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Rules: Must have at least 50% of your build as some kind of rogue type. Bard does count for this purpose, as does the Alchemist and Rangers and obviously ninjas.
You have 1 rnd, 2 if you can justify surviving to a 2nd round.
Limit is 20th level abilities and wealth. You can not pay a caster to kill, harm, or otherwise debilitate AM Barbarian. Permanent or contingent spell are negated, unless you are able to provide for it yourself.
I'm really looking for Max damage, but if you find alternatives to taking him out more easily, well thats what a rogue would do, wouldn't he?
Rogue 10/ Assassin 10.
Max out the rogues Intelligence score, use big intelligence buffing items, and a wand of Fox's cunning.
Major Magic/Wand True Strike. Hide in plain sight, then use a Death Attack.
It will hit. Then you're int is so high that his chance of passing the Will save is only 5%.
Rinse repeat.
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Rogue 10/ Assassin 10.
Max out the rogues Intelligence score, use big intelligence buffing items, and a wand of Fox's cunning.
Major Magic/Wand True Strike. Hide in plain sight, then use a Death Attack.
It will hit. Then you're int is so high that his chance of passing the Will save is only 5%.
Rinse repeat.
My only problem is the time your taking. So far I see 2-3 rounds in combat, and very likely he has already made you a pincushin at this point. I don't doubt the death attack would work, but don't you have to study your target for like 3 rnds first?
It will hit. Then you're int is so high that his chance of passing the Will save is only 5%.
It is a Fortitude save, not a Will save. Your base Death Save DC is going to be 20+Int. Maxing your Int, you'll start with a 20. 5 level ups, 5 inherent bonuses, and a +6 item is the best you can do under normal circumstances (i.e. without obscure spells). And Fox's Cunning is an enhancement bonus, so it doesn't stack with the +Int items.
That makes your Intelligence score 36, for a +18. The death save, then, is against DC: 38.
AM BARBARIAN has a base save of +12. He surely started with at least a 14 Con, and probably started with 16. He will surely get a +5 inherent bonus and a +6 item, so that's an average of 26, for a +8 modifier. and part of AM BARBARIAN's thing is raising saves, so he definitely has Great Fortitude (+2) and a +5 Cloak of Resistance. That gives him a save of +27, meaning he makes the save on an 11. That's a 50% chance.
And since I'm not intricately familiar with AM BARBARIAN, there's probably something else I'm missing from his build that will help here. For example, if he has Improved Great Fortitude, he can reroll, so you only have a 25% chance to kill him.
Now, I will agree that this is a damn good way considering how daunting the task is, but it's still only a 50/50 at best.
I still say the best choice is to just go for level 1. With a Greatsword (via the Swashbuckler archetype) and maxed Strength, you will kill an AM BARBARIAN with 18 Con with a single average swing.
My only problem is the time your taking. So far I see 2-3 rounds in combat, and very likely he has already made you a pincushin at this point. I don't doubt the death attack would work, but don't you have to study your target for like 3 rnds first?
Once per day, you can Death Attack without studying. But True Strike does still take time. I think you'd need an awfully high Bluff or Stealth to do this without AM BARBARIAN killing you for the heck of it.
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As far as I know there is nothing that says the 3 rounds of study have to be done while engaged in combat in order for the death attack to be effective.
So prior to any combat the Assassin/Rogue studies the AM Barbarian for 3 rounds then launches his death attack.
This would either be in the surprise round or the 1st round of combat.
SO yeah it looks like Iced2k just took him out in 1 round.
Also Note that Am Barbarian is not to concerned with armor bonus. As such, the best thing for Am Barbarian to enchant on his armor is Fortification as this cuts down on the spikey nature of his HP loss. Between the negation chance and the high Fort save this may not work out as well as you hope.
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^ Bear in mind I have no idea what an AM Barbarian is - I presume it's an optimized build but know nothing about.
My comment was made to point out that the 3 rounds of study required for a death attack need not be made while in combat... The player of an Assassin who was in an old party of mine always used it prior to combat starting or out of combat as it were.
^ Bear in mind I have no idea what an AM Barbarian is - I presume it's an optimized build but know nothing about.
Optimized is one way of saying it.
Redifining the primary requirement for acting in combat from Initiative to "Do you have an effective +80 Perception? If not, I win!" is another.
^ Can someone post alink to this AM build?
I must admit Krispy, you've piqued my interest!
I'd recomend searching the Advice Archives. The actual full build has not been posted, but unlike most of these things, it is at the stage of needing to just polish out equipment and the like.
And be prepared for dozens of pages of... discussion :)
Good point on the Fort save. I missed that. But I still think death attack is the best way to take out the Barbarian.
Can anyone think of any way to get that int up? Just another 5 points would be enough to stack the odds seriously in our favour.
How about a level of Mind Chemist for a Cognatogen? Would that stack?
Another option would be Rogue 5/Master Spy 5/Assassin 10
The Master spy and Assassin death attacks stack. Giving us another +5 to the for save.
Coupled with the cognatogen, the Barbarian needs to roll a 18 on the dice to avoid death. That's pretty good odds.
If it fails, Hide in plain sight again, wait 12 hours and repeat.
If no build exists there is no character. AM BARBARIAN is like the boogeyman. The idea is scary but no matter how hard I look under my bed or in my closet it's not there.
Good point on the Fort save. I missed that. But I still think death attack is the best way to take out the Barbarian.
Can anyone think of any way to get that int up? Just another 5 points would be enough to stack the odds seriously in our favour.
How about a level of Mind Chemist for a Cognatogen? Would that stack?
It would.
Aging also could increase Intelligence.
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^ Can someone post alink to this AM build?
I must admit Krispy, you've piqued my interest!
I'd recomend searching the Advice Archives. The actual full build has not been posted, but unlike most of these things, it is at the stage of needing to just polish out equipment and the like.
And be prepared for dozens of pages of... discussion :)
I found the thread - it's huge! I only the read the first page...
I assume from the comments that the build uses Pounce - but isn't Pounce a monster feat/special attack? How does a character gain it and how does it work with a lance on a charge???Have to say I agree with Buri - this seems like some Keyser Soze type build that doesn't really exist... And if he does exist he's probably crippled if you impose either RAW or RAI or common sense...
BY the way what does the AM stand for? Anti-Magic?
Then don't stealth. Use disguise and bluff to pretend to be his mate. Then kill him.
Rogue 10th/Witch 10th
1. Cast Improved Invis
2. Sneak up
3. User Slumber Hex
4. Use Misfortune Hex
5. Coup de Grace
Show me how AM Baba can make 2 Fort saves at 40+ DC!!
Breiti
What do I win?
Halfling ninja with invisible blade focussing on ranged combat possessing some sniper goggles, (skill focus stealth and hellcat stealth not really necessary when invisible, but still not bad) can just snipe him from out of his range or even inside. Perhaps kill the mount first.
Focussing on DEX and CHA, you can let him make a fortitude save with assasinate too. only needs one round of studying.
Also shadow strike feat could possibly forego fortification armor.
If you use a halfling slingstaff, bludgeoner, sap adept and sap master you can knock out his mount under him and let him fall from the sky.
Also poison use is nice. Slip it in his food.
You can also use disguise etc to come to him.
If all that doesnt work, take the master craftsman feat, create wondrous item and create something that imprisons him or whatever.
This is too easy, all it takes is a 20th level Ranger. Strength of 26 (20+ Belt), Dexterity of 22 (16+ Belt), Maxed out favored enemy of your choice (Instant Enemy makes it a moot point what the foe is), +5 Long Composite bow (26 Strength) of speed, +5 Falcion of Speed, Greater Bracers of Archery, +5 Mithral Breastplate, +5 Ring of Protection, +5 Amulet of Natural Armor, +5 Cloak of Resistance, Belt of Physical Perfection +6, Helm of Brilliance, Ring of Invisibility, and Winged Boots. This leaves lots cash left over.
Since the challenge was it had to be a roguish type I assume the character can prepare. Cast the following spells. Aspect of the Falcon, Bow Spirit, Gravity Bow, Lead Blades, and Instant Enemy.
The Ranger is a switch hitter with Rapid Shot, Many Shot, Improved Precise Shot and Far shot for bonus feats. Also has Power Attack, Improved Critical (Falcon), Quick Draw, Deadly Aim, and Favored Defense. This also leaves about 5 left.
The Ranger ambushes the Barbarian, and declares him his Quarry. He starts out by unleashing 6 shots at +40/+40/+40/+40/+35/+30/+25 for 2d6+26+1d6 of flame. If the first one hits he is actually hit twice. The chance to Critical is 19-20 with a x3 Multiplier and all threats automatically confirm. Also his Bow Spirit is also firing but slightly only 5 times and for less damage. Once the surprise round is up he does it again.
Since he is flying the Barbarian can't even get near him, but if he does then he is attacked with the Falchion doing even more damage and only one less attack at -1 off his chance to hit. The Falchion's chance to critical is 15-20 and again automatic confirmation, but only x2 damage.
The swashbuckler build has absolutely no chance of 1 shotting him unless you're hoping to trigger death from massive damage, which is unlikely since it requires dealing half his hp in damage in a single attack (and is an optional rule at that) and grants a fortitude save.
Yes it does. He said I could pick the level. I pick level 1. A level 1 Barbarian with 18 Con that uses the Human favored bonus for Superstition, which AM BARBARIAN would be doing has 16 HP.
A Swashbuckling Rogue with a Greatsword and 18 Strength deals 3d6+6 (average 16.5) damage with a sneak attack. That kills AM BARBARIAN with an average hit.
Rogue 10th/Witch 10th
1. Cast Improved Invis
2. Sneak up
3. User Slumber Hex
4. Use Misfortune Hex
5. Coup de GraceShow me how AM Baba can make 2 Fort saves at 40+ DC!!
Breiti
Even if you could sneak up on his Blindsensing mount, AM BARBARIAN uses Superstition and the human favored class bonus to skyrocket the numbers. You would never land either Slumber Hex or Misfortune Hex on him.
Oh, and for the one who asked, "AM BARBARIAN" probably should mean anti-magic, but actually just means "bad speaking am funny for smashy character."
Since he is flying the Barbarian can't even get near him
AM BARBARIAN has a flying mount.
Another possibility: Ninja 20. Hidden Master makes you "undetectable," which I would guess includes Scent. Feint to get Sneak Attack (AM doesn't buff Sense Motive, does he?), then use all the tricks from the other Rogue/Barbarian thread to boost your defense and beat him down. The -10 ability score penalties from Hidden Master just make it sweeter.
He said Rangers count as being a "rogue type" build. Thus, a 20 level Ranger is legit.
Depends where you're fighting. A featureless plain makes AM a lot scary than if he can't even close on you. Say, a hafling sniper in crowded city streets (cover everywhere!) or on the rooftops. Rogues are the class that use terrain to its maximum, both for forcing enemies to climb/make acrobatics checks and become flatfooted or to outrun them (at least, when they cant flank or otherwise have somebody else draw the attention while they snipe.)
Unfortunately, this means they eat up a lot of actions, but faced with a single opponents (with no allies time to waste) you can just try to outmanuever him and take potshots. AM's lance is useless if his mount cant climb.
just my two cents. Crowds are scary.
This is too easy, all it takes is a 20th level Ranger. Strength of 26 (20+ Belt), Dexterity of 22 (16+ Belt), Maxed out favored enemy of your choice (Instant Enemy makes it a moot point what the foe is), +5 Long Composite bow (26 Strength) of speed, +5 Falcion of Speed, Greater Bracers of Archery, +5 Mithral Breastplate, +5 Ring of Protection, +5 Amulet of Natural Armor, +5 Cloak of Resistance, Belt of Physical Perfection +6, Helm of Brilliance, Ring of Invisibility, and Winged Boots. This leaves lots cash left over.
Since the challenge was it had to be a roguish type I assume the character can prepare. Cast the following spells. Aspect of the Falcon, Bow Spirit, Gravity Bow, Lead Blades, and Instant Enemy.
The Ranger is a switch hitter with Rapid Shot, Many Shot, Improved Precise Shot and Far shot for bonus feats. Also has Power Attack, Improved Critical (Falcon), Quick Draw, Deadly Aim, and Favored Defense. This also leaves about 5 left.
The Ranger ambushes the Barbarian, and declares him his Quarry. He starts out by unleashing 6 shots at +40/+40/+40/+40/+35/+30/+25 for 2d6+26+1d6 of flame. If the first one hits he is actually hit twice. The chance to Critical is 19-20 with a x3 Multiplier and all threats automatically confirm. Also his Bow Spirit is also firing but slightly only 5 times and for less damage. Once the surprise round is up he does it again.
Since he is flying the Barbarian can't even get near him, but if he does then he is attacked with the Falchion doing even more damage and only one less attack at -1 off his chance to hit. The Falchion's chance to critical is 15-20 and again automatic confirmation, but only x2 damage.
AM has a flying mount named Batty Bat, with an 800 ft. charge range and the perception to make it a threat. So assume a minus 8 on all of your attack roles. Each arrow is affected by a DR of 10, I'm pretty sure the flaming is negated entirely, and crit probably won't come into play. We can assume 23pts of damage per arrow for 9 or 10 arrows which is 230 damage. If you get lucky. I'm fairly sure he survives that. Which puts you in a coin flip scenerio at best.
A sneaky druid with the leadership ability.
Another possibility: Ninja 20. Hidden Master makes you "undetectable," which I would guess includes Scent. Feint to get Sneak Attack (AM doesn't buff Sense Motive, does he?), then use all the tricks from the other Rogue/Barbarian thread to boost your defense and beat him down. The -10 ability score penalties from Hidden Master just make it sweeter.
Don't forget that Barbarians are pretty much sneak attack proof unless you're four levels higher than them. At level 20, noone is sneaking AM.
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Rogue 1/GM 1
Automatically wins initiative. Doesn't allow the absurdity called "ragelancepounce".
Don't forget that Barbarians are pretty much sneak attack proof unless you're four levels higher than them. At level 20, noone is sneaking AM.
At 2nd level, a barbarian gains the ability to react to danger before her senses would normally allow her to do so. She cannot be caught flat-footed, nor does she lose her Dex bonus to AC if the attacker is invisible. She still loses her Dexterity bonus to Armor Class if immobilized. A barbarian with this ability can still lose her Dexterity bonus to Armor Class if an opponent successfully uses the feint action against her.
Another possibility: Ninja 20. Hidden Master makes you "undetectable," which I would guess includes Scent. Feint to get Sneak Attack (AM doesn't buff Sense Motive, does he?), then use all the tricks from the other Rogue/Barbarian thread to boost your defense and beat him down. The -10 ability score penalties from Hidden Master just make it sweeter.
You still have to deal with the armor Fortification.
If you're undetectable how can you feint to gain sneak attack damage? You either have to reveal yourself in which case you're RAGELANCEPOUNCED 50% of the time best case or you're invisible in which case you can't catch him flat footed. Besides, after feinting you get one attack with a bonus of 60 damage max. I'm not seeing sneak attack being the answer.
However clustered shot might give the archer ranger a better chance. Mitigating the DR on each arrow would be huge...
You still have to deal with the armor Fortification.
Good point. I forgot about that. You still might be able to grind him down, since a sneak attack or two a round will still make it in (and the attacks still do SOME damage on their own). Between invisibly shifting around, 50% miss chance, Offensive Defense, and the Hidden Master debuff I'd think the Ninja would still last long enough to win, so long as AM BARBARIAN didn't just get bored and walk away first.
I'll say it again, AM Barbarian does not have uncanny dodge nor improved uncanny dodge."
Well, that saves me a whole feinting argument. Hidden Master and two-weapon fighting with shurikens it is, then!
Although, for the record, you can still Feint while invisible as far as I know and their are several paths to combining feints and full attacks (Improved Two-Weapon Feint and Moonlight Stalker Feint+Greater Feint come to mind).
AM has a flying mount named Batty Bat, with an 800 ft. charge range and the perception to make it a threat. So assume a minus 8 on all of your attack roles. Each arrow is affected by a DR of 10, I'm pretty sure the flaming is negated entirely, and crit probably won't come into play. We can assume 23pts of...This is too easy, all it takes is a 20th level Ranger. Strength of 26 (20+ Belt), Dexterity of 22 (16+ Belt), Maxed out favored enemy of your choice (Instant Enemy makes it a moot point what the foe is), +5 Long Composite bow (26 Strength) of speed, +5 Falcion of Speed, Greater Bracers of Archery, +5 Mithral Breastplate, +5 Ring of Protection, +5 Amulet of Natural Armor, +5 Cloak of Resistance, Belt of Physical Perfection +6, Helm of Brilliance, Ring of Invisibility, and Winged Boots. This leaves lots cash left over.
Since the challenge was it had to be a roguish type I assume the character can prepare. Cast the following spells. Aspect of the Falcon, Bow Spirit, Gravity Bow, Lead Blades, and Instant Enemy.
The Ranger is a switch hitter with Rapid Shot, Many Shot, Improved Precise Shot and Far shot for bonus feats. Also has Power Attack, Improved Critical (Falcon), Quick Draw, Deadly Aim, and Favored Defense. This also leaves about 5 left.
The Ranger ambushes the Barbarian, and declares him his Quarry. He starts out by unleashing 6 shots at +40/+40/+40/+40/+35/+30/+25 for 2d6+26+1d6 of flame. If the first one hits he is actually hit twice. The chance to Critical is 19-20 with a x3 Multiplier and all threats automatically confirm. Also his Bow Spirit is also firing but slightly only 5 times and for less damage. Once the surprise round is up he does it again.
Since he is flying the Barbarian can't even get near him, but if he does then he is attacked with the Falchion doing even more damage and only one less attack at -1 off his chance to hit. The Falchion's chance to critical is 15-20 and again automatic confirmation, but only x2 damage.
Add Bane Arrows to increase the damage to 4d6+26 and that increases the damage to 30 per shot after DR. Also start out at maximum range for a long bow which is 1100 feet and it will take the AM Barbarian 2 rounds to reach him. And if he is on a flying mount target the mount which will probably have less than 600 HP.
As far as locating the Ranger there is going to be a -110 on the roll for range penalty. The Ranger has Far Shot so is only taking a -10 to hit. Figure the Ranger has maxed out stealth which should give him a stealth roll of +79, (20 +6 Dex, +3 Class Skill, +40 Invisibility, +10 Favored Terrain), His Perception roll will be at +91 (20 +5 Wisdom (Head Band), +3 Class skill, +3 Aspect of the Falcon, +30 Acute Senses, +10 Favored Enemy, +10 Favored Terrain). May have to attack at only 910 feet but still going to give 2 full rounds of attack.
Not sure why you are assuming the flaming is automatically negated, but having a flame resistance of 10 or more is not that uncommon so I will not argue it. but that does mean that I the Helm of Brilliance is not needed.
I'll say it again, AM Barbarian does not have uncanny dodge nor improved uncanny dodge.
What takes that class ability away? I've missed it.
So the ranger, or any archer properly built has a very strong chance. AM has his weaknessess. I wonder if Trinam is reading this. And out of personal (morbid) curiosity how could AM apply a wind wall effect or something else to prevent them being a problem?
The hidden master ability and feinting still doesn't fit the bill. Am is flying, at speeds that out menuever you, and feint still reduses you to one attack a round. It's just not enough damage, and with only a 50% miss chance you're still taking 320 points of damage a round (less if you blast his strength, but I doubt you're going to get the shot in more than once with a 430ft fly-by attack range).
Invulnerable rager takes away uncanny dodge and improved uncanny dodge.
Ah. Thank you. This does make the sneak attack better. Now, with the right build, you could take AMs strength down to negligable with the horrible ninja master trick. Except for the pesky fortification issue, which still gives you an average of one sneak in round one, pissing him off and leaving you pasted.
Halfling Rogue 20
TWF ITWF, Rapid shot, flurry of stars, haste potion= 9 Shuriken
Clustered shot to overcome DR and Hunter's surprise to get sneak no matter what for one round. Deadly Aim for more damage. Crippling Strike for 2 points of Strength damage per hit.
+5 AM Bane Shuriken. Deathblade poison for extra fun
+15 BAB +7 Enhancement, +1 Weapon Focus, +13 Dex, +1 size, -6 # of Attacks, +1 cracked pale green prism Ioun Stone, -4 DA = +28/+28/+28/+28/+28/+28/+23/+23/+18
If all hit, 108d6+144 damage, 18 Str damage, Fort save 36 or d3 Con damage as well. That should do it.