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I've been looking at splint mail and I really see no reason as to even use it. It has a worse Armor Check Penalty than Full-plate, it has no max dex bonus and it has a higher chance of failure when casting in it. I know a fighter's Armor Training would grant more dex but I don't really see this armor as worth taking.
Splint mail: 45 lbs, 200 gp
Full Plate: 50 lbs, 1,500 gp
It's like asking why you would want a Saturn when you could have a Ferrari.
Because your character would wear it. Because better armor isn't available.
It's lighter than the plate options. It's cheaper than everything else in the heavy category. Those can both be reasons to use it.
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Splint mail: 45 lbs, 200 gp
Full Plate: 50 lbs, 1,500 gpIts like asking why you would want a Saturn when you could have a Ferrari.
I was just using the full plate example because there is a lot more to a suit of full plate armor than there is splint mail.
You would actually end up being better getting a breastplate or spend the extra 50gp and get banded mail.
Because it is the cheapest +7 Armor bonus one can get? Really that is the only reason to pick it out of the other heavy armors. Other than that, you got random loot and this was in it and you were looking for some heavy armor, but didn't have any. Oh, because it is cheapest, it is the fastest to produce if you need to make some from scratch and are on a short schedule.
Reading above posts. I need to post faster. Regardless, these are indicative of the answers you will get.
Splint mail: 45 lbs, 200 gp
Full Plate: 50 lbs, 1,500 gpIts like asking why you would want a Saturn when you could have a Ferrari.
I was just using the full plate example because there is a lot more to a suit of full plate armor than there is splint mail.
You would actually end up being better getting a breastplate or spend the extra 50gp and get banded mail.
Or you could have 0 or negative dex modifier and don't want to spend extra for a higher max dex that you could never take advantage of. It's not rocket science.
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Nobody in their right mind would buy it. The absolute optimum corner case for splint mail is low level, no dex bonus, and no more than 249 gp (including trade-in value) and NOTHING better to spend it on.
Even then...save the money for proper armor or buy a trained dog to help you stay alive until you have the cash.
It's a specific design decision. If everything was equally useful, there would be not point in having different equipments and build design would be pointless.
Being able to identify the best equipment and become more powerful through it is part of the fun, that's why there needs to be bad/less useful equipment.
And that's why it's OK to print stuff like Prone shooter, I suppose?
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Nobody in their right mind would buy it. The absolute optimum corner case for splint mail is low level, no dex bonus, and no more than 249 gp (including trade-in value) and NOTHING better to spend it on.
Even then...save the money for proper armor or buy a trained dog to help you stay alive until you have the cash.
I'm sorry if I don't care for dex and chose to be a (insert class that wears heavy armor here) at level 1. Maybe if I went more mainstream I wouldn't be mocked on the messageboards.
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Because armoring my security detail for 1400 gp is better than for 10500 gp.
Regards, the Stingy Sorcerer.
I've been looking at splint mail and I really see no reason as to even use it. It has a worse Armor Check Penalty than Full-plate, it has no max dex bonus and it has a higher chance of failure when casting in it. I know a fighter's Armor Training would grant more dex but I don't really see this armor as worth taking.
Not all armors are created equally, just like not all weapons are. Splint mail is generally not a favorite of PCs because it's too restrictive and most PCs have a lot of Dexterity, or will have a lot of Dexterity, and so on.
Splint mail sees a lot of use on my NPCs however. Most NPCs are built on 3 point buy. For a 1st level warrior with a 10-11 Dexterity, with only 260 gp, splint mail is an affordable +7 AC with virtually no drawback, that still lets him spend about 20 gp on weapons and have money left over for some alchemist fire or similar.
Likewise, at low levels, it's a solid option for PCs with low-ish Dexterity scores who want a better flat-footed AC.
Probably less likely to be considered, it's easier to bard your mounts in splint mail than it is to bard them in more impressive gear. It costs about 4 times as much as the listed cost to bard a large quadruped in armor, so being able to give the critter a +7 bonus that stacks with natural armor for 800 gp is much more reasonable than spending 6,000 gp to put them in plate barding. This is especially useful with animals like aurochs/oxen/bison who are physically strong but not exceptionally nimble.
It might seem strange, but not every option is created equal, and I don't really think it should be. I'm fine with clubs being inferior to maces, for example, because it's not supposed to be equal, but it is supposed to be an option. Not everything exists just to be used by PCs. :)
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Nobody in their right mind would buy it. The absolute optimum corner case for splint mail is low level, no dex bonus, and no more than 249 gp (including trade-in value) and NOTHING better to spend it on.
Which means it's perfect for warrior henchmen.
My sorcerer's security detail consists of a 5th level rogue (cohort) and 7 2nd level warriors. Spending 1400 gp to give them armor was well-worth it. Spending 10500 for full-plate is out of the question, and the 1750 for banded mail would only reduce their check penalty by 1, which I don't really care about.
Now, MASTERWORK splint mail on the other hand...
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If everything was equally useful, there would be not point in having different equipments and build design would be pointless.
I disagree with this, although I agree with the rest of your post.
The game should include equally useful things for characters in different situations and with different needs. Then it becomes fun to select the best equipment for your own personal needs, limited by your own personal restrictions, which can be monetary. But items that are sub-optimal in every situation and for everyone shouldn't clutter the game IMO.
In this case, the splint mail has its niche when compared to padded leather or platemail, but since the banded mail fills the niche already (and better for very similar parameters), so I tend to see it as wasted printed space. If 50gp had a significant impact on the life of an adventurer, I'd understand, but it's not the case in D&D. Even on larger scale such as equipping a retinue of soldiers, I don't think the option is that pertinent. I'd be happy with the splint mail as an aesthetic variation on the banded mail.
I have the same issue over chainmail vs breastplate; which is only made more painful by the fact that chainmail was such a popular armour historically, and such a poor choice in Pathfinder...
'findel
ok, threadjack time. similar situation: padded armour vrs haramki (UC). if your DM allows the asian themed armour there is no realistic reason other than flavor to take padded armour over a haramki (Which is cheaper, has better max dex (no limit) same armour value and better ASF chance. and it's lighter, too.)
and even, even if your arguing that not all DMs will allow the oriental armour then take this one on: Haramki (3gp, 1lb) vrs Silken ceremonial armour (30gp, 4lb) with otherwise the same stat line. i mean, really?
There are several options the asian armors make obsolete
Four mirror armor is chain mail that weighs 5 lbs more but cost 105 gold less.
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Back in 3rd edition, Living Greyhawk was so brutal (and not always profitable) that many players (including me) would upgrade our armor several times, with Scale > Splint > fullplate, being a common sequence.
For a low-level PC, there's a pretty big cash jump between 200gp non-masterwork splint and 1650gp MWFP -- and LG would throw Power Attacking ogres at you 3rd-level. The extra AC over scale would save your butt over the course of the four or five mods you'd play to scrap the money together.
Armor was always problematic* with 3E. The differences in cost between the individual pieces is negligible compared to the wealth characters have available a few levels into the game. So you will see pretty much exclusively chain shirts, breastplates** and full plate armor on PCs. The only exception would be the other light armours for characters with very high DEX.
*poorly designed, really - IMO.
**agile breastplates with AA
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I have the same issue over chainmail vs breastplate; which is only made more painful by the fact that chainmail was such a popular armour historically, and such a poor choice in Pathfinder...
Except that, in a world where both options exist simultaneously, the impression of 'breastplate' being that much better than 'chainmail' is accurate. Chainmail was an extremely popular option for a long time, because while it requires a whole lot of labor to make a decent hauberk, it doesn't take a whole lot of skill... the skills, and sufficient metallurgy, to make really good breastplates, were relatively late in arriving-- but when they did become common and readily available (at reasonable prices), chainmail as a main-stay of armor virtually disappeared (still had a place in things like coifs and at joints and such-- because of its flexibility; the chain shirt as back-up armor also seems reasonable but I'm trying to remember if they actually did that back in the day).
Even in earlier times, the Roman Legions started off relying primarily on the Lorica Squamata (Scale mail); until they developed the Lorica Hamata (Chain mail)-- but when the Romans developed the Lorica Segmentata (essentially a 'banded mail' type Cuirass), the chain-mail Lorica Hamata was phased out wherever the legionnaires could get their hands on the Lorica Segmentata.
The game does not account for various types of armor passing in and out of use as technology advanced, instead assuming that all of these things are available and remain in more or less common use at the same time in the game-world (same thing applies to a lot of weapons). I think the coexistence of Splint Mail and Banded Mail is another side effect of this principle... though it's hard to figure out what historical types of armor each of these two game armor types is really supposed to represent (Splint is a lot easier to make, or at least requires less knowledge and skill, than banded apparently though-- although banded is probably a good representation of a 'coat of plates', which wasn't that hard to make once people figured out the design/idea).
Except that, in a world where both options exist simultaneously, the impression of 'breastplate' being that much better than 'chainmail' is accurate.
Right. But historical accuracy is not much of a factor in D&D like gaming, don't you agree?
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Except that, in a world where both options exist simultaneously, the impression of 'breastplate' being that much better than 'chainmail' is accurate.Right. But historical accuracy is not much of a factor in D&D like gaming, don't you agree?
Yes, I agree with you.
But it does explain why splint mail and chain mail 'suck' compared to the other options-- they're lower tech. :)
Finn K has the right of it.
Splint mail exists on the lists for a VERY good reason, historical purists. Splinted armor is an earlier technology. Some DMs are very particular about historical accuracy. In a Dark Ages setting, Plate armors don't exist and Breastplates would be enormously expensive. Splinted armor would be the best armor available in some cases. Not everyone is willing to allow everything on the lists.
Oddly the most prevalent armor from medieval Europe is not in Pathfinder, a layered combination of chain and a Brigandine overtunic (Brigandine is an armor where small overlapping plates are stitched to a leather tunic). So while historical accuracy has a place it's not as important as previous editions, Splint, banded, scale and studded leather are artifacts of earlier editions; they are not present as optimal choices, they are present as they've always been there and some of us would miss the legacy items.
Also while it's not in PFRPG, some games involve various armor degradation rules. The cheaper armor is a good choice in those games, since replacing armor frequently is expensive.
I guess i was wrong - there are valid reasons for splint mail to exist in the rulebook.
I was going to comment on the armor degradation idea, then I checked the rule text on Make Whole. As written, it repairs 1d4 hp. Really? 1d4?
How about Field Plate vs. Banded?
By description, they're the same thing, but they still have slightly different stats.
How about Field Plate vs. Banded?
By description, they're the same thing, but they still have slightly different stats.
Historically field plate IS full plate armor.
The word "field" is to differentiate from tournament or jousting armor, which was not used in real war, because it was too heavy and rigid.
So it is pretty much nonsense that field plate was introduced, because it should be the same as full plate.
It would have made more sense to introduce a super-heavy tournament armour (I am not sure about the terminology, in german its "Gestechrüstung" / "Turnierrrüstung" for tournament armour and "Feldrüstung" / "Kriegsrüstung" for field plate).
EDIT:
Rüstkammer in Dresden has excellent examples:
tournament armour / Gestechrüstung
(late, like 16th century) field plate / Kriegs- or Feldrüstung
Right. But historical accuracy is not much of a factor in D&D like gaming, don't you agree?
Depends. If the DM and the players know similar amounts about history, then working in historical detail will make the world feel more 'real' to them and that's probably worth doing.
If the players don't know, or if they don't care, or if adhering to historical details gets in the way of the story, then history gets pushed aside, of course.
Right. But historical accuracy is not much of a factor in D&D like gaming, don't you agree?
Depends. If the DM and the players know similar amounts about history, then working in historical detail will make the world feel more 'real' to them and that's worth doing.
If the players don't know, or if they don't care, or if adhering to historical details gets in the way of the story, then history gets pushed aside, of course.
In my opinion the whole over-the-top high fantasy / high magic concept of D&D like games / Pathfinder kind of destroys any attempt to use historical details to make the world feel more "real".
But I see opinions can differ.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
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Splint mail is also great for NPCs.
Guard #3 at the castle gate doesn't care about armor check penalties, as the odds of him needing to cross any rivers or scale any walls are pretty remote (I mean come on, the castle's got ladders for a reason).
And, since he put his top two scores into Str and Con, he's only got an 11 Dex, so upgrading to banded mail would be a waste of 50 gold...50 gold he could be spend on a potion of cure light wounds in case things get hairy.
"Field Plate" is IMO an unfortunate later-edition name substitution for what was originally just called "Plate Mail" that should be understood to represent "Plate and Mail" that was the historical precursor of High Gothic Full Plate, or a contemporary to such armor, but worn by infantrymen such as "munition armor" of the 16th century. Also called Half-Plate, which makes it a more obvious distinction from Full-Plate.
Okay, thats interesting. So the terminology is completely upside down here.
full plate - this is field plate
field plate - this is plate and mail
half plate - this is also plate and mail
ok, threadjack time. similar situation: padded armour vrs haramki (UC). if your DM allows the asian themed armour there is no realistic reason other than flavor to take padded armour over a haramki (Which is cheaper, has better max dex (no limit) same armour value and better ASF chance. and it's lighter, too.)
and even, even if your arguing that not all DMs will allow the oriental armour then take this one on: Haramki (3gp, 1lb) vrs Silken ceremonial armour (30gp, 4lb) with otherwise the same stat line. i mean, really?
Despite cost being an issue my Wizard went with silken ceremonial armor because it looks like badassed militant wizard robes instead of a belt you win in Smackdown! (tm). My character (the scion of a noble house) went with armor in his families colors embroidered with his heraldry rather than the commoner's armor.
There are several options the asian armors make obsolete
Four mirror armor is chain mail that weighs 5 lbs more but cost 105 gold less.
To be fair, the Chinese had better metallurgy in the form of primitive Bessemer converters, so getting enough high quality steel was less problematic.
I agree that does not necessarily work that way but thats the way it happened.
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When you are done, a suit of splint mail is an AWESOME thing for prisoners.
1) Wizard or sorceror? Huge arcane spell failure and slower movement.
2) Druid? Monk? You just shut them down completely.
3) Melee-type? It's still easier to hit him than in the +1 full plate he was wearing, marginal utility.
4) Rogue? Can't tumble, can't evade, and now moves 20'. Armor check penalty if they do try to sneak away.
5) Cleric? Not proficient anymore, difficulty fighting.
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So, keep that old suit around. That and some rope can do wonders.
When you are done, a suit of splint mail is an AWESOME thing for prisoners.
1) Wizard or sorceror? Huge arcane spell failure and slower movement.
2) Druid? Monk? You just shut them down completely.
3) Melee-type? It's still easier to hit him than in the +1 full plate he was wearing, marginal utility.
4) Rogue? Can't tumble, can't evade, and now moves 20'. Armor check penalty if they do try to sneak away.
5) Cleric? Not proficient anymore, difficulty fighting.
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So, keep that old suit around. That and some rope can do wonders.
You could add some manacles in too, just to be a douche. :P