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What combination of classes do you feel makes the best 4 to 6 person party?
Judging on these 7 categories, on a scale of 1 to 10:
1) Level progression - Ability to work as a party through lv 1 to 20
2) Combat potential - How well they do in combat. Ability to take on foes
3) Durability/Survivability - Able to withstand attacks, spells, overcome traps, environmental effects like pitfalls, deserts, flooding, cold...etc
4) Skills - Knowledge, Tracking, Disable Traps...
5) NPC interactions - aka diplomacy, able to have a party face and influence NPCs.
6) Versatility - Able to adapt to different situations
7) Extra Skills - Like Enchanting, Making potions, Ability to use a range of weapon/armor and other magical items, when found.
Limits:
- 1 of each class only (Including Archetypes)
- 20 point buy
- Leveling from lv 1 to 20
- Core Races only
- 2 traits each
- no 3.5 feats/power...etc
So what combination do you think is the best?
AMBARBARIAN build barbarian (muscle)
Urban Ranger (muscle/traps)
Cleric (muscle/Heal) - Possibly oracle with healing domain.
"god"Wizard Conjurer/teleport school (incidentals and general badassery)
It's not specific, but I think it woudl work out well.
The ideal optimized party, imho, is actually a 5 player group consisting of Fighter, Battle Cleric, Rogue, Bard, and Wizard. However, in a 4 player group, I would go with Paladin, Urban Ranger, Battle Cleric, and Wizard. This would offer a similiar level of survivability and flexibility with very strong dpr potential.
Yes there are other combinations which have more dpr, or more durability, and so forth. However, for versatility, adaptability and flexibility the aforementioned are tough to beat.
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The party I'm DMing seems pretty optimal:
--Rogue (stealth, skills, traps, sneak attack damage, and NPC interactions)
--Paladin (muscle [especially when he gets his paladin mount], diplomacy, durability [paladin's aura and divine grace], and healing [lay on hands as a swift action to himself saves the bard and oracle a lot of time])
--Bard with the Magician archetype (buffs, item crafting, counterspells, and a little healing)
--Oracle with the Ancestor mystery and Deaf curse (stealth, backup muscle [when he has his ancestral blade and armor revelations up], inflict wounds and other damaging spells, a little healing)
They're versatile, because they can go from stealth mode (using the rogue and bard's Stealth and Invisibility, and the oracle's Silent Spells, and with the bard casting Silence on the paladin) to full-on combat (performing bard, paladin smiting evil and summoning horse, rogue with flanking, and oracle with his revelations) in less than 1 round. They all have high Charsima, which makes them great at interacting with NPCs. The rogue and bard are great spies and infiltrators, and the paladin is a surprisingly good tracker.
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The ideal optimized party, imho, is actually a 5 player group consisting of Fighter, Battle Cleric, Rogue, Bard, and Wizard. However, in a 4 player group, I would go with Paladin, Urban Ranger, Battle Cleric, and Wizard. This would offer a similiar level of survivability and flexibility with very strong dpr potential.
Yes there are other combinations which have more dpr, or more durability, and so forth. However, for versatility, adaptability and flexibility the aforementioned are tough to beat.
Changed topic to 4 to 6. You did point out that parties can be bigger.
Just curious why a Battle Cleric instead of a Support Cleric? Is it because of the Bard?
Stupid 1 of each class limitation...
Master Summoner
Bard making use of Versatile Performance
Cleric built for fighting
Wizard
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Stupid 1 of each class limitation...
Master Summoner
Bard making use of Versatile Performance
Cleric built for fighting
Wizard
LOL!!!
No Master Summoner, Master Summoner, Master Summoner, Master Summoner for you Cheapy!
Btw... Is 4 Summoner Clerics with Scared Summon just as good as 4 Master Summoner?
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Playing in PFS, I've encountered lots of different party make-ups and seen them all work. I've seen the traditional "Fighter, Wizard, Rogue, Cleric" group (sometimes even with a bard as the fifth).
I've also seen success with:
• Ranger, Paladin, Sorcerer, Monk, Monk, Monk
• Paladin (2H), Barbarian (2H), Fighter (2H), Rogue
• Cavalier, Ranger, Rogue, Rogue, Ninja
• Lv1 Bard, Lv1 Rogue, Lv1 Rogue, Lv2 Wizard, Lv2 Cleric, Lv5 Fighter (playing in subtier 3-4, and the Lv1's were all brand-new characters)
I think party composition is a much smaller factor for success in Pathfinder than a lot of people realize.
They get close, but due to not having the minutes per level, nor the free uses, they do fall short by quite a bit, IMO.
An evangelist cleric with Sacred Summons on the other hand...that guy is nasty, and due to the bardic performances, is a lot closer to the master summoner, IMO. Augment Summons, Sacred Summons, Superior Summons, Inspire Courage, and Discordant Voice make for a very nasty combination. By the time it clicks (level 11), you'll have +2 to hit on most attacks due to augment, +3 to hit and damage from Inspire Courage (which you can do as a move action), and +1d6 sonic damage to all your summons. That's wonderful.
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A group of 4 to 6 people that are clever, creative, and cooperative.
I'd say:
Sorcerer (summon focused)
Summoner
Wizard (conjurer)
Bard (archer)
Paladin (archer)
Cleric
This would give you a full battle field of summons all buffed to the gills with bardsong and other goodies from the wizard/bard/cleric and exceptionally good summoner lists. The paladin and cleric using channeling to heal will make the monsters harder to get rid of. Really the premise here is the use of summons to step into combat while the real party members preserve themselves in the back row.
The ideal optimized party, imho, is actually a 5 player group consisting of Fighter, Battle Cleric, Rogue, Bard, and Wizard. However, in a 4 player group, I would go with Paladin, Urban Ranger, Battle Cleric, and Wizard. This would offer a similiar level of survivability and flexibility with very strong dpr potential.
Yes there are other combinations which have more dpr, or more durability, and so forth. However, for versatility, adaptability and flexibility the aforementioned are tough to beat.
Changed topic to 4 to 6. You did point out that parties can be bigger.
Just curious why a Battle Cleric instead of a Support Cleric? Is it because of the Bard?
Yes, the synergy with the bard is exceptional and with the current state of the game a cleric brings more to the party when he can contribute to combat beyond healing and buffing. Survival is optimized by the cleric adding to dpr in combat and then healing out of combat as in combat healing is insufficient to keep up with damage. Hence, it makes more sense to kill faster then heal outside of combat. Furthermore, a typical battle cleric is more than capable of supplying sufficient healing, especially when augmented by the bard.
A group of 4 to 6 people that are clever, creative, and cooperative.
A lot of truth in this, beyond that it comes down to preference.
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This is the Party I just gamed with last night and we ROLLED over 2 Dragons in one encounter and 2 beared devils + 2 advanced beared devils + 2 Zombie wvyrens (I probably mispelled that). I think this is a perfect group make up if for no other reason than for the first time in a long time I personally didn't feel I had to have the perfectly rounded character to survive. The whole party actually pulled together for this, so it ended up great.
Party is 9th level.
Fighter 9, Arcane Archer 2/Wizard 1/Fighter 6, Cleric 9, Sorceror 9, Rogue 9, and my arcane caster(sor 1/wiz 4/pathfinder savant 3/cyphermage 1).
The Frontline fighter handled melee beautifully. Using a scythe as his main, crit a beared devil for 104+8d4. Didn't even bother with rolling the d4s as that dropped him.
The Archer injured the Huge Blue dragon enough that it had to land and try to face us in melee, where it sucumbed to 1 hit from the Fighter and 1 Fireball.
The Sorceror tried to take on the smaller black dragon with scorching rays the which enraged it to attack him in melee. It came in with a flying charge ready to bite the Sorceror's head off, only to be crit on a invisibly sneak attack by the rogue and dropped dead right in front of the Sorceror. The Soreceror looked to the rogue "I was bait?!" The rogue laughed "Yep, you were bait. Good job."
The cleric handle healing beautifully with channels and buffing with Communal Energy Resistance.
The group of the bearded devils with the Zombie Wvyrens was nearly simularly decimated. 2 electricity based fireballs tore into the room scouring the advanced bearded devils and decimated the 2 Zombie Wyvrens before they could act. Fighter stepped in the first round and cleaved the 2 smaller bearded devils, killing both instantly, and in the 2nd round downed one of the advanced bearded. The Arcane Archer played clean up and dropped the final bearded devil. 2 rounds of combat.
This to me is an ideal team. Everyone knew their role and worked together. My ideal team would've had more healers to compensate for the larger group, but all in all this party did a great job of ending combats and buffing when able that healing wasn't really required.
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If I was going to make a optimized group.
Paladin (two handed weapon)
Bard (standard, combat focused)
Oracle of Battle (Reach weapon specialized)
Ranger/Rogue (6/14 split, switch hitter)
Witch (Hedge Witch)
The run down.
1) Level progression - Ability to work as a party through lv 1 to 20
This has more to do with individual builds then any thing else. The group as a hole will even it out if there characters are made well.
2) Combat potential - How well they do in combat. Ability to take on foes
4 of the 5 characters are built for melee combat, 1 for range combat, and 1 for crowd control. With the bard they will all be good at range combat just the switch hitting ranger will be better.
3) Durability/Survivability - Able to withstand attacks, spells, overcome traps, environmental effects like pitfalls, deserts, flooding, cold...etc
The Witch and the oracle can cover special events. And to some extent the ranger/rogue, and Bard. Make sure every one has Swap Place tactical feet. This will let the other members of the party provide allot of direct protection to the other party members. By trading places with them in there movement. Making it much easy to remove the characters from direct combat. And all of them can use cure light wounds wands.
4) Skills - Knowledge, Tracking, Disable Traps...
Ranger/Rogue covers traps, tracking, disable device. Bard covers party face and all knowledge skills. Paladin and Oracle can play back up party face if needed.
5) NPC interactions - aka diplomacy, able to have a party face and influence NPCs.
See #4. 4&5 Should be one because there both skill questions.
6) Versatility - Able to adapt to different situations
4 melee, 1 range, 2 skill monkeys, 3 party face, 1 full divine caster, 1 1/4 divine caster, 1 arcane caster, 1 3/4 arcane caster,
7) Extra Skills - Like Enchanting, Making potions, Ability to use a range of weapon/armor and other magical items, when found.
More to do with individual characters then groups.
I would say there is no ideal party, just some guidelines.
As has been said before, you can get by without anything it just becomes more difficult.
For a well rounded party you should:
Not have too much of the same thing. We once had an entirely melee group. Great, up until we were caught in some narrow tunnels. Most of time only 1 or sometimes 2 guys had anything useful to do.
Range. See above. Blaster magic, archers, dominates, gun slingers, alchemist bombs, summons, etc... Also sometimes the foe is far away, or up high, or scattered about, etc...
Melee. Need someone who can do something when the bad guys get close up. Even if it is just survive while in the way until someone else can eliminate the threat.
Magic. In 90% of the campaigns I have seen. You need someone who can understand, predict, and make magic happen. You can get by without it, but the game is really geared for having it.
Healing. Even if it is UMD and a bunch of wands.
Skills, skills, skills. I'll say it again. Skills. You need somebody with some out of combat skills. Preferably several somebodies if not everybody. Personally, it bothers be when I see anyone dump intelligence. It usually seems to mean that player is just going to sit being impatient anytime the group is not in combat. A few players can still contribute when playing and idiot, but not most of them that I've seen. Any PC should be able to put a few points in some non-combat skills without destroying the build.
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A group of 4 to 6 people that are clever, creative, and cooperative.
+1
But do remember that this thread is asking for Classes.
That said, a good bunch of players can always make the best of the worst class combination. OR avoid making the bad combination of classes in the first place.
This is the Party I just gamed with last night and we ROLLED over 2 Dragons in one encounter and 2 beared devils + 2 advanced beared devils + 2 Zombie wvyrens (I probably mispelled that). I think this is a perfect group make up if for no other reason than for the first time in a long time I personally didn't feel I had to have the perfectly rounded character to survive. The whole party actually pulled together for this, so it ended up great.
Party is 9th level.
Fighter 9, Arcane Archer 2/Wizard 1/Fighter 6, Cleric 9, Sorceror 9, Rogue 9, and my arcane caster(sor 1/wiz 4/pathfinder savant 3/cyphermage 1).
The Frontline fighter handled melee beautifully. Using a scythe as his main, crit a beared devil for 104+8d4. Didn't even bother with rolling the d4s as that dropped him.
The Archer injured the Huge Blue dragon enough that it had to land and try to face us in melee, where it sucumbed to 1 hit from the Fighter and 1 Fireball.
The Sorceror tried to take on the smaller black dragon with scorching rays the which enraged it to attack him in melee. It came in with a flying charge ready to bite the Sorceror's head off, only to be crit on a invisibly sneak attack by the rogue and dropped dead right in front of the Sorceror. The Soreceror looked to the rogue "I was bait?!" The rogue laughed "Yep, you were bait. Good job."
The cleric handle healing beautifully with channels and buffing with Communal Energy Resistance.
The group of the bearded devils with the Zombie Wvyrens was nearly simularly decimated. 2 electricity based fireballs tore into the room scouring the advanced bearded devils and decimated the 2 Zombie Wyvrens before they could act. Fighter stepped in the first round and cleaved the 2 smaller bearded devils, killing both instantly, and in the 2nd round downed one of the advanced bearded. The Arcane Archer played clean up and dropped the final bearded devil. 2 rounds of combat.This to me is an ideal team. Everyone knew their role and worked together. My ideal team would've had more healers to...
WTH? That's some serious DPR!
Was the fight over so fast due to the lucky crits? Cos it sounds like the fight was suppose to be much longer.
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Well, there were crits, yes. But really the group came together and just performed beautifully. It was something I've rarely seen gaming, a group working in cohesion. Ofcourse it does help when I soften the targets with 10d6+22 DC20 fireballs. But, still seeing specialist builds actually working together instead of a scatagorical fashion really impressed me.
Wizard
Cleric
Inquisitor
Magus
Bard
Summoner
Dragons have Blindsense 60ft, he should've spotted something invisible lurking in his path. But that's neither here nor there, sounds like your group is having fun as it is.
Group.
Druid (Shaman of some sort for quicker summons, I like bears)
Master Summoner
Sorcerer (Bedrock or Abyssal maybe, something with a decent summoning boon)
Cleric (Evangelist)
Bonus Party Members:
Wizard (Conjurer)
Witch (Doesn't fit the theme, I just like witches. I guess her powerful single target disablers are powerful in fights where hordes of summons might falter, ie some badasses that won't be taken out by numbers.)
Other than leveling there are 6 categories. What are the greatest classes at doing each of those categories?
2 Barbarian/Fighter
3 Paladin/Monk/Druid
4 Bard/Rogue/Alchemist
5 Bard/Oracle/Sorcerer
6 Wizard/Alchemist
7 Cleric/Magus
That's my biased list. Choose one from each category and your team will be doing just fine.
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I have recently wanted to try a party something like this:
Witch - focuses on debuffing and just screwing bad guys over. Insanity patron for the craziness.
Bard - focuses on buffing the party. Possible range combat.
Cleric - focus on frontline combat.
Magus - focus on fontline combat and blasting spells.
Inquisitor or Rogue - to cover skills, stealth, and range combat.
Healing is shared between the witch, bard, and cleric.
GodWizard
UberWizard
OverWizard
SchroedingersWizardNobody gets near, these 4 together can DESTROY THE UNIVERSE.
At level 1.
Nah, a swarm of gerbils could kill them at level 1. You need them to be at least level 3.
Why these combinations? More info please?Wizard
Cleric
Inquisitor
Magus
Bard
Summoner
Ok. Well, magic is just that awesome. If I were to pick an ideal group, no one would be without spells. Now that I think about it you could replace Magus or Inquisitor with Paladin and probably be okay, but I just don't like Paladins on principle. Stupid do goodin' so and sos *shakes fist*
Wizard and Cleric. You will want a full casting arcane and divine caster. Witch is a fair substitute for Wizard, but it's like half a notch down. Slumber hex IS sexy though. I said cleric as opposed to druid because of the energy burst, which means the cleric can prepare useful utility and/or save or suck spells instead of wasting spells on heals.
The other 4 because they are all competent in combat, if not amazing. I'd probably choose specific archetypes as well. Black Blade Magus, some Bard variant with trapfinding or ability to disarm magical traps (stupid magical traps) and Summoner is just awesome. It can...summon...and eidolons will rape your face.
I dunno. I think this combo would give the best combination of fun melee combat, with lots of buffs (bardsong, haste) while still giving everyone the ability to cast opening volley save or suck/save or lose spells. I mean, with a party of 6, tossing 4 glitterdusts in round one will PROBABLY clinch any fight.
Nah, a swarm of gerbils could kill them at level 1. You need them to be at least level 3.GodWizard
UberWizard
OverWizard
SchroedingersWizardNobody gets near, these 4 together can DESTROY THE UNIVERSE.
At level 1.
1 grease and 3 sleeps in round 1. And then CDG with a scythe. I think you'd probably do okay actually. Unless there was a LOT of undead.
So replace one wizard with a cleric. Done!
druid
druid
druid
druid
rogue
My vote goes for:
paladin, monk, bard, oracle-or-sorcerer
Ah, I missed the "1 of each class" part of the requirements...
Hmmm...
The fighter/cleric/rogue/wizard combination is still what the game is mostly designed for so as boring as that might seem, it's probably as viable as any group you can come up with, so it really boils down to personal preferences.
I don't like to play archetypal single-role characters. In fact I really dislike the whole class system because it reinforces the "peas in a pod" stereotypes. So I would tend to prefer a group where the characters overlap roles a bit, but that doesn't make the party any BETTER, it just makes it more fun for me to play one of the characters. So a party with druids, witches, rangers, paladins, etc. is going to give the player a few more options.
Since I have rarely played in a campaign (regrettably, for sure) where diplomacy/bluff/intimidate was really that important, I just don't see a party having a real need for a "face" with an off-the-charts charisma score, so I don't see a need for a charisma based character like a sorcerer when just about any character with a decent secondary charisma score and some judicious use of spells can accomplish the same thing.
Assuming a group of players who share my preference for multi-faceted characters to play I'd go with:
druid
witch
ranger
and some archetype which gives a mix of rogue and melee combat ability.
Why these combinations? More info please?fighter
rogue
cleric
wizardwhy? classic combo upon the game has historically been designed around. this combo has no flaws and contains all the elements necessary to beat the game!
PDK
Or, it has two flaws. Rogue and Fighter.
Wizard,Wizard,Wizard, Wizard.
Wizard?
Wizard.
We always play with a 6 man party
Thief/Ninja depends on preference
Cleric
Ranger
Psion
Psychic Warrior
Magus
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Yeah, I know I'm late to the party, but I was just about to post a very a similar thread, so I wanna play.
I'm just going to split the difference here and make it a 5-man band. If you want the most effective party no matter any given situation:
Archer Paladin - Give him a 2H weapon for when he has to melee (preferably Great Sword for crit range) and you have a fighter who won't be immediately shut down by a sleep spell. At high levels you have a quick and easy way to shut down even epic DR against evil creatures.
Wizard (Conjurer) - Conjuration has everything. Summon, Control, Damage. And the class abilities are AWESOME.
Bard - A better rogue. Also Inspire Courage. With two summoners in the party this could get ridiculous. Go archer here as well.
Cleric - Healing, Combat utility, and a pretty decent spell list to boot.
Master Summoner - Absolute pure cheese. But if that's too velveeta for your tastes, just about any summoner will do.
For a 4 person party:
Paladin and Ranger (one an archer, the other melee--doesn't matter which is which), any 9 level Arcane caster, any 9 level Divine caster.
This covers every party role twice. Damage, support, melee, range, healing, non-combat, etc. Paladins and Rangers are just flat out better than Fighters and Barbarians--they are just so much more versatile--and every party needs divine and arcane magic by the high levels.
For a 5 person party:
Add a Bard -- don't give up Inspire Courage, but otherwise, anything goes. This gives extra spell support, extra skill support, extra fighty-ness, and makes everyone better overall.
For a 6 person party:
Add an Alchemist Bomber (control focused--Tanglefoot, Confusion, and Stink bombs), Summoner, or another full 9 level arcane caster -- this adds extra space control, since a 6 person party is necessarily going to have larger battlefields and more enemies to deal with.
Not an answer to the topic, au contraire, another question regarding the same subject (I didn't want to create a new similar topic).
My party has 4 PC and I'd like to know which class would be the best for me taking in account what my party already have (Barbarian, Bard, Wizard). If you could rate my 8 options from 1-10 it would be really nice.
1. Fighter TWF
2. Fighter Archer
3. Rogue TWF (Perhaps multiclass)
4. Ranger Archer (Perhaps multiclass)
5. Arcane Trickster (Rogue + Sorcerer)
6. Arcane Archer (Fighter + Sorcerer)
7. Cleric Reach
8. Paladin Archer
I listed those because any of this I'd be pleased to play and I believe my team lacks an archer, a skill-monkey and a divine-caster...
Ps.: We are playing core only.
Played the following 4-man party through Second Darkness (levels included for ultimate progression):
Human 20th level Arcane Duelist
Half-Elven 19th level Summoner / 1st level Dragoon (used Eidolon as a mount starting at 9th level)
Half-Elven 20th level Master Summoner (small scout type Eidolon)
Elven 20th level Void Mage & Spellbinder
The group worked so incredibly well that we are considering using it to run a reboot of Rise of the Runelords, except that we've added the following character:
Human 2nd level Urban Barbarian / 11th level Weaponmaster (Bow) / 1st level Transmuter / 6th level Arcane Archer
We expect to do very well.
If multi-classing is a no-no, then going straight Summoner and straight Weaponmaster (Bow) would be fine.
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4: paladin, wizard, druid (or witch), archery inquisitor. Basically more hybrid classes since everybody has to pull double duty. Bard isn't as helpful without multiple hitters, so inquisitor is as good with just self-buffs.
5: paladin, archery ranger (or gunslinger), wizard, cleric, bard. Specialize, and have a bard.
6: paladin, archery ranger (or alchemist or gunslinger), wizard, cleric, bard, any other melee/ranged hitter. Watch your hitters plus bard flat out melt face.
The bigger the party, the more you want a bard. And like mplindustries said, nothing that gives up inspire courage. It's just too good. In my group, we don't ask, "who's playing the healer?" we ask "who's playing the bard?"
Once you have a bard covering down on buffs, it frees up the divine caster to be a real cleric. Clerics have the advantage of getting ALL the fix-it spells to deal with long-term/permanent conditions, plus other utility stuff. Oracles, druids, and witches can't match that capability.
Witch, sorc, summoner can't match the versatility and utility of a real wizard, either.
Campaign dependent, any melee type, or even a summoner, could sub out for a paladin. But you asked for optimal success over 20 levels.
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Not an answer to the topic, au contraire, another question regarding the same subject (I didn't want to create a new similar topic).
My party has 4 PC and I'd like to know which class would be the best for me taking in account what my party already have (Barbarian, Bard, Wizard). If you could rate my 8 options from 1-10 it would be really nice.
1. Fighter TWF
2. Fighter Archer
3. Rogue TWF (Perhaps multiclass)
4. Ranger Archer (Perhaps multiclass)
5. Arcane Trickster (Rogue + Sorcerer)
6. Arcane Archer (Fighter + Sorcerer)
7. Cleric Reach
8. Paladin ArcherI listed those because any of this I'd be pleased to play and I believe my team lacks an archer, a skill-monkey and a divine-caster...
Ps.: We are playing core only.
1 or 2. Paladin or Ranger Archer. Paladin if you can handle the alignment requirement, otherwise Ranger.
3. Cleric4. Fighter Archer
5. Arcane Archer
6. Arcane Trickster
7. Fighter TWF
8. Rogue TWF
TWF is a trap. If you are a fighter go two handed or archer. Generally Rogue is pretty weak. Cleric is generally the most powerful and versatile, but if you want Divine power and archery the Paladin is a better fit.