memorax - yeah, we're really going to have to agree to disagree. As I understand it, I'm saying "Hey, this guy is interested in this, it's his hobby, he should be allowed to do that." and you're saying, "That's stupid, they shouldn't work that way." I mean, I agree: it's limiting. That's the thing, though - gods are, in some ways, limited. It's in their nature. They're limited by idea, or race, or something else, (that's called their sphere or portfolio) but that also removes limits from them.
For example, Moradin is the god of dwarves. That's... great, Moradin. Good for you. However Jerkiface McGee, i.e. "Talos", as some call him, is all about earthquakes. Talos decides he doesn't like dwarves and wants to earthquake them all to death (I mean, they're all, like, underground and stuff, so it should work). Well, many gods would just have to allow Talos to make earthquakes all over the place, destroying they're chosen people. But because Moradin is actually a god of dwarves, he can step in where his chosen people are concerned. It might not be perfect - he can't challenge Talos on earthquakes, for example, but but he can totally redirect, alter, and control the ultimate fall-out of those earthquakes. Sure destruction will reign and some deaths will occur, and earthquakes will go all over the place. Yet, somehow, the dwarves will find pockets of safety, will survive, and will gain blessings from it. 'Cause while Talos owns earthquakes, Moradin owns dwarves (and, by extension, all that's related to them and what happens to them).
So, yeah, race is a perfectly justifiable thing for a god to choose, just as much as anything else, I'd say. But, as always, your mileage may vary. Which is fine! Enjoy any concept you like!
EDIT: also, I loved the large list of various gods. And remember, the worship of the gods wasn't so much a number of individual worshipers that granted them power, as it was masses of worshipers focusing on them for a particular aspect. As in, it was generally accepted by enough people, over-all, that a particular deity was deity of a particular thing. There didn't need to be churches of a specific size, just a general acknowledgement of importance. That's how Bane got fear, after all.
ANYWAY! :)
Matthew Morris: I love your breakdown of the Chosen's duties!
Halaster was totally a Chosen. He just exploded himself on accident when he tried to do something that, as yet, is ill-defined (I suspect it was attempting to stop the spellplague).
magnuskn! And pretty much everyone here! Have any of you read Bury Elminster Deep, yet?
While I've not read more than the free "preview" on the Nook, something very related to this discussion:
[spoilers=spoilers from the proglogue]Mystra is apparently alive... and a bear, now. ALSO some magic items and her blood. It seems and fells a little strange/suspicious, but Elminster is completely convinced.[/spoiler]
Seriously, that's in the first twenty pages of the book (the prologue). I have no idea how the book ends, but don't mind spoilers if anyone else has read it. Please let me know!
Diffan: I utterly disagree in virtually ever way. I've always found that whole "the gods are too powerful!" argument... well, silly! Yes, I get it: they can do all sorts of stuff, woe betide the poor mortals! But it's been made pretty clear that they can't just go acting all willy-nilly because the other gods'll get upset, and while magic, in a general sense, is controlled by Mystra, divinities can still enact their will against her and her worshipers without spells, spell-casting, or spell-like abilities. A lack of spells would seriously hurt a wizard, but a fighter'd get along just fine. For example, in a battle between Mystra and Helm: HELM WON. She could shut down magic, but she couldn't shut down all the supernatural (or extraordinary, for that mater). I genuinely liked Mystra - I'm entirely with John Kretzer on this one! I pretty much go along with most of that post, though, personally, I'm not sure that it's "BS" for Mystra to cut off divine spellcasters because they were actually casting spells (some of which were identical to arcanists). But that's just me. In 4E... well, it'd be harder to justify, since they aren't using spells (and would also have to extend to primal and psionic elements once again, as well, like in 3.X).
Diffan: I utterly disagree in virtually every way. I've always found that whole "the gods are too powerful!" argument... well, silly! Yes, I get it: they can do all sorts of stuff, woe betide the poor mortals! But it's been made pretty clear that they can't just go acting all willy-nilly because the other gods'll get upset, and while magic, in a general sense, is controlled by Mystra, divinities can still enact their will against her and her worshipers without spells, spell-casting, or spell-like abilities. A lack of spells would seriously hurt a wizard, but a fighter'd get along just fine. For example, in a battle between Mystra and Helm: HELM WON. She could shut down magic, but she couldn't shut down all the supernatural (or extraordinary, for that mater). I genuinely liked Mystra - I'm entirely with John Kretzer on this one! I pretty much go along with most of that post, though, personally, I'm not sure that it's "BS" for Mystra to cut off divine spellcasters because they were actually casting spells (some of which were identical to arcanists). But that's just me. In 4E... well, it'd be harder to justify, since they aren't using spells (and would also have to extend to primal and psionic elements once again, as well, like in 3.X).
What I find funny is that both of our views are vastly different yet achieve the same outcome. You love gods with Realms-shattering power that can cause earthquakes, plagues, storms, and steal people's magic YET never do becuase the ramifications would be too great so they instead use more indirect means (ie. spellcasters, clergy, and other mortals).
I see the same thing and say, if they're practically never going to use their cosmic power to these effects, why bother with them in the first place? If mystra could take away all Red Wizards spells but chooses not to, then why even bother in the first place? She'll never do it due to the consequences. Or is it the intent that she could but chooses not a driving "in the back of your mind" sort of thing? Regardless, I'd like to give less reasons for any potential or bad DM canon proof to say "No, your using your wizardly magic for nasty-bad purposes, Mystra revokes you". Of coruse it's a bad DM decision, but it's backed by rules and canon. No thanks.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Diffan,
IMNSHO, I think the two things to remember are that a) Midnight was mortal, not all the gods were, and b) she's still young and learning 'off panel'.
I'd guess that a conversation about the red wizards would have gone like this.
Midnight/Mystra: I'm going to shut down Thay's magic.
Azmuth: Why?
M: Because they're EVIL!
A: *sighs* I know you're new at this, but you're the goddess of magic now, not the goddess of punishing people you didn't like when you were mortal. Are they a threat to the Weave?
M: Well, no...
A: Are they spreading magic?
M: Evil magic!
A: Leave aside good and evil. That's for Torm and Cyric to decide.
M: *Mutters*
A: Are they spreading magic?
M: Yes.
A: And as the result of the actions you personally don't like, are they causing new spells to be invented?
M *sighs in frustration* Yes.
A: Then you can't punish them.
M: Fine!
Don't forget, Talos (not Grummish, damnit!) was making inroads in stealing evocation because she wasn't focusing on all magic.
Even the 'veteran' gods make mistakes. I mean look at Karsus.
Mystril: *bebopping along, protecting the weave, enjoying new magic being created* That Karsus guy has potentital.
Karus: *Casts epic spell, blows up the weave.*
Mystra: Oh crap! Let's not do THAT again.
Edit: Also there's the 'big gods break the world' aspect. If Mystra denies Talos magic, then Talos sends thunderstorms to level Shadowdale, which gets Chauntena mad so his people don't get crops, then Waukeen's commerse gets disrupted.... It's no fun being a god without worshipers.
Actually, guys, in Elminster's Daughter Mystra clearly spells out one of the driving reasons she doesn't: they're practitioners of magic, they spread magic across the world, and she is magic and is concerned with magical practice and its spread. Specifically, she likes their innovations and continued practice of magic in general, as well as having been a great lover of the "Thaymart" idea (even requiring her Chosen to allow it and help it along every once in a while) in order to spread magic to the masses more cheaply. I mean, she tells two of her chosen this (Elminster and the Symbul) rather explicitly.
Diffan, it's not that they never do. Point-in-fact they occasionally do so, and can do so because they're . That word is kind of important. They are the absolute power over their area of control. But they don't do so regularly or often because then the problems come up. You're way basically says, "Oh well, no one can step in ever, too bad." whereas mine says, "Well, yes, they could, if the need is great and the risks/rewards worth it."
One of those empowers GMs to do things. One of them doesn't.
I think it's similar argument to why people don't like high level NPCs - what is there for others to do with such high levels running around?
Um: everything. Those people can only do so much with so many of their enemies all around them, and so many people doing what they don't like (and also with less scruples, in most cases, than they), which means there's plenty of wiggle-room. The high-levels take care of a few high-level things (which, given the infinite nature of the planes, there's plenty to go around). Mostly they're there for running in the background, but great tools to use when a GM needs 'em.
Plus, I mean, it makes sense that even if deities are able to be overcome it's not just "epic monster" easy, but rather they have special authority by being deities. Otherwise they're just epic monsters that like something a lot. That's kind of lame.
That right there is empowering new, nifty stories. The other way is backwards - it hinders and squelches the ability of GMs to do things.
THAT SAID: I'm not saying your way of looking at things "wrong" but rather, from my point of view, its more a hindrance and weakness than strength for story telling. As in: feel free to play the game or look at it however you like, I'm not attempting to cast judgement on your play style in general, but rather explain how I, personally feel about the topics at hand, and clarify why I like mine better.
As always, your mileage may vary. And that's fine. :)
Diffan, it's not that they never do. Point-in-fact they occasionally do so, and can do so because they're gods. That word is kind of important. They are the absolute power over their area of control. But they don't do so regularly or often because then the problems come up. You're way basically says, "Oh well, no one can step in ever, too bad." whereas mine says, "Well, yes, they could, if the need is great and the risks/rewards worth it."
One of those empowers GMs to do things. One of them doesn't.
I just don't like my Gods that involved. That was my biggest gripe about older novels of the Realms, the Gods had their hands literally in everything it seemed. I always saw the Weave as a dampening field, which allows magic to function pretty well, yet limiting the upper spells so that they don't work horrible magics across the globe. Mystra maintains that weave (still does in my 4E games). The Weave (IMO) should be an almost intangible thing, something that bolsters spellcasters to find ways in making it work for them. Wizrds scribe their spells onto their mind's wall, sorcerers draw more "raw" energy from the Weave and infuse it with their mind/body/soul and Swordmages draw from a little of both, learning rudimentary magic while honing their sensibilities to feel the flow of magic and such. And Mystra sees that any problems that arise with the Weave are taken care of. But he doesn't have the power to shatter the Weave or cut strings from it because that damage can't often be repaired. So she sends out her clergy to do her bidding or spends ideas of magics to up-and-coming spellcasters.
THAT SAID: I'm not saying your way of looking at things "wrong" but rather, from my point of view, its more a hindrance and weakness than strength for story telling. As in: feel free to play the game or look at it however you like, I'm not attempting to cast judgement on your play style in general, but rather explain how I, personally feel about the topics at hand, and clarify why I like mine better.As always, your mileage may vary. And that's fine. :)
Which is fine, people don't agree on everything (it'd be boring otherwise) and I respect your view. And really, I don't think I'd ever come across a DM that would cut someone's magical abilities just because Mystra has that power, I just find it irksome that it's possible via the rules of the game.
Word up! We just have very different play styles. (Which is cool!)
I like that kind of ability in my games, but your concept is kind of neat, too. I might have to borrow aspects of it at some point. :)
(Also, I can totally see someone feeling the exact opposite about the things I describe as "enabling" - I just disagree!)
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Hey all, hate to be a bit of a necromancer my first post here, but this seemed like the least fossilized thread to post in after a cursory search on the subject.
Basically here to say I loved the Forgotten Realms, and despise how it was taken, in many respects I spent my childhood in Faerun, reading the novels which I adored, wasting most of my time in Neverwinter, Waterdeep, Amn and Baldur's Gate, and designing countless characters for game after game.
And well when I saw the suggestion here earlier in the thread, the idea occurred to me, there is a way to save the realms in such a way as to alienate no one.
The idea being that when Cyric attacked Mystra in Dewomerheart, the realms split, into Toril as experienced by mortals, a world which found itself adrift on the so called Astral Sea, and an alternative Prime Material Plane.
And the Weave itself, which Midnight, mortally wounded by Cyric's treachery, managed to mold the realms from, creating an exact copy of the realms at the moment of Cyric's attack, as well as giving her enough time to send her power to Alassra Silverhand, better known as the Simbul, robbing Cyric of his victory, leaving the Weave intact in the traditional D&D reality, and the original Toril, now floating around in the 4th edition cosmology with the weave violently ripped from it, causing not only the spellplague, but the drastic reordering of the heavens from it being shunted into a parallel Prime Material Plane.
Pretty sure I'll get lambasted for even posting this, but either way, putting it somewhere made me feel a bit better about the whole situation, which up until now had just ignored, feeling my frustrations were far better being ignored than confronted.
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Playing in the old timeline doesn't really cut it, because you know that just a few years down the line everything your characters strived for will be destroyed and meaningless.
Most home campaigns spiral away from the canon, anyway, so why not have YOUR Forgotten Realms never have a Spellplague?
That's exactly why Paizo pretty much has Golarion in a "frozen" state. Because they realize that if they do advance it's storyline, it will probably flat-out contradict the home campaigns of quite a few GMs.
Let's not forget, the "official setting" of third edition was Greyhawk. Most "named magic spells" were still from Greyhawk Wizards.
Maybe it was the "official setting" but that damn sure didn't show through in any actual support for the setting. Forgotten Realms and Ebberon got WAY more love in 3E than Greyhawk ever did.
As for spellcasters being made more powerful than melee, uh, pardon me? How was that different in second edition? Yeah, low-level spellcasters were made more durable over time in third edition, but as soon as a second edition Wizard reached fifth level, he still was able to cast Fireball and Fly and Haste and so completely outclass melee.
I think that for me, the biggest problem wasn't that the spellcasters became more powerful offensively, but that all their weaknesses were marginalized away to the point of non-existence. A 20th level wizard who had completely expended his last spell only needed an hour to study and he was full up again...compare this to the literal DAYS needed of study in 2E. A wizard can take an axe to the face if he's got enough ranks in Concentration...compare that to a wizard losiong his spell because a dart grazed him for 1 point of damage.
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Hey all, hate to be a bit of a necromancer my first post here, but this seemed like the least fossilized thread to post in after a cursory search on the subject.
Basically here to say I loved the Forgotten Realms, and despise how it was taken, in many respects I spent my childhood in Faerun, reading the novels which I adored, wasting most of my time in Neverwinter, Waterdeep, Amn and Baldur's Gate, and designing countless characters for game after game.
And well when I saw the suggestion here earlier in the thread, the idea occurred to me, there is a way to save the realms in such a way as to alienate no one.
The idea being that when Cyric attacked Mystra in Dewomerheart, the realms split, into Toril as experienced by mortals, a world which found itself adrift on the so called Astral Sea, and an alternative Prime Material Plane.
And the Weave itself, which Midnight, mortally wounded by Cyric's treachery, managed to mold the realms from, creating an exact copy of the realms at the moment of Cyric's attack, as well as giving her enough time to send her power to Alassra Silverhand, better known as the Simbul, robbing Cyric of his victory, leaving the Weave intact in the traditional D&D reality, and the original Toril, now floating around in the 4th edition cosmology with the weave violently ripped from it, causing not only the spellplague, but the drastic reordering of the heavens from it being shunted into a parallel Prime Material Plane.
Pretty sure I'll get lambasted for even posting this, but either way, putting it somewhere made me feel a bit better about the whole situation, which up until now had just ignored, feeling my frustrations were far better being ignored than confronted.
I'm not going to lambaste you. I'm going to hope you're Ed Greenwood posting under a sock puppet. I think this is brilliant.
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Well, you all should be happy. Ed Greenwood is going to be writing the 5E version of Forgettable- err, Forgotten realms.
Which means there's going to be even more Elmunchkin than ever before. And more crap like this:
“At long-ago GenCons I often ran Realms play sessions in which PCs were sent with an urgent message to Alustriel [a stranger to them by all but reputation] through a secret portal that admitted them to the Palace but removed all metal -- weapons and, er, BELT BUCKLES -- and all enchanted materials [items and garments vanished, spells operating on the bodies of the PCs just melted away] in doing so. Stumbling over their own falling clothing but under imperative, overriding orders to get to Alustriel right away (and bearing a pass that would let them do so), the racing PCs were directed to a certain chamber, and burst into it to discover that it was taken up by a vast, shallow bath filled with warm rosewater and naked people making love. SOMEwhere in all of that sliding flesh was Alustriel. Their mission: find her."
I mean, CREEEEEEPY.
If it's so forgettable, why did you remember to post in here?
Because it sounds better honestly, than "Generic Realms". HOnestly, I brought it up, because bringing Greenwood back to set everything back the way it was is just another example of how creatively bankrupt D&D Next is.
If it's so forgettable, why did you remember to post in here?Because it sounds better honestly, than "Generic Realms". HOnestly, I brought it up, because bringing Greenwood back to set everything back the way it was is just another example of how creatively bankrupt D&D Next is.
Ed never left the Realms, he just wasn't the main person making the decisions when 4E came about. Additionally, I don't think Ed is going to make further drastic changes to the Realms at this point. But I'm biased as a fan of 4E and 90% of the changes to the Realms.
@ArianDynas: I like your idea in a homebrew campaign, but probably not in the actual published "Official" form. The idea of an Alternate universe has a lot of problems right off the bat such as "Which version do you support with products?" "Which version is RAS going to write for?" "For that matter, who's going to write Prime-Realms material and Alternate-Realms material and can there be cross-overs?" "How do you disguinish between Prime-Realms and Alternate-Realms?" "Additionally, what version (pre- or post-Spellplague) is considered the Prime-Realms?" "IF you only have enough budget to create one Realms sourcebook, does it go to the Prime or Alternate-Realms?"
These questions are just the mere beginning of what will amount to an even larger division of Realms fans than what currenlty exists. What I feel they should do is NOT have a "start date", NOT advance the timeline furhter". Not put a ton of emphasis on the Spellplague or the changes to Abeir-Toril's geography. And NOT render other people's work like they did with 4E. Two wrongs don't make it right, it just makes for a stronger Wrong.
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I have to say, even though I've never particularly liked the Realms (it was all too high magic for me) I have always found Ed Greenwood's knack of bringing sexuality into his writings on the Realms quite endearing. Say what you will about the guy, but some of the stuff he's written, while occasionally veering into the creepy male fantasy side, is actually somewhat inspired in combining human sexuality with the implications of a world filled with powerful magic.
With that said, I don't really care one way or another what they do with the Realms, because I'll either be running homebrew or Eberron. Or any other setting that isn't Forgotten Realms.
The only thing that can fix the Forgotten Realms at this point is to use the Fountain of Youth on the Elminster, have him travel back in time, and stop the Spellplague from ever happening. Oh, and he teams up with Drizzt Do'Urden and Erevis Cale along the way. Spoilers! :)
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It would be really easy to say that the Spellplague fractured reality and created two versions of Toril (one in which Halaster prevented the disaster, and the other being the published 4e setting).
If 5e does indeed publish support for all eras, then groups could continue gaming as if nothing happened. Heck, you could even undo the Time of Troubles!
I liked the idea of the Spellplague, but in the end, it was implemented so poorly that it came off as being a bit too random and arbitrary in the actual effect it had on the world and the people who lived there. I understand why they didn't deep six places like Waterdeep and other places that they had a lot of background material, but the sheer amount of cherry picking they did when deciding what to keep and what to destroy just ended up not making sense at all. Some areas had entire continents dropped on them while others, including many that logically would have been the most effected by a disruption of magic on this scale, remained virtually untouched. That randomness, coupled with extremely poor explanations of how such a destructive and chaotic force could be so selective, along with basically no real support it for the first few years of 4E was a big reason that 4E failed to gather the level of support that its predecessors had been able to get; having no setting to ground the rules in really did hurt them. Whatever they do with FR, or any other setting, in 5E, I hope they learned from their mistakes from 4E, or it's going to get very, very ugly.
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I liked the idea of the Spellplague, but in the end, it was implemented so poorly that it came off as being a bit too random and arbitrary in the actual effect it had on the world and the people who lived there. I understand why they didn't deep six places like Waterdeep and other places that they had a lot of background material, but the sheer amount of cherry picking they did when deciding what to keep and what to destroy just ended up not making sense at all. Some areas had entire continents dropped on them while others, including many that logically would have been the most effected by a disruption of magic on this scale, remained virtually untouched. That randomness, coupled with extremely poor explanations of how such a destructive and chaotic force could be so selective, along with basically no real support it for the first few years of 4E was a big reason that 4E failed to gather the level of support that its predecessors had been able to get; having no setting to ground the rules in really did hurt them. Whatever they do with FR, or any other setting, in 5E, I hope they learned from their mistakes from 4E, or it's going to get very, very ugly.
I think it was pretty obvious what they were doing and why - they got rid of "boring" places where nothing much happened, where there was little material anyway, or which where just pointlessly derivative (like the Egypt-y place). I do agree that WotC failure to properly support it (along with their other settings in 4e) is a significant factor. Dungeon and Dragon are not sufficient in and of themselves, even if they are a lot better than perhaps they are generally given credit for.
I think it was pretty obvious what they were doing and why - they got rid of "boring" places where nothing much happened, where there was little material anyway, or which where just pointlessly derivative (like the Egypt-y place).
Strictly from an outside looking in perspective, yes, the changes they made make sense. The problem is that they really didn't do a very good translating that to making sense within the world itself. As I recall reading in one of the very early comments, other world changing events that happened before this were at least presented in a way that tied them in with the world and it's history. The Spellplague was clearly slapped on with little regard to how to make it feel like anything other than a very poor attempt to setup the world for the 4E rules. It's not just the places, either; it's a problem seen with the NPCs as well. Elminster, I can understand, but there is absolutely no reason in world for Drizz't to have survived; I don't care what excuse they came up with to justify it. He's not a bad character within his original story, but he's nowhere near the first choice of who I would have saved; he always came across as more of a caricature than a character to me.
I liked the idea of the Spellplague, but in the end, it was implemented so poorly that it came off as being a bit too random and arbitrary in the actual effect it had on the world and the people who lived there. I understand why they didn't deep six places like Waterdeep and other places that they had a lot of background material, but the sheer amount of cherry picking they did when deciding what to keep and what to destroy just ended up not making sense at all. Some areas had entire continents dropped on them while others, including many that logically would have been the most effected by a disruption of magic on this scale, remained virtually untouched. That randomness, coupled with extremely poor explanations of how such a destructive and chaotic force could be so selective, along with basically no real support it for the first few years of 4E was a big reason that 4E failed to gather the level of support that its predecessors had been able to get; having no setting to ground the rules in really did hurt them. Whatever they do with FR, or any other setting, in 5E, I hope they learned from their mistakes from 4E, or it's going to get very, very ugly.
I agree as well, and it isn't just the setting either. For each thing I like about 4th edition, there is something that off-sets my enjoyment, like how every class must have a cheesy one-liner.
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I think it was pretty obvious what they were doing and why - they got rid of "boring" places where nothing much happened, where there was little material anyway, or which where just pointlessly derivative (like the Egypt-y place).Strictly from an outside looking in perspective, yes, the changes they made make sense. The problem is that they really didn't do a very good translating that to making sense within the world itself. As I recall reading in one of the very early comments, other world changing events that happened before this were at least presented in a way that tied them in with the world and it's history. The Spellplague was clearly slapped on with little regard to how to make it feel like anything other than a very poor attempt to setup the world for the 4E rules. It's not just the places, either; it's a problem seen with the NPCs as well. Elminster, I can understand, but there is absolutely no reason in world for Drizz't to have survived; I don't care what excuse they came up with to justify it. He's not a bad character within his original story, but he's nowhere near the first choice of who I would have saved; he always came across as more of a caricature than a character to me.
Well, on the specifics of Drizzt, he wasn't an arcane caster at all and so shouldn't have been affected much as far as I can see. I honestly don't see the changes either as "setting up for 4e" - I think that was a bit of cover for getting rid of stuff the developers and designers didn't like. I think trying the second guess a magical effect like this is slightly meta-gamey - I think it's pretty obvious it is intended for narrative effect to achieve some wholesale changes without having to get too detailed about it, not to be a clear and logical thing you can predict logically. To a certain degree I can understand the ire of people who were wedded to the earlier versions but from my standpoint I'm quite relaxed about the changes. Trying to think too hard about why the spellplague might have affected some locales or individuals and not others is backward-looking and I'm much more interested at looking at how I can use the material to interest my players in a campaign on a forward-looking basis.
Well, on the specifics of Drizzt, he wasn't an arcane caster at all and so shouldn't have been affected much as far as I can see. I honestly don't see the changes either as "setting up for 4e" - I think that was a bit of cover for getting rid of stuff the developers and designers didn't like. I think trying the second guess a magical effect like this is slightly meta-gamey - I think it's pretty obvious it is intended for narrative effect to achieve some wholesale changes without having to get too detailed about it, not to be a clear and logical thing you can predict logically. To a certain degree I can understand the ire of people who were wedded to the earlier versions but from my standpoint I'm quite relaxed about the changes. Trying to think too hard about why the spellplague might have affected some locales or individuals and not others is backward-looking and I'm much more interested at looking at how I can use the material to interest my players in a campaign on a forward-looking basis.
Drizz't also should at the very least be an old man beyond adventuring, if he's still alive at all; 100 years will do that, even to an elf in his prime. Overall, the changes might not have been so ill-received if it didn't highlight the problems a lot of people had with the overall release, but the overall response I got from people who really knew the realms was that it just felt more arbitrary and slapped on than earlier changes.
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Oh, it was arbitrary, based on the preferences of the designers. So I can see how it could feel that way to anyone with a deep knowledge of the setting (which I don't have). As for Drizzt, he was actually pretty young as elves go, if I recall, in the books set before the Spellplague - he left Menzobarranzen (sp?) as a relative youth, so I don't think it's out of all expectation for him to be around and kicking after a hundred years. (So long as the Bouldershoulder brothers are dead, I'm cool with it.)
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Oh, it was arbitrary, based on the preferences of the designers. So I can see how it could feel that way to anyone with a deep knowledge of the setting (which I don't have). As for Drizzt, he was actually pretty young as elves go, if I recall, in the books set before the Spellplague - he left Menzobarranzen (sp?) as a relative youth, so I don't think it's out of all expectation for him to be around and kicking after a hundred years. (So long as the Bouldershoulder brothers are dead, I'm cool with it.)
This is true. Drizzt isn't even 200 yet even AFTER the 100 year jump. He was kicking it in the Underdark as an exile in his ACTUAL twenties and on the surface not too long after that.
Salvatore has always written his elves that way where you can't tell if they're 20 or 200. I've always played it that way too. You hit 20 something and you just stop aging for a LONG time.
This is true. Drizzt isn't even 200 yet even AFTER the 100 year jump. He was kicking it in the Underdark as an exile in his ACTUAL twenties and on the surface not too long after that.
Salvatore has always written his elves that way where you can't tell if they're 20 or 200. I've always played it that way too. You hit 20 something and you just stop aging for a LONG time.
If that's the case, why didn't they just let him age naturally instead of throwing in some time warp for the duration of the time jump? It would have saved them at least one forced plot point while still being able to keep their cash cow.
Agreed. Espically after the Time of Troubles, where Gods power was often a direct reflection of their worship. It only makes sense for Gods to obtain as many followers as possible, and thats likely to breach different races as well. Espically something as broad a "Storms and Destruction".I don't see why that would be a problem really. It makes sense imo and I never liked the whole "I'm a good of orcs so only orcs can worship me" type of logic. In one of my FR games the group I was running the game for converted a tribe of hobgoblins to worship Tempus. They are gods why should they be limited by race.
It was actually reveiled that Talos was actually Gruumsh, though I doubt many Talosians believe that. It was a way for Gruumsh to obtain more followers from races outside of Orcs. The same way Sehanine Moonbow is really another aspect of Selûne. A moon goddess appearing to multiple races in their own preceived form will likely be given different names. Those different aspects then grow/manifest into different portfolios and beliefs. Not really that unheard of even in Real World mythology. Heck, Lathander has been Amaunator for a long time and there is possibly a "thrid face of Dusk" too.
It can also be theorized that since those worshipers were worshipping Talos instead of Gruumsh (even though it was Gruumsh) their faith could have spawned that aspect. In essence the aspect being worshipped actually becomes a Deity reducing Gruumsh's power.
If it's so forgettable, why did you remember to post in here?Because it sounds better honestly, than "Generic Realms". HOnestly, I brought it up, because bringing Greenwood back to set everything back the way it was is just another example of how creatively bankrupt D&D Next is.
Quite the contrary. It shows just how good D&D NEXT could be. I am quite happy with the playtest, and I am greatly looking forward to purchasing support for the Forgotten Realms label once again.
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If that's the case, why didn't they just let him age naturally instead of throwing in some time warp for the duration of the time jump? It would have saved them at least one forced plot point while still being able to keep their cash cow.This is true. Drizzt isn't even 200 yet even AFTER the 100 year jump. He was kicking it in the Underdark as an exile in his ACTUAL twenties and on the surface not too long after that.
Salvatore has always written his elves that way where you can't tell if they're 20 or 200. I've always played it that way too. You hit 20 something and you just stop aging for a LONG time.
I think that Salvatore is following 2e and 3e canon - elves grow up roughly the same speed as humans, and then don't age for, well, ages. It's not out of keeping with the elf source books from 2e and 3e.
I think that Salvatore is following 2e and 3e canon - elves grow up roughly the same speed as humans, and then don't age for, well, ages. It's not out of keeping with the elf source books from 2e and 3e.If that's the case, why didn't they just let him age naturally instead of throwing in some time warp for the duration of the time jump? It would have saved them at least one forced plot point while still being able to keep their cash cow.This is true. Drizzt isn't even 200 yet even AFTER the 100 year jump. He was kicking it in the Underdark as an exile in his ACTUAL twenties and on the surface not too long after that.
Salvatore has always written his elves that way where you can't tell if they're 20 or 200. I've always played it that way too. You hit 20 something and you just stop aging for a LONG time.
Still, my point is if that is the case, why did they need to come up with some fancy plot device instead of simply letting him live out the time in between normally? They could have just as easily found stories to tell about him, and it would have been a lot less forced. In a way, this typifies the overall reaction I've seen to FR and 4E in general to an extent. WoTC tended to ignore the simple solutions, and carried their chosen methods far beyond what was really necessary.
If that's the case, why didn't they just let him age naturally instead of throwing in some time warp for the duration of the time jump?
Doesn't really matter, does it? Most FR novels are very light on character development and personality, and focus on action and battle scenes. So why burden the hero with growing older, internal change, .. ?
And that's ok, I think the target audience doesn't really care. In german, there's a nice word for books like the FR or PF novels: "Trivialliteratur". The books sell quite well, so they seem to fulfill the requirements as far as their fans are concerned.
As somebody who hasn't really followed the 4e Realms, what time warp did they do with Drizzt?
The Realms were best before Kelemvor and the rest messed things up...
If that's the case, why didn't they just let him age naturally instead of throwing in some time warp for the duration of the time jump?Doesn't really matter, does it? Most FR novels are very light on character development and personality, and focus on action and battle scenes. So why burden the hero with growing older, internal change, .. ?
And that's ok, I think the target audience doesn't really care. In german, there's a nice word for books like the FR or PF novels: "Trivialliteratur". The books sell quite well, so they seem to fulfill the requirements as far as their fans are concerned.
The fans of the novels probably don't care, but the fans who love to play in the world do, and it's a lot of little things that could have been avoided that seemed to really upset the fans I talked with, not any one big thing. Having Drizz't simply pass through time normally like everyone else if they wanted to play the "elves don't age" game would been a lot simpler than the contrived idea that he fell into a time bubble of some kind for the duration of the 100 years. By itself it may not be that big of a deal, but as one of many small but potentially irritating adjustments that weren't really needed, it didn't help any, either.
The fans of the novels probably don't care, but the fans who love to play in the world do, and it's a lot of little things that could have been avoided that seemed to really upset the fans I talked with, not any one big thing. Having Drizz't simply pass through time normally like everyone else if they wanted to play the "elves don't age" game would been a lot simpler than the contrived idea that he fell into a time bubble of some kind for the duration of the 100 years. By itself it may not be that big of a deal, but as one of many small but potentially irritating adjustments that weren't really needed, it didn't help any, either.If that's the case, why didn't they just let him age naturally instead of throwing in some time warp for the duration of the time jump?Doesn't really matter, does it? Most FR novels are very light on character development and personality, and focus on action and battle scenes. So why burden the hero with growing older, internal change, .. ?
And that's ok, I think the target audience doesn't really care. In german, there's a nice word for books like the FR or PF novels: "Trivialliteratur". The books sell quite well, so they seem to fulfill the requirements as far as their fans are concerned.
But drizzt did live through the 100 years normally, as far I know only Mirt the moneylender and ervis cale's son are the only ones that jumped through time
I remember reading or hearing somwhere that one of the big storylines with Drizz't in the new stories was "the elf outside of his time" concept. That would certainly imply some kind of time jump. I could be remembering wrong, as it was a while ago, but I definitely remember that whatever it was they did, it just sounded forced and contrived to me, and it wasn't simply aging naturally.
Looking at the book there is a outliving all his friends plotline, but drizzt has been worrying about that since the 1990s books.
I remember reading or hearing somwhere that one of the big storylines with Drizz't in the new stories was "the elf outside of his time" concept. That would certainly imply some kind of time jump. I could be remembering wrong, as it was a while ago, but I definitely remember that whatever it was they did, it just sounded forced and contrived to me, and it wasn't simply aging naturally.
So you have no idea what actually happened in the story, but you know it's bad?
Hm.
I remember reading or hearing somwhere that one of the big storylines with Drizz't in the new stories was "the elf outside of his time" concept. That would certainly imply some kind of time jump. I could be remembering wrong, as it was a while ago, but I definitely remember that whatever it was they did, it just sounded forced and contrived to me, and it wasn't simply aging naturally.So you have no idea what actually happened in the story, but you know it's bad?
Hm.
More like I heard the details at one time, and had no desire to remember them all. Some things really aren't worth remembering, and if I could forget about Drizz't entirely, I probably would. He's not a bad character to a point, but hardly one worth all the attention he gets.
And I don't care that much for Wolverine, either. Both characters are just a bit one dimensional for my tastes. Neither are bad, but after the first few iterations of the same basic story, it just gets a bit old. I think to a certain extent that is part of what bugs me about the spellplague; the concept is great, but the implementation ended up being a bit flat, where they did precisely as much as they needed to do, and absolutely nothing beyond that. For a major apocalyptic event, it just felt underdeveloped and metagamey.
As somebody who hasn't really followed the 4e Realms, what time warp did they do with Drizzt?
Nothing specifically. When they announced 4E's rendition of the Forgotten Realms, they advanced the timeline 104 years (current date was 1479 DR). This was to help the setting get away from the consisntant requirement for authors and game designers to delve deeply into the Lore of the setting to write practically anything so it's not contradictory AND to show signs of things returning to normal after the event called the Spellplague.
Drizzt, specifically, had to endure some pretty traumatic events that are detailed in the Orc King, Pirate King, and Ghost King novels (or referred to the Transistions Trilogy). These novels bring Drizzt into the new age of Faerûn, one of darker elements in which Drizzt has to put away his old life and forge on with different friends.
Looking at the basic synopsis for those, I can see where kind of where the confusion might of come from in my understanding. Still doesn't make me like Drizz't all that much, but at least it's better than I had been thinking they had done with him. Still don't think he's that great of a character, but clearly enough people disagree with me that WotC doesn't care what I think.
Mystra Lives!
Which one? Give me the original Mystril over the sucessors anytime.
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As for Helm granting his followers spells during the Time of Trouble I don't remember it coming up...but I think he was punish just as well and was cut off from his followers...though I don't know.
During the Time of Troubles, when the gods walked Toril, Helm was entrusted by Lord Ao the task of keeping the other deities from returning to their posts without returning the stolen Tablets of Fate. He guarded the Celestial Stairway and, as such, Helm kept his full power. When the goddess Mystra attempted to pass him without the Tablets on Midsummer, he was capable of first blocking her and after, when she retaliated, destroying her. This action had enormous repercussions for Helm. Whilst it put off any of the other earthbound deities attempting the same action, it also caused the other deities and mortals alike to hold Helm in great contempt.
Unlike the other deities, Helm did not need to be in close proximity of his clerics for their abilities to function. So they still retained their divine spells during the Time of Troubles.
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It can also be theorized that since those worshipers were worshipping Talos instead of Gruumsh (even though it was Gruumsh) their faith could have spawned that aspect. In essence the aspect being worshipped actually becomes a Deity reducing Gruumsh's power.Agreed. Espically after the Time of Troubles, where Gods power was often a direct reflection of their worship. It only makes sense for Gods to obtain as many followers as possible, and thats likely to breach different races as well. Espically something as broad a "Storms and Destruction".I don't see why that would be a problem really. It makes sense imo and I never liked the whole "I'm a good of orcs so only orcs can worship me" type of logic. In one of my FR games the group I was running the game for converted a tribe of hobgoblins to worship Tempus. They are gods why should they be limited by race.
It was actually reveiled that Talos was actually Gruumsh, though I doubt many Talosians believe that. It was a way for Gruumsh to obtain more followers from races outside of Orcs. The same way Sehanine Moonbow is really another aspect of Selûne. A moon goddess appearing to multiple races in their own preceived form will likely be given different names. Those different aspects then grow/manifest into different portfolios and beliefs. Not really that unheard of even in Real World mythology. Heck, Lathander has been Amaunator for a long time and there is possibly a "thrid face of Dusk" too.
That's why a god has to watch out for heresy - if a faction of a faith, or a different-name faith, strays too far from the core faith, maybe that heretical version of a god becomes a god and starts draining away worshipers. Widening a faith is good because it brings in more worshipers, but it's also risky.
It can also be theorized that since those worshipers were worshipping Talos instead of Gruumsh (even though it was Gruumsh) their faith could have spawned that aspect. In essence the aspect being worshipped actually becomes a Deity reducing Gruumsh's power.That's why a god has to watch out for heresy - if a faction of a faith, or a different-name faith, strays too far from the core faith, maybe that heretical version of a god becomes a god and starts draining away worshipers. Widening a faith is good because it brings in more worshipers, but it's also risky.
I like the idea of spawning an Aspect by sheer worship.
Mystra Lives!Which one? Give me the original Mystril over the sucessors anytime.
Might well be all of them. The Mystra I'm reading certainly feels far more chaotic, arrogant, and even slightly cruel compared to the Mystra from other books. Sounds far more like Mystril (though I've never read her in written form - I simply mean she sounds more like I'd imagine her).
Also, wasn't Mystril never a goddess that was worshiped by players? I certainly never recall Netheril as being a playable thing (well... until 4E, but that's different).
Also, for fire-fuel purposes: so, how 'bout that Drowminster*, eh?
* (Elminster is apparently becoming a drow)
Eh, he already was a woman. The guy goes through phases in his life. ^^