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So, got a player arguing his point across that ER should count against environmental damage, as he found himself in Land of the Linnorm Kings, and he happens to have Cold Resistance from being Aasimar.
Now, my problem with that is, that for one, environment damage is untyped, and is not a direct energy attack, which is what Energy Resistance applies against. Just as DR applies against attacks, and not falling damage.
The second problem is that ER5(basic one) makes a person immune to cold environment, as cold enviroment deals 1d6, making you maximally take 1 non-lethal point of damage, which is healed up in an hour at a rate of 1 non-lethal point per class/hit die level.
That makes Cold/Fire/Acid subtype not needed to survive a denizens environment, as ER10 will defend them, without slapping on a vurnability.
It's not a typo either, as both ER and DR specify attacks, where immunity from subtype mentions conditions, effects, and so on.
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I'm not entirely sure how Pathfinder rules deal with cold environs, but I do recall that the 3.5's Frostburn allowed those with cold resistance to be able to comfortably exist within a certain temperature range.
I can sort of understand the player's pov; if the aasimar can withstand cold damage from a spell, why would a 15 degree F wind bother them?
On the other hand, if ER 10 is enough to survive any environmental damage, and most native creature's frost attack, why the need for a fire weakness from fire subtype.
Note, in Advanced Races, +4 to resist environmental effects, same as Endurance, costs exactly the same as ER 5.
Meaning for 1Rp I can be immune to fire/cold/acid environment, and to energy attacks of that type. Vs a +4 to resist freezing my ass off for the same cost.
Look at it this way. Cold penetrates over time. Throwing off a sudden shock of cold is entirely different from freezing to death slowly...the cold seeping in through every pore. You feel fine the first hour maybe, but after that, it starts eating at you. It's debilitating in entirely different ways from direct frost damage.
Keep in mind, that in hot/cold environments, the temperature is not actually what kills you, especially hot. It's the exhaustion suffered from prolonged exposure.
I'm really having trouble finding the proper words to explain to be honest. I'd probably give a +2 situational bonus or something on the save, but the two are not equivalent.
We ended up adopting Sandstorm and Frostburn mechanics to make ER5 count as level 3 protection, but thanks for input.
It depends on how you define Protected since these enviroments affect unprotected creatues however since the spell energy resistance says it only affects damage side effects may still occur.
You might allow him to have his 5 resist but still be frostbitten until the damage (even what he resisted) could be healed if you want a compromise.
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My call is that if you have cold resistance you take no damage from environmental cold.
Rules and reasoning: (see #9 for best argument/short version)
1. An aasimar has cold resistance 5. Bestiary, p. 7. Energy resistance ignores damage up to the listed amount, and energy immunity prevents all damage from that type. Nothing in the definitions appear to limited it to "normal" damage, as opposed to nonlethal damage. Core Rulebook, p. 562-563.
2. Environmental cold requires a save (DC 15 +1 per previous check), or take 1d6 nonlethal damage. Cold (below 40 degrees F) requires a check every hour. Severe cold and exposure (below 0 degrees F) requires a save every ten minutes, or every hour if wearing a cold weather outfit. Core Rulebook, p. 442.
3. A cold weather outfit, costing 8 gp, gives a +5 bonus to the Fortitude check. Core Rulebook, pp. 159 (chart), 161.
4. A DC 15 survival check adds +2 bonus to the Fortitude save if moving, +4 if stationary. Core Rulebook, p. 107. The Endurance feat provides a +4 bonus on the check. Core Rulebook, p. 122.
5. If you take any nonlethal damage from cold exposure or hypothermia, you are fatigued (-2 to Strength and Dex). You can't heal this damage until you are no longer in the cold. Once the nonlethal damage is healed you are no longer fatigued. Core Rulebook, p. 442. (If you take nonlethal damage from both cold and hypothermia you are exhausted, clarified in AP 51, The Hungry Storm, p. 65.)
6. Once out of the cold, you heal one hit point per character level per hour worth of nonlethal damage. Core Rulebook, p. 192.
7. I couldn't find any mundane animals listed with cold resistance, including those listed as living in "cold forests", like the grizzly bear (polar bears use this stat block plus the advanced simple template), or the wolf. Bestiary, pp. 31, 278.
8. Endure Elements is a 1st level spell that lasts 24 hours out of the box. Core Rulebook, p. 277. Resist Energy is a 2nd level spell that gives cold resistance 10 for ten minutes per level. Core Rulebook, p. 334.
9. The module The Witchwar Legacy, which takes place some extremely cold, states regarding the cold: "See page 442 of the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook for further details. A simple endure elements spell will negate these dangers, as will any amount of cold resistance." Note the word "any." The Witchwar Legacy, p. 6. Based on that, you can say RaW that "any" amount of cold resistance trumps environmental cold damage. Its not "core," but it is an official Paizo PF RPG book.
10. In AP 50, Night of Frozen Shadows, and AP 51, The Hungry Storm, I don't see anything to contradict my belief that cold resistance would protect from environmental cold. Core Rulebook, p. 562-563.
11. If you interpret the rule differently, you should apply it also to NCPs. Anything in the cold without at least cold resistance 6, should also be making rolls to avoid temp damage and fatigue.
12. Perhaps a side issue, and I've spent enough time on this overlong answer, but environmental damage from cold is cold. Environmental damage from heat is "fire." I'm not aware of "untyped" damage, though viscious weapons haven't been clarrified yet to my knowledge. Or, the Horizon Walker is absolutely useless as a class. See APG, p. 265-267.
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I know this is Two Years Old. But i think some new people would like some help when searching around for this.
As per Inner Sea Magic Page 43
"Cold Flesh (Ex): At 1st level, a winter witch gains endure
elements as a constant spell-like ability, but only against
cold temperatures. At 4th level, she gains cold resistance
5,making her comfortable in near-freezing temperatures"
Now whether this only pertains to the Winter Witches Class ability or the only reference I know of in any Pathfinder Society legal document regarding the "Does Cold Resist give me Cold Weather resistance?" question.
I'm going with the Former. As there are PLENTY of other Class Abilities that grant a certain level of any Energy Resistance, and does not specify that they naturally confer any level of Environmental "protection". Thusly we can take from this that no other form of Energy Resistance grants an equivalent level of Environmental resistance or immunity. Mind you this would, likely, only specifically pertain to hot and cold environmental effects on Fire and Cold Energy Resistances.
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IIRC energy resistance means you are immune to damage from cold enviroments. I will try to find the rules quote. I think the rules call out fire, but it makes sense to apply it to the others also..
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If the enviroment deals a cold or energy damage as some do in the book then that character may avoid the damage if his resistance is high enough. There is really no such thing as enviromental damage. It is based on an energy type.
So now I need to find the quote saying specially that the damage in a cold area is cold damage. I will be back again.
if you had vulnerability to cold, would it stop endure elements from protecting you from cold weather?
If the enviroment deals a cold or energy damage as some do in the book then that character may avoid the damage if his resistance is high enough. There is really no such thing as enviromental damage. It is based on an energy type .
So now I need to find the quote saying specially that the damage in a cold area is cold damage. I will be back again.
It was defin. that way in 3/3.5. Frostburn and the other terrain books even emphasized it. In PF not sure where to quote but I'd wager energy resist = environment resist just as in 3/3.5.
if you had vulnerability to cold, would it stop endure elements from protecting you from cold weather?
No. The spell would make sure you never felt the cold.
It was defin. that way in 3/3.5. Frostburn and the other terrain books even emphasized it. In PF not sure where to quote but I'd wager energy resist = environment resist just as in 3/3.5.If the enviroment deals a cold or energy damage as some do in the book then that character may avoid the damage if his resistance is high enough. There is really no such thing as enviromental damage. It is based on an energy type .
So now I need to find the quote saying specially that the damage in a cold area is cold damage. I will be back again.
That might be where I remember it from.
I'm not sure anything directly says it. I've only had time to browse the relevant PF sections of the Core books but all I see offhand is under sections like cold weather they mention protection but I don't see anything defining what that encompasses. The resist spells do note they protect against natural sources.
If you asked my opinion, I think it more likely than not the answer (call it 70/30) is yes, it protects. That Winter Witch text implies cold resistance DOES protect. It doesn't say because she's a winter witch, it says because she gained cold resistance 5. She doesn't gain some specially named cold resistance 5, that's the came Cold Resist 5 as far as the rules are concerned as everyone else. That would imply anyone with cold resistance gets it which would adhere to how it's always been in 3.X.
If you asked me to validate that 100% though I'd want more for either side to take a stance. I can see RAW/RAI arguments either way. It's a good FAQ question unless there's other rules in play not mentioned so far here.
Expect table variation. If you need a quasi-official answer now, ask in the PFS forums.
As said above, The Witchwar Legacy states that any cold resistance trumps damage from environmental cold. There was also a quote from one of the dev's that that was the case for fire resist and hot environmental damage. This makes sense since the damage is over time and you take less than 1 single point per round.
Before anyone asks, I don't recall which dev weighed in on this. Don't recall.
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Found it!
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2l7ns&page=612?Ask-James-Jacobs-ALL-your-Qu estions-Here#30575
Question:James,
Can you make a ruling about the effectiveness of cold/fire resistance and evironmental dangers of heat and cold? Does cold/fire resistance negate the dangers of cold/heat? Does it reduce the lethal damage one would take if the fail the associated save? Does one get a bonus to fortitude save for their resistance? Inquiring minds would like to know.
Answer: Damage from cold temperatures is cold damage. Damage from hot temperatures is fire damage.
In the OP's question, though, he mentioned that ER 5 would make one immune to environmental cold. That's not entirely the case.
Unprotected in...
- cold (<40°F): Fort DC15 (+1 per prev check) per hour or take 1d6 nonlethal cold damage.
- severe cold (<0°F): Fort DC 15 (+1 per prev check) per 10 minutes or take 1d6 nonlethal cold damage.
- Extreme cold (<-20°F): 1d6 lethal cold damage (no save) per minute AND fort DC 15 (+1 per prev check) or take 1d4 nonlethal cold damage.
The OP brings up the ability to recover 1 hp of nonlethal damage per hour, however, the environmental damage rules also state:
A character cannot recover from the damage dealt by a cold environment until she gets out of the cold and warms up again.
So even if you resist 5 hp of damage, the occasional roll of a 6 will still start chalking up some damage that cannot be recovered until the victim warms up.
This roll of 6 becomes far more common at more extreme temperatures.
A character cannot recover from the damage dealt by a cold environment until she gets out of the cold and warms up again.
In a way, it's nearly identical to non-lethal damage from thirst and starvation.
None of it will heal (even magically) until you get some food and water inside.
If you think extreme temperature damage is not resisted by fire and cold resistance, you also end up with the absurd situations of white dragons freezing to death and fire elementals passing out from heat exhaustion.
Until you notice those pesky little cold/fire subtypes makes them *immune* to their respective element, which usually trumps resistance.
Now the vulnerability to the opposed element that they also gain makes for interesting developments.
A white dragon *can* pass out from heat exhaustion. A fire elemental *can* freeze to death. I know it seems counter-intuitive, but the extreme cold may be sapping its heat faster than the fire elemental can produce it. So I'm picturing it slowly shrinking, like a snowman under the sun.
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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If you think extreme temperature damage is not resisted by fire and cold resistance, you also end up with the absurd situations of white dragons freezing to death and fire elementals passing out from heat exhaustion.Until you notice those pesky little cold/fire subtypes makes them *immune* to their respective element, which usually trumps resistance.
If environmental damage is untyped, immunity doesn't do you any more good than resistance does.
Not reading through the whole thread, just enough to get the general jist of what's going on because I believe I have the answer from an authority.
Here
James,
Can you make a ruling about the effectiveness of cold/fire resistance and evironmental dangers of heat and cold? Does cold/fire resistance negate the dangers of cold/heat? Does it reduce the lethal damage one would take if the fail the associated save? Does one get a bonus to fortitude save for their resistance? Inquiring minds would like to know.
Damage from cold temperatures is cold damage. Damage from hot temperatures is fire damage.
(Sits back and waits for someone to run with this post and cause a big scene over in the rules forums.)
So yes, damage from hot or cold environments is non-lethal energy damage of the appropriate tyep. Energy resistance protects you from it. If you energy resistance is high enough to negate all possible damage, you are immune to the environmental effects.
See what graystone did? *grins*
Ruyan.
See what graystone did? *grins*
Ruyan.
Yes, and I was the one who originally asked JJ the question and got a response. And as I said, I didn't read the whole thread. Only enough to know that quote was needed to settle this question which crops up every 6 months or so.
As others pointed, the 1d6 cold damage is over an hour, not every round.
The energy resistance is applied against every source of cold damage.
So if we had to spread it between an hour, would be 1d6/600 rounds then apply the energy resistance against each of them.
I dont believe in rolling 1d6 per hour then apply 5 cold resist and cause damage on a roll of 6. It's not like the character was walking in the cold for 59 minutes, and suddenly a cold wind caught him.
I would say that even 1 point of cold resistance would keep you safe from enviromental damage (in this case). But there are other dangers to consider in a cold enviroment.
Keep in mind that Endure Elements is a lv1 spell (but gives no actual resist energy score), while Resist Energy is a lv2 spell (which gives 10 resist).
admittedly, the 'cold' level is not all that cold. 0°F - 39°F. The real problem is that 'clothes - cold weather', which in reality would likely keep you safe from that temperature range indefinitely, as long as you still have food and water, would still result in you dying, as all it does is provide a boost to your fortitude save. With the incrementing nature of the DC, though, eventually you will be taking damage.