|
Two-Weapon Fighting Description
Touch Attacks: Touching an opponent with a touch spell is considered to be an armed attack and therefore does not provoke attacks of opportunity. The act of casting a spell, however, does provoke an attack of opportunity. Touch attacks come in two types: melee touch attacks and ranged touch attacks. You can score critical hits with either type of attack as long as the spell deals damage. Your opponent's AC against a touch attack does not include any armor bonus, shield bonus, or natural armor bonus. His size modifier, Dexterity modifier, and deflection bonus (if any) all apply normally.
Holding the Charge: If you don't discharge the spell in the round when you cast the spell, you can hold the charge indefinitely. You can continue to make touch attacks round after round. If you touch anything or anyone while holding a charge, even unintentionally, the spell discharges. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates. You can touch one friend as a standard action or up to six friends as a full-round action. Alternatively, you may make a normal unarmed attack (or an attack with a natural weapon) while holding a charge. In this case, you aren't considered armed and you provoke attacks of opportunity as normal for the attack. If your unarmed attack or natural weapon attack normally doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity, neither does this attack. If the attack hits, you deal normal damage for your unarmed attack or natural weapon and the spell discharges. If the attack misses, you are still holding the charge.
Spectral Hand delivers a touch spell just as if it were you, but with a +2 bonus, and while holding a charge you are considered armed, and Two-Weapon Fighting allows you to take a -2 penalty to attack with 2 light weapons such as a melee touch attack...
So with a touch spell that gives you multiple touches, such as Chill Touch, could you use the Two Weapon Fighting Feat + Spectral Hand to deliver two doses of the spell as a full-round action from 30' away?
The touching is all a part of the spell, and has nothing to do with BAB based attacks which is how TWF works.
If you hold the charge until the next round you are still restricted to one attack as standard action.
Making a melee touch attack can be done as a melee attack, so there isn't anything stopping you from including it as your off-hand attack in a TWF routine. But you can't use the spectral hand to make BOTH the main-hand and off-hand attacks. One or the other.
A touch attack is a standard action, not an attack action so how can it be use in conjunction with BAB based attacks? Natural weapons can, but the rules also say the can even though they are not BAB based.
A touch attack is a standard action,
Sorry, I must have missed that rule. Can you cite please?
Having re-read "Touch Spells in Combat", I stand by my reading that a melee touch attack can be made as an attack action -- unless you can show me a clarification or rule that I'm missing.
Many spells have a range of touch. To use these spells, you cast the spell and then touch the subject. In the same round that you cast the spell, you may also touch (or attempt to touch) as a free action. You may take your move before casting the spell, after touching the target, or between casting the spell and touching the target. You can automatically touch one friend or use the spell on yourself, but to touch an opponent, you must succeed on an attack roll.
Touch Attacks: Touching an opponent with a touch spell is considered to be an armed attack and therefore does not provoke attacks of opportunity. The act of casting a spell, however, does provoke an attack of opportunity. Touch attacks come in two types: melee touch attacks and ranged touch attacks. You can score critical hits with either type of attack as long as the spell deals damage. Your opponent's AC against a touch attack does not include any armor bonus, shield bonus, or natural armor bonus. His size modifier, Dexterity modifier, and deflection bonus (if any) all apply normally.
Holding the Charge: If you don't discharge the spell in the round when you cast the spell, you can hold the charge indefinitely. You can continue to make touch attacks round after round. If you touch anything or anyone while holding a charge, even unintentionally, the spell discharges. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates. You can touch one friend as a standard action or up to six friends as a full-round action. Alternatively, you may make a normal unarmed attack (or an attack with a natural weapon) while holding a charge. In this case, you aren't considered armed and you provoke attacks of opportunity as normal for the attack. If your unarmed attack or natural weapon attack normally doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity, neither does this attack. If the attack hits, you deal normal damage for your unarmed attack or natural weapon and the spell discharges. If the attack misses, you are still holding the charge.
Ranged Touch Spells in Combat: Some spells allow you to make a ranged touch attack as part of the casting of the spell. These attacks are made as part of the spell and do not require a separate action. Ranged touch attacks provoke an attack of opportunity, even if the spell that causes the attacks was cast defensively. Unless otherwise noted, ranged touch attacks cannot be held until a later turn.
In the round you cast the touch spell, you can make a free attack with it as part of the spell, the FAQ on magus clears that up. It also says you can, with a held charge, discharge the spell at any time as a touch attack. A single touch attack is a standard action, just as any single attack is. It also says it discharges anytime you touch something, so...
If you are making a TWF attack, and use the held charge, you can do so as part of the TWF routine. Since the spell will discharge when you touch the guy.
Not sure how this nets you anything. You can TWF with spectral hand and a two handed weapon if you wanted, but you'd only be able to do it every other turn after the first turn.
Round 1 : Cast Spectral Hand
Round 2 : Cast Touch Spell, Hold charge
Round 3 : TWF attack, discharge touch spell
Round 4 : Cast Touch Spell, Hold charge
Round 5 : TWF attack, discharge touch spell
You're actually worse off, since you'd take a -2 penalty to the touch attack this way. If you just made the touch attack as part of casting the spell, you'd be doing it at full BAB.
Round 1 : Cast Touch Spell
Round 2 : Attack with weapon
Round 3 : Cast Touch Spell
Round 4 : Attack with weapon
...Not sure how this nets you anything. You can TWF with spectral hand and a two handed weapon if you wanted, but you'd only be able to do it every other turn after the first turn.
Round 1 : Cast Spectral Hand
Round 2 : Cast Touch Spell, Hold charge
Round 3 : TWF attack, discharge touch spell
Round 4 : Cast Touch Spell, Hold charge
Round 5 : TWF attack, discharge touch spell
...
I believe the OP means to use a spell like chill touch that has multiple 'charges' in a single casting. Then use his physical hand to deliver one 'charge' and the spectal hand to deliver another 'charge' in the same round.
I don't believe that is legal for the same reason you can't use your left and right hands to deliver multiple charges in the same round.
would it be more worthwhile with spells that grant multiple touches (EG Chill touch?)
A touch attack is a standard action, not an attack action so how can it be use in conjunction with BAB based attacks?
Attack action is a standard action also, and can't be used with iterative attacks.
Nothing in the rules specifically states you can or can't make iterative touch attacks via high BAB or TWF, but JJ says no:
Iterative attacks are SOLELY the province of weapons (and of spells that specifically work like weapons)—touch attacks and natural weapons do not work this way. Therefore, one touch per round with a produce flame, or one hurled flame per round.
As for TWF (with or without spectral hand) it'll depend on the clarification of FAQ attack, where SKR mentioned (for the first time) that the charge of a held touch spell may be located in a specific body part. If the charge is indeed held in one specific hand, then TWF (with or without spectral hand) will not work. If the charge is not held in a specific hand, then TWF may be viable, depending on allowance of iterative touch attacks.
(A side note about 'charge in hand' - it makes no sense, and conflicts with existing rules. Formerly, you could hold the charge on a touch spell, then make normal attacks with unarmed strikes or natural weapons, discharging the spell on a hit. If the 'held in hand' is upheld, then only attacks made with that particular hand will work. IE: creatures can no longer use bite or tail slap or non-hand-based unarmed strikes to deliver the touch spell. There's a post here with a couple FAQ requests if anyone is interested.)
|
|
Thanks for all the responses!
Chill Touch (and spells like it) are a special case when it comes to touch spells - the reason for asking about them is that even though you can make 1 touch/lv, holding the charge still only lasts 1min, so to keep up w/ the spell you would need to discharge the touch multiple times per round(remembering that casting another spell causes loss of the touch spell)
When you have a touch spell in hand, you are considered armed, therefore you threaten within your reach, and can deliver the touch spell with an AO. So thinking about touch spells like weapons begins to make sense, but read below:
@Grick: thank you so much for that James Jacobs link, it clears up a lot. As a summary for everyone, I could not make "touch attacks" via TWF or a high BAB... so multiple touches/rnd with Spectral Hand are straight out.
However it does not say anything about delivering the touch spell via an Unarmed Strike. Which raises the question of a spellcaster taking Improved Unarmed Strike after his BAB is high enough, or level-dipping into monk and Chill Touch + Flurry ^_^
even though you can make 1 touch/lv, holding the charge still only lasts 1min
What? Why? You hold the charge until the spell is discharged or is dissipated by casting something else.
However it does not say anything about delivering the touch spell via an Unarmed Strike.
Holding the Charge: "Alternatively, you may make a normal unarmed attack (or an attack with a natural weapon) while holding a charge. In this case, you aren't considered armed and you provoke attacks of opportunity as normal for the attack. If your unarmed attack or natural weapon attack normally doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity, neither does this attack. If the attack hits, you deal normal damage for your unarmed attack or natural weapon and the spell discharges. If the attack misses, you are still holding the charge."
Delivery via unarmed strike or natural attack (both VS normal AC) is perfectly legal, in a flurry, full-attack, attack of opportunity, etc.