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What if all player races begin play with Common and their racial language as starting languages, and with a simple /command, they could switch between Common, Elven, Dwarven, Orcish, Halfling, Gnomish, or whatever?
If this was combined with the removal of "general" channels (no trade, city, or local defense) and players could speak or YELL to eachother within a certain radius, how would this change immersion and gameplay? If someone is speaking in Ignan or Infernal, maybe it is too pass secret information in an otherwise crowded area. Sure whispering would be okay, but I see that as being incorporated more as a message spell (0-level and usable at will for casters).
If you can learn other languages, maybe your group of adventurers could use Terran or Abyssal as a secret language. Druids would have their own little social club, and casters with access to comprehend languages or tongues could become socialites.
Not to mention the hardcore RPers who may set up macros to curse in Goblin, blass in Celestial, and complement in Elven.
Just a thought.
Goblin Squad Member
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I would be all for this idea. I like the idea of teams/charters being able to use their common ancestry or learning to speak in a secret manner. Although, I think PF makes language learning way too easy. Everyone should only start with common and the native tongue (for humans this is common) and learning a new language should take effort (or learned like a skill...x time in training and earn a merit badge), but languages are non-trivial and should be treated as such. They are a whole codification system for other knowledge.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Writing a simple language is one thing, writing software that can translate it even semi reliably into another language (ie. filtering what is typed into whatever language) is non-existent.
As a student of languages and translation, I had a friend recently ask me why there isn't any reliable translating software yet and why human translators are still needed.
I began by explaining that language is a representation of very abstract meanings, and that the human brain is more of a pattern recognition machine compared to the cold calculators that computers are. Computers need solid, concrete meanings, and people simply don't speak that way.
Next step, I gave him some examples. I got 10 headlines from newspapers. I stuck with just headlines to keep it fairly simple in terms of subject to object relation. The kinds of wordplay you see in headlines aren't the kind of thing that generally give computers trouble, you usually see computers struggle more with longer, run-on sentences. So 5 headlines in French, and 5 in Russian. Could have done more languages, but they were different enough to make good examples. I then translated all 10 into English. I then fed them through some leading edge translating software that relies on a database of 100s of millions of already translated works as references, in addition to dictionaries and algorithms written by translators.
The result: all 5 of the Russian-English translations were way off. Not just slightly, but it sounded like they were talking about a completely different topic, and completely twisted the meaning of the sentence. For French-English, 4 of the 5 were horribly off, with the single "good" one sounding goofy in English, but at least giving the reader an accurate idea of what's going on.
So if Goblinworks does somehow succeed in writing this kind of software that translates what players are saying into fabricated languages, then trust me when I tell you they're not going to care so much anymore about PFO anymore. They'll have written the impossible software and will make billions from that alone.
Even though fantasy languages are usually simplified languages with fewer words and simpler for not just people but computers to understand, the big issue in translating for computers is making sense of the source language more so than the target language.
When I originally posted this thread, it was not my intention for Goblinworks to actually translate languages (or even provide a dictionary of phrases or words in each language). Instead, text would have color variations based on the language, and any non-speaker seeing the script would be met with a garbled mess of randomly generated words.
This would keep people from using their player knowledge of Elven on behalf of their character. That being said, I would like Orcish to only use !@#$%^&*() as their alphabet. You know, so it always looks like swearing.
d(^_^)z
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Goblin Squad Member
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Blaeringr is entirely correct, even without the translator....fully developing each of the possible languages in the Golarion setting would be a bigger project than the building of the game.
Based on the OPs post, I had envisioned a WoW type language "translator". When someone selects to speak in a given language, if you understand the language, you see something similar to: "[Orcish] haha, that's funny!". Everyone around who does not speak Orcish on the other hand would see an incomprehensible jumble of characters organized roughly into what appears to be words(Like: "[Orcish]Grush'in ikin noch!". An algorithm would blur the speech segments and apply relevant phonological associations based upon a simple ruleset for each language. For instance, using Orcish, we would envision it as lots of stops and other dorsal obstruents...and maybe 2 or 3 vowels. The Orcish ruleset would redistribute the word boundaries and add the letters which English speakers associate with the relevant sounds...to only make it "look" like Orcish. Elvish on the other hand (I imagine) would use lots of sonorant consonants and vowels...it would use a completely different ruleset to turn common into what "looks" like Elvish.
The point is you do not understand the language, so it is not necessary to do anything really comprehensible or translatable. Even repeating (or correctly receiving) back a language for later translation is difficult if you do not have the phoneme of a spoken language in your native inventory.
Based on the OPs post, I had envisioned a WoW type language "translator". When someone selects to speak in a given language, if you understand the language, you see something similar to: "[Orcish] haha, that's funny!". Everyone around who does not speak Orcish on the other hand would see an incomprehensible jumble of characters organized roughly into what appears to be words(Like: "[Orcish]Grush'in ikin noch!". An algorithm would blur the speech segments and apply relevant phonological associations based upon a simple ruleset for each language. For instance, using Orcish, we would envision it as lots of stops and other dorsal obstruents...and maybe 2 or 3 vowels. The Orcish ruleset would redistribute the word boundaries and add the letters which English speakers associate with the relevant sounds...to only make it "look" like Orcish. Elvish on the other hand (I imagine) would use lots of sonorant consonants and vowels...it would use a completely different ruleset to turn common into what "looks" like Elvish.
The point is you do not understand the language, so it is not necessary to do anything really comprehensible or translatable. Even repeating (or correctly receiving) back a language for later translation is difficult if you do not have the phoneme of a spoken language in your native inventory.
Yeah... what KitNyx said.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Ah, well then that makes more sense.
Not familiar with language rules for Pathfinder, or really even for DDO, but in real life I'm a language nut. If Pathfinder did put in some kind of complex language system, I'd crack it and ruin the barrier/immersion for my character. So ya, something simple like the example you just gave would make more sense.
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Goblin Squad Member
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... but in real life I'm a language nut. If Pathfinder did put in some kind of complex language system, I'd crack it and ruin the barrier/immersion for my character. So ya, something simple like the example you just gave would make more sense.
I am right there with you...wow, we have found some common ground *grin*.
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Thirded. I LOVE this idea. It's flavorful, fun, and provides a direct benefit for skills that allow you to learn different languages.
Just a silly idea to throw in for comic relief. Would it be possible to "learn" language from a fluent speaker? Say "Elven Speech" is a skill that can be trained... could there be varying levels of proficiency? For example, maybe if someone untrained in Elven Speech decides to speak in Elven (via chat entry), people who actually understand Elven see a garbled mess, and as the person becomes more proficient in the language, more and more actual words can be formed.
Example: Untrained person attempts to speak in Elvish.
"!@#%!!^!*&! Eleven!"
Medium Profiency Person:
"My bowels explode with rainbow pixie rabbits."
It'd be hilarious, but I think it could be pretty immersive using better examples than the ones I gave.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Eh, I'm really on the fence about linguistics. One the one hand, it does make different cultures feel different, and allows for semi-secret communication.
On the other hand, it can isolate players in an already sparse world. Getting groups together can be difficult enough without language barriers, and if you wandered into a strange land, you'd REALLY feel like a stranger. I suppose having everyone know Common would fix most of that problem, so you can at least guarantee everyone shares one language, but still...
SWG did a language-tutor system; everyone knew Basic, and the non-human races all started with another language; Twi-lek, Rodian, Trandoshan, etc. Using SWG's awesome tutor system, you could teach your language to anyone you grouped up with. It quickly became a rite of passage for new players to find some other player and learn all the game's languages from them. So it encouraged at least a little interaction, and did help role-playing a lot. Especially since Wookies had an interesting disadvantage; they had higher stats than other races, but didn't start the game knowing Basic. That made it especially important to find an older player and learn other languages ASAP.
Goblinworks Founder
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Everquest had this, but slowly as you were nearby you could gain skill in understanding their language. Which led to a lot of gatherings where people just spoke in their language.
I'm all for removal of general chat and being resorted to yells; like walking through a bazaar and people yelling what they have for sale.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I would like to see the SWG language system here, but not the ability to learn as many languages. That's not to say there will never be a universal-translator magical item that is very high end and hard to obtain.
Languages should factor in with npc confrontations and if there are any playable races that can't speak common.
There should be both a spoken and comprehension portion for every language.
SWG's language scrambler was pretty good too. Take Iridonain(zabrak), it was close to basic so you could get the gist of what someone was saying, but you would have no idea what someone was saying in shyriiwook.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I don't know how many languages you can learn in SWG, but if you're going to limit it, at least allow some way of unlocking the "hyper-polyglot" ability. Perhaps with a min int score as a pre-requisite...
Met a guy once, a humble school teacher, actually, who can fluently speak 40 languages. He originally set out to learn just English, but got a little carried away.
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There could also be foreign texts in books/tomes that can only be read by characters who are proficient with the language. (and goblins shouldn't write! =P)
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Goblin Squad Member
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This should be pretty simple considering Everquest had different languages back in 1999. You had common and your race language. There were books to learn new languages, some harder to obtain than others, and you could teach other players languages you knew simply by talking to them while grouped. Many players traded languages during the long boat rides between continents.
I don't believe each language was unique though. That would be difficult. If you didn't know a language being spoken the text was just random letters.
Part of the mechanical issue Goblinworks may have to address is starting racial languages for PFO vs. PnP, starting class languages for PFO vs. PnP, and gaining languages for PFO vs. PnP.
I believe it would be easiest to have characters begin play with Common and their native tongue (sorry, Humans, you only get Common) but allow for characters to learn any language so long as the training is available (skills, NPC trainer/quest, magic tomes, whatever). Some classes, such as Cleric and Druid, provide bonus languages you can start with at character creation (PnP), but in PFO, gaining your first level of Druid will probably automatically grant you Druidic as a bonus language.
I also believe it will be easiest if Druidic is unlearnable/unteachable except by gaining your first level of Druid. This keeps the language iconic for the Druid class and gets rid of tracking who taught what to who to (since Druids lose all their Druid stuff if they teach Druidic to a non-Druid... who may then teach Druidic to anyone without penalty... you know... other than being killed by Druids).
Perhaps Sorcerers of a specific blood-line automatically learn the language associated with their arcane power source?
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I really enjoyed some aspects of the SWG language system. I liked that if you had some skill in a language (expressed as a %) that percentage of something said in that language would be understandable, and the rest would be garbled.
I did not care for the fact that you could, with the ease of a few mouseclicks, just teach any or all languages you know to another character. While it may have encouraged a new player to seek out someone with language skills, this was easily done with a general yell in the starter spaceport, where someone you never had to see again could activate a macro and you're suddenly a polyglot.
I would love to see something similar done, but instead of just being able to teach a complete language outright, I would prefer a use-based skill system (similar to UO) that makes a skill check every time it translates or partially translates a statement in another language for you. (It would be limited to only making so many checks in a short time segment, and slightly more in longer time segments, to discourage quick-grinding... Something to the effect of a maximum of one check per minute, 30 checks pr hour, and 360 checks per day, and so on) Each check allows for a minimal improvement in skill (again, like UO, with larger gains at lower levels and smaller gains coming slower as you approach mastery). As you improve in skill, you begin to understand more and more of what is being said around you. You could not, btw, increase your skill in a language to be higher than the people speaking it that you're learning from. Wouldn't want a couple guys with .01% proficiency in Elven to just jabber away until they'd somehow mastered a language they'd barely even heard used... They'd practically be creating their own language doing that... more on that later.
Now for the interesting/controversial parts, muahahahah...
1st off, no "common". Characters begin with a racial and/or geographical language (or maybe even a geographical dialect of a racial language that qualifies as partial proficiency with the base racial language and any of its offshoots). Some characters may not be able to speak coherently to each other right off the bat. If you really want to play with a buddy from this guild you heard of, just be careful to pick the correct starting language and it'll be fine. They'll still learn other languages with exposure to them, it'll just be a gradual development that takes a little while.
2nd, this can allow for player created languages. Your settlement, or guild, or RL family members could "create" a new language skill (generally just by selecting a new generic language skill and giving it a name, such as Tony's Totally Legitimate Shorthand) and then deciding if it is learnable by anyone who hears it (they get to make skill checks as you speak in their vicinity), it can be learned by anyone but is difficult for outsiders (You get reduced opportunities for skill checks if you're not part of the same guild/etc.), or it is a "private" language, and only selected individuals or those of sufficient guild rank can learn it.
I'm sure many will see this as an unneeded complication and a waste of development time that could be better spent on their pet projects. That's fine, the idea isn't really for them anyway. It's for everyone else who thinks "Oh wow, that could be really cool! My guild could actually have our own in-game language, and we don't have to go learn Klingon or Zimbabwean to do it!"
To address the potential of player segregation by language in starter areas, I have a couple points. First off, if there are multiple starter areas, the game could suggest starting languages in order of local popularity. That way, you have some forewarning that you may have a more difficult time if you choose a particularly esoteric starting language (or it could even assign your starting area based on the language you chose, guaranteeing a greater likelihood of easy communication early on, while making distant lands even more exotic). Second, with the rapid advancement at low levels in the proposed advancement system, even if you didn't know any languages around you, you'd start to pic them up fairly rapidly, and should have at least enough to manage simple communication with most folks inside a short while, quicker if you actively attempt to communicate with people, the more experienced of whom are also more likely to have some familiarity with whatever starting language you chose, providing incentive to meet and associate with people who can understand you.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I like your ideas Starhammer. The regional is common, just dialectally so. I like the idea that people who speak the common of different areas might be mutually unintelligible.
I even like the rest of your ideas...but I do hope that languages do not become insignificant. Languages are part of our identity (or at least reflect a part) and they are not learned overnight or simply. There should be real hurtles involved in learning new languages and even with these hurtles it should be a slow increment. At the same time, it is usually much easier to learn related languages...
That's the personal opinion of a linguist for what its worth. As always, I am sure the rebuttal will have to do with fun vs. realism...for me, difficult challenges are the game. Every challenge removed in the name of "fun" removes some of the content from my game; removes the fun I am looking forward to.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think it's a dead-end road to discuss things like "no common language" since PFO is going to be going for the spirit of Pathfinder, which includes common as a language.
I'm also very skeptical of any suggestion to have some skills advance via use rather than the normal skill progression system. I actually think it makes perfect sense to require us to choose to train in a language, and for that training to occur just like the training we select to get better as a Wizard.
I think it's a dead-end road to discuss things like "no common language" since PFO is going to be going for the spirit of Pathfinder, which includes common as a language.
I'm also very skeptical of any suggestion to have some skills advance via use rather than the normal skill progression system. I actually think it makes perfect sense to require us to choose to train in a language, and for that training to occur just like the training we select to get better as a Wizard.
True, however I just can't bring myself to be very supportive of an advancement system where I learn to get better at things in game by logging off to play WoW or watch TV... It's as nonsensical as gaining proficiency in fishing by killing orcs.
I understand why they want that sort of advancement, however, there's no inherent need to shackle every aspect of the game to it. Of course we could just say, "It's a game, who cares? there's no actual need for different languages anyway. It's just a niche desire... like crafting, or crossbows, or any magic or other aspect of any MMO that doesn't translate directly into healing, DPS, crowd control, tanking/taunting or the buff/debuff of one of these."
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Goblin Squad Member
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... an advancement system where I learn to get better at things in game by logging off to play WoW or watch TV...
That's not accurate, and quite condescending. It's like saying "I get good grades in school by daydreaming". Sure, you might be daydreaming a lot, but it's kind of silly to say that's how you're getting good grades.
I encourage you to re-read this blog. If you have ideas about better advancement systems that accomplish the stated goals, I'm sure we'd all be glad to hear them.
... an advancement system where I learn to get better at things in game by logging off to play WoW or watch TV...That's not accurate, and quite condescending. It's like saying "I get good grades in school by daydreaming". Sure, you might be daydreaming a lot, but it's kind of silly to say that's how you're getting good grades.
Actually, it's not like saying I'm getting good grades because I'm daydreaming. It's like saying I'm getting good grades because I'm giving money to the teacher or school, and my grades will be good regardless of whether I study or daydream. Daydreaming may not teach me how to do anything useful related to the class, but as long as the transcripts are acknowledged by the school, I can use them on my resume.
I encourage you to re-read this blog.
Read it recently, just read it again, since you asked so politely. The "company vision" for character advancement in PFO is to emulate EVE Online and let players advance in skill without having to log in and play, because regardless of the complexity and potential difficulty in learning how to use the advancement system to make your character be what you want it to be, the benefits of keeping everyone on an even level (even though new players will never be able to be on a truly even level since they can, in Ryan Dancey's own words "never catch up") will outweigh the drawbacks.
Yes, there are "achievements" you can get for killing X enemies or climbing some mountaintop, but the things your character can actually "do" like what spells they can cast or items they can craft are locked out until you reach a certain level with the appropriate skill, which can only be attained over a predetermined period of time, or proportionately slower if you want to do more than one thing with your character, like cast spells and craft items...
That blog makes it quite clear that they want players to advance regardless of whether they actually participate. You call my view condescending. I call it reading what the man wrote. Of course now I'm worried that both quoting and disagreeing with a lead developer will simply get me banned.
If you have ideas about better advancement systems that accomplish the stated goals, I'm sure we'd all be glad to hear them.
I don't mind a system where advancement is throttled to prevent people from maxing out their level, grinding end game for awhile, then getting bored and moving on and/or selling their account. That stuff is just as harmful to a game's long term viability in my opinion.
I know my suggestion will fall on deaf ears, but even so, the compromise I would advise is a system of use-based advancement (not rewarding obnoxious things like jumping over and over for the sake of grinding skill like in Elder Scrolls) that throttles the increase of skill per use by implementing diminishing returns per time period. If you practice a skill over and over and over as fast as you can spam it, you'll get one or two normal gains, then little to nothing. If you use a skill once a minute, you'll make regular gains for a couple minutes and then it will taper off until the next hour, repeating the process to periods of days, weeks, and months. So instead of grinding things really fast, your best way to learn is to do things repeatedly over longer periods of time. Kinda like training and practice in real life.
Balance the diminishing returns, and then the daily crunchers, weekend warriors, and no-lifers will all see meaningful skill gains in return for their efforts, with those who spend more time playing having more opportunity for diversity, but little or no more potential for gaining more raw power. You will also not have anyone being rewarded for not playing, which ends up devaluing actual participation in the game.
@Starhammer, it sounds like you're willfully oblivious...
Actually I did precisely that, offered what I thought would be a better system that still managed to meet the needs of a varied playerbase... and you did not acknowledge that, but still took the time to insult me. And I'm the one who's being condescending.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Starhammer: When the words: skills, abilities, merit badges, achievements; are you using the definitions set forth in the Goblinworks blog?
Because 'skills', the character trait which builds over time, don't do what you project onto them. 'Abilities' the 'things your character can do', work more or less the way you want them to.
This sounds pretty cool. :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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I pretty much agree with the OP; it would be nice to have characters able to toggle between the languages that they can speak, and have them understand (read) the languages they understand and have the rest appear as gibberish.
It will be interesting what area is encompassed by "local" chat.
As a counter-argument, depending on how wide the game appeals, I'd guess you might have English-common, German-common, French-common, and Russian-common all appearing in chat at once. Before we holler "English only in chat!", maybe we should say "Common only in chat!".
As a counter-argument, depending on how wide the game appeals, I'd guess you might have English-common, German-common, French-common, and Russian-common all appearing in chat at once. Before we holler "English only in chat!", maybe we should say "Common only in chat!".
I never even took into consideration the fact we may have to deal with non-English speakers as a part of the "common" language.
Crap.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Everquest had this, but slowly as you were nearby you could gain skill in understanding their language. Which led to a lot of gatherings where people just spoke in their language.
I'm all for removal of general chat and being resorted to yells; like walking through a bazaar and people yelling what they have for sale.
I absolutely loved that part of EQ--very immersive. Maybe the best part was when you had been around another race, say trolls, and after a few hours a word here or there would be distinguishable between all the goobleyde-gook. A little like the "13th Warrior" film.
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I also like the idea of different languages in-game -- though the only place I've seen them implemented by the game itself was in WoW, where it was largely ignored anyway.
That said, when FF11(which had no such in-game languages) had Japanese, US and European players all on the same server, the fact that I personally could speak all of the main languages used *by the players* made my Red Mage pretty handy to have around. Until people stopped grouping with anyone from outside their own country, at least.
If you can introduce a niche for in-game linguists, that would be very nice - like, for example, a Dwarf NPC not hiking his prices up quite so high because this particular human was respectful enough to negotiate in Dwarven.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm no WoW fanboy but WoW got languages right. Use the WoW system for languages. Different languages are part of the D&D experience. It adds some interesting options, such as you would not BELIEVE how useful it was to have a diplomacy centered character who was of the saint character type. Saints came with the ability to speak in tounges (Which allows you to understand any spoken language and allows everyone to understand you when you speak in it.)
If you can introduce a niche for in-game linguists, that would be very nice - like, for example, a Dwarf NPC not hiking his prices up quite so high because this particular human was respectful enough to negotiate in Dwarven.
Exactly. Or it would give a diplomacy bonus when speaking to any NPC in their native languages. Beyond that you could give it uses in quests. You may be given a quest to go find an heirloom by a human lord but if you speak to his elven servant who doesn't understand common, you quickly learn that it is not his family heirloom but a stolen elven artifact. Opening a new option in the quest to bring down the corrupt human lord and return the artifact to it's rightful elven owners.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Rise, vile unthread, from thine eternal slumber.
I was thinking of something much like this, hoping different languages could be implemented. Of course, the 'minimum viable product' goal means these would not be in at launch (we'd all be speaking Common/Taldane), but I'd love to eventually be able to write my spellbooks in Jistka (the Golarion equivalent of Latin), Ancient Osirion (Egyptian), Azlanti (Greek), as well as languages like Elven (Welsh?), and Draconic (who knows?). Translation services would be another area for player-run craft and interaction.
Of course, the system wouldn't really translate these accurately as Blaeringr points out, but even a crappy Babelfish-style translation would be a relatively easy way to give the various languages their distinctive flavour.
Sapere Aude,
Keovar
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What about things like forgeries and false identification? These are also tied to the linguistics skill, and I think would help add another really great layer to the system regarding player identification, such as a person who wants to try and disguise their identity would typically use a bluff skill. With the added use of linguistics forgeries and fake IDs, it could add a significant bonus to the DC of the renown or sense motive check versus the disguised player.
One of the integral part of my old stand-by character was the fact that he had forged papers for pretty much every town he'd ever visit, and played the role of the supposed person at all times to keep his real name from being passed around.
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I'm no WoW fanboy but WoW got languages right. Use the WoW system for languages. Different languages are part of the D&D experience. It adds some interesting options, such as you would not BELIEVE how useful it was to have a diplomacy centered character who was of the saint character type. Saints came with the ability to speak in tounges (Which allows you to understand any spoken language and allows everyone to understand you when you speak in it.)
If you can introduce a niche for in-game linguists, that would be very nice - like, for example, a Dwarf NPC not hiking his prices up quite so high because this particular human was respectful enough to negotiate in Dwarven.Exactly. Or it would give a diplomacy bonus when speaking to any NPC in their native languages. Beyond that you could give it uses in quests. You may be given a quest to go find an heirloom by a human lord but if you speak to his elven servant who doesn't understand common, you quickly learn that it is not his family heirloom but a stolen elven artifact. Opening a new option in the quest to bring down the corrupt human lord and return the artifact to it's rightful elven owners.
This would also work well with what Mark Kalmes was saying during the recent Fear the Boot interview. He mentioned how they want there to be more options when dealing with humanoids then just killing them. Being able to speak their language opens up all kinds of options for interaction which is what he was hinting at.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think languages if this was a game with large regions that all have a native language. Then running into a person from a distant culture with a different language would be a meaningful experience. However, we will be getting a fairly small region to work with where everybody is mixed together from the start so the distinction between languages is pretty much meaningless only creating a communication barrier that people will bypass with VOIP or other third party software.
As it stands now the only real use for new languages would be as a pre-req for quests from unusual sources, like needing o know goblin to get a quest from a goblin. Secret languages might also work too, Druidic and more importantly Thieves Cant would allow for necessarily secret communications to take place. Even then they would probably far to easy to access to be meaningful and there are far more secure ways to talk than using thieves cant in public channels.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I love this idea. It opens up so many cool scenarios besides just things like NPC Diplomacy and race specific guilds.
I could see the higher ups of guilds learning some obscure language that they use during secret meetings and such so that even if they're being spied on the spy probably won't be able to get anything out of it anyway.
This should be pretty simple considering Everquest had different languages back in 1999. You had common and your race language. There were books to learn new languages, some harder to obtain than others, and you could teach other players languages you knew simply by talking to them while grouped. Many players traded languages during the long boat rides between continents.
I don't believe each language was unique though. That would be difficult. If you didn't know a language being spoken the text was just random letters.
EQ had a basic 'gobbledygook' for each language, if you didnt have the filter(given the language at creation), or were low in the skill, it was random letters and apostrophes.
which was good at first, but then everyone learned macros, and just spam-taught it to groups. It lessened the RP, but then again, EQ was the unique starting point at the top, and it was all downhill from there.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Thieves Cant
Thieves' Cant is mostly a lot of slang and jargon mixed into whatever language the users normally speak. Cockney rhyming slang is a good start.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Based on the OPs post, I had envisioned a WoW type language "translator". When someone selects to speak in a given language, if you understand the language, you see something similar to: "[Orcish] haha, that's funny!". Everyone around who does not speak Orcish on the other hand would see an incomprehensible jumble of characters organized roughly into what appears to be words(Like: "[Orcish]Grush'in ikin noch!". An algorithm would blur the speech segments and apply relevant phonological associations based upon a simple ruleset for each language.
I was under the impression speaking in multiple languages was gonna be like this anyway.
Only language this couldn't work for is Drow Sign Language, and I don't think they're ever gonna let us be Drow.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think languages if this was a game with large regions that all have a native language. Then running into a person from a distant culture with a different language would be a meaningful experience. However, we will be getting a fairly small region to work with where everybody is mixed together from the start so the distinction between languages is pretty much meaningless only creating a communication barrier that people will bypass with VOIP or other third party software.
As it stands now the only real use for new languages would be as a pre-req for quests from unusual sources, like needing o know goblin to get a quest from a goblin. Secret languages might also work too, Druidic and more importantly Thieves Cant would allow for necessarily secret communications to take place. Even then they would probably far to easy to access to be meaningful and there are far more secure ways to talk than using thieves cant in public channels.
I agree.
The only way I can see different languages working in PFO on a player to player level is having different communication channels, each one related to a particular language. So when a player learns a language it grants him acess to that channel. I this way, if you speak in the elven channel only who knows that language will understand, for the rest it would appear like some strange symbols that they cant understand or don´t appear at all.
But I'm not sure how much that would add flavour or simply add bureaucratic feature in the end. Need to be tested.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The only way I can see different languages working in PFO on a player to player level is having different communication channels, each one related to a particular language. So when a player learns a language it grants him acess to that channel. I this way, if you speak in the elven channel only who knows that language will understand, for the rest it would appear like some strange symbols that they cant understand or don´t appear at all.
That's certainly a unique way to do things, though I'm not sure how it would interact with a lot of the other common speech channels found in MMOs. I'd personally prefer the General/Trade/Region type channels not exist, though I think ones like 'guild' and 'tell' would still be valuable.
Everyone in the PFRPG gets 'Common', which in Golarion is also known as 'Taldane'. It isn't as if players could not communicate, but they could know other languages depending on their race or - in the case of humans - ethnicity.
As I mentioned before, they could just take a real-world language as the model for a Golarion tongue and use a Babelfish-style translator to swap out the words, so they don't need to try writing new languages or resorting to gibberish. For example, Swedish could work well for the Ulfen language Skald, and Danish could work for Dwarven, since they're related but not quite the same. Sure, some players could read the other languages, and others could use a reverse-translation hack, but the languages are there for flavour, not for gameplay power.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Yup, I remember this from EQ.
Program a macro to spam the same thing 10 times, group with guildmates and everyone spam there macro for a different language til we knew them all.
Real Fun....
I'd rather see time spent on one of the many missing races, skills, spells, PETS, character balance, pve content, hex control, settlements or any of the multitude of things not yet defined as being ready for release.