the benefits of the slings.
BEWARE! power of maths!
Conclusion: load a sling with a bomb, change accuracy AND damage, for range.
Magicdealer wrote: However, I do like how you try to ignore...
<- I really HAVEN´T TIME to explain all things that you or other users wrote. Sry for my full of obligation live =P
Magicdealer wrote: Side note - "it's a matter of time" is not a good argument for anything, ever. Just because it may or may not occur is no reason to assume it's a good thing and try to quicken it's arrival. If you like to play with core and maybe one or two expansions as you said, then you'll never have to worry about it anyhow. Which brings up the question of why you made the comment in the first place. I swear for your god, that I didn´t use it like an argument. Is only a practical observation.
Magicdealer wrote: Which brings up the question of why you made the comment in the first place. Because I try to do it, without put in game extra rules. And because 2+2 isn´t 4 (Do you thing about that?)
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Maese RoD wrote: And because 2+2 isn´t 4 (Do you thing about that?) Whoa.
Keanu Reeves wrote: Maese RoD wrote: And because 2+2 isn´t 4 (Do you thing about that?) Whoa. WTF! Is Neo! pls, blend a spoon! it the same concept that "2+2 isn´t 4"
In addition:
A 20th lvl Alchemist have 20 opportunities to take the feat Explosive Missile. (10 discoveries + 10 extra feats that can take Aditional Discovery)
If this 20th lvl alchemist take the feat, can apply in ONE round, the damage of the bomb to the ammo, giving a supra-ammo who deal:
1d3+5+5+1d6fire+1d6acid+1d6electricity+1d6cold returning
+10d6 +INT
+ effects in the sling +10
+ Poisonning
In every attack until she reach the bomb´s limit.
(more or less)
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BUT, responding ONE especial argument:
"you need a especial feat".
If you take a special feat, that only have the bennefits to load a sling with a bomb, in 1 std action, this feat is absolutly OVERWHELMED vs the Explosive Missile feat, that give the benefits of the ammo, the weapon and the bomb.
Is a useless feat.
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Responding to the 1 round action and the 2 standard action to create the bomb and use the sling:
Create the bomb is not a standard action. Create the bomb and throw the bomb is 1 standard action.
Use the sling is actually a standard action.
But ONLY create a bomb, don´t take a FULL standard action.
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As I see these facts (an this is MY personal opinion) load a no-active bomb in a sling take 1 move action (and can be do in the previous round). Create the bomb loaded, is less than a standard action. Throw the bomb with the sling is a standar action.
Then, if I do all thats action in ONE FULL ROUND ACTION (except the previous load of the bomb), I can throw the bomb with the sling taking a -2 cicustancial penalty (is a rule in book), because I haven´t any feat that give me some practice in the action. And the impact doesn´t exceed te one-round-life of the bombs.
The only adventage that have a warslinger halfling, is load the bomb in the same round, and not in a previous round.
As I see, all this conditions don´t break the balance, don´t overhelm any feat, and take the penalties in book.
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HippieKilla082:
OK, I accept that the OFFICIAL answer cannot be say somethig that is not explicitally write in the book, but sry, I need to go for more =P
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
The only thing I need to say to shut down that post is that you can't take a "not FULL standard action," either you take a standard action or you don't, simple as that. An action is an action, you can't just take half of one
maese rod wrote: As I see these facts (an this is MY personal opinion) load a no-active bomb in a sling take 1 move action (and can be do in the previous round). Create the bomb loaded, is less than a standard action. Throw the bomb with the sling is a standar action.
Then, if I do all thats action in ONE FULL ROUND ACTION (except the previous load of the bomb), I can throw the bomb with the sling taking a -2 cicustancial penalty (is a rule in book), because I haven´t any feat that give me some practice in the action. And the impact doesn´t exceed te one-round-life of the bombs.
The only adventage that have a warslinger halfling, is load the bomb in the same round, and not in a previous round.
As I see, all this conditions don´t break the balance, don´t overhelm any feat, and take the penalties in book.
I have just one little problem with the embolded.(made up word)
Creating and throwing a bomb is a standard action, while launching a sling is a standard action as well. I would argue that the launching of the sling takes longer than a simple throw. I would also argue that this entire thread is just silly, but I enjoy that sort of thing so its cool.
Other than that I can see it being done with fast bombs, but only to launch one bomb and with the -2 penalty you mentioned above.
Modern dog-ball throwers are basically just these
Show the GM that article, and tell them what you're making. Let them come up with the rules.
For added cool points make it like a lacross stick and use it as a melee weapon too.
Matt Stich wrote: The only thing I need to say to shut down that post is that you can't take a "not FULL standard action," either you take a standard action or you don't, simple as that. An action is an action, you can't just take half of one I stongly believe that the creators of the bomb rules commited a mistake.
Create a bomb must be a swift action, because throw an object is a standard action.
For example: You cannot create a bomb, walk 10´ (less than your limit) and throw the bomb. Why? because the creation of the bomb and its throwing is one unique standard action. But why? If a bomb have a 1 round life time, then you can create it wait, an then throw it, in the same round. But you can´t move (even slowly), because lose the rest of the standard action.
You must (obligated by the rule), walk the 10´, stop the movement, create the bomb, and throw it.
Quote: Doomed Hero
Modern dog-ball throwers are basically just these
Show the GM that article, and tell them what you're making. Let them come up with the rules.
For added cool points make it like a lacross stick and use it as a melee weapon too.
That´s a great example of an item that can give you magical bonus to throwing object. I was thingking in something shorte and attached to the hand. I like it.
Creating and throwing a bomb is a standard action, while launching a sling is a standard action as well. I would argue that the launching of the sling takes longer than a simple throw. I would also argue that this entire thread is just silly, but I enjoy that sort of thing so its cool.
Quote:
THAT is the reason that I taked the -2 cicumstancial penalty: You must hurry up, because you need to compense the time to launch the bomb with the sling. (An thinking about that, may be its not necessary take the full round action, if I take the cicunstancial -2 penalty because the hurry).
AND, with this argument, I kill this other argument:
Quote: you can't take a "not FULL standard action," either you take a standard action or you don't, simple as that. An action is an action, you can't just take half of one ----------------------------------------------------------------------
In shorts words, as a conclusion:
Because I take the correct 1 standard action (rule in book) to create and attack with the bomb, and I give it a -2 cicunstancial penalty (rule in book), for the hurry, and deal less damage than an attack provided by the Explosive Missile feat (feat in book, and calculated in a previous post that wasn´t negate for anybody), and I need an extra move action to previously load the inactive-bomb (because I cannot do a move action between a standard action), and obviously lossing the Throw Anything feat...THEN: I can throw a bomb with a sling, without breaking any rule or include any house rule or destoying the mighty-balance.
Extracting the mechanism:
1- Action of movement: Load an inactive-bomb (lost the possibility of displacement in the round). This point is avoid by the trait of the warslinger halfling.
2- Hurry up the action of create a bomb, taking a -2 cicumstancial penalty. Throw the bomb with the sling, avoiding the "Throw Anything" (feat) (+1 cicunstancial in attacks with flask). This action last 1 standard action.
3- Get a range´s increment of 50´
Corollary 1: As you get a total penalty of -3 (lost +1 circumstantial bonus of the feat, and get a -2 circumstantial), then you need a +3 Sling to iqual your original Attack Bonus.
Corollary 2: The feat Explosive Missile is the improvement of this complex action, avoiding the -2 cicunstantial penalty, giving the possibility of displacement (don´t consume the movement in the previous action), and dealing the extra damage of the ammo and the STR.
Corollary 3: You can do a similar action, in 2 rounds, with the feat Delayed Bomb.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
But you don't kill my argument. You don't seem to understand how the rule works. Creating a bomb is not a swift action. The action is that you create then throw the bomb because if you don't, the bomb will become inert. Bombs don't have a 1 round lifetime, essentially they have a standard action lifetime. You don't create it as a swift, load it as a move, then sling it as a standard.
Also, where do you find that "-2 circumstance penalty" for hurrying when using a sling? I'd love to see it, because I'm fairly certain it doesn't exist.
The only way to get the bomb to last longer than a standard action is to use delayed bomb, but that's not part of the argument here. It's a non-sequiter.
This is a rules question.
RAW is exceedingly clear that you retrieve, create, and throw the bomb as part of one standard action.
Quote: Drawing the components of, creating, and throwing a bomb requires a standard action that provokes an attack of opportunity. It's not "draw the components of, creating, and launching a bomb in your preferred method requires a standard action that provokes an attack of opportunity."
You cannot load a bomb into a sling and use that to deliver it.
Matt Stich wrote:
Bombs don't have a 1 round lifetime, essentially they have a standard action lifetime.
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HippieKilla082 wrote: If you can find a way to do both in 1 round, before the bomb goes inert, then you have a pretty good argueemnt to present to your DM.
In addition:
"In addition to magical extracts, alchemists are adept at swiftly mixing various volatile chemicals and infusing them with their magical reserves to create powerful bombs that they can hurl at their enemies. An alchemist can use a number of bombs each day equal to his class level + his Intelligence modifier. Bombs are unstable, and if not used in the round they are created, they degrade and become inert—their method of creation prevents large volumes of explosive material from being created and stored. In order to create a bomb, the alchemist must use a small vial containing an ounce of liquid catalyst—the alchemist can create this liquid catalyst from small amounts of chemicals from an alchemy lab, and these supplies can be readily refilled in the same manner as a spellcaster’s component pouch. Most alchemists create a number of catalyst vials at the start of the day equal to the total number of bombs they can create in that day—once created, a catalyst vial remains usable by the alchemist for years."
Cheapy wrote: It's not "draw the components of, creating, and launching a bomb in your preferred method requires a standard action that provokes an attack of opportunity." --> Yes, that is the reason to take a -2 penalty that stacks with practically everything.
Matt Stich wrote: circumstance penalty" What you do if your Character is in a free fall in the sky, and fighting against an enemy, with spears? Search for the correct penalty? XD
Sry for the joke =P
I understand that the rules work well when one person don´t try to do something that is not anticipate by the creator of the rule.
BUT, we aren´t play chess. Or we are?
Matt Stich wrote: I'd love to see it, because I'm fairly certain it doesn't exist. AND FINALLY! I understand WHY you don´t know about the circumstance bonuses!
In the section Common Term, in the Core, they ommited the typology of bonuses! XD
See that: in Srdd20, is write in one page, the type of bonuses.
The cricunstance bonuses say:
Circumstance Modifier
A circumstance bonus (or penalty) arises from specific conditional factors impacting the success of the task at hand. Circumstance bonuses stack with all other bonuses, including other circumstance bonuses, unless they arise from essentially the same source.
Is like a common-sense rule XD (but, is a rule, indeed)
There is the source: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#circumstanceModifier
A swear that I search in the Pathfinder´s Core Book, and I don´t fin any list of bonuses type or its stacks condition. May be, it was lost in the edition.
Come on! check it!
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OK, now that you check it, you can understand that in any cases that happend something NOT ORDINARY, you can freely apply a circunstance bonuses?
In the case that I propose, the alchemist is trying to acelerate his work, to have the opportunity to launch the bomb with the sling. Then, she commite some mistakes (like everyone that is hurry). Then, she recieve a Circumstance Penalty
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As you can understand now, the circumstance modifiers are the "jokers" in the d20 system.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Maese RoD wrote: Matt Stich wrote: I'd love to see it, because I'm fairly certain it doesn't exist. AND FINALLY! I understand WHY you don´t know about the circumstance bonuses!
In the section Common Term, in the Core, they ommited the typology of bonuses! XD
See that: in Srdd20, is write in one page, the type of bonuses.
The cricunstance bonuses say:
Circumstance Modifier
A circumstance bonus (or penalty) arises from specific conditional factors impacting the success of the task at hand. Circumstance bonuses stack with all other bonuses, including other circumstance bonuses, unless they arise from essentially the same source.
Is like a common-sense rule XD (but, is a rule, indeed)
There is the source: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#circumstanceModifier
A swear that I search in the Pathfinder´s Core Book, and I don´t fin any list of bonuses type or its stacks condition. May be, it was lost in the edition.
Come on! check it!
-----------
OK, now that you check it, you can understand that in any cases that happend something NOT ORDINARY, you can freely apply a circunstance bonuses?
In the case that I propose, the alchemist is trying to acelerate his work, to have the opportunity to launch the bomb with the sling. Then, she commite some mistakes (like everyone that is hurry). Then, she recieve a Circumstance Penalty
-----------
As you can understand now, the circumstance modifiers are the "jokers" in the d20 system.
If you read my question it was about the circumstance bonus to allow you to do that with a sling. You completely misconstrue that rule and if you can't see that, I believe we're done here.
Let me see...
I explainned you this:
Quote:
As you can understand now, the circumstance modifiers are the "jokers" in the d20 system.
Because this:
Quote:
Circumstance Modifier
A circumstance bonus (or penalty) arises from specific conditional factors impacting the success of the task at hand. Circumstance bonuses stack with all other bonuses, including other circumstance bonuses, unless they arise from essentially the same source.
The measurement of the penalty, is actually a task for the DM-in-turn (because it is really who have the power to do this).
As I explained earlier: I concider a -2 penalty, becasue don´t break the balance. But if you concider that the penalty is -10000, that is your opinion, and is based on your logic.
In addition:
I think at least 2 or 3 situatons similars to make examples (like something said: "you really know something if you can explain it to your grandmother"), but is long and is weekend, and I´m sooooo lazy.
I dont know: Think about the possibility of a alchemist with his feet in the roof an her head in dirección of the ground, or a fighter falling infinitely in a hole, in a middle of a fight, or a character trying a trip in a place with a reference system not normal, or the possibility of making some that looks like impossible, but taking adventage from the enviroment... All of these situetion are resolved with the impose of rational circumstance bonus, that not figure especifically in any list. BUT, any list is possible because it could be larger than life.
And yes, if you have no other comment, I release you and I release me from the task (thank you for giving me power over you MUAJAJAJAJA!)
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The resault is:
In my perception, the task is possible.
In the perspective of Matt Stich, it not possible.
In the perception of the Scribers:
One say: YES
One say: IT DEPENDS (dealyed bomb or found a way to do it in one round)
One say: NO
Then: reasonable doubt
I know it has been a couple months since this topic was touched, and I also know that the origoanl question was without the discovery, but it became about whether the dicovery could allow you to use a sling with it. And while it does pretty much exclude the sling in its description, there shoudln't be any reason to do so. After all, with the wording of the discovery, you are able to:
1) 'charge' the ammo
2) load the ammo
3) fire the ammo
All as a standard action.
It does not say as a standard action, you charge the ammo, and then you take the normal actions to load and then fire. So, an alchemist with a heavy crossbow could launch a charged crossbow bolt once every round. You can load and fire a charged bullet from a handgun every round (touch attack at that). Load and fire a bow every round.
Heavy Crossbow normally takes a full round to load. Non advanced firearms take a full round to load. The sling takes a move-action to load.
So a lot of the aruments seem to say:
-Fire a Heavy Crossbow every round (and still be able to MOVE) and get bomb damage as well as that keen d10. Sure no problem.
-Fire a hangun every round (wait, I can move too?) and get bomb damage, AND OMG its a touch attack with a d3 to d6 damage. Sure, no problem...
-Fire a sling and move (as the two examples above) getting an additional 1d3+str...gasp...what? Nope, can't do that.
All arguments aside, as a GM, I would rule sure, you can use the discovery, since the other weapons that are allowed to be used are far better than the lowly peasant sling.
And sure, you could use a magic sling, and give you even more damge, but guess what, you can do the same thing with a bow.
This idea would take a full-round action, you create the bomb (1/2 standard), load it in the sling (move), and launch it with the sling (2/2 standard). It's that simple. Any alchemist can do it, but it takes a full-round action. So you can't throw and move.
With bows, bolts, and bullets, it'd be specialized because you can't simply load a fragile container into a gun, bow, or crossbow without it shattering, you need a special container for delivery in those cases.
With a sling, you simply do raw damage of the bomb, nothing extra, you're just expending a full-round action for that extra 20-30 feet of range. I'll ask my DM about this and see what he thinks, but I'd allow this in my campaign.
Pfffft. This whole thread is overthinking the problem. Take a Tiefling Grenadier Alchemist with a Prehensile Tail, the Explosive Missle Discovery, Longbow Proficiency (free Martial Weapon Prof. as a first level Grenadier), a Hybridization Funnel, a high enough Craft: Alchemy to hit DC 25, an Acid Flask, an Alchemist Fire and a Dye Arrow.
At the beginning of the day, hybridize the Alchemist Fire and Acid Flask.
Swift Action: Draw the hybridized Acid/Alchemist Fire with the Prehensile Tail.
Move Action: Infuse the Acid/Alchemist Fire into the Dye Arrow with the Grenadier's Alchemical Weapon ability.
Standard Action: Use the Explosive Missle Discovery to infuse their bomb into the Dye Arrow. Fire at target.
Result: Target takes xd6 Bomb damage, 1d6 Acid damage, 1d6 Alchemist Fire Damage and the Grenadier's Int mod x 3 hitting at Touch AC from the Dye Arrow at Longbow range. This is RAW.
Oh, although the alchemist fire and acid flask will not splash, the Explosive Missle infused Bomb still does.
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