we are all familiar with the ring of sustanance, a cheap magic item that reduces your need for sleep and removes the need for food and water. so, do you like it and what do you use it for?
personally i like it, as it gives 6 hours for the party's highest perception modifier to be on watch while everyone else sleeps. it's also good for crafting in the field, as even though that six hours is halved to three when in the field it's still extra time working on your magic item/whatever. if speed is of the essence and for some reason magical transportation is out of the equation then this thing is valueable as it gives A) more travelling time, and B) no need to stop for food and water.
thoughts please.
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I think it adds a nice bit to world building. Example:
It's a great piece of role-playing fluff as well as mechanically useful.
You can do anything and everything for 6 hours more per day. That's solidly useful.
You never have to worry about carrying food and water. That's useful.
You can prep spells with minimal rest. That's REALLY useful.
Mix with Endure Elements and you basically have level 1 Maslowe's Heirarchy of Needs completely taken care of...no need for food or shelter!
==Aelryinth
Totally, that and Handy Haversack are my two favorite items in the game
I like it for crafting and RP of not having to eat, sleep (much) or drink is always kinda of interesting.
One of the best rings in the game considering its costs.
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You can prep spells with minimal rest. That's REALLY useful.
==Aelryinth
It's not all that great if everyone else in the party doesn't have one and it means that spellcasters have a much longer time that they have to make their spells last since you can only prepare spells once per day. I mean sure you can keep watch for the rest of the party which is always good.
It is a situational item though. Not in terms of the game, but in terms of your GM.
If your GM closely tracks food and sleep then it's almost a must-have item, but if your GM tends to handwave such things it can just be taking up a ring slot.
MY DM LIKES NIGHT AMBUSHES. 5 OF THEM EVERY NIGHT OR SOMETHING.
I love them. One of my first items to get when i'm playing (unless my build needs mithral armor, like my now deceased bard/oracle). They don't actually let you travel more per day, unless you stop for 3 hours or so, make camp, sleep, and then start moving again.
we are all familiar with the ring of sustanance, a cheap magic item that reduces your need for sleep and removes the need for food and water. so, do you like it and what do you use it for?
personally i like it, as it gives 6 hours for the party's highest perception modifier to be on watch while everyone else sleeps. it's also good for crafting in the field, as even though that six hours is halved to three when in the field it's still extra time working on your magic item/whatever. if speed is of the essence and for some reason magical transportation is out of the equation then this thing is valueable as it gives A) more travelling time, and B) no need to stop for food and water.
thoughts please.
Its cheaper than food, water and whatnot as well as horses or pack-mules to carry it all (and THIER food and water) when going on extended foray into the Underdark or across the dessert.
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My take on the ring is that it is just too meta-gamey. It has become so common that it's almost become a caster item tax. Most of the folks I game with who play casters buy one of these as soon as they possibly can.
When a feat, item or spell becomes that ubiquitous it means something is wrong with the rules or the item. Like a pack full of CLW wands.
I personally only get the ring if every other caster is getting it, because then if you don't have one, you become an impediment to the party's adventuring.
Which, again, demonstrates that something's wrong with the rules or the item or both.
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I don't buy Rings of Sustenance for my characters since eating, especially when you're hungry, is awesome.
If your GM closely tracks food and sleep then it's almost a must-have item,
That's what makes me luke-warm about the ring of sustenance: ironically, it comes in most handy in games where it also is an immersion breaker in the theme(s) proposed by the DM.
The item is really only balanced in games where tracking food and sleep is monitored but not seriously enforced (or at least not a important theme of the game), but I wonder if this is the majority...
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I take it as often as I can, but no one else in my gaming group does, so I usually take up the post as night guard. Everyone else gets to sleep soundly while I get the heroic feeling that comes with being a watchful guardian.
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My take on the ring is that it is just too meta-gamey. It has become so common that it's almost become a caster item tax. Most of the folks I game with who play casters buy one of these as soon as they possibly can.
When a feat, item or spell becomes that ubiquitous it means something is wrong with the rules or the item. Like a pack full of CLW wands.
I personally only get the ring if every other caster is getting it, because then if you don't have one, you become an impediment to the party's adventuring.
Which, again, demonstrates that something's wrong with the rules or the item or both.
Interestingly, I've never encountered or even heard of this. I generally consider it for a while, but usually pass on it. I find it rather easy to keep track of my rations.
Further, are you sure casters can prepare after just two hours of sleep? I thought they always needed 8 hours, regardless of sleep. Or is that 3.5 and me not yet adapting?
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Personally, I hate the thing. I think it takes the role-playing out of the role-playing game.
Not only that, but for groups with Rangers it basically turns the "Survival" skill into simply "Track." Part of the fun of being a Ranger is surviving. When a super-low-cost ring does all the work for you... what's the point?
For groups where keeping track of rations/water isn't important, it's a waste of a magic item slot. For groups where keeping track of rations/water is important, it's a cheat code. And everyone knows that playing games with a cheat code is only fun for about 5 minutes before it gets boring.
I realize we're talking about a world where magic is the norm, so my issue with the ring isn't so much that it exists, but more than it's so damn cheap. The thing should cost a TON of gold if it replaces basic life functions so well.
Personally, when I GM, I do one of two things: Either the ring doesn't exist, or it works like an IV drip. In other words, you'll survive, but you'll be so hungry and/or thirsty after a while that you're literally starving to death, but since you're technically getting what you need to survive, you won't die.
For the arcane casters: keep in mind that the ring of sustenance reduces the need for sleep - BUT - it does not get around the problem that a given spell slot cannot be refilled for 8 hours after use. So a wizard cannot cast spells when their camp is ambushed at 4am, then sleep a couple of hours with the recovery power of the ring, and then prepare spells into the spell slots that he used during the ambush earlier.
As I said earlier my problem with that reasoning is (1) you could increase the cost if you feel its too low and (2) you can expand it to everything that makes life easier . . . inventing the telephone? A cheat code, creating a +x magical weapon? a cheat code, learning mordenkainens magnificent mansion? a cheat code, inventing the wheel so you can move large amounts of goods? a cheat code.
You're going to the absolute extremes here though.
"I want to talk to someone in another country, but boy, waiting on that horse-delivered letter sure takes a really long time. I wonder if there's a better way..." -The TelephoneThis is WAY different than:
"Man, eating! I hate it, it takes up all my valuable time! Sleeping too! There's got to be a way I can cut out the "living" part of "living my life!" -Ring of Sustenance
One of these two is trying to turn a difficult thing into a simpler one. The other is a complete megalomaniac. Can you tell which one is which? I can.
Besides, it's still a fact that classes that are built around the Survival skill (notably Rangers) are suddenly reduced to less-impressive Fighters with a bump to tracking.
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My take on the ring is that it is just too meta-gamey. It has become so common that it's almost become a caster item tax. Most of the folks I game with who play casters buy one of these as soon as they possibly can.
When a feat, item or spell becomes that ubiquitous it means something is wrong with the rules or the item. Like a pack full of CLW wands.
I personally only get the ring if every other caster is getting it, because then if you don't have one, you become an impediment to the party's adventuring.
Which, again, demonstrates that something's wrong with the rules or the item or both.
I agree completely - but then again I also have issues with every character having 8-10 magic items each and buying and selling them like kids trade pokemon cards.
Our campaign is what I suppose you would call 'low magic'... most characters only have 3-5 magic items but every one of them is unique, and the only magic items available for common sale are potions and trinkets like a Hand of the Mage or a Chime of Opening.
The group all recieved cloaks as a gift from the elves after finishing a big campaign involving them that combines Cloaks of Elevnkind and Cloaks of Protection +2, but none of them would ever consider selling them. One of them, the bard, also got flower from a sacred tree that, when worn in her hair, works like a Headband of Alluring Charisma and a small carved box to keep it in (stasis spell on things placed in the box)...
I just hate generic magic items or having the party going to Ye Olde Magic Shoppe to trade in their old stuff for new and improved items. I also hate character builds that are optimized based on the presumption of being able to acquire a laundry list of magical items. I know I'm probably in the minority, but its just not the way I game. Magic should be, well... magical.
If the entire group had access to Rings of Sustenance I'd only use the version that replaced food and drink, not sleep, and the party would probably have to pay to get them re-enchanted every so often.
The ring isn't a caster item tax. It doesn't absolutely nothing extra for casters:
If the character does not need to sleep for some reason, he still must have 8 hours of restful calm before preparing any spells.
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A sorcerer or bard needs 8 hours of rest (just like a wizard)
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A divine spellcaster chooses and prepares spells ahead of time, but unlike a wizard, does not require a period of rest to prepare spells. Instead, the character chooses a particular time of day to pray and receive spells.
The ring just affects how much sleep you need, while spells specifically call out that they need the full 8 hours regardless of sleep (or for divine, it happens only at one moment of the day).
The ring is not necessary for casters. It's really just a good night watch ring, the Fighter (or the guy with high perception) should be using it.
It's also good for long-term adventuring, where food and water might be hard to come by, although at least divine casters tend to not have problems with that either (create water, create food and water, goodberry, etc).
The fact that you need to be 7th level to get Forge Ring (to make it yourself), and it takes up an important slot (lots of nice rings), makes it kind of weak. That and it takes 1 week to attune.. so no saving a found prisoner on the spot kind of thing, either. The ioun stone is not as fickle, but the crafting requirements are as atrocious ("must" be caster level 12th).
As far as concepts go, I prefer the sustaining spoon as a food/water resolution. Yeah, you need to actively use it, have a container handy, etc, but it produces food that anyone can use. A little more versatility, and while a bit more pricey, crafting it should be simpler.
And you can get around the flavour problem with a simple Prestidigitation cantrip.
My current character is in the process of devising a Utility Jack, that contains (among other things) a canteen that can produce hot or cold water, and a spoon that can flavour and purify food and drink. Never gonna leave home without it.
i think this quote's from Treantmonk's profile: 'a ranger is never late, nor is he early. he always arrives procisely when the DM wants him to.' in other words, track isn't acutally a class feature. it's a DM tool that's been foisted onto the players.
personally, as my regular DM loves night-time ambushes which ignore even the most elaborate preperations, i find the reduced sleep worth its weight in gold for any character with a decent perception skill. as to it invalidating rangers with survival... survival still finds good campsites, predicts weather, grants save bonuses against enviromental effects, avoids natural hazards like quicksand... and the list goes on. i'd therefore suggest that the ring doesn't invalidate survival as a skill at all.
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Specific over-rules the general in PFPRG.
Ring of Sustenance
Aura faint conjuration; CL 5th
Slot ring; Price 2,500 gp; Weight —
Description
This ring continually provides its wearer with life-sustaining nourishment. The ring also refreshes the body and mind, so that its wearer needs only sleep 2 hours per day to gain the benefit of 8 hours of sleep. This allows a spellcaster that requires rest to prepare spells to do so after only 2 hours, but this does not allow a spellcaster to prepare spells more than once per day. The ring must be worn for a full week before it begins to work. If it is removed, the owner must wear it for another week to reattune it to himself.
Construction
Requirements Forge Ring, create food and water; Cost 1,250 gp
@Kaisoku: GeraintElberion is correct: the amount of sleep before preparing spells is indeed reduced to 2 hours. No worries there. But:
Recent Casting Limit/Rest Interruptions: If a wizard has cast spells recently, the drain on his resources reduces his capacity to prepare new spells. When he prepares spells for the coming day, all the spells he has cast within the last 8 hours count against his daily limit.
In other words, a particular spell slot cannot be refilled within 8 hours of being used. This is true regardless of sleep considerations.
Huh.. change from 3.X to Pathfinder I didn't notice for some reason. Alright then, it actually is a more useful item for wizards/sorcerers after all.
Personally, I hate the thing. I think it takes the role-playing out of the role-playing game.
Not only that, but for groups with Rangers it basically turns the "Survival" skill into simply "Track." Part of the fun of being a Ranger is surviving. When a super-low-cost ring does all the work for you... what's the point?
For groups where keeping track of rations/water isn't important, it's a waste of a magic item slot. For groups where keeping track of rations/water is important, it's a cheat code. And everyone knows that playing games with a cheat code is only fun for about 5 minutes before it gets boring.I realize we're talking about a world where magic is the norm, so my issue with the ring isn't so much that it exists, but more than it's so damn cheap. The thing should cost a TON of gold if it replaces basic life functions so well.
Personally, when I GM, I do one of two things: Either the ring doesn't exist, or it works like an IV drip. In other words, you'll survive, but you'll be so hungry and/or thirsty after a while that you're literally starving to death, but since you're technically getting what you need to survive, you won't die.
I love the fact that you like the skill survival. However I feel as if it's more interesting to be concerned about the "insert conflict here" rather than when you're going to eat. However I can see exceptions where I wouldn't allow the ring myself such as a desert campaign. Perhaps I'd make the item a little more expensive.
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@Kaisoku: GeraintElberion is correct: the amount of sleep before preparing spells is indeed reduced to 2 hours. No worries there. But:
Recent Casting Limit/Rest Interruptions: If a wizard has cast spells recently, the drain on his resources reduces his capacity to prepare new spells. When he prepares spells for the coming day, all the spells he has cast within the last 8 hours count against his daily limit.In other words, a particular spell slot cannot be refilled within 8 hours of being used. This is true regardless of sleep considerations.
Very true, It's most useful if you battled your way through foes at lunchtime: You can sleep first and have your spells back before the second half of the night.
2 hours sleep is often more useful for your heavy armour guy: only a two hour window in which he can be caught with his armour off.
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I couldn't give a crap about trying to prepare spells more than once per day, you obviously can't. I also wouldn't mind if the eating and drinking boon was removed entirely from the ring.
The real advantage of the ring has its basis in the heavy sleep restrictions imposed on arcane casters.
Rest: To prepare his daily spells, a wizard must first sleep for 8 hours. The wizard does not have to slumber for every minute of the time, but he must refrain from movement, combat, spellcasting, skill use, conversation, or any other fairly demanding physical or mental task during the rest period. If his rest is interrupted, each interruption adds 1 hour to the total amount of time he has to rest in order to clear his mind, and he must have at least 1 hour of uninterrupted rest immediately prior to preparing his spells. If the character does not need to sleep for some reason, he still must have 8 hours of restful calm before preparing any spells.
Best case, a wizard needs 8 hours of rest and an hour of spellbook study time, for a total of 9 hours. If you're interrupted in any way during your rest that 9 hours suddenly becomes 10. Interrupted twice? Welcome to 11 hours out of action. Conversation is called out as enough to interrupt rest.
I wouldn't even mind if the ring only reduced sleep needs to 4 or 6 hours. If other characters don't get enough sleep they might be fatigued (roughly -1 to hit/damage and -1 to AC, can't run or charge). That's a hindrance, but at least you're still functional. A wizard or sorcerer is much more heavily penalized.
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I love the fact that you like the skill survival. However I feel as if it's more interesting to be concerned about the "insert conflict here" rather than when you're going to eat.
It all depends on the themes of the game. Being a (medieval) fantasy game, these themes usually revolve around the fact that technology hasn't yet facilitated the life of the citizen of the world. Magic replaces technology to a certain extent, but magic should remain somewhat out-of-reach to remain magical and mystical. But I agree that a game should concern itself about "insert conflict here" however.
I guess that's where high fantasy starts to differ from sword and sorcery, but 'conflict' doesn't have to come from goblins all the times. Struggle for survival does include having to find food, water, fighting the elements etc.
Now whether a group prefers to keep 'conflict' to armed confrontations between PCs and monsters is a legitimate play-style choice, but I don't think that other types of conflict should be hand-waved and deemed too 'lowly' for the concerns of players in general. And if they are unworthy of concern, the method shouldn't be a via a cheap magic item IMO.
So while I don't have prejudice against one style of game over the other, I generally don't like items like the ring of sustenance because at it was mentioned earlier, the same item becomes almost irrelevant for one play-style, and an under-priced immersion breaker for the other.
'findel
Personally I don't feel eating or drinking is an essential part of "Living my life". Its an essential part of living but if I had the option of only sleeping 2 hours a night, not needing to eat or drink then I'd probably take it as I don't have enough time to get everything I want done. Playing games, reading books, learning to draw, working etc etc.
If you want a less extreme example how about.
Cloak of resistance = cheat code for deserts.
Boots of tundra = cheat code for cold lands.
Ring of water breathing = cheat code for underwater environments.
Fly = cheat code to get around ravines/walls.
Divination spells = cheat codes to find things.
You'll spend half your life eating and sleeping. If you get to live 80 years, that will make 40 years spent eating and sleeping. Compared to that, you might be working and earning a salary for the equivalent of 20 years, 25 if you work a lot. I consider that an essential part of my life.
As for your other examples, most of them are tools to make something better or easier, as if a ring of sustenance gave you a bonus to find food or water, or let you know with 100% certainty where and when you could get some. As for the ability to fly, it is considered a cheat code by many...
'findel
I would also point out that a Ring of Sustenance satisfies all need to eat and drink...but it does NOT say you can't eat and drink.
basically, what would happen is you'd end up eating only for pleasure, instead of neccessity. You wouldn't eat slop, trail rations, worms, moldy bread, whatever the stew is at the inn. No, you'd only bother to spend money on fine food that you enjoyed, because you could just pass up the drek.
Definitely a must-have item for nobles, and anyone who wants to do some crafting.
the 8 hours to open a spell slot rule is a problem for all casters, not those with sustenance. Those with sustenance just don't need to be caught sleeping.
Having only one guy with a ring standing guard is a recipe for disaster. One failed will save and you are totally sunk.
==Aelryinth
I generally pass on the ring, even with my spellcasters, because I'd rather have other rings, and I refuse to wear a mummified hand.
For my synthesist summoner, however, it's going to be a must-have.
Doubling it up with another ring costs 500 gp, Rammarren. Also still more then worth the cost.
==Aelryinth
The ring is a fun RP item, but I hardly see it as "necessary" for any character.
Not needing to eat is nice, but nothing a few rations or survival checks can't take care of. Not needing to sleep is more useful, but all you really save is not having to actually "get up" when something happens during rest time. Handy for those who can't sleep in armour, but everyone else saves maybe the move action it takes to stand up.
Arcane casters get some extra benefit, only needing 2 hours of rest to prep spells, but even that is of limited use. They still need to spend 8 hours not casting if they want to prep all their spells. Besides, you can only adventure for 8 hours before becoming fatigued, and craft for 4. That leaves 12 hours out of the day that are more or less unusable. At least not usable for anything significant. The difference between sleeping and sitting for those 12 hours isn't all that great.
Overall, a fun and useful item, but not game breakingly awesome.
In general, when any item, feat or power becomes absolutely essential to an entire SET of classes, it's an indication of poor rules writing.
In most of my campaigns the only "role playing" that ever comes up around this ring is when some poor sap of a caster finds a "better" ring and has to decide which one to wear for awhile.
In one campaign I just gave a whole set to the party in their first encounter just to get it over with.
It seems to me your applying one set of standards to the rings you like and a different set to rings of sustenancein which case its not really worth continuing this discussion. Incidently just because you spend 40 years eating, popping and sleeping doesn't mean you consider a part of "living" as opposed to a chore. Me I'd rather have the 40 years to memorize spells, draw pictures, play games or just relax and watch the fire.
Hey, don't get me wrong. If I could buy a way to go without sleep when I don't feel like sleeping, and have me and the kids go without food when I don't feel like cooking supper; I'd buy it too! Who wouldn't want to play more, relax more or - if you're a bit of a masochist - work more.
But that's just it, having to eat, breathe and sleep are the basics of survival. Removing the need for these is removing a significant part of the struggle to remain alive. In a campaign were this is an important theme the ring of sustenance is, as Neo puts it, a cheat code. If this is not an important theme for that game, then I question the pertinence of the item in the first place. Basically, my biggest gripe is that the "strength" of a ring of sustenance is very campaign specific and this appears to me like poor design.
This differs from the ability of flight in the sense that in a game where "player vs elements" is an important theme, the ability to fly can be seen as a cheat code (especially if bestowed continually for a cheap sum of gp). But even in a game where crossing the river or the canyon isn't a big deal, the players are still assumed to be land-based and other "height challenges" might not be that easily hand-waved (such as attacking the flying dragon, getting inside the fortress etc). Therefore the ability of flight is still relevant.
For me if an item is essential to an entire set of classes it might as a seperate issue be underpriced but its also obviously filling a percieved need in this case more free time and less concern about basic needs. Sometimes most would see as a good thing.
Heh, if you made a list of items you think I "don't seem to have a problem" with, you might be surprised to see how consistent my application of the concept I stated above is.
As a player and/or a GM I have to admit that I have become quite jaded and blase about a whole bunch of common magic items and how they have become item or feat taxes for entire parties.
That's mostly because I get real tired of cookie-cutter builds that are created and played as close to identically as you can get in this game.
When every single caster in the party is sporting the ring, and every backpack has a couple of CLW wands, and every backpack just happens to be a handy haversack, etc. etc. etc... Many campaign activities tend to become exercises in repetition...
Sure, if the PF world were real, and the rings were that cheap, then everyone would have one. But it's not a real world, it's a game world, and in a game world the rules should encourage diversity and variation, not sameness and repetition.
Just my $.02....
Not to mention, 'role'playing does still exist. Crazy, I know...
Some of my characters would feel... unnatural... by using an item that gave them that much more in common with an undead. Then again, some of my other characters would be totally fine with that.
Bottom line, in my groups, I'm almost always the ONLY person who doesn't buy this ring, and it's almost always to troll my gaming group. When an item is ~that~ good, it breaks the game.
*yawns* It forever amuses me the things that people decree as broken on these boards. I've been posting here for quite a while and still I fail to comprehend it. It seems alien to my mind.
It would be funny to see the reaction to the 3.0 ring of sustenance which was far, far better, as it allowed all the benefits of 8 hours of sleep in 2. None of this "you can't prepare spells more than once per day" junk. It was a nice little bauble at 2,500 gp that allowed for quick-recharging of all your daily features (be they spells, rage, bardic music, whatever). The funny thing is...
Well it still wasn't a problem. Haha. :3
I find it odd that your saying outright that ring of sustenance takes away a key ability of rangers fluffwise. If you really role played it, all the ring does is make you able to survive without eating. I dunno about you, but I actually enjoy eating, so unless I'm in a situation where food is impossible to come by, I will still eat my rations for that day. I'm also going to be more inclined to buy it in a campaign looking to be set out in the wilderness where I might get stranded or be out and about or possibly even hurrying for a long period of time.
It all comes down to how you role play it guys, dont instantly assume that just because your character doesn't HAVE to do something anymore, doesn't mean they won't, or might not enjoy it every now and then.
Asta
PSY
Six extra hours a day is pretty powerful. Also you can still eat if you want to with the ring on. You just don't have to eat.