So I had a potential player approach me the other day telling me that he was going to roll a level 8 Shadow Dancer/Assassin/and something else, thus breaking the game. I know he comes from a mechanic breaking heavy background, apparently.
What do I do about this? From a GMing pre and during game stand point?
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I think any player, outside of playtests, who sets out to "break the game" is probably being a total douchebag. Be prepared to boot him. He sounds like trouble.
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Player: "I'm going to break the game."
Game Master: "No you're not."
Player: "Yes I am."
GM: "You can't play then."
Final Score
GM: 1
Player: 0
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You're the GM. Any cheese that he throws at you, you can throw back at him a thousandfold.
The actual problem comes not from an inability to deal with this player, but doing so while giving the other players a fun game as well while you grind him into dust.
My suggestion: You said he was a potential player. Since he's point-blank told you he wants to disrupt your game...then he doesn't make it past potential.
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If the guy has actually specifically told you that he plans to break the game, then you have two options. Either kill the character during generation, or simply mention to him that if he tries, he will be without a game. Whilst it is good to have a full party to throw things against, its easier to work around 3 characters and still have a decent time, than to have to deal with an idiot who wants to make a Superman. It's not just the game he is wrecking, but the experience of it for everyone.
Adding my vote for disallowing the player.
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Frankly, I wouldn't play with him. Life's too short, and (for me, at least) gaming time is too precious to have to spend dealing with an idiot whose stated goal is to break the game.
If he plays, he's going to make your life difficult, and ruin your other players' experiences.
Azten++
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There's only two real options if you want to have this person in your game and kicking him "is not an option."
1) Destroy his ability to break the game by breaking it harder
Cheat on your die rolls. Houserule on the fly. Disregard the rulebook for "I think that makes more sense," but stick to the rulebook for the most minute things. Make calls based on your split second judgment. Fudge your die rolls even after you've cheated. Give out -2, +2 at the drop of a hat. When there's hardly a system to break, there's just going to either be a lonely powergamer or a person having fun.
2) Destroy his ability to break the game by learning the RAW like a legal textbook
Be prepared to have him cite pages on every rule his character uses. Ask him to step-by-step declare his actions and what they do and where they might be from. Know what his actions will be, and how he will do them, and do not differ from the core. Do not allow him to take anything outside your allowed books. Run dice as they lay, damage as it lays, roll in the open and demand the players do the same. Play the game with "genius" or "chess" rules, where if your action is over you cannot do a take-back unless your character has 20+ Int, your die rolls have not been made, or your hand is still touching the pawn. Meticulously keep track of the time of day, where shadows lay, how they lay and the difference between bright, normal, dim light, and darkness.
Basically, someone coming up to you and saying "ha ha I'm gonna break the game" is a fire alarm. Don't bring a bucket of water. Bring a hose and a hydrant.
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Tell him to get a life and move on. Tools like this are not worth the trouble.
To be slightly fair to him, he meant breaking the game mechanically rather than roll around and player-kill & disrupt the story (...I hope). Apparently such a combination turns every encounter to dust.
To be slightly fair to him, he meant breaking the game mechanically rather than roll around and player-kill & disrupt the story (...I hope). Apparently such a combination turns every encounter to dust.
While I dont know how his stated combination breaks anything (certainly, I can't see any way for it to 'turn every encounter to dust') and this person may be grandiously overstating his own gamebreaking potential, anyone who's determined he's going to break the game mechanically is just as bad as someone who's decided to make trouble in roleplay.
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So I had a potential player approach me the other day telling me that he was going to roll a level 8 Shadow Dancer/Assassin/and something else, thus breaking the game. I know he comes from a mechanic breaking heavy background, apparently.
What do I do about this? From a GMing pre and during game stand point?
Let him play. In areas of bright light, you shut down his hide ability. With nowhere to run and hide, the assassin abilities will be next to useless.
A desert-dwelling dragon can chase him down across the burning sands...
Break my game? Don't get too attached to your character...
Probably going to be using HiPS a lot. Give some peepz true seeing, or some good darkvision. Should counteract what I believe his strategy is.
So I had a potential player approach me the other day telling me that he was going to roll a level 8 Shadow Dancer/Assassin/and something else, thus breaking the game. I know he comes from a mechanic breaking heavy background, apparently.
My response: "Cool, good luck!"
Just make an adventure that has a ton of light elementals. Just make them like a fire elemental but emit daylight at will. I wouldn't even bump up the CR.
Break that.
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Using shadow dancer and Assassin? I laugh at his feeble attempts.
What's he going to do hide in shadows and assassinate people?
After 3 rounds of combat? I'm hoping he has the good sense to at least have a high intelligence score on his character. Hope he has darkvision as well because you can't sneak attack or assassinate someone with cover (like from it being dark)-- you have to be able to target precisely.
Unbreaking maneuver #1 -- Darkfolk in a cave. Deeper Darkness and he can see anything in the supernatural darkness, while they can see just fine.
Probably going to be using HiPS a lot. Give some peepz true seeing, or some good darkvision. Should counteract what I believe his strategy is.
Blindsense, Blindsight, and Scent also work.
As does a decent Fortitude save, or any encounter with more than one significant opponent.
I'm honestly not sure how Shadowdancer/Assasin is supposed to break anything :/
Probably going to be using HiPS a lot. Give some peepz true seeing, or some good darkvision. Should counteract what I believe his strategy is.Blindsense, Blindsight, and Scent also work.
As does a decent Fortitude save, or any encounter with more than one significant opponent.
I'm honestly not sure how Shadowdancer/Assasin is supposed to break anything :/
He'll break just fine -- into small pieces.
2) Destroy his ability to break the game by learning the RAW like a legal textbookBe prepared to have him cite pages on every rule his character uses. Ask him to step-by-step declare his actions and what they do and where they might be from. Know what his actions will be, and how he will do them, and do not differ from the core. Do not allow him to take anything outside your allowed books. Run dice as they lay, damage as it lays, roll in the open and demand the players do the same. Play the game with "genius" or "chess" rules, where if your action is over you cannot do a take-back unless your character has 20+ Int, your die rolls have not been made, or your hand is still touching the pawn. Meticulously keep track of the time of day, where shadows lay, how they lay and the difference between bright, normal, dim light, and darkness.
I'd recommend the totally opposite direction, actually. Rather than using the RAW as a legal text, since a lot of cheese comes from the rules as written, remind the player that the rules are guidelines and play second fiddle to a sense of verisimilitude, common sense, and telling a good story.
I think you should post the full character and make certain it is legal...
many times such a character concept needs to be reviewed.
Here is one problem that is often over-looked
starting a character at level 1 and rising through levels, the skill points and feats have to be viable....at each levelMaking a character at level X
results in an abundance of points and the hand-waving requirements to enter a class..
He's been playing far longer than I have but there was I noticed. His claim is that you can start being an assassin from level 3, not true as you need a stealth of 5, making the earliest at 6?
I can only guess that his intention was to spam death attack.
A Light elemental will be hard to put in since it's Carrion Crown, but I think a lot of things have dark vision. But better yet, reevaluate his build and admission.
So I had a potential player approach me the other day telling me that he was going to roll a level 8 Shadow Dancer/Assassin/and something else, thus breaking the game. I know he comes from a mechanic breaking heavy background, apparently.
What do I do about this? From a GMing pre and during game stand point?
Tell him to grow up!
HOW is he going to do that with shadow dancer and assasin?
I use the modified necros pdf fillable character sheets for the entire group, that way I always have copies of the entire parties character sheets on my mac. When (has only happened once) someone makes a character fully intended to break a system or subsystem of the game, I do the following:
1) A secret cult has zealously guarded the knowledge your players seeks to exploit. They have guarded the 'secret way' for thousands of years, becoming masters of the path along the way.
2) Rename the offending players character, and level the character once or twice.
3) print my new NPC.
4) repeat 2 and 3 up to five times. (generally 1d4+1 is sufficient)
Viola!
An NPC hunting party specifically designed to guard their groups ancient knowledge, motivated SOLEY to kill the offending PC for stumbling upon their highly guarded secrets.
The end.
tell him before the game starts and he's finished his character creation that you don't want munchkins, and that his power level should match with the rest of the group.
Either he's mature enough and accepts, or you'll have to kick him sooner or later.
I have a very mechanic breaking background that I'm not proud of, I know how hard it is not to fall back in old schemes.
I think you should post the full character and make certain it is legal...
many times such a character concept needs to be reviewed.
Here is one problem that is often over-looked
starting a character at level 1 and rising through levels, the skill points and feats have to be viable....at each levelMaking a character at level X
results in an abundance of points and the hand-waving requirements to enter a class..He's been playing far longer than I have but there was I noticed. His claim is that you can start being an assassin from level 3, not true as you need a stealth of 5, making the earliest at 6?
I can only guess that his intention was to spam death attack.
A Light elemental will be hard to put in since it's Carrion Crown, but I think a lot of things have dark vision. But better yet, reevaluate his build and admission.
Well a few things:
1: What the hell is an evil PCs motivation in CC? Can't see any.
2: He can't get to Assassin at 3. He's trying to reinterpret the rules somehow. Assassin requires 5 Ranks in stealth, meaning you cannot in any way get into it before level 6.
3: As everyone else said... why you putting up with this. Give him a hard look and tell him: "If your goal is to break my game you won't be in my game. Want a game? Play the damn game like everyone else."
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I think you just came up with inadvertantly the best solution to this. You're playing carrion crown. @ 8th lvl, you're probably near the end of the third mod. Lots of undead. Simple solution for a Rogue/Assassin/Shadow Dancer. Enforce the old 3.5 rules for sneak attack & crits. Suddenly, a sneak attack heavy character can't break much of squat in a campaign that focuses 70% of the time on undead. Death attacks are likewise useless.
Furthermore, he can still feel like his build is valid against the other 30% or so of non-undead creatures sprinkled around.
I think you just came up with inadvertantly the best solution to this. You're playing carrion crown. @ 8th lvl, you're probably near the end of the third mod. Lots of undead. Simple solution for a Rogue/Assassin/Shadow Dancer. Enforce the old 3.5 rules for sneak attack & crits. Suddenly, a sneak attack heavy character can't break much of squat in a campaign that focuses 70% of the time on undead. Death attacks are likewise useless.
Pointlessly nerfing a non-broken mechanic is not a good solution. If someone is going to be disruptive, the best solution is to not allow them to be disruptive, not to try and 'combat' them by changing the rules.
This isn't something that should be 'fought'... the DM just needs to exercise his godlike powers over the game and remove the problem.
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....Shadow Dancer/Assassin....They're like Drizzt clones and dragon disciples -- has there ever been one made that didn't telegraph "I gonna be a complete pain in your ass!" to the GM?
Once again, ban evil PCs and there's no assassin to worry about.
This.
The player wants to solo a shooter video game, not an RPG.
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"So, player, let me get this straight -- is it that you're concerned your build is too powerful, or are you declaring the intent that you are going to give me or the other players a hard time? Because if it's the latter, you can get out now. Contentious, competitive gameplay is not welcome at my table.
"If you are worried you have a build in which I will not be able to challenge you, then let me worry about that.
"But I don't want to hear a PEEP of complaint the first time you come up against a golem or incorporeal undead. I won't spam the game with them, but don't be surprised if they show up at some point. There are creatures that cannot be affected by your abilities, and those you will not be able to hide from. You will have your chance to shine, but there are times you will not, and the others will shine. That's how it works. If you don't like that, then we're back to the beginning of this conversation."
From a rules point of view there is no way to really break the game. There is no cheese you can pull with this type of build.
Now from story point of view, depending on the game that is being run this type of character could be extremely disruptive. Imagine a Paladin and this character in the same party. That would break thing good.
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He's been playing far longer than I have but there was I noticed. His claim is that you can start being an assassin from level 3, not true as you need a stealth of 5, making the earliest at 6?
I can only guess that his intention was to spam death attack.
Aha, he's thinking in 3.5e rules, where you get 4 ranks at first level!
I suspect his expectations will implode with his rules assumptions.Still, he's willing to disrupt the game, mechanically or otherwise? Boot him, or politely inform him that you won't allow him to disrupt the game, for the sake of the enjoyment of everyone else. Then, if he refuses to cooperate, boot him, for the sake of enjoyment of everyone else.
Pfft! Let him! I don't think you can break the game by mixing those prestige classes, if anything just throw some saves at him and watch him die horribly. Prestige classes get crap saves, take full advantage. Just hold him by the rules, don't let any 3.5 assumptions cloud his character creation.
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RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16
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Aha, he's thinking in 3.5e rules, where you get 4 ranks at first level!
I suspect his expectations will implode with his rules assumptions.
Either that or he's misinterpreting (maybe unintentionally) the +3 class bonus as the same as ranks. If this is the case he's thinking 4 "ranks" at level 1, 5 "ranks" at 2 and voila prestige class available early and he's wrong. If he's wrong about that he may be wrong about a number of other rules he'll try to use at the table. Make sure you know how his powers work too and you'll avoid some of these issues.
i whole-heartedly agree with the sentiment that a gamer who is looking to break the system is probably more trouble than is worth having. however, if your concern is not his attitude but simply mechanics and balance it doesn't sound like his build is anything you really need to worry about.
in those same 4 rounds a bow fighter gets 12 attacks (4 of which will use many shot) and each hit will do, what- d8+10 or more (+1 wpn training, +2 wpn spec, +2 enhancement, +4 deadly aim, +1 point blank; plus any str bonus...). sure there's minuses for using rapid shot and deadly aim, but figuring at least an 18 dex (a safe bet, since a dex belt is in the budget) they'd still be at around +12 (unbuffed) to all but their last attack each round.
if the dancer/ass is targeting someone who might fail that Fort save its either a wiz/sor or rogue. neither is known for its AC (or hp). a good wizard might be up to an 18 or 20 AC, a defensively minded rogue maybe 22 to 24. i dont have time for much math- but assume the archer hits about half the time and does avg damage... that'd be about 116 damage (assuming no crits)- which should be way more than enough to put down a 7th level casty or rogue... plus he can do that damage to clerics and other fighter types who wouldn't likely fail the Death Attack save... plus, none of that is taking haste or other buff spells into account
A ninja is really the improved form of Assassin. HiPS, Invisibility, Death Attack and more. Sure you don't get the tricks to keep people dead, but in combat that's never really an issue.
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What a shock that the guy claiming he'll break the game understands the rules poorly and is already making mistakes in character creation...
Assassin, break the game? LOL.
Constructs, Elementals, Oozes, Undead, Proteans and Swarms all say otherwise.
Rogue and Barbarian NPCs: Uncanny Dodge.
Long ranged combat.
Obscuring Mist is a level 1 spell.
Horn of Fog is a cheap, cheap item.
There's not even a need to tailor the game against such a n00b. But if you feel like it, all you need is for a smart NPC enemy to see what he is, escape, and then make the connections to put together the means to crush this guy. Arch-villans who spy on, and get to know, the PCs are fun.
I want to point out that under the current RAW, HiPS, or Stealth does NOT make your foe lose his DEX bonus, thus it does not give you sneak attack in of itself. Of course, you can use it to maneuver safely to a good flanking spot.
There is a Blog where Paizo is working on changing the rules for this, but it seems to be stalled.
Mind you, banning evil PC’s is also a good choice.
Probably going to be using HiPS a lot. Give some peepz true seeing, or some good darkvision. Should counteract what I believe his strategy is.
True Seeing doesn't work against stealth. HiPS still works if the other people have darkvision, the very first sentence in the entry says that they can hide even when observed.
Tremorsense works. Fortification works okay. Bright light does the trick. Incorporeal undead ruin their day. Scent kinda works. High Perception has a chance of working.
Death attack isn't that hard to deal with. A lot of scenarios do not allow the three round study period necessary to do a Death attack. Even if they do, an 3rd level Assassin has a DC15-16 save against it. That's not that great. Hardly breaking the game. If they have a fort modifier of +0 they still have a 25% chance to not be affected. Death Attack also doesn't work in combat. If they recognize them as an enemy, it doesn't work. They can still sneak attack, but death attack doesn't work. Easy to get past.
So, will the death attack work well? A couple of times to be sure, but it won't be that great.
A fine question for your friend is this. "Why do you want to break the game?"
A lot of people who have done non-cooperative games need to be talked through the point of having a party and working together. They don't understand that the point of the game is not just to singlehandedly destroy every encounter. That is really only fun for them. The point of a cooperative game is to let everyone have their moment.
Will the person learn how to work in a group for the fun of everyone? Maybe, if you address the problem and help them work through it. Can they be unwilling to adjust? Sure, people do this all the time. At that point its okay to say that maybe this isn't the game for them. But to give up before trying to talk it through is not a very good idea, nor is it good to have as a policy.
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I don't agree with all the people saying to kick him out, and especially not the ones recommending to just murder his character. Frankly, either approach is rather childish. All the player did was brag a little about a build he thinks is strong. Being a jerk or disrupting the game for revenge does no good for anybody.
That said, get the build and review (or post) it before play. It is obvious from thinking you can get Assassin at level 3 that he is not actually as rules savvy as he wants to appear. If you get the rules lawyer argument out of the way before the game starts, you can save precious game time and possible bad feelings. Plus, it gives the player the opportunity to try a different character after they figure out that their current "game breaker" doesn't actually work.