Maese RoD's page

Let me see...

I explainned you this:

As you can understand now, the circumstance modifiers are the "jokers" in the d20 system.

Because this:

Circumstance Modifier
A circumstance bonus (or penalty) arises from specific conditional factors impacting the success of the task at hand. Circumstance bonuses stack with all other bonuses, including other circumstance bonuses, unless they arise from essentially the same source.

The measurement of the penalty, is actually a task for the DM-in-turn (because it is really who have the power to do this).

As I explained earlier: I concider a -2 penalty, becasue don´t break the balance. But if you concider that the penalty is -10000, that is your opinion, and is based on your logic.

In addition:

I think at least 2 or 3 situatons similars to make examples (like something said: "you really know something if you can explain it to your grandmother"), but is long and is weekend, and I´m sooooo lazy.

I dont know: Think about the possibility of a alchemist with his feet in the roof an her head in dirección of the ground, or a fighter falling infinitely in a hole, in a middle of a fight, or a character trying a trip in a place with a reference system not normal, or the possibility of making some that looks like impossible, but taking adventage from the enviroment... All of these situetion are resolved with the impose of rational circumstance bonus, that not figure especifically in any list. BUT, any list is possible because it could be larger than life.

And yes, if you have no other comment, I release you and I release me from the task (thank you for giving me power over you MUAJAJAJAJA!)

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The resault is:

In my perception, the task is possible.

In the perspective of Matt Stich, it not possible.

In the perception of the Scribers:

One say: YES
One say: IT DEPENDS (dealyed bomb or found a way to do it in one round)
One say: NO

Then: reasonable doubt

Please, something can tell where in the books is the clasification of modifiers and its stack´s conditions. Because in the d20 system it is in the Common Term, but I don´t find it in the core rules of Pathfinder.

Actually, I didn´t find it in the Pathfinder´s SRD.

Some feats chage the element of a spell/bomb/etc. If you chage the energy type, overthrown a especific inmmunity.

Variety is the key.

I'd love to see it, because I'm fairly certain it doesn't exist.

AND FINALLY! I understand WHY you don´t know about the circumstance bonuses!

In the section Common Term, in the Core, they ommited the typology of bonuses! XD

See that: in Srdd20, is write in one page, the type of bonuses.

The cricunstance bonuses say:

Circumstance Modifier
A circumstance bonus (or penalty) arises from specific conditional factors impacting the success of the task at hand. Circumstance bonuses stack with all other bonuses, including other circumstance bonuses, unless they arise from essentially the same source.

Is like a common-sense rule XD (but, is a rule, indeed)

There is the source: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#circumstanceModifier

A swear that I search in the Pathfinder´s Core Book, and I don´t fin any list of bonuses type or its stacks condition. May be, it was lost in the edition.

Come on! check it!

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OK, now that you check it, you can understand that in any cases that happend something NOT ORDINARY, you can freely apply a circunstance bonuses?

In the case that I propose, the alchemist is trying to acelerate his work, to have the opportunity to launch the bomb with the sling. Then, she commite some mistakes (like everyone that is hurry). Then, she recieve a Circumstance Penalty

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As you can understand now, the circumstance modifiers are the "jokers" in the d20 system.

Bombs don't have a 1 round lifetime, essentially they have a standard action lifetime.

\/

If you can find a way to do both in 1 round, before the bomb goes inert, then you have a pretty good argueemnt to present to your DM.

In addition:

"In addition to magical extracts, alchemists are adept at swiftly mixing various volatile chemicals and infusing them with their magical reserves to create powerful bombs that they can hurl at their enemies. An alchemist can use a number of bombs each day equal to his class level + his Intelligence modifier. Bombs are unstable, and if not used in the round they are created, they degrade and become inert—their method of creation prevents large volumes of explosive material from being created and stored. In order to create a bomb, the alchemist must use a small vial containing an ounce of liquid catalyst—the alchemist can create this liquid catalyst from small amounts of chemicals from an alchemy lab, and these supplies can be readily refilled in the same manner as a spellcaster’s component pouch. Most alchemists create a number of catalyst vials at the start of the day equal to the total number of bombs they can create in that day—once created, a catalyst vial remains usable by the alchemist for years."

It's not "draw the components of, creating, and launching a bomb in your preferred method requires a standard action that provokes an attack of opportunity."

--> Yes, that is the reason to take a -2 penalty that stacks with practically everything.

circumstance penalty"

What you do if your Character is in a free fall in the sky, and fighting against an enemy, with spears? Search for the correct penalty? XD

Sry for the joke =P

I understand that the rules work well when one person don´t try to do something that is not anticipate by the creator of the rule.

BUT, we aren´t play chess. Or we are?

Extracting the mechanism:

1- Action of movement: Load an inactive-bomb (lost the possibility of displacement in the round). This point is avoid by the trait of the warslinger halfling.

2- Hurry up the action of create a bomb, taking a -2 cicumstancial penalty. Throw the bomb with the sling, avoiding the "Throw Anything" (feat) (+1 cicunstancial in attacks with flask). This action last 1 standard action.

3- Get a range´s increment of 50´

Corollary 1: As you get a total penalty of -3 (lost +1 circumstantial bonus of the feat, and get a -2 circumstantial), then you need a +3 Sling to iqual your original Attack Bonus.

Corollary 2: The feat Explosive Missile is the improvement of this complex action, avoiding the -2 cicunstantial penalty, giving the possibility of displacement (don´t consume the movement in the previous action), and dealing the extra damage of the ammo and the STR.

Corollary 3: You can do a similar action, in 2 rounds, with the feat Delayed Bomb.

I've always treated long jumps as a parabolic shape. You would attain a maximum height of 1/4 your jump check result (assuming a running start) at the mid point in distance of the jump. Heights at points closer to the start or end point would be lower, and so forth. Finding the height at any given distance could probably be found by plugging in your x (distance in length traveled) and using the parabolic function.

:) Probably too complicated for practical use other than computing max height at the mid point of the jump.

The lower point of arrival is a good point to talk about.

If you want to simplify the calculate, you can give an circumstancial bonus to Jump Check.
The bonus doesn´t increment with a higher fall, because the parabolic function of an projectile take a mayor increment in the Y axis.

In an attempt to reach a high point, you can give a cirumstancial penalty

The only thing I need to say to shut down that post is that you can't take a "not FULL standard action," either you take a standard action or you don't, simple as that. An action is an action, you can't just take half of one

I stongly believe that the creators of the bomb rules commited a mistake.

Create a bomb must be a swift action, because throw an object is a standard action.

For example: You cannot create a bomb, walk 10´ (less than your limit) and throw the bomb. Why? because the creation of the bomb and its throwing is one unique standard action. But why? If a bomb have a 1 round life time, then you can create it wait, an then throw it, in the same round. But you can´t move (even slowly), because lose the rest of the standard action.

You must (obligated by the rule), walk the 10´, stop the movement, create the bomb, and throw it.

Doomed Hero

Modern dog-ball throwers are basically just these

Show the GM that article, and tell them what you're making. Let them come up with the rules.

For added cool points make it like a lacross stick and use it as a melee weapon too.

That´s a great example of an item that can give you magical bonus to throwing object. I was thingking in something shorte and attached to the hand. I like it.

Creating and throwing a bomb is a standard action, while launching a sling is a standard action as well. I would argue that the launching of the sling takes longer than a simple throw. I would also argue that this entire thread is just silly, but I enjoy that sort of thing so its cool.

THAT is the reason that I taked the -2 cicumstancial penalty: You must hurry up, because you need to compense the time to launch the bomb with the sling. (An thinking about that, may be its not necessary take the full round action, if I take the cicunstancial -2 penalty because the hurry).

AND, with this argument, I kill this other argument:

Quote:

you can't take a "not FULL standard action," either you take a standard action or you don't, simple as that. An action is an action, you can't just take half of one

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In shorts words, as a conclusion:

Because I take the correct 1 standard action (rule in book) to create and attack with the bomb, and I give it a -2 cicunstancial penalty (rule in book), for the hurry, and deal less damage than an attack provided by the Explosive Missile feat (feat in book, and calculated in a previous post that wasn´t negate for anybody), and I need an extra move action to previously load the inactive-bomb (because I cannot do a move action between a standard action), and obviously lossing the Throw Anything feat...THEN: I can throw a bomb with a sling, without breaking any rule or include any house rule or destoying the mighty-balance.

In addition:

A 20th lvl Alchemist have 20 opportunities to take the feat Explosive Missile. (10 discoveries + 10 extra feats that can take Aditional Discovery)

If this 20th lvl alchemist take the feat, can apply in ONE round, the damage of the bomb to the ammo, giving a supra-ammo who deal:

1d3+5+5+1d6fire+1d6acid+1d6electricity+1d6cold returning

+10d6 +INT

+ effects in the sling +10

+ Poisonning

In every attack until she reach the bomb´s limit.

(more or less)

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BUT, responding ONE especial argument:

"you need a especial feat".

If you take a special feat, that only have the bennefits to load a sling with a bomb, in 1 std action, this feat is absolutly OVERWHELMED vs the Explosive Missile feat, that give the benefits of the ammo, the weapon and the bomb.

Is a useless feat.

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Responding to the 1 round action and the 2 standard action to create the bomb and use the sling:

Create the bomb is not a standard action. Create the bomb and throw the bomb is 1 standard action.

Use the sling is actually a standard action.

But ONLY create a bomb, don´t take a FULL standard action.

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As I see these facts (an this is MY personal opinion) load a no-active bomb in a sling take 1 move action (and can be do in the previous round). Create the bomb loaded, is less than a standard action. Throw the bomb with the sling is a standar action.

Then, if I do all thats action in ONE FULL ROUND ACTION (except the previous load of the bomb), I can throw the bomb with the sling taking a -2 cicustancial penalty (is a rule in book), because I haven´t any feat that give me some practice in the action. And the impact doesn´t exceed te one-round-life of the bombs.

The only adventage that have a warslinger halfling, is load the bomb in the same round, and not in a previous round.

As I see, all this conditions don´t break the balance, don´t overhelm any feat, and take the penalties in book.

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HippieKilla082:

OK, I accept that the OFFICIAL answer cannot be say somethig that is not explicitally write in the book, but sry, I need to go for more =P

I do a similar question, with the feat combat reflex, pole arms and short weapons, in this thread: http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz5hc4?Multiple-AoO

[qoute] Give both characters Improved Combat Reflexes but not Improved Disarm.

INFINITE LOOP.

XD

Holy paradox

Zeus has to petrify both... for the good of the universe.

I am not sure 100% that I agree with this, but there is some grey area here.

OK, if you don´t like sunder, replace sunder with disarm in the chain (it looks like a gray). I want an analysis of the chain an the possibility of Multiples AoO with Combat Reflex feat, to cut the action of 1 other creature, not especifically the Sunder attempt.

Let's break it down.

A has reach, B does not.

1- B passes through the threatened area of A and provokes an AoO.
Situation done. B can't really do anything about it.

Second situation.
1- B tries to trip A but doesn't have Improved Trip and so may provoke an AoO. Does A get an AoO? Maybe and maybe not. If armed with just a reach weapon - no. If armed but has 10 ft reach naturally (like a large creature) - yes. If armed with a reach weapon but also armed with a secondary weapon with a 5 ft reach (like unarmed strike backed by improved unarmed strike feat) - yes.

2- Supposing A can make an AoO against B in this case (like a kick to the jimmies) and decides to stomp on the tripping weapon in an attempt to break it (sunder). He doesn't have the sunder feat and so provokes an AoO from B.

Yes. That chain could happen. Keep in mind that each successful AoO in the chain makes it harder for the provoking combat maneuver to succeed. So a polearm-using monk who tries to stomp (sunder) on the tripping weapon in B's hand, may have a harder time sundering if B manages to slash his leg in the process. If that AoO misses, A's sunder is unhindered and, if successful, should make the trip more difficult.

I think that you don´t understand my question. Let explain it again:

1- ALL is happening in the SAME round.
2- The PJA attempt to Trip, an the PJB have an AoO.
3- The PJ B can´t hit the body of the PJ A, because PJ A is too far (she have a reach weapon).
4- In place to try to hit the body of the PJ A (because is to far), try to SUNDER or DISARM the Reach-Meele-Weapon, because the weapon indeed IS near (in her reach of 5´).
5- With the attempt to SUNDER or DISARM the PJ A (a 10´ of distance), the PJ B generate an AoO, because she hasn´t the improved feat.
6- IN THE SAME chain of action, IN THE SAME round, the PJ A, with Combat Reflex, use de NEW AoO of PJ B, to do another attempt to trip her rival.

Then, in 1 "action", you have the diagram:

AoO Trip AvsB ----> AoO Sunder BvsA ----> AoO New Trip AvsB.

The case is: Because PJ B doesn´t have reach, try to attack the weapon of PJ A, in place of the attack against PJ A.

In Example:

PJ A attacks the legs of B with a long spear, then B try to break the pole arm of A with her axe, but isn´t good enaough in that. In consecuense, PJ A takes a new opportunity to trip PJ B, hitting another point.

If PJ A fail the last attempt to trip, PJ B can do her attempt to sunder the pole arm with her axe. If she fail the attempt to sunder the long spear with the axe, then the PJ A has her opportunity to trip the PJ B. If PJ A fail the original attempt to trip PJ B, THEN (at last) PJ B pass throught the menace area of PJ A, without any arm.

Maese RoD wrote:

And because 2+2 isn´t 4 (Do you thing about that?)

Whoa.

WTF! Is Neo! pls, blend a spoon! it the same concept that "2+2 isn´t 4"

Additionally, if I recall correctly, a Sunder maneuver is a Standard action.

Sunder, Trip and Disarm are able to doin any time that you can do an attack (like an AoO)

PJ A: Combat Reflex (1 + DEX AoO), Meele Weapon Reach 10´

Pj B: Meele Weapon Reach 5´

1- PJ B Pass through the reach of PJ A, generating a AoO for PJ A.
2- PJ A response with a Trip attempt without the Improved Trip feat.
3- Then, PJ A GENERATE a AoO (because she hasn´t the feat)for PJ B
4- PJ B use this AoO to do a Sunder attempt against the PJ A´s Weapon, without the Improved Sunder feat, generating a Second AoO, because it is a different action.
5- PJ A use his Combat Reflex against the attempt to sunder her weapon, and do a second Trip attempt.

Is this chain possible?

Actually, no, you can't have an item that grants bonuses to thrown weapons unless you talk your dm into letting you craft some custom items.

Read the rules about create a magical item, and the extra cost for wear it in a non-related slot (but if you use an slot in the arm,is a related slot)

Actually, a sling +10 isn´t a item booked. Is a custom item. Like a magical ammo.

If you compare, with an magical sling you can use a magical ammo, with special matetials, and that overwhelms a bomb.

(For example, an adamantine ammo +10 with the property of returnin)

Then, the damage with the ammo, is: 1d3+Str +5 + 4 extra properties (like 4 DIFERENTS 1d6 element damage) + Returning + Proporties of Adamantine + Poison (you can use an ammo with spikes to deliver the poison)

(And a Alchemist have a HUGE Str, beause in lvl 4 she can obtain a bonus of +10 in her Str, with her alchemy).

A alchemis of 4th lvl can use his mutage to obtain +4 (alchemical) in str, enlarger person to obtain +2 (size modifier), and bull strength potion +4 (enhance).

If you have a 10 in STR and a 18 in INT, then you have a 20 for at less, 4 minutes (40 rounds).

Then, you can fire your 1d3+5+5+1d6fire+1d6acid+1d6electricity+1d6cold returning adamantine poisoned ammo, an take it back... 38 times, may be?

To hit
That is 1d3+4d6+10 AND THE IT IS CAPABLE TO DEAL CRITICAL DAMAGE (2x1+4d6+20) VS, 2d6+4 from a bomb fired with your sling +10.

If you calcuate the average value:

(1*3+1*1+4*1+4*6)/2 +10 = 26 HP (critical hit: 38)

(2*1 + 2*6)/2 +4 = 11 HP

At the same cost, and same conditions.

But, a +10 item is a very high lvl item. Let see it in a 20 lvl character:

The damage with the bombo is: 10d6+4 (Average:39)

With the grand mutagen discovery, your str is: 10 + 14 = 24 ... then: is a +7 bonus to damage.

The damage with the magical ammo is: 1d3+4d6+12 (Average: 28, with a critical of 42)

AND, in lvl 20 you have a limit of: 20+INT bomb (in this case, 24 bombs)

AND, if you calculate 20 minutes of spells effect (at less), you have 200 shoots.

The amount of damage (only vs 1 creater) in average, is:

bomb: 39 x 24 = 936 HP

ammo: 28 x 200 = 5600 HP + 5% of critical possibility: 180 EXTRA HP damage: 5780 HP dmg.

mmm... That is vs 1 creater.

BUT! the creature should have a elemental resistence vs your bomb of 20/element, in 7th lvl... but what creater have a 20 damage reduction against adamantine in this lvl?

(F!!~, I HATE THOSE CREATURES!)

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Ok, let see now the source of GP that have a Alchemist lvl 20: Phylosophal stone: 50.000 gp/month.

He HAS the capacity of buy both, the sling +10 and the magical ammo. And can stack the bonefits of both. But, when she use a bomb with the sling, she have only the benefits of the slings.

BEWARE! power of maths!

Conclusion: load a sling with a bomb, change accuracy AND damage, for range.

However, I do like how you try to ignore...

<- I really HAVEN´T TIME to explain all things that you or other users wrote. Sry for my full of obligation live =P

Side note - "it's a matter of time" is not a good argument for anything, ever. Just because it may or may not occur is no reason to assume it's a good thing and try to quicken it's arrival. If you like to play with core and maybe one or two expansions as you said, then you'll never have to worry about it anyhow. Which brings up the question of why you made the comment in the first place.

I swear for your god, that I didn´t use it like an argument. Is only a practical observation.

Which brings up the question of why you made the comment in the first place.

Because I try to do it, without put in game extra rules. And because 2+2 isn´t 4 (Do you thing about that?)

FIRST: TRAITS ARE OPTIONAL. Indeed, if you take 2 Traits, is like a feat. If you give free traits, you are giving FREE FEATS. Then, if you giveme 2 free traits, a want to use this traits to attack with the sling like I want.

You can have a bracelet/armlet/glove/googles/amulet/boots/whatever with the same magical +10 enhancements to range attack. Is a problem of cost. Any item +10 should cost at least 2^10 x 1000 po.

This slings +10 is an aberration in any case, using the bomb or not. The problem is the item, not the bomb. With that sling, you can deliver practically whatever you want. A huge item reduced by magic (it REALLY hurts), a gliff, a magic triggered object, a rage-barbarian-in-a-bottle, a bugs-bunny hole... bla bla bla...

When you campare, you HAVE to compare similars situations.

The only real benefits, is the range 50´. (An you forgot eliminate the possibilitie of a magic ammo)

And please: The limit is the bomb-limit of the alchemist, vs, for example:

Magic in the wizard´s arsenal (including wands, if you pretent include imte´s cost)
The UNLIMITED rogues´s sneaks attacks (with the same damage of the bomb, and is free) <--- (But IT IS another discution)

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(I Trace a line in the thread)

I can already see it now. The halfling slinging alchemist who uses his racial trait to reload as a free action, grabbing the extra bombs feat and just going to town with his +5 sling of whatever.

With new books and issues in store, is a matter of time: EVERY SYSTEM ALIVE, TEND TO CRASH (That´s the reason why every DM dicede what material use in his/her own table. Don´t try to stop the enthropy.

You might want to check out this article on the Kobold Quarterly webpage. Sling Flask

Hopefully, that's helpful.

<-- I like this feat, but a like to play with cores and one or two expantions. Thanks you for the link.

[qoute]
Technically, it is a standard action to draw the components of, create & throw a bomb. Throwing a bomb uses the Throw Splash Weapon rules. Firing a sling is a ranged attack using a sling. You cannot use the special attack Throw Splash Weapon with a sling so your question is really, can I use a bomb as ammo for my sling. I would say yes, provided you have the delay bomb discovery as that discovery allows you to make the bomb in one round, and fire it from the sling the next. Otherwise your bomb would become inert before you could fire it from the sling.

This is a good answer. Indeed, I imagine another possibilities, like using the feat Fast bombs, but creating only one bomb (is a FULL ROUND ACTION, in place of a Standard Action for the attack). Indeed, I was thinking in the possibility of an increment of time (1 standard action for INFUSE+TRHOWBYHAND //TO// 1 full round action INFUSE+THROWWITHSLING, but without a feat (dthis introduce a new point: lose the movement), but the FAST BOMB feat is a good option.

In both cases, the alchemist gain an extra use for a previous very useful feat, IN BOOK (no house rules), and don´t have to take another feat.

OK, I´m satisfied. mmm... wait! One last question... Where can I buy this sling +10? =P

I´m my DM and player =P

We turn every 4 to 8 session XD

WAIT!!!!!!

Infuse de bomb is a standar ACTION! Throw an object is ANOTHER standar action!

That is another question that I had!

Or is a Errata that don´t appear?

*leather, not letter XD

In addition, another penalty: 1 move action to load the vial-pre-bomb, and later, the standard action to infuse and throw it,

BUT, if you load the flask, AND THEN infuse the bomb?

Load a bullet in a sling is only cover one face of the flask with letter, and you can hold the strings in the fingers, without problem.

I was replying to the explosive missiles entry.

As far as using a bomb as a sling stone, I'd say no. Why? Because something like that should be a discovery, not something you get for free.

The loss of the throwing feat is overwhelmed by the potential magical bonuses on the sling. Pass.

Let me see. You have 2 real losses, 1 pottential lost, and only 1 benefit.

You lost:

1- +1 circumstance bonus on attack rolls
2- 1d3+Str damage on the missile (Because the flask don´t make damage with the impact)
3- ALL the others benefits that you can gain with a especial bullet or magic aplied to a bullet.

You win:

1- Range 50´

See the point?

In addition, I don´t think that if you find a creative form to do something that match with the existent rules, it don´t apply for the caress of a non-existent feat. The feats gives bonuses or reduce penalties, in non-conventional actions (for example, trip, sunder, dirty trick, etc.). In cases like this, you can think in a penalty for the unusual of the action (a -2 circumstancial, for example).

This combo would make a halfling bomber extremely dangerous to every scenario.

In Fact, Try to deal with a Goblin Alchemist(Bomber).

Yes, is a great combo. And very useful with the Force Bomb, against flying creatures (think about that)

Responding some replies:

- The ranged attack with a bomb-and-sling IS a touch attack. The objetive is break de flask, and deliver the liquid.

- The impact´s extra damage: I don´t sure about the 1d3+Str, because the flask is very fragile. A projectile must be solid and resistent, to try to penetrate the objetive (like a rock). In the best, it deal a Non-lethal damage.(*)

- The discovery Explossive Missile: Is a good discovery, if you apply it to a +2 arrow, for example, an give it to the rogue-archer of the group. But, it is to be use WITH a missile. In my case, I try to use THE bomb in the place of a missile.(*)

*Note: If you think, the sling is a primitive weapon, that can throw practically whatever you put in the leather. And in my personal experience, a little ballon full of water a some practice are VERY efective (and don´t harm... too much).

My question is: Could an alchemist use a bomb as a sling´s missile?

The rule is: "...As with an extract or bomb, a mutagen that is not in an alchemist’s possession becomes inert until an alchemist picks it up again."

My personal opinion is: The bomb still in possession of the alchemist, and the bomb is active.

If that is possible, the new attack has a range of 50´, but the alchemist lost the benefits of the feat "Throw anything" (the +1 circumstance bonus on attack rolls made with thrown splash weapons)

The form of the bomb isn´t a problem, because the vial doesn´t have an specific form.