D&D 5th Edition


4th Edition

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Liberty's Edge

Scott Betts wrote:
ciretose wrote:
Paizo intentionally made the edition backward compatible, and was putting out supplementary material for 3.5 as a baseline. They basically created the rule system to be able to continue the core business, not the other way around.
I understand that to be the case. It will be interesting to see if it pans out, or if they are convinced to release a new edition at some point.

I am sure they will release a new edition at some point. But I am equally sure that the changes will be more along the lines of what they did with the Beginner Box. Changes to the ruleset to help game play that is largely compatible with the older editions.

This is the model Chaosium has followed for 30 years now. Chuck is correct that there have been 6 editions of Call of Cthulhu. However each "Edition" isn't a rewrite as much as a revision, in the same way that the new "Edition" of Websters Dictionary is still in English and so having an old "Edition" doesn't make all the supplementary material obsolete.


Elton wrote:

Actually, it's a 1 minute turn that consisted of 10 rounds. Each round was 6 seconds long. :)

d20/3E combat round. 2E was one minute round, 10 round/minute turn.


Gendo wrote:
Elton wrote:

Actually, it's a 1 minute turn that consisted of 10 rounds. Each round was 6 seconds long. :)

d20/3E combat round. 2E was one minute round, 10 round/minute turn.

I know, I started this, but we really don't care!!! ^^

Liberty's Edge

Chuck Wright wrote:
ciretose wrote:
Chuck Wright wrote:

???

Call of Cthulhu, not counting the d20 version, has had 6 editions since 1981.

Paizo hasn't been out long enough to warrant a new edition. Your Pazio example would be akin to refuting the statement "all men think of sex" and you responding with "a newborn baby boy?"

With basically the same rules. You can pick up a module for first edition and play it with the current edition with very little adjustment.

Compare that to the edition changes of DnD.

OK, you've inserted the condition of backward's compatibility into Scott's statement to refute it.

His statement about the inevitability of new editions did not say that the rules would also be rewritten wholesale.

I understand your statement, but I think that you misunderstood his.

No, I think that he and I disagree.

In a sense the beginner box is a new edition of Pathfinder. It is a different rule set. However it is compatible with existing material, much as whatever edition of a Websters Dictionary you have is still in English.

Pathfinder is a new version of 3.5, which was a new version of 3.0, which are all the same basic chassis with different accessories. So are most of the Green Ronin games and a ton of other d20 materials.

4th edition is intentionally different enough to obsolete the prior materials and therefore force you to re-buy materials if you want to play a supported system.

You can run any 3.5 module with the pathfinder rules with very little adjustment.

You can't do the same with 4th edition. Which was intentional.

When Paizo comes out with a new edition, I will assume that they will be tweeking rather than re-writing, unless they plan to have an entire separate systems (which Lisa said would be a huge mistake, as it divides your resources and customers).

WoTC seems to be creating a 5 year purchase cycle business plan. I want no part of it.


Gendo wrote:
Any mechanic that puts that sort of 'power' (for the lack of a better descriptive) is a bad idea,

That doesn't strike me as a bad idea, and it's not even what I was talking about to begin with.

First, the problem you're seeing with destiny points really doesn't have anything to do with giving PCs power. The problem was in implementation - it created a paradigm in which hoarding those points for the end villain encounter was ideal, and that when used in this manner would make such fights trivial. That's easy to fix. For an example of what a better system looks like, see 4e's action points.

Second, I was highlighting the Deadly Trickster's ability to exercise external narrative control. Destiny points are cool, but they don't go any further than your character does - you can cause an attack to miss your character, and you can cause one of your character's attacks to automatically crit. The Deadly Trickster gets to turn any roll the DM makes into a 1. Any roll. This is really cool, because it lets the player throw a monkey wrench at the DM - mind you, a relatively minor wrench, and only once per day, but it's something. As a DM, it's the sort of thing I would love to be faced with. It's not overwhelming, campaign-reshaping power of the sort seen with high-level casters in 3.5, but it's cool.

Dark Archive

Scott Betts wrote:
ciretose wrote:
There is also a group annoyed that the business model of WoTC seems to revolve around getting people to buy a whole new set of rulebooks/modules every few years that make the old books obsolete due to lack of support.

This isn't really underhanded. It's more or less explicit, and sort of the accepted practice for tabletop roleplaying game developers. Every few years you release a new edition, incorporating changes born of the lessons you've learned over the previous edition's life cycle.

In fact, to date, no one has really demonstrated a way to successfully buck that practice.

Rolemaster, HARP, and MERP all went through this route.

You could use 1e Rolemaster supplements with the Rolemaster 4e core book, and most of it still worked (the classes had to actually be converted over).

Scott Betts wrote:
cfalcon wrote:
and of course being locked into some online gimmick is also terrible.
If that was a jab at DDI, I can assure you that it is about as far from a gimmick as something can be.

I tried out DDI, as Mentioned. It saved alot of time. The CBuilder also saved alot of time and effort.

The online CBuilder, by comparison, was crap. I know the business model reasons they switched to it, but thats not particularly relevant to me. They made a one-time-purchase product, priced it as a subscription, and were surprised that lots of people cancelled the subscription after the first month. Thats just a badly designed business model.

I want digital support.

But I don't want a subscription Tabletop RPG. Or for that matter, a tabletop RPG that relies on me having access to an internet connection all the time.

*Sell me the app.* Put out expansions. Attach a 'code' to access each new book to the physical copies. Perhaps attach sales of the app to sales of the books, so the books all come with the appropriate expansion for the app, and the main book gives you the main app.

Give me digital ebook support. I can't bring all my books with me every session. I end up bringing 1-3 of them. I still need to be able to access the rest of them if I need them.


Bah! We don't need a new edition of D&D! Phooey!


Yah! A new edition of D&D! Woo-Hoo!

The Exchange Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6

I really can't stand the software service model WotC's pushing, I'm not likely to ever adopt it long term because it grates on me to pay for a program over and over again. I'd rather get nicked per book than for a full-priced program once a year.

Dark Archive

Russ Taylor wrote:
I really can't stand the software service model WotC's pushing, I'm not likely to ever adopt it long term because it grates on me to pay for a program over and over again. I'd rather get nicked per book than for a full-priced program once a year.

This: I'm not a fan of the model in videogames either.

Make a game. Charge a reasonable amount for it. Let me buy it.
Make expansions. Let me buy them.

Don't force me to pay monthly for software.

In the Case of RPG Books, The Expansion would be the new books. Bundle the software with the books, don't charge me for both separately.

If it's done right, the people who pirate the RPG Book won't have access to the software.

Sell me a product, not a subscription.


DΗ wrote:

I tried out DDI, as Mentioned. It saved alot of time. The CBuilder also saved alot of time and effort.

The online CBuilder, by comparison, was crap. I know the business model reasons they switched to it, but thats not particularly relevant to me. They made a one-time-purchase product, priced it as a subscription, and were surprised that lots of people cancelled the subscription after the first month. Thats just a badly designed business model.

Lots of people canceled the subscription after the first month? That's news to me. I've followed the sub numbers fairly closely, and the best data we have indicates that DDI subscriptions have enjoyed a steady and substantial growth over the last two years. They're well over 60,000 active subscriptions, at this point.

Quote:

I want digital support.

But I don't want a subscription Tabletop RPG. Or for that matter, a tabletop RPG that relies on me having access to an internet connection all the time.

*Sell me the app.* Put out expansions. Attach a 'code' to access each new book to the physical copies. Perhaps attach sales of the app to sales of the books, so the books all come with the appropriate expansion for the app, and the main book gives you the main app.

They bandied this idea around, but decided it wasn't logistically feasible because of the nature of the retail book market (books out on shelves having their codes stolen, etc.). A subscription service is exactly what they needed: an easy-to-approach model, a comprehensive amount of coverage, a straightforward way to disseminate rules updates, and a reliable revenue stream. It was fairly popular. They've probably sold well over 2,000,000 months worth of DDI subscriptions, making a month's worth of DDI arguably their most popular product in a very long time.

Quote:
This: I'm not a fan of the model in videogames either.

I'm afraid it's the way things are going (not that I mind). Subscription services are very, very attractive to a company, as a pricing model.


DΗ wrote:
Sell me a product, not a subscription.

+1.

No interest in a subscription of any kind for a tabletop RPG. I know it is currently the rage but I'm pretty much "subscribed" out in my life. I would never subscribe to an RPG in any form. Make the books, I'll check them out and if I like them and think my group will use them for gaming, I'll buy them (on Amazon preferably). If I like them and don't think my group will use them anytime soon but I would still like to read them, I'll buy it in a cheaper electronic format.

Pretty simple.

Dark Archive

Scott Betts wrote:
Lots of people canceled the subscription after the first month? That's news to me. I've followed the sub numbers fairly closely, and the best data we have indicates that DDI subscriptions have enjoyed a steady and substantial growth over the last two years. They're well over 60,000 active subscriptions, at this point.

Apparently one of the things that they figured out were happening (and a big part of why they switched the CBuilder to a webapp, from what I heard) was people signing up for DDI for a month every 6 months or so, to update their CBuilder, and then cancelling again.

Quote:

They bandied this idea around, but decided it wasn't logistically feasible because of the nature of the retail book market (books out on shelves having their codes stolen, etc.). A subscription service is exactly what they needed: an easy-to-approach model, a comprehensive amount of coverage, a straightforward way to disseminate rules updates, and a reliable revenue stream. It was fairly popular. They've probably sold well over 2,000,000 months worth of DDI subscriptions, making a month's worth of DDI arguably their most popular product in a very long time.

I'm afraid it's the way things are going (not that I mind). Subscription services are very, very attractive to a company, as a pricing model.

I know that many companies like subscription services. I don't like getting games that go away when I stop paying a monthly fee. I want a game I can play 15 years even after the company discontinues service; like how I can go grab my disc for Dungeon Keeper, or Dungeon Hack, or the Forgotten Realms Interactive Atlas, and install it today, even though the company has gone under or the product stopped being supported 10 years ago.

Especially for RPGs.

As a sidenote, I imagine they sell more packs of M:tG Cards than that in a year, though I could be wrong.

As for the idea of the codes getting stolen, that's simply a matter of packaging. You send the store a "reading" copy, which they put on the shelf. It wouldn't have a code, or the store could tuck the code away somewhere. Then you shrinkwrap the books, much like magazines, and the store sells them to you shrinkwrapped, with your code & disc sitting on the inside cover somewhere (Like how EBGames, or Gamestop, or whatever works).

Hmm. I dont like much of the design philosophies in 4e in marketing even. lol.

Setting Design: X.
Game Ability Mechanics: X.
Business Model: X.

I think, like many of the 4e Players I know, If I'm paying for a subscription service, that will mostly Replace my purchasing of actual books.

You'll get more money out of me at 60$ every 1-3 months than you will if I'm paying 5$ a month, and only when I have a campaign going in your game line; and I'll be more satisfied that I'm actually getting something for my money, instead of something nebulous that wont exist down the road.


DΗ wrote:
Apparently one of the things that they figured out were happening (and a big part of why they switched the CBuilder to a webapp, from what I heard) was people signing up for DDI for a month every 6 months or so, to update their CBuilder, and then cancelling again.

Ah, okay, I thought you meant that they were experiencing sharp declines in subscriptions.

Quote:
As a sidenote, I imagine they sell more packs of M:tG Cards than that in a year, though I could be wrong.

Haha, fair point!

Quote:
As for the idea of the codes getting stolen, that's simply a matter of packaging. You send the store a "reading" copy, which they put on the shelf. It wouldn't have a code, or the store could tuck the code away somewhere. Then you shrinkwrap the books, much like magazines, and the store sells them to you shrinkwrapped, with your code & disc sitting on the inside cover somewhere (Like how EBGames, or Gamestop, or whatever works).

Like I said, they explored this as an option. I guess it turned out that the retail booksellers didn't want to play ball, or they couldn't get this to work in smaller (not enormous chain) stores. Who knows?

Quote:
I think, like many of the 4e Players I know, If I'm paying for a subscription service, that will mostly Replace my purchasing of actual books.

I think that was definitely anticipated.

Quote:
You'll get more money out of me at 60$ every 1-3 months than you will if I'm paying 5$ a month, and only when I have a campaign going in your game line; and I'll be more satisfied that I'm actually getting something for my money, instead of something nebulous that wont exist down the road.

They might get less out of you, but they might still end up with more in total if they sell more subscriptions than they were making on books.

Also bear in mind that WotC does not see the majority of the $60 you pay for those books. They receive some small fraction of that after costs and distribution are paid for.

Liberty's Edge

If they charge a resonable fee say 5-10$ a month I would get a subscription. I like the character builder and I cannot for the life of me see Wotc toss aside digital support and tools. In this day and age it makes no sense. Or a decent App. It's like having to have an internet conection to play most computer games. Either you accept that or you don't play any of the newer ones. Paizo while I like that they are giving their rules away for free also are probably losing sales. Why buy any of the books when you can just use their SRD. Espically how cheap gamers are. I would not be surprised if PF 2E has an SRD they charge you for.

I also hope they offer both print and PDf versions of their books. Going completely digital would be a mistake. If I were Wot I would look at Print on Demand And using Kickstarters for some products. Why print 5000 copiesof an rpg sourcebook that may or may not sell.

Dark Archive

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Scott Betts wrote:
Quote:
You'll get more money out of me at 60$ every 1-3 months than you will if I'm paying 5$ a month, and only when I have a campaign going in your game line; and I'll be more satisfied that I'm actually getting something for my money, instead of something nebulous that wont exist down the road.

They might get less out of you, but they might still end up with more in total if they sell more subscriptions than they were making on books.

Also bear in mind that WotC does not see the majority of the $60 you pay for those books. They receive some small fraction of that after costs and distribution are paid for.

True, I think they get like 25-35% of the sale price as profit on books, from the estimates I've heard talking to publishing guys.

So lets say they're making 15$ a month off me every 3 months. Thats more than they'd make off of me with a subscription.

If I'm not in a subscription (4e, 5e, whatever) game, I'm not going to keep paying for the subscription. So if I play 4e for 4 months then stop playing for a year, they get 40$ from me. If its books, I'm likely to keep buying the books, even if I'm not in a game, so long as I like the books. Because its not a waste. I can always use the book later.

Obviously they aren't going to change their whole business model just for me, but I don't think I'm the only one who wants digital support in the form of products instead of a subscription service.

10 Years from now I want to be able to break out my copy of (Whatever) and read it, and maybe use it in a game.

As for the internet connection thing: When I'm playing a videogame, internet access is generally available, because I'm at home.

When I'm playing an RPG, I'm often somewhere without internet, or with internet on a campus with alot of stuff blocked, or at someone else's house without internet access.

Unless I'm playing the RPG on a microsoft surface (which is awesome by the way, and I can't wait until they get cheaper) - and maybe even then, I should be able to play the RPG in a cabin in the woods somewhere, even if I cant get internet there.

Liberty's Edge

DH I get your point. Yet print is dying a very slow death. I work for the largest chain of bookstores in Canada and even they saw thw writing on the wall and created their own e-reader. Having print books in 20-30 years is no longer a guarantee. If it gets too expensive to keep books in print they will slowly disappear. Even White Wolf no longer sells books and requires you to use Drivethrurpg to get their PDfs and books. I love books and the feel of reading a book. I also cannot deny where the trend is going.


DΗ wrote:
True, I think they get like 25-35% of the sale price as profit on books, from the estimates I've heard talking to publishing guys.

Actually, that's probably the portion of the revenue they see after production costs are paid. It's not profit until they cover their overhead.

Quote:
So lets say they're making 15$ a month off me every 3 months.

Wait, $15 per month? Or $15 every 3 months? Those are two very different things.

Quote:
When I'm playing an RPG, I'm often somewhere without internet, or with internet on a campus with alot of stuff blocked, or at someone else's house without internet access.

That's less and less the case, though. Three years ago, I would have been in your same boat. I now have internet access no matter where I go, cabin-in-the-woods notwithstanding. Mobile broadband is at a point where you can have reliable, unrestricted internet access pretty much anywhere you're going to reasonably find yourself.

Quote:
Unless I'm playing the RPG on a microsoft surface (which is awesome by the way, and I can't wait until they get cheaper)

IT TOTALLY IS RIGHT HOLY CRAP I LOVE THAT TECH


memorax wrote:
DH I get your point. Yet print is dying a very slow death. I work for the largest chain of bookstores in Canada and even they saw thw writing on the wall and created their own e-reader. Having print books in 20-30 years is no longer a guarantee. If it gets too expensive to keep books in print they will slowly disappear. Even White Wolf no longer sells books and requires you to use Drivethrurpg to get their PDfs and books. I love books and the feel of reading a book. I also cannot deny where the trend is going.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but I think the trend is print-on-demand. With content going digital, we can go to Kinkos and print our books out and have them bound for less the cost. A book is a container.

Digital Information isn't rivalrous -- it's always going to be around and disgustingly easy to copy (sorry guys at Paizo, but the Internet is the WORLDS BEST COPYING MACHINE EVER CREATED BY MAN!! ).

A book, a DVD or CD, and a Hard Drive are physical storage devices. You can download information on a DVD and have it printed in on a book. Because they are physical, it takes resources to create them, and thus they are rivalrous goods. You can copy a digital copy and you will have a copy and the original source will still have their copy. You can print the book out and have it bound and have a physical copy. Your book can be stolen, but your digital content never can.

The trend is Print-on-Demand.


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber
ciretose wrote:
4th edition is intentionally different enough to obsolete the prior materials and therefore force you to re-buy materials if you want to play a supported system.

4E may have been released to make money, but that's true of just about every RPG ever produced. 4E happened because they put some (relatively) newer designers in a room and asked: "If you could redesign D&D from the ground up, what would you do?" The result was innovative, bold, and new. But not to everyone's taste. If they really just wanted to sell a new edition for more money and little work, they could have just made 3.5 revised.

I can't see 4E as anything but an honest attempt to take the game in a new direction. They learned from that, and are going to try again. I can't wait to see what they come up with. With a truly open playtest, we all will be able to before we buy.

That sounds like a win for everyone. If it doesn't end up to your tastes, there are dozens of great games that could use your support.


Sweet...I'm curious what theyll come up with.


I wish them luck, and I wish them well. I've watched things happen that I really didn't like, and I've seen things I really do.

I'd love to see a VTT roll out with the new edition of the game.

I'd love to see that VTT roll out allowing full dungeon customizing, including layering of floors.

I'd love to see the game move in a new direction than it did with 4e, but that is MY preference, no one else has to subscribe to it (nor do I expect you to!).

I will look at the open playtest. If I'm interested, I will run a game or two. If I'm not interested, I will not. It's really that simple for me.

/d


TOZ wrote:
My my, is it that time of the month already?

Mega-LOL


Elton wrote:

I learned from a Reliable Source (Margaret Weis) that someone by the name of Monte Cook is writing Fifth Edition. You know what I say to that?

*Takes a look at 4th Edition and . . . *

FUS RO DAH!

* blasts 4th Edition off the planet with the Theme for Skyrim playing in the background. *

Yahoo had it in its news reel about revamping it with a "Paizo-esk" community-involved support system. Kinda funny that NOW Hasbro sees this as a good thing. Took a while maybe it will be better than the last iteration.

Dark Archive

Scott Betts wrote:
Wait, $15 per month? Or $15 every 3 months? Those are two very different things.

Sorry. 3 months worst case, one month best case. Depends on if I have an interest in the books that came out that month.

Scott Betts wrote:
That's less and less the case, though. Three years ago, I would have been in your same boat. I now have internet access no matter where I go, cabin-in-the-woods notwithstanding. Mobile broadband is at a point where you can have reliable, unrestricted internet access pretty much anywhere you're going to reasonably find yourself.

Ah. Thats very much not the case in Canada. If you don't live inside city limits, there is a very decent chance you'll have very spotty cellphone signal, and no opportunities for internet beyond 56k on lines that can't support anything higher than 28k.

And inside the cities, mobile internet is nigh nonexistent. Its ridiculously expensive, and not worth the hassle. Generally, you have internet if you're within range of a wifi hotspot you have the password to. That's about it.

So realistically, if I leave town for the the weekend, or even go somewhere that isn't my house, or the house of a friend, there will be no internet access.

Quote:
Unless I'm playing the RPG on a microsoft surface (which is awesome by the way, and I can't wait until they get cheaper)
Scott Betts wrote:
IT TOTALLY IS RIGHT HOLY CRAP I LOVE THAT TECH

I want a microsoft surface as a gaming table. Like one of those custom wooden gaming tables they have these days, but with a microsoft surface as the center.

Dark Archive

Darkmeer wrote:

I'd love to see a VTT roll out with the new edition of the game.

I'd love to see that VTT roll out allowing full dungeon customizing, including layering of floors.

With support for a microsoft surface, clearly :P

But seriously, this:

You want me to buy in, give me at least a High Def 2d equivalent of Neverwinter Nights one, complete with toolset. There's a good chance I'll buy in even if I'm not that keen on the RPG that its attached to.


DΗ wrote:

Ah. Thats very much not the case in Canada. If you don't live inside city limits, there is a very decent chance you'll have very spotty cellphone signal, and no opportunities for internet beyond 56k on lines that can't support anything higher than 28k.

And inside the cities, mobile internet is nigh nonexistent. Its ridiculously expensive, and not worth the hassle. Generally, you have internet if you're within range of a wifi hotspot you have the password to. That's about it.

Well great. Vancouver was on my list of best places to live, and now I'm re-evaluating.

Quote:
I want a microsoft surface as a gaming table. Like one of those custom wooden gaming tables they have these days, but with a microsoft surface as the center.

I was just telling some friends about how I want a gaming table with a wooden surface that can be removed, and a Surface display raised from below to take its place when the situation calls for it. I would be the envy of my nerdiest peers.


Darkmeer wrote:

I wish them luck, and I wish them well. I've watched things happen that I really didn't like, and I've seen things I really do.

I'd love to see a VTT roll out with the new edition of the game.

I'd love to see that VTT roll out allowing full dungeon customizing, including layering of floors.

I'd love to see the game move in a new direction than it did with 4e, but that is MY preference, no one else has to subscribe to it (nor do I expect you to!).

I will look at the open playtest. If I'm interested, I will run a game or two. If I'm not interested, I will not. It's really that simple for me.

/d

By all reports of an Alpha Test by reporters? It's going to be Awesome!

Dark Archive

memorax wrote:
DH I get your point. Yet print is dying a very slow death. I work for the largest chain of bookstores in Canada and even they saw thw writing on the wall and created their own e-reader. Having print books in 20-30 years is no longer a guarantee. If it gets too expensive to keep books in print they will slowly disappear. Even White Wolf no longer sells books and requires you to use Drivethrurpg to get their PDfs and books. I love books and the feel of reading a book. I also cannot deny where the trend is going.

And some day, going all digital might be worth the effort.

That day isn't here yet. The technology isn't good enough.

When I can get a light-weight, dual-touchscreen tablet, which I can read ebooks displaying a page on each side, have no lag when switching pages, and can keep 6-10 pdfs open at once in tabs, can store either 1TB of files, or supports SD and Micro SD Cards which I can switch out manually, with a battery life of at least 6 hours when doing this, for under $1000: Then going all ebooks will be worth the trouble.

But my guess is that day won't be here for another 5-10 years.

We have rudimentary versions of this stuff, but the performance is crap.

Dark Archive

Scott Betts wrote:
Well great. Vancouver was on my list of best places to live, and now I'm re-evaluating.

I've actually heard the internet access in a couple cities in BC is great, and I think Vancouver was one of them, but those handful of cities are the exception, not the norm.

I live in Ontario. In town, you can get 30mbps down, and 150gb/mo for about $65/mo (Rogers Internet). Or through a small competitor (Teksavvy) you can get 20mbps down and unlimited/mo for comparable prices, maybe slightly less expensive.

But thats not portable, thats to get it in your home. Portable is substantially more expensive, and your access outside town is not good at all.


DΗ wrote:
memorax wrote:
DH I get your point. Yet print is dying a very slow death. I work for the largest chain of bookstores in Canada and even they saw thw writing on the wall and created their own e-reader. Having print books in 20-30 years is no longer a guarantee. If it gets too expensive to keep books in print they will slowly disappear. Even White Wolf no longer sells books and requires you to use Drivethrurpg to get their PDfs and books. I love books and the feel of reading a book. I also cannot deny where the trend is going.

And some day, going all digital might be worth the effort.

That day isn't here yet. The technology isn't good enough.

When I can get a light-weight, dual-touchscreen tablet, which I can read ebooks displaying a page on each side, have no lag when switching pages, and can keep 6-10 pdfs open at once in tabs, can store either 1TB of files, or supports SD and Micro SD Cards which I can switch out manually, with a battery life of at least 6 hours when doing this, for under $1000: Then going all ebooks will be worth the trouble.

But my guess is that day won't be here for another 5-10 years.

I daresay you're probably looking at 1-2 years for this, frankly - though the dual-touchscreen thing strikes me as a may-or-may-not-happen. I'm not sure a two-screen tablet is really in the cards. But the rest of it? No problem. We're already seeing very powerful tablets capable of doing pretty much everything you're talking about - the Asus EEE Transformer Prime boasts a quad-core processor, 10" touchscreen, a full gigabyte of RAM (and that will likely double within a year or two), a Micro SD slot, a battery life of 12 hours (increased to 18 if you dock it), and a sticker of $500. I expect it handles PDFs swimmingly.

Dark Archive

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But that's my point. We have laptops that can handle PDFs, sure. And some of the pricey ones might even handle them to my satisfaction.

I have one of those Asus'.

Theres lag turning pages with one PDF open, and its barely responsive with 4 pdfs open. And thats all with a regular monitor, which is crap if you want to be able to read and display 2 pages simultaneously.

Basically I want something like an iPad, that has 2 screens, can read all manner of PDFs, has either alot more space, or supports expansion, and doesnt lag when flipping through pdfs.

If I was to try to do it with what's available now, I'd need like, 4 of them, or more, and I'd still be irritated by how slow it is, and the inability to display two pages at once at a reasonable page size. Currently, I dont consider them to be worth the effort.

There are some 2-screen tablets in the works, I've seen demos. Haven't seen a working model yet though.

I imagine it will be a few years before I see a device that I'd actually consider good enough to replace bringing multiple RPG Books.

The iPad can't display all the images in alot of PDFs. Apparently its picky about which image formats it can handle in a pdf, and having seen them used, the lag is painful.

The Acers you mention: They do a crappy job running multiple programs at once, and are too slow for multiple PDFs. Additionally, more page turning because of the inability to do 2up with a decent size for each page.

At the moment I'm stuck with a laptop. It's a decent laptop. Cost 1100.
The screen is too small to do 2up, and its still too much of a pain switching between multiple pdfs, and sometimes it takes a like 2 seconds to turn a page. And this thing is only a couple months old.

At the moment my laptop isn't sufficient to replace my books. I find I bring a laptop for books I dont need to refer to very often, and bring actual books for anything I do.

That's why I say itll be a while before I see a device worth actually replacing my books. If most full-blown laptops dont give me good enough performance to consider it worthwhile, I doubt one thats a reasonable size to replace my books is coming soon enough.

If I end up being wrong, hey; great.

-----

Edit: Actually, my laptop comparison likely isnt fair, since I expect the laptop to also be a laptop, and keep some word documents, and web pages, and a dice roller open at the same time as the PDFs.

Additionally, it could partially be because I'm actually running *Adobe* Acrobat reader, and adobe software isn't known for being smooth and efficient; rather, it tends to be pretty bloated.

Maybe if I got a second laptop comparable to the one I have now, used it for nothing but pdfs, and got a 3rd party PDF reader, I'd get performance good enough to replace my books. But it would be kindof big, and I'd need to attach a second (even clunkier) screen, if I want to get 2up anywhere near full size.

Obviously, I expect stellar performance. If its to replace my books, I expect it to be better than my books. load times on a page or switching between pdfs shouldn't be more than 1/4 of a second. less than that if it can only display 1 page at a time (which will always bug me).

We'll see what gets released.

-----

But I dont see my books going anywhere for a while.

Contributor

Linking this post here since it is still relevant.

Please post nicely on our boards, and play the game you want to play without saying that others are having BadWrongFun because they're not playing what you are.


DΗ wrote:

But that's my point. We have laptops that can handle PDFs, sure. And some of the pricey ones might even handle them to my satisfaction.

I have one of those Asus'.

Theres lag turning pages with one PDF open, and its barely responsive with 4 pdfs open. And thats all with a regular monitor, which is crap if you want to be able to read and display 2 pages simultaneously.

Basically I want something like an iPad, that has 2 screens, can read all manner of PDFs, has either alot more space, or supports expansion, and doesnt lag when flipping through pdfs.

If I was to try to do it with what's available now, I'd need like, 4 of them, or more, and I'd still be irritated by how slow it is, and the inability to display two pages at once at a reasonable page size. Currently, I dont consider them to be worth the effort.

There are some 2-screen tablets in the works, I've seen demos. Haven't seen a working model yet though.

I imagine it will be a few years before I see a device that I'd actually consider good enough to replace bringing multiple RPG Books.

The iPad can't display all the images in alot of PDFs. Apparently its picky about which image formats it can handle in a pdf, and having seen them used, the lag is painful.

The Acers you mention: They do a crappy job running multiple programs at once, and are too slow for multiple PDFs. Additionally, more page turning because of the inability to do 2up with a decent size for each page.

At the moment I'm stuck with a laptop. It's a decent laptop. Cost 1100.
The screen is too small to do 2up, and its still too much of a pain switching between multiple pdfs, and sometimes it takes a like 2 seconds to turn a page. And this thing is only a couple months old.

At the moment my laptop isn't sufficient to replace my books. I find I bring a laptop for books I dont need to refer to very often, and bring actual books for anything I do.

That's why I say itll be a while before I see a device worth actually replacing my books. If most full-blown laptops dont...

Have you tried Foxit instead of the craptastical Adobe reader?


DΗ wrote:

But that's my point. We have laptops that can handle PDFs, sure. And some of the pricey ones might even handle them to my satisfaction.

I have one of those Asus'.

The EEE Transformer Prime is a 10" tablet, not a laptop. Don't let the EEE prefix fool you. I have an EEE netbook, and it handles PDFs very poorly. I think that is largely the fault of an overtaxed processor, which the Transformer Prime doesn't really have to worry about (both because it runs Android instead of Windows, and because it has an extra three processor cores to play around with).

Dark Archive

draco_nite wrote:
Have you tried Foxit instead of the craptastical Adobe reader?

I haven't used foxit in 5 or 6 years. It just occurred to me while I was in the shower that ditching adobe might help. Foxit doesnt have much in the way of pdf editing capabilities, and that was why I went back to adobe. But during games, I'm not doing any PDF Editing, so maybe I should go get foxit again.

Scott Betts wrote:
The EEE Transformer Prime is a 10" tablet, not a laptop. Don't let the EEE prefix fool you. I have an EEE netbook, and it handles PDFs very poorly. I think that is largely the fault of an overtaxed processor, which the Transformer Prime doesn't really have to worry about.

Ah. Yeah I thought you were talking about one of the EEE netbooks that choke if you open even one netbook.

I'm looking for something along the lines of the Acer Iconia (a big big) or Sony Tablet P (a bit small), or the NEC Dual Screen Android Tablet(nice size); but I want to be sure it can handle the flipping through multiple PDFs.

Demo

It can handle Mangas, but Mangas aren't anywhere near as processor heavy as RPG PDFs, so I dunno. I'd have to see how it handles having several pdfs open simultaneously.


DΗ wrote:
draco_nite wrote:
Have you tried Foxit instead of the craptastical Adobe reader?

I haven't used foxit in 5 or 6 years. It just occurred to me while I was in the shower that ditching adobe might help. Foxit doesnt have much in the way of pdf editing capabilities, and that was why I went back to adobe. But during games, I'm not doing any PDF Editing, so maybe I should go get foxit again.

Scott Betts wrote:
The EEE Transformer Prime is a 10" tablet, not a laptop. Don't let the EEE prefix fool you. I have an EEE netbook, and it handles PDFs very poorly. I think that is largely the fault of an overtaxed processor, which the Transformer Prime doesn't really have to worry about.

Ah. Yeah I thought you were talking about one of the EEE netbooks that choke if you open even one netbook.

I'm looking for something along the lines of the Acer Iconia (a big big) or Sony Tablet P (a bit small), or the NEC Dual Screen Android Tablet(nice size); but I want to be sure it can handle the flipping through multiple PDFs.

Yeah, the Transformer Prime is the same form factor and screen resolution as the Iconia. If you're really looking, I'd suggest heading into a store (once they actually have some in stock; they're pretty tough to get ahold of) and trying out its multi-PDF capabilities to see if they're up to snuff. Either way, I really think the sort of solution you're looking for is much closer to 1-2 years off than it is to 5-10 years off. Tablet tech is pushing forward pretty hard.

Shadow Lodge

Does the Transformer Prime turn into a robot and fight Decepticons?


Kthulhu wrote:
Does the Transformer Prime turn into a robot and fight Decepticons?

Funny you should mention that.

The Exchange

deinol wrote:
If they really just wanted to sell a new edition for more money and little work, they could have just made 3.5 revised.

What, like PF? Damn those money-grubbers at Paizo!

Actually, I'm a bit disappointed by this since I'm enjoying 4e right now. I doubt I'll participate in the playtest but I'd be interested to see what comes out - and whether this really manages to harness computing to TTRPGs.

Dark Archive

Hmm. The Iconia looks respectable.

Dual touch-screen, seems to have decent performance (unlike the Libretto).

Maybe I will have decent options in a year or two. Most of the touch tablets I've looked at in the past 5 years have been nothing but a big disappointment to me.

The Transformer Prime looks nice, But if I'm looking for a book replacement, the dual touchscreen bit is really important to me.

Dark Archive

Scott Betts wrote:
Kthulhu wrote:
Does the Transformer Prime turn into a robot and fight Decepticons?
Funny you should mention that.

...

That's ridiculous.

What's next? Suing Electricity Companies for breach of trademark?

Liberty's Edge

deinol wrote:


That sounds like a win for everyone. If it doesn't end up to your tastes, there are dozens of great games that could use your support.

Everyone except the people who invested money into 4E only to find out it will no longer be supported with new material.

Grand Lodge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
ciretose wrote:
deinol wrote:


That sounds like a win for everyone. If it doesn't end up to your tastes, there are dozens of great games that could use your support.
Everyone except the people who invested money into 4E only to find out it will no longer be supported with new material.

I've already re-bought my full D&D collection three times in my lifetime (2nd -> 3rd -> 4th -> PF, and yes, I sold a couple of 3rd Ed books that in retrospect I'd rather not have - anyone have a copy of the Eberron Campaign Setting I can buy off them? ;) ). As someone you'd expect to be outraged by this... I don't really care. Everyone's collection could stand to be weeded from time to time. I'm also a library paraprofessional. Sensible periodic weeding is part of my job, and a LOT of people (in fact, virtually everyone) have books in their collection that they never pull off the shelf and read or use.

Liberty's Edge

Kittyburger wrote:
ciretose wrote:
deinol wrote:


That sounds like a win for everyone. If it doesn't end up to your tastes, there are dozens of great games that could use your support.
Everyone except the people who invested money into 4E only to find out it will no longer be supported with new material.
I've already re-bought my full D&D collection three times in my lifetime (2nd -> 3rd -> 4th -> PF, and yes, I sold a couple of 3rd Ed books that in retrospect I'd rather not have - anyone have a copy of the Eberron Campaign Setting I can buy off them? ;) ). As someone you'd expect to be outraged by this... I don't really care. Everyone's collection could stand to be weeded from time to time. I'm also a library paraprofessional. Sensible periodic weeding is part of my job, and a LOT of people (in fact, virtually everyone) have books in their collection that they never pull off the shelf and read or use.

I never said "you" should be outraged. I said I don't think it is an unreasonable expectation that purchased rules should be supported for more that 5 years.

When 4th becomes 5th, your new 4th edition materials, such as modules, will stop being made.

If you are bored with a system and need a new one every 5 years, this model is for you.

Personally, I like having new material coming out for the existing chassis so I don't need to learn/teach a new system just as the group is getting deep into a few campaigns.

If I personally had switched to 4th and really invested in it, I would be furious given the likelihood this is going to be a complete re-boot that obsoletes 5 years of purchases by assuring that they system I've been running is no longer support rather than a revision of the basic chassis to fix bugs.

YMMV

Grand Lodge

ciretose wrote:
Kittyburger wrote:
ciretose wrote:
deinol wrote:


That sounds like a win for everyone. If it doesn't end up to your tastes, there are dozens of great games that could use your support.
Everyone except the people who invested money into 4E only to find out it will no longer be supported with new material.
I've already re-bought my full D&D collection three times in my lifetime (2nd -> 3rd -> 4th -> PF, and yes, I sold a couple of 3rd Ed books that in retrospect I'd rather not have - anyone have a copy of the Eberron Campaign Setting I can buy off them? ;) ). As someone you'd expect to be outraged by this... I don't really care. Everyone's collection could stand to be weeded from time to time. I'm also a library paraprofessional. Sensible periodic weeding is part of my job, and a LOT of people (in fact, virtually everyone) have books in their collection that they never pull off the shelf and read or use.

I never said "you" should be outraged. I said I don't think it is an unreasonable expectation that purchased rules should be supported for more that 5 years.

When 4th becomes 5th, your new 4th edition materials, such as modules, will stop being made.

If you are bored with a system and need a new one every 5 years, this model is for you.

Personally, I like having new material coming out for the existing chassis so I don't need to learn/teach a new system just as the group is getting deep into a few campaigns.

If I personally had switched to 4th and really invested in it, I would be furious given the likelihood this is going to be a complete re-boot that obsoletes 5 years of purchases by assuring that they system I've been running is no longer support rather than a revision of the basic chassis to fix bugs.

YMMV

YMM very much V in this case.

Systems change, games change. I've played, long-term, at least three RPGs where an edition change has obsoleted previous material. One twice (D&D, World of Darkness, and Mekton).

Really! I don't get where you're coming from with this idea that people should be furious or angry that a new edition is coming out and the crunch in their extant books and magazines will be obsolete! It doesn't make sense to me!

Maybe I'm just more accepting of things. Who knows? But the point is, this doesn't seem like something to get particularly upset about.

Liberty's Edge

Elton wrote:


Sorry to burst your bubble, but I think the trend is print-on-demand. With content going digital, we can go to Kinkos and print our books out and have them bound for less the cost. A book is a container.

Digital Information isn't rivalrous -- it's always going to be around and disgustingly easy to copy (sorry guys at Paizo, but the Internet is the WORLDS BEST COPYING MACHINE EVER CREATED BY MAN!! ).

A book, a DVD or CD, and a Hard Drive are physical storage devices. You can download information on a DVD and have it printed in on a book. Because they are physical, it takes resources to create them, and thus they are rivalrous goods. You can copy a digital copy and you will have a copy and the original source will still have their copy. You can print the book out and have it bound and have a physical copy. Your book can be stolen, but your digital content never can.

The trend is Print-on-Demand.

Forgot about POD. And your right for many years that will be the standrard yet like it or not the printed book imo will dissappear. It's still a long way off imo. At least 10-20 years yet unfortunately it will happen. You might not think it will but it will. I think Kickstarters too will be a major factor. Why print 2500-5000 copies of a book and then have it not sell and take up space. If the custo,mers want a PF cookbook let them put the money in for it so that Pazioc can guage an interest then publish it.

Hero Games Kickstarter http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/herogames/the-book-of-the-empress Which began on the first and whose goal was reached two days ago

Two Kickstarters for Eden Stdios Conspiracy X http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1801360072/conspiracy-x-rpg-the-paranor mal-sourcebook?ref=live and http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1801360072/conspiracy-x-rpg-the-extrate rrestrials-sourcebook?ref=live . Out of the two POD and Kickstarting I see both bring used. More kickstarters because why even work on a book if one cannot even get the fnbase to fund it. Seems like a wste of money to me.


For books to disappear, we first need a widely available way to carry and read digital documents with the same comfort as books.
ipad is a first step, but way to expensive now. And it's not just urban western and east-asians age 10 to 40 who would need to have them, but everyone. Could easily be still 100 years.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

Yora wrote:
They got the 3.5e psionic guy, I consider that a good sign.

Maybe. Some lemons (in)Complete psionic comes to mind.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

ciretose wrote:
deinol wrote:


That sounds like a win for everyone. If it doesn't end up to your tastes, there are dozens of great games that could use your support.
Everyone except the people who invested money into 4E only to find out it will no longer be supported with new material.

*shrug* nothing's forever.

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