From an avid 4E fan, the announcement of an edition change is something of a shock (because of the timing) but not un-expected. I knew at some point they'd do something different that would or wouldn't support the system I've grown to really love. I hope 5E is great and going with the Playtests, I hope to make it great.
For what this does to a 4E fan? Well for one we'll never have to worry about the constant Errata that occurs every so many months when people complain about such-and-such combo or power or feat or some crap. Furthermore, I feel this situation puts people who are creative at the fore-front of homebrew and fan published/created material. Since the big company isn't make Paragon Paths anymore and there are a few aspects people would like to see, just create it yourself and post it online or put it in a PDF and sell it (making sure to abide by any copyright laws). We, the fans, would be in total control of the direction the game would go.
|
*shrug* nothing's forever.Everyone except the people who invested money into 4E only to find out it will no longer be supported with new material.
That sounds like a win for everyone. If it doesn't end up to your tastes, there are dozens of great games that could use your support.
Five years isn't even enough time to work the bugs out of a system.
ROTRL is coming up on it's 5 year anniversary. It was written for 3.5, which was released in 2003 (8 years ago) which was compatible with 3.0 (released in 2000).
That means the system Pathfinder is based on, and compatible with, is coming up on 12 years old, and for the last two quarters has been the most popular.
Releasing "Editions" is about revising the system, not rewriting it. I was fine with 3.5, since 3.0 needed a lot of work. I was fine with Pathfinder, as it corrected some issues with 3.5. The Beginner box simplifies a lot of rules to create a different, but compatible edition of basically the same game.
If you had a child in 2000, you could pull out a module or AP you ran and with minimal work convert it so that you could run the same campaign for your soon to be 12 year old kid. You could run the exact same game that you once played.
That has a value.
I am buying the 5th anniversary edition of RoTRL in part so that when my kid is older if she is interested in what for me is a life long hobby I can teach it to here and play it with her.
If you try that with 4th E, by the time she is 10 we will be on 6th edition with completely incompatible rules. Your experience will require you to pull out what is functionally a dead language as an introduction if you want to share the same game you once ran.
It was one thing when they created a new DnD after two decades of revisions. It was failing and going bankrupt so you can't really argue that even say after 11 years of 2nd edition it was time for a change. It a whole other thing to have new editions every 5 years, when the core product was still popular.
There will be no generational carry over if you are literally playing different games every 5 years.
Some of us old farts like having our regular game with the people we know playing the rule set we know. We'll drift around to 3PP who use the same basic system from time to time, but what we want are new adventures, new options, but not an entirely new rule system.
We like the rules, that was why we bought them. Now we just need new places to explore.
This is why Paizo is competitive with a brand as synonymous with the product as Kleneex is with tissues. People liked the product, people like the product.
And people like 4E. They have spent the last 4 years investing in learning the rules, buying the books, forming gaming groups and teaching new people these new rules to create a community of players...that will no longer be supported.
Why would I invest time and money into something the company isn't even committed to for more than 5 years? If I were a casual gamer with unlimited disposable income, maybe I'd buy "The new" hot game as it comes out.
But I'm a lifer. Even if something interesting comes out of the exercise, why should I believe that if I get invested in it, they won't pull the rug out again five years from now and stop creating new material for the product my group invested hundreds of dollars in so that they can create an entirely new product?
It is going to go one of three ways. It will either build of 4E, which I will applaud as a positive step that is fair to the 4E players, but with be something I have no interest in since I find 4E to be a shallow system, or it will revert back to being a modified version of the 3.0-3.5 system, in which case I'll look but don't expect it to be as well supported as Pathfinder (since WoTC has never been as good at modules and adventures) or it will be something entirely new and incompatible, which I will have no interest in since it indicates the business model is to support a new system every 5 years or so.
Well, 4th Edition is the first one with an active length of 5 years. No indication so far that this is the new standard.
Actually, it is. Wizards of the Coast has a five year release schedule.
If you read some of the posts made as of late by WotC employees, they are not putting out 5th at this time just because it's time to start getting people to buy more books. They have pretty much come out and explicitly said 4th edition was a mistake. They have lost a ton of their fan base over it over the past few years and are trying to salvage a bad situation. There is a reason that pretty much every person that was involved in the creation of 4th has been let go from WotC and why they have hired back some of the old school. As they have said, they have learned from their mistakes and are going back to the core of what made them "D&D" in the first place.
I think it's a very smart decision. They last thing I think most people want to see would be for Hasbro to shelve D&D (yes I know there are some of you out there that would dance in the streets). Sure there are other companies that would pick up the slack, but nothing has the power in the RPG world as the words "Dungeons and Dragons".
So don't think of this announcement 3 years after the release of 4th as them just forcing you to buy new books, they are trying to salvage the game and regain back their loyal fans. I wish them well and hope they are able to do it.
|
Well great. Vancouver was on my list of best places to live, and now I'm re-evaluating.
Vancouver's internet is fine - if you get a landline. Mobile internet plans on those little usb dongles aren't cheap but are available (35 bucks a month unlimited). Given the density of starbucks / other coffee shops however, you can get free wireless internet pretty much anywhere.
Like was mentioned above, if you leave the city to travel you are looking at hotel internet or using your mobile phone account.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
If you read some of the posts made as of late by WotC employees, they are not putting out 5th at this time just because it's time to start getting people to buy more books. They have pretty much come out and explicitly said 4th edition was a mistake. They have lost a ton of their fan base over it over the past few years and are trying to salvage a bad situation. There is a reason that pretty much every person that was involved in the creation of 4th has been let go from WotC and why they have hired back some of the old school. As they have said, they have learned from their mistakes and are going back to the core of what made them "D&D" in the first place.
I think it's a very smart decision. They last thing I think most people want to see would be for Hasbro to shelve D&D (yes I know there are some of you out there that would dance in the streets). Sure there are other companies that would pick up the slack, but nothing has the power in the RPG world as the words "Dungeons and Dragons".
So don't think of this announcement 3 years after the release of 4th as them just forcing you to buy new books, they are trying to salvage the game and regain back their loyal fans. I wish them well and hope they are able to do it.
Dungeons and Dragons is a brand. That is all it is. It has changed owners many times, it has changed staff many times.
Woolworth's and Sears used to be dominate the market as well.
WoTC bought the game in 1997, 3.0 was released in 2000. The incarnation most of us played and were loyal to was 3.5, which was released in 2003.
In 2007 4th Edition was announced and in 2008 3.5 was no longer supported.
So if your loyalty was to 3.5, it lasted 5 years.
The Pathfinder Playtest started in March of 2008, meaning this year will be four years since the release, 5 years since the split.
The game is fine, it left the company when the company left the game an for the last two quarters has been beating the competition.
The brand is in trouble.
Don't confuse the two.
Everyone except the people who invested money into 4E only to find out it will no longer be supported with new material.
That sounds like a win for everyone. If it doesn't end up to your tastes, there are dozens of great games that could use your support.
I guess I'm just a fan of too many no-longer-supported games for that to bother me.
When someone says "Man, Dresden Files is a great game, but I wish it had support." They are complaining because the core set is all there is. There are tons of RPGs that only ever made one or two books. I really want more Dragon Age support. One box a year is just not enough.
But don't confuse sufficient support with infinite support. It's been years since any new Talislanta books were produced. But I have enough material to run Talislanta games for the rest of my life. Same with WEG Star Wars. Same with old World of Darkness.
4E D&D has more than enough support that I can keep playing it until the pry the dice from my cold dead hands. Am I sad that I'll never get another 4E Dark Sun book? A little. But there's more than enough 4E material to support the system for many, many years of gaming.
If I were a die-hard 4E only fan, I'd finish off my collection and get back to gaming.
If I were a die-hard 4E only fan, I'd finish off my collection and get back to gaming.
+1, something I plan to do.
Wow. 5e already.
So, it looks like 4e was, indeed, a failure. Not a failure in that it was a 'bad game' in any way (which it certainly wasn't, obviously) - just a failure in that it turned out it was a niche-y game for a comparatively small number of users (i.e. it turned out that not that many people liked it). Based, of course, on comments from WotC staffers themselves, which still read to me as a bit unbelievable they said the things they did.
But ah well. As with all things, they win some, they lose some.
So, it looks like 4e was, indeed, a failure. Not a failure in that it was a 'bad game' in any way (which it certainly wasn't, obviously) - just a failure in that it turned out it was a niche-y game for a comparatively small number of users (i.e. it turned out that not that many people liked it).
If by "nichey failure" you mean more successful than any other RPG produced in the last 4 years besides Pathfinder.
Evil Hat, Mongoose, Green Ronin, and many more companies would love to fail as hard as 4E did.
Wow. 5e already.
So, it looks like 4e was, indeed, a failure. Not a failure in that it was a 'bad game' in any way (which it certainly wasn't, obviously) - just a failure in that it turned out it was a niche-y game for a comparatively small number of users (i.e. it turned out that not that many people liked it). Based, of course, on comments from WotC staffers themselves, which still read to me as a bit unbelievable they said the things they did.
But ah well. As with all things, they win some, they lose some.
Not at all. It was only a "failure" in the sense that Hasbro had unrealistic income expectations. (In my humble opinion.)
|
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
|
Everyone except the people who invested money into 4E only to find out it will no longer be supported with new material.
That sounds like a win for everyone. If it doesn't end up to your tastes, there are dozens of great games that could use your support.I guess I'm just a fan of too many no-longer-supported games for that to bother me.
When someone says "Man, Dresden Files is a great game, but I wish it had support." They are complaining because the core set is all there is. There are tons of RPGs that only ever made one or two books. I really want more Dragon Age support. One box a year is just not enough.
<snip>
Have you looked at KQ? They've some AGE supliments. I've picked up both boxed sets more for Thedas information than the game system.
Have you looked at KQ? They've some AGE supliments. I've picked up both boxed sets more for Thedas information than the game system.
I have an "Additional Design" credit in the Midgard Age Bestiary. ;)
I love Open Design, but I could still use more monsters for my upcoming Dragon Age Kingmaker game set in Midgard. I suspect I'll have a bunch of monsters already converted by the time they're ready for Midgard Age Bestiary Vol 2.
*shrug* nothing's forever.Actually, all game products should be. I can still use 1ed Dragon magazines in my campaign (3.X). I still get mileage out of 2ed stuffs. So what you meant to say is, 4ed is the shortest lived version in useful lifespan.
Am I the only one who sees the irony there? I fully expect to get as much use out of my 4E books, particularly Gamma World and Dark Sun.
Hmm. The Iconia looks respectable.
Dual touch-screen, seems to have decent performance (unlike the Libretto).
Maybe I will have decent options in a year or two. Most of the touch tablets I've looked at in the past 5 years have been nothing but a big disappointment to me.
The Transformer Prime looks nice, But if I'm looking for a book replacement, the dual touchscreen bit is really important to me.
I'm using Iconia A500 (the low end model) an it's running fine mostly. It's Android, so having two things open on one screen is not much an option, but it handles the PDFs pretty well (Adobe reader has problems with Land of the Linnom Kings map for some reason (no enough memory), but other readers can digest it better) and the battery can last through 6 or more hours of reading and occasional game. Flash animation and other fiddly bits are occasionally quie irksome, no Idea what it would be like to run an online builder on the tablet, but I'm a but sceptical. These things are not made with touchscreen or phone in mind, so the controlls can be frustrating even with larger screen. Oh, the wifi signal receiver is not as powerful as I'd like sometimes...
I don't have good reference on W500 tough (windows 7 is said to be slow on it and the battery is not lasting too long).
I looked on EEEs, Samsungs and íPods, but the Acer won for me because it actually has a USB port that I can use for flash dics. (I think that transformer has one as well, but it was way out of my financial reach almost double price on local market :( ).
I have high hopes for next generation of touch screen computers in this area, but now they are still not THAT good IMO.
|
|
Am I the only one who sees the irony there? I fully expect to get as much use out of my 4E books, particularly Gamma World and Dark Sun.*shrug* nothing's forever.Actually, all game products should be. I can still use 1ed Dragon magazines in my campaign (3.X). I still get mileage out of 2ed stuffs. So what you meant to say is, 4ed is the shortest lived version in useful lifespan.
I wouldn't, since tons of 3PP are writing material for Pathfinder that is compatible with 3.0/3.5 etc...thanks to the OGL, while once Hasbro moves on, no one will be writing any new material for 4E thanks to their licensing.
If they do the major version revision comparable to what they did from 3.5 to 4E, you will not see any new material from WoTC or 3PP.
The only reason 3.5 didn't die on the vine was the OGL being so, well open.
But if you aren't really invested in any particular ruleset, that isn't a problem for you.
It is a problem for WoTC however, as your money, attention, and loyalty is divided.
I wouldn't, since tons of 3PP are writing material for Pathfinder that is compatible with 3.0/3.5 etc...thanks to the OGL, while once Hasbro moves on, no one will be writing any new material for 4E thanks to their licensing.Actually, all game products should be. I can still use 1ed Dragon magazines in my campaign (3.X). I still get mileage out of 2ed stuffs. So what you meant to say is, 4ed is the shortest lived version in useful lifespan.Am I the only one who sees the irony there? I fully expect to get as much use out of my 4E books, particularly Gamma World and Dark Sun.
You completely missed my point. Cfalcon said that he was still getting use out of his 1st edition and 2nd edition stuff. TSR hasn't supported those in years. I can get similar amounts of use out of 4E material.
If I personally had switched to 4th and really invested in it, I would be furious given the likelihood this is going to be a complete re-boot that obsoletes 5 years of purchases by assuring that they system I've been running is no longer support rather than a revision of the basic chassis to fix bugs.
I think it's probably a good idea not to get outraged on other peoples' behalf, especially when you're not actually seeing much in the way of outrage from them.
As I've discussed earlier, I have a feeling that a lot of the people who made the switch to 4e are the sort of people who are just naturally excited by what's next, and like to try new things. If that turns out to be the case, most of them are probably pretty cool with the announcement. Morrus's Twitter poll from yesterday is only further support for this - out of over 250 respondents (most of whom I have to imagine play 4e, since it's EN World we're talking about) only 4 reacted to the news negatively.
|
If I personally had switched to 4th and really invested in it, I would be furious given the likelihood this is going to be a complete re-boot that obsoletes 5 years of purchases by assuring that they system I've been running is no longer support rather than a revision of the basic chassis to fix bugs.I think it's probably a good idea not to get outraged on other peoples' behalf, especially when you're not actually seeing much in the way of outrage from them.
As I've discussed earlier, I have a feeling that a lot of the people who made the switch to 4e are the sort of people who are just naturally excited by what's next, and like to try new things. If that turns out to be the case, most of them are probably pretty cool with the announcement. Morrus's Twitter poll from yesterday is only further support for this - out of over 250 respondents (most of whom I have to imagine play 4e, since it's EN World we're talking about) only 4 reacted to the news negatively.
Eh, I'm not outraged (bit too strong of a word) but quite disappointed. I'm disappointed that from my point of view the game is being changed due to what Wizards or Hasbro perceives as a lack of commercial dominance in the industry.
They want to reunite the fan-base is how they're selling this, what does that even mean? Who are they trying to appeal to? Are they trying to win back Paizo fans to the fold? Those that are still playing 3.5? I'm not quite sure who they're trying to cater to with this exactly.
As for me, I've been playing 4e a bit since March 2009. System wise I think it's solid, and I love the balance in it. The books as written aren't really as tinker-friendly as some may like, but I think it's the best version released yet.
Now where they've not been as successful is in fluff and in providing a compelling setting. However both of these don't require a system reboot. Also, the LFR just hasn't grabbed me much, but hey it's popcorn I wasn't complaining too much it was cheap, fun entertainment with the lads. I played it quite a bit so must have been ok I suppose...
Needless to say, perhaps I'm just nerdraging here but I'm sorta peeved at the moment. Of course, I was saying years ago I wouldn't change from 3.5 to 4e so not exactly the best track record there! ;p
|
|
I hope they don't change the 'core' 4e rules too much. It's not the buying of new books, rather the having to learn ANOTHER system that gets annoying for me.
1e & 2e were so similar I noticed little, then 3e came out and I had to force feed my brain, 4e comes out and the same again. Please stop tinkering with the rules WotC - decide on a core set of rules and STICK WITH THEM!
I feel better, thanks for listening ;)
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
You completely missed my point. Cfalcon said that he was still getting use out of his 1st edition and 2nd edition stuff. TSR hasn't supported those in years. I can get similar amounts of use out of 4E material.I wouldn't, since tons of 3PP are writing material for Pathfinder that is compatible with 3.0/3.5 etc...thanks to the OGL, while once Hasbro moves on, no one will be writing any new material for 4E thanks to their licensing.Actually, all game products should be. I can still use 1ed Dragon magazines in my campaign (3.X). I still get mileage out of 2ed stuffs. So what you meant to say is, 4ed is the shortest lived version in useful lifespan.Am I the only one who sees the irony there? I fully expect to get as much use out of my 4E books, particularly Gamma World and Dark Sun.
They had roughly 20 years of support material prior to the change over.
And there is a difference between pulling something out for nostalgia and the core of your primary game.
WoTC is creating a business model that will require them to create new systems regularly to get people to buy rule books. (The core business they make money off of)
Paizo is creating a business model that tries to have a set rule set for it's core players that works so that they will buy modules and adventure paths (the core business they make money off of.)
If you like learning new rules every five years or so, WoTC is for you.
If you like having new adventures and exploring settings, Paizo is for you.
So far Paizo's bet is paying off much better than Hasbro's.
|
|
Also, I'm just gonna say this even though it won't happen. For Christ's sake, before 5e launches can you give us an offline usable character builder again?
Don't really need to maintain it but have built in the last 4e updates you'll be using. Love having the books on my shelf but actually writing characters out is pretty rough...
Actually, all game products should be. I can still use 1ed Dragon magazines in my campaign (3.X). I still get mileage out of 2ed stuffs. So what you meant to say is, 4ed is the shortest lived version in useful lifespan.
Am I the only one who sees the irony there? I fully expect to get as much use out of my 4E books, particularly Gamma World and Dark Sun.
I wouldn't, since tons of 3PP are writing material for Pathfinder that is compatible with 3.0/3.5 etc...thanks to the OGL, while once Hasbro moves on, no one will be writing any new material for 4E thanks to their licensing.
You completely missed my point. Cfalcon said that he was still getting use out of his 1st edition and 2nd edition stuff. TSR hasn't supported those in years. I can get similar amounts of use out of 4E material.
They had roughly 20 years of support material prior to the change over.
And there is a difference between pulling something out for nostalgia and the core of your primary game.
Cfalcon was talking about taking an old, unsupported book and using it in a newer, supported rule system.
How long it was supported is of no relevance to what I said. I can use 4E material as inspiration in 5E or Pathfinder as easily as he can use 1E material in Pathfinder. In fact I have. Only about 10% of the adventures I've run in my Pathfinder campaign were written for Pathfinder.
WoTC is creating a business model that will require them to create new systems regularly to get people to buy rule books. (The core business they make money off of)
Paizo is creating a business model that tries to have a set rule set for it's core players that works so that they will buy modules and adventure paths (the core business they make money off of.)
If you like learning new rules every five years or so, WoTC is for you.
If you like having new adventures and exploring settings, Paizo is for you.
So far Paizo's bet is paying off much better than Hasbro's.
In 2011 I played (or ran) 4th Edition D&D, Dragon Age, Eclipse Phase, Traveller, Gamma World, Call of Cthulhu, Dogs in the Vineyard, Dark Heresy, Deathwatch, and Rules Cyclopedia D&D. Those are just the things I can come up with off the top of my head. All that while maintaining my 4 year long Pathfinder game.
If I only learn one new rule set a year I'd be bored. Trying new things is a great way to improve my gaming.
I disagree that WotC is just trying to change the rules to force you to buy books. They recognized that 4E wasn't as well received as they hoped, so they are trying again.
I'm happy when Paizo tries experimental things (Romance, Kingdoms, War, Caravans, etc.) I'm just as happy when Wizards tries new things (Themes, Gamma World, 4E in general.)
Overall, gaming is a relatively cheap hobby. I get my moneys worth out of all of it.
|
|
It would appear the WotC are flailing around looking for the rule-set which people go 'wow that's awesome'. The downside of this is by trying to keep everybody happy they are making what seems like Ciretose mentioned - a company that comes out with different rules every five years for the same game concept, i.e. D&D. Given I played a 1e campaign for 5 years, and a 2e campaign for just on 8 years not really appealing. Incremental changes are fine 1e --> 2e or 3e --> 3.5e, but massive changes like 3.5e --> 4e should be avoided every five years. I won't buy into the new game if this is the longer term strategy of WotC.
S.
|
|
I'm using Iconia A500 (the low end model) an it's running fine mostly. It's Android, so having two things open on one screen is not much an option, but it handles the PDFs pretty well (Adobe reader has problems with Land of the Linnom Kings map for some reason (no enough memory), but other readers can digest it better) and the battery can last through 6 or more hours of reading and occasional game. Flash animation and other fiddly bits are occasionally quie irksome, no Idea what it would be like to run an online builder on the tablet, but I'm a but sceptical. These things are not made with touchscreen or phone in mind, so the controlls can be frustrating even with larger screen. Oh, the wifi signal receiver is not as powerful as I'd like sometimes...
I don't have good reference on W500 tough (windows 7 is said to be slow on it and the battery is not lasting too long).
I was referring to the new 6120/6886, which runs windows, and can do all of what you mentioned and then some, as well as having 4 gigs of ram and dual touchscreens, and a bunch of other stuff that makes it look so good to me.
Downside is the pricetag of $1200, a 3(ish) hour battery life, and (if you care) that it weighs about 6.2 lbs.
|
Might be a repost, but I didn't read all 278 posts to check.
In December, Wizards of the Coast invited some retailers and reporters to playtest an early version of fifth edition rules at their headquarters in Renton, Washington. As part of that group, I teamed up with four other journalists to tackle a short fifth edition adventure, run by Mike Mearls.Everyone participating in the playtest agreed not to discuss specific rule changes, or what the game looks like in its current state. At present, it’s still a rough prototype and subject to change, particularly after Wizards hears from fans during the playtesting process. But there are a few things I can tell you.
First of all, and least surprising: It’s pretty great to have Mike Mearls be your Dungeon Master.Second, and most important: Wizards is on the right track.
I’m not a fan of fourth edition. I find the combat slow, the powers limiting, and the rules inhospitable to the kind of creative world-building, story-telling and problem-solving that make D&D great.
But so far, the fifth edition rules show promise. They’re simple without being stupid, and efficient without being shallow. Combat was quick and satisfying; we got through most of an adventure in just a few hours. And I get the sense that fifth edition will bring back some of the good complexity of previous versions, allowing players to create unique characters and new worlds.
Most of all, it feels like D&D, not a console video game, or an MMO, or a card game. That’s the first step towards bringing old players home.
“D&D is like the wardrobe people go through to get to Narnia,” says Mearls. “If you walk through and there’s a McDonalds, it’s like —’this isn’t Narnia.’”
So far, at least, the fifth edition rules ring true.
This seems to show a modular game system, so something that can appeal to everyone--just use what you want and toss what you don't.
It also hints at a return to "good" complexity, which I think 4e really (intentionally) lacked.
I'm definitely interested in seeing how this shapes up.
|
|
As much as I personally came to hate 4th Ed (after playing), I also recall all the bashing that WotC did to 3E when they wanted to push 4E. I'm just not sure if I buy they "self critiques" coming out now about how WotC conciders (at least part of) 4E a failure.
That being said, there is is very little I hope they do keep from 4E in 5th. Almost nothing mechanically, just some concepts like Skill Challenges, Monster design, and a small portion of Class balance. I honestly hope that they look at 2nd and 3rd E for mechanical rules sets, and possibly at 1st and 3rd for mood and game style.
I also hope that they decide against a small playtest amongst their supporters (as it seems is their goal in "open design"), and rather go out and get oppinions and suggestions from the ex-fans they seem to imply they want back. I also hope they take a good look at first White Wolf's V20 idea, and secondly Paizo's PF design scheme, and take a lot of notes to use in the design of 5E.
As much as I personally came to hate 4th Ed (after playing), I also recall all the bashing that WotC did to 3E when they wanted to push 4E.
Yeah.
All that bashing.
It was just brutal.
I think at one point they even called something that might have been part of 3e "less fun than it could have been."
The horror.
|
|
I also hope that they decide against a small playtest amongst their supporters (as it seems is their goal in "open design"), and rather go out and get oppinions and suggestions from the ex-fans they seem to imply they want back. I also hope they take a good look at first White Wolf's V20 idea, and secondly Paizo's PF design scheme, and take a lot of notes to use in the design of 5E.
From what I've inferred from signing up the their playtest and hearing how it will work, their playtest is not going to be much like V20; and more along the lines of how pathfinder does it for their current ongoing books.
The material sounds like its mostly already written, and they're mainly looking for feedback, as opposed to sitting down and asking people specifically what they want for X and then getting ideas from the results. Obviously you need to have "Something"; but I sincerely hope they're including everything in the playtest and not just select portions, or that if something is very unpopular from the "non-playtest pile" it gets reevaluated and put onto the playtest pile.
There's been a few times where something is up for playtest, but it relies on new mechanic X that is not part of the playtest. if new mechanic X is terrible, then the stuff youre making that relies on it is going to have problems from the beginning.
But we'll see what happens.
If I recall, V20 wasn't exactly a new edition. Fan's were kept apprised of progress, but feedback mostly consisted of asking: Which of the many Vampire things we already did do you want to go into our collector's book?
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
If I recall, V20 wasn't exactly a new edition. Fan's were kept apprised of progress, but feedback mostly consisted of asking: Which of the many Vampire things we already did do you want to go into our collector's book?
Nah, that was just the first week or so of the playtest, and the answer to that question was "Everything".
V20 is basically Vampire: the Masquerade 4th Edition. It's mechanically about as different (maybe a bit more) than the difference between 2nd and revised.
All the bloodlines are there, all the clans, all the disciplines for those clans, the "epic" disciplines, and (I think) All the Merits.
Pretty much all the mechanical stuff is in the book. It has alot less fluff than the originals did. All its missing are a few obscure abilities, and "combination disciplines"
And then as they worked on each section of the book (because they rebalanced and revised a great deal of the mechanics), they posted the mechanics they had come up with for that section for feedback, listened to comments, looked for problems, and made adjustments before going to the next section. They didnt please everyone with every decision (obviously) but they looked for feedback on all the decisions.
They got feedback on what skills to cut, what to add (they cut 2 and added 2 different ones in the end), got feedback on what were problems with the old mechanics on a variety of things like clans before revamping them, got feedback on the revamped versions and had people read and point out problems and potential problems, etc.
It was the best playtest I've ever seen because of that.
They started by asking people what was problematic about Vampire Revised before they started changing the rules, as well as asked for feedback on every section (or close to every section) of the book that got accomplished the day after the content was written, changed the stuff they wrote and showed the changes and got more feedback in a few cases, and a new section came out every 2-3 days (literally as they wrote it) until they had covered all the mechanics.
Additionally, the designers actually answered questions and explained why they did things to the people doing the commenting.
It's my favorite book of 2011, for sure; though the lack of a PoD copy, a month after it was supposed to come out, will bother people, for sure, since the book came out initially as Preorder Only, Limited Run.
|
|
And that's what I mean. Ideas from the fans about what to do and what to change, not here is the system, what about it do you not like or doesn't actually work. With Paizo's, the circumstances are a little different, as the base system was already there, and the PF core rules where more of an update rather than something completely new. Still, the idea of just creating the new system and then having it playtested the way it seems they are isn't really open design at all, and is basically too late for any real fan input.
I could be wrong, but that's what it all reads like to me.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
. . . It was the best playtest I've ever seen because of that. . .
They did much more than that though. They actually went through all version of VtM, (and you may notice how 2nd Ed, not revised the book really is). They went through a variaty of topics, from each Clan (like Class and/or Race in D&D) and looked at how they worked, how they have changed, which versions people liked or felt better about, how the real world and supernatural/fantasy genre has changed in the last 20 years, got ideas from the fans that they didn't ask about, and also looked at other settings that had rules that might work really well and switched them up. They invited a lot of discussion, and actively incorporated it into the design as they went, not after (or claimed it was too late).
I would actually say it was 2nd Ed Revised, but the fact that it was really open to the fans and actually felt like it was for the fans made all the difference, that I will probably buy M20 and W20, even though I am not really a fan of those lines so much. It will be interesting to see what ideas are discussed and then used.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
And that's what I mean. Ideas from the fans about what to do and what to change, not here is the system, what about it do you not like or doesn't actually work.
People offer that sort of thing unsolicited. It's really really easy to get people's opinions on what they think D&D should look like. You don't even have to ask. They'll just tell you. They will tell you on forums, on Twitter, in person, in emails, in panels, at conventions, in organized play, and anywhere else they think they might catch your ear. The designers are listening to this stuff all the time.
What they don't get is feedback on potential new systems, and that's what they're going to be looking for. That's what a playtest should be about.
Open playtesting does not equal open design.
|
|
Less what people think it should look like and more what people think worked about what editions, and other games. We already saw what WotC did with a limited open playtest and designing what they thought people wanted in 4E. Like it or not, isn't the issue, and that isn't a bash at 4E, just saying we have already seen that from WotC.
At the same time, we can also see how WW and Paizo handled it, and how the audiences handled it, (both fan and new gamers), and can also both see which was both more liked and popular.
However, I agree that Open playtest is not the same as open design, and the point I am trying to make is that the announcements come off as suggesting it will be open design, but what is actually being said is that it will be an open playtest, limited to internal, then much later a select group of fans, and lastly (maybe) others.
I'm talking about how much push there was to show how bad 3E was and how much better 4E was/would be/turned out, covering up all the mistakes and blah blah blah. It happened both before and after 4e was out.
I'd really like to see some evidence of what you're claiming here. Some direct quotes from WotC would be nice.
Right now it looks like you're simply passing off internet overreaction as fact.
|
That's less and less the case, though. Three years ago, I would have been in your same boat. I now have internet access no matter where I go, cabin-in-the-woods notwithstanding. Mobile broadband is at a point where you can have reliable, unrestricted internet access pretty much anywhere you're going to reasonably find yourself.
I thought D&D had to be played inside steam tunnels?
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I'm talking about how much push there was to show how bad 3E was and how much better 4E was/would be/turned out, covering up all the mistakes and blah blah blah. It happened both before and after 4e was out.I'd really like to see some evidence of what you're claiming here. Some direct quotes from WotC would be nice.
Right now it looks like you're simply passing off internet overreaction as fact.
I can remember clearly the 4E preview books, like the races preview, saying things along the lines of, "The halfling design didn't make any sense in 3E, and we've made our new halflings much cooler." (This is NOT an example of an actual quote, just a "something like"). I don't have the 4E preview books because after reading stuff like that, I decided not to buy them, but maybe someone who has copies could oblige.
I distinctly recall a LOT of early 4E marketing boiling down to, "You don't want to play 3.x anymore; it's icky and 4E is much better." And I remember reading these things directly from the 4E marketing materials, not Internet discussion (I tried to stay out of 4E discussions after awhile because they got so ugly, so fast). I just remember reading the 4E marketing stuff written by WotC and thinking, "Damn, why are they bashing my hobby so much? This isn't selling the new system to me at all."
I don't know what Beckett's got, but if I can manage to find a quote from way back in 2007-8, I'll try, but I will back up that that was going on. Hard to find stuff on the Internet that "old," unfortunately.
Note this has nothing to do with the 4E system, just the early marketing efforts.
I'm talking about how much push there was to show how bad 3E was and how much better 4E was/would be/turned out, covering up all the mistakes and blah blah blah. It happened both before and after 4e was out.I'd really like to see some evidence of what you're claiming here. Some direct quotes from WotC would be nice.
Right now it looks like you're simply passing off internet overreaction as fact.
I can remember clearly the 4E preview books, like the races preview, saying things along the lines of, "The halfling design didn't make any sense in 3E, and we've made our new halflings much cooler." (This is NOT an example of an actual quote, just a "something like"). I don't have the 4E preview books because after reading stuff like that, I decided not to buy them, but maybe someone who has copies could oblige.
I distinctly recall a LOT of early 4E marketing boiling down to, "You don't want to play 3.x anymore; it's icky and 4E is much better." And I remember reading these things directly from the 4E marketing materials, not Internet discussion (I tried to stay out of 4E discussions after awhile because they got so ugly, so fast). I just remember reading the 4E marketing stuff written by WotC and thinking, "Damn, why are they bashing my hobby so much? This isn't selling the new system to me at all."
I don't know what Beckett's got, but if I can manage to find a quote from way back in 2007-8, I'll try, but I will back up that that was going on. Hard to find stuff on the Internet that "old," unfortunately.
Note this has nothing to do with the 4E system, just the early marketing efforts.
We've dealt with this same issue on these forums before - people claim that they "very distinctly" recall WotC bashing 3e right before 4e's release, and then are never able to produce evidence of that. Keep in mind that we were there, too, and we played 3.5 as well. I don't remember any bashing. I remember WotC saying things like, "3.5 was a great system, but we didn't think this was as fun as it could be so we changed it." That's about as brutal as it got. Some people I guess didn't like the fact that WotC could criticize something it published, and overreacted (like they do), and now that overreaction has sort of seeped into the collective consciousness of those who were looking for reasons to justify their departure from D&D.
|
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
|
Have you looked at KQ? They've some AGE supliments. I've picked up both boxed sets more for Thedas information than the game system.I have an "Additional Design" credit in the Midgard Age Bestiary. ;)
I love Open Design, but I could still use more monsters for my upcoming Dragon Age Kingmaker game set in Midgard. I suspect I'll have a bunch of monsters already converted by the time they're ready for Midgard Age Bestiary Vol 2.
I did not know that. *blushes* Just trying to pimp people's work. :-)
|
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
|
It's my favorite book of 2011, for sure; though the lack of a PoD copy, a month after it was supposed to come out, will bother people, for sure, since the book came out initially as Preorder Only, Limited Run.
Waiting for my bonus check to see a) if I can afford a copy and b) which POD copy I can afford.
I did not know that. *blushes* Just trying to pimp people's work. :-)Have you looked at KQ? They've some AGE supliments. I've picked up both boxed sets more for Thedas information than the game system.I have an "Additional Design" credit in the Midgard Age Bestiary. ;)
I love Open Design, but I could still use more monsters for my upcoming Dragon Age Kingmaker game set in Midgard. I suspect I'll have a bunch of monsters already converted by the time they're ready for Midgard Age Bestiary Vol 2.
No problem. Very little reason to know that Deinol is just an alias for Jesse Butler. My part was fairly small, Josh Jarman did all the hard work. I guess I should make an alias to use my real name when I want to pretend I'm a freelancer. I've not done a lot of work, just been an enthusiastic patron for nearly every Open Design project since Tales of Zobeck.
Waiting for my bonus check to see a) if I can afford a copy and b) which POD copy I can afford.It's my favorite book of 2011, for sure; though the lack of a PoD copy, a month after it was supposed to come out, will bother people, for sure, since the book came out initially as Preorder Only, Limited Run.
I thought I saw an announcement on G+ that the PoD for V20 went live this week. Haven't checked the price because I know I'm not allowed to splurge until after tax time.
What's V20?
Vampire the Maquerade: 20th Anniversary Edition.
