Your argument is that WBL is a starting amount used for new characters to spend in any manner (such as crafting supplies). If a GM would not allow me to do this at character creation, and if I were a crafter, I would simply hold back a certain amount of gp to go toward said materials. At any rate, given enough time, I will have my crafted item. But this ignores a GM (and players who agree to it) who has maintained a continuous balance between character wealth that is implied in the book (roughly equal). The balance at creation is equal as everyone has the same amount of gp. Blame Paizo for allowing crafting abilities to create an item at a fraction of the cost. As a player, I'm just following the rules. After creation, it is the GMs job to make sure treasure payouts are balanced. Regardless, give two characters an equal amount of gold and the crafter will be able to utilize this to twice the effect of the non-crafter. That's how the mechanics work.
You argue that a character who obtains a Holy Avenger for 60,000 has it count for only 60,000 of his WBL Because WBL at creation is an amount of gold, not an assessment of value, but yes., even though it has a value of 120,000. Paizo wrote the rules, I didn't. My point is that since now we have firmly established that the price of a Holy Avenger can change The market value does not change. However, crafting works at half of base cost, not market value. The cost would not change even for a crafter if he went to a merchant to buy a Holy Avenger. It would cost him the same. If he made it, the crafting mechanics take effect., if a character obtains for for 0gp or 1gp, should it only count for that value of his WBL as well? Show me a mechanic that allows this. If it exists, then yes. Otherwise, you're just spouting more hyperbole. A gunslinger gets an item whose market value can be as much as 2k gp for free and they still get an average of 175 gp to spend at level 1. I don't see why the idea is so fantastical to you.
WBL is a benchmark to be measured at all times for the GM to continue planning his game. This is true. That's why all characters of a certain level start with the same amount of gp. I'm not saying it should be used as a punishment, but rather a measuring tool to determine the power level within a game and to plan future progression. That's all it is. However, as I've said and as I've shown, the crafting mechanic states what a character can do with a certain amount of gp. If a non-crafter wants the same ability they should invest in crafting skills. Your arguments have also ignored the fact that GM's and players can be reasonable people and talk about these things and use this as a tool to maintain balance within their games. I have not. I have said GMs and players should talk all along. However, the crafting mechanic is what it is. To say it's not is to use house rules instead of RAW and this is a RAW discussion. Thus, the way to limit crafting is through denial of materials and/or time to craft. The point of the thread is to hopefully garner some developer attention to the presented situation and to see if the effect was intentional or if it is subject to change.
Show me a more objective tool in the book for a GM and player to measure the balance of power (of the totality of their magic items) between two characters than WBL.
WBL is balanced as is since everyone has the same starting point. Crafters, however, can stretch their gold further. Again, Paizo wrote the rules. I didn't. I can only argue whats in the rules, mate. I'll copy/paste to your hearts content but no amount of arguing will change the content of the text.
And yet if you played these characters out from level 1 and gave everyone equal opportunity the crafters could still do the same thing in their adventures. Is it fair? Not entirely. Will the mechanics allow this? Yes entirely.
You must consider the total value of all treasure possessed by the character.
Except it's extremely unlikely to occur. First, there's the treasure that may have been recovered before the PC qualified and took the crafting feat. Then there's the likelihood that the crafting PC has also crafted some items for his fellow adventurers for the same cost he's getting on his crafted items.
Since we're pontificating, let's suppose that the crafting PC adventures with other PCs who always make do with the items they recover and never sell any. The GM always gives out items and not cash. What's the difference in WBL per PC? Nothing. The crafter gets to convert the items he gets as his share into stuff he actually wants. A nice benefit to the feat, but there's no actual difference in WBL per PC.
Ultimately, there are far too many variables in how characters are played, how treasure is distributed, what treasure is actually recovered over the life of a PC, and all of that, to conclusively say that a crafter would have any significant benefit in the market value of his wealth over his fellow non-crafting PCs.
Where I come down in the debate between using market value of items only or allowing the item creation feats to discount starting items is on the side of using just the market value. It's the fairest way to handle it around the table as far as I'm concerned. That, in no way, lessens the value of the item creation feats since those still have an impact in ongoing play.
That is not a complete list of Craft skills... Hmmm, looking at the rules... Gems and Jewelry used to be trade goods in 3.5e. I guess PF changed that? I find it somewhat odd coming to a Pathfinder discussion armed with knowledge from a different game system.
Regardless, take linen then from pathfinder's trade goods table. Pregame you have as much time as you need. This can not be assumed. You only have as much time as the GM allows. Again, you manage your character. The GM manages the world it lives in. To say you have as much time as you need is a presumption upon the world that is not yours to make. Someone with Craft (cloth) could take the say 1000gp for one example of start money off the WBL table (level 2) and buy the materials required to craft Linen cloth, craft it, and start with 3000gp in Linen cloth. If the gm allows you the time and resources, then yes, it would seem so. Then before start they could trade that linen for magic items at full value. That is triple. I guess if you have limitless time you could also start with limitless money if you simply rinse and repeat with the above method. Again, you assume infinite supply and time. I've never played a campaign where either were true and is more presupposition on the world that is not a player's to make. As you might be able to see this is only useful if you have vast amounts of free time. And unlimited resources. Since a starting character has over a decade of free time it is only fair to restrict how that time can be used. Depends on age, and most of a level 1's time is spent in in childhood. It is also wise to eliminate "fast time" plane shifting. Unless you don't mind your PCs having vast wealth even beyond the tables.
The most hilarious thing to me is that nothing is really being argued, or was intended to be argued, at least. My entire goal in this thread is to gain some attention by Paizo to get some feedback if the Crafting mechanic essentially being able to double or triple wealth is intentional or was more "accidental carryover" from 3.5 and is subject to future revisions. I realize all rules are subject to change under the right circumstance. However, I'm trying to ask instead of assuming.
The argument is that a crafter can acquire items cheaper than a non-crafter. As such your point is invalid and is hyperbole and according to others is immature we can dismiss this argument.
My point is this. If you determine the value based upon the amount of money used to acquire an item, then you must ALWAYS use the amount of money used to acquire the item to determine value.
Please determine for the WBL effect for the following characters of an item costing 10,000gp.
Character A: found it on the ground
Character B: paid market price
Character C: crafted it
Character D: was "sold" it for a symbolic value of 1gp.
My argument is that all 4 characters treat the item the same for WBL determination.
The market value in all 4 situations does not change. However, the crafter can acquire it for half it's base cost and Character D acquired it for 1gp. Should this impact future loot? That's up to the GM and campaign in question. In general, I would say yes. It doesn't change the fact the crafter can acquire the item for less than the person who paid the market price for the item. Likewise, it's completely legit for a crafting oriented character to withhold 5,000 gp and to begin the crafting process after character creation. The overall effect is the same.
I still don't understand why Crafter get's to use his feat and skill to make up to 2x WBL, but the rogue can't use his skill (and possibly feat) to make money before the game?
Nor why mundane crafting supposedly provides 0 sum pre-game, but crafting doesn't?
We're back to the 'if I can say I do things pre-game to adjust WBL, then why can't everyone?'. Craft (Arms). I roll 125 gp at game start. I am an elf, I am 55 years old. I only have one level, so obviously I spent 30 years doing something other than adventuring...
I spent that time doing this. I bought 125gp of metal, and crafted daggers. Then I sold them. That turned my 125gp to 187.5gp. Then I bought a 187.5gp of metal, and forged swords, and turned my 187.5gp into
281.25gp of metal. Then I bought 281.25gp of metal and turned it into maces and sold them for 421.875 gp. Then I built kukri for 632 gp, then shuriken for 949 gp. Then I did flower arranging for the other 29 years. I started with 949gp (6 times starting wealth), and it makes perfect sense per this logic. It's not even all that overpowered, considering rich parents does the same thing...
Per logic, it does. However, it is up to the GM if events unfolded like that. You can say you want something to happen, but you don't control the game world and so you can't assume that happened.
No comments on the feats so far?
The crafting feats? What about them?
The crafting feats? What about them?
Aye. Part of what we're running into here is that the crafting feats are too vague in the benefit they represent. So long as that vagueness is there, person A can handwave one way, and person B can handwave another, with both sides claiming they're reasonable. And from their own POV? Sure, they ARE reasonable. No, really. Because everyone runs differently.
However, for 'general game purposes,' in the meantime, why not:
1. Continue to flag this topic for a FAQ
2. Then, bgin proposing your own version of the feats that are more specific than the current version
Since PF will eventually go to a version 2.0, #1 makes sense for the interim, and then #2 makes sense for providing a viable solution via playtesting.
Perhaps that's too dry of an explanation; I'm just tired. ':) This post isn't to attack anyone. I'm just running out of popcorn...
Would these be reasonable as a starting point? Yes, they need a lot of work, especially as regards the amount of sleep I'm getting. :)
Craft Magic Item
Pre-req: CL 1
Choose a magic item type (such as wondrous, or weapons and armor). You possess the ability and knowledge needed to craft these items. The ability to craft these items relies on possessing the correct amount of magical essence.
Magical essence may be produced in two manners: by breaking down existing items, or by channeling and storing certain amount of divine or arcane energies into certain containers. The cost of these storage containers is equal to the cost of the MI being created.
You may apply this essence to other items to create a variety of effects. In effect, whenever treasure is rolled you may choose to "swap out" any amount of the treasure roll at no cost. That is, if the treasure roll value is 2,000, you may effectively trade it for an equal amount of treasure of your choosing (so long as you know how to create that type of item). You are assumed to use a variety of methods to create enough essence to be able to accomplish this task.
Each time you take this feat, you may choose to exchange for a different type of item or items (such as wondrous, or weapons and armor).
Use of this ability requires 1 day of work to craft the essence, and an additional day to apply it to each new item to be created. At the DM's discretion, smaller items may be created more quickly.
Beneficial Patron
Pre-req: None
You possess greater resources than the average adventurer, perhaps via a patron or other benefit, and may calculate your WBL at +1 to your actual total character levels. At the end of each story arc, you receive whatever amount of additional treasure needed to set you at this goal.
The language needs cleaned up quite a bit, and I'm still not sure I'm serious or not, here. I think this is more along the lines of adding a different dimension to a discussion that seems to be going in circles.
The most hilarious thing to me is that nothing is really being argued, or was intended to be argued, at least. My entire goal in this thread is to gain some attention by Paizo to get some feedback if the Crafting mechanic essentially being able to double or triple wealth is intentional or was more "accidental carryover" from 3.5 and is subject to future revisions. I realize all rules are subject to change under the right circumstance. However, I'm trying to ask instead of assuming.
I really wish they would either say something here or write up somethig for the blog or address it somehow. This has been a known confusion since 3E was released.
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Crafting feats as they are now are fine. What the RAW should change is the amount of money needed to craft.
Ideally, an item should be bought 100%, sold 100% and crafted at 100% ; with the possiblity to gain a slight bargain on either of these values with hign enough ranks, like the Charisma features does by reducing prices in Fallout systems.
A level 15 character with the appropriate feats could for example come into play with approximately 15% more wealth by level, but this 15% would only apply on items for which he possesses the appropriate crafting feats (with only CWI and enough ranks, the 15% could only be used on each Wondrous Item he begins with ; but the character would still have to do a craft check for each item, using his WBL as a basis to see exactly what he begins game with - thus getting a concrete beginning, and ongoing bonus to the crafter, but not enough to break the system).
Crafting feats as they are now are fine. What the RAW should change is the amount of money needed to craft.
Ideally, an item should be bought 100%, sold 100% and crafted at 100% ; ...
It's possible that the 50 percent was more an aim to make found treasure more valuable.
Would going to some sort of tokens system be an answer, then?
We're going back and forth a lot with side a versus side b...but even as I mentioned the token system, I started wondering: what are people really looking for?
My guess is that it's a variety of things, but I'm curious.
I don't think there is a problem with the feats mostly. They each grant the ability to craft something. Then, there are entire sections devoted to that type of crafting. It makes it clear enough.
Maxx, doing that no one would ever make money. How would you represent an economy if everything was bought, sold and produced at cost? Once you had exhausted your initial funds, that's all that would exist. Nothing new could be introduced because there is nothing left to produce anything.
Bob, aye. Very much, aye.
I think a mitigating factor would be to revamp the CWI side of things. Since it's "all encompassing" for things that don't fit elsewhere it is a pretty amazing feat. If CWI were broken up into feats that either a) further defined more types or b) let you otherwise enchant an item with a certain subset of effects that would be spelled out in each feat that would make CWI not feel as powerful. So, in order to make items that cost upwards of several hundred thousand gp you need more than a single feat.
We're going back and forth a lot with side a versus side b...but even as I mentioned the token system, I started wondering: what are people really looking for?
My guess is that it's a variety of things, but I'm curious.
My intent is very clear in the second post of the thread.
Just to clarify, I'm not asking for dev input or rules on how much starting money can/should/must/whatever be put toward crafting. I'm simply asking if utilizing the craft mechanics should allow a character to exceed his WBL.
somebody needs to lock this thread and ban the topic. all this aggression coming from both sides is not healthy, can we just agree to disagree and not bring this up? not everything needs a faq.There's no aggression. It's fun having an argument for 8 pages in several threads where the only argument on one side has been basing a decision on a guideline designed to help a GM with basing encounters while giving ample rules, mechanics, and examples that can show deviation to attempt proving the other.
EDIT: it's usually how debates go. Someone finds something they feel is the crux and the other tries to find ways to prove it isn't.
Except that some people want guideline to mean nothing. If you have an essay due for class and the teacher says that for an A you should have about 2000 words and you turn in 500 and then whine that 2000 was only a guideline so your going to the dean good luck.
Claiming double the benefit of your money based off one feat is as bad as complaining about the numbers of arrows a fighter can shoot a round or how OP sneak attack is.
Your example is opposing your argument from WBL. Since your essay is only 500 words your teacher will beef it up with 1500 words to make your essay similar to the rest of the class. If you chose to write 4000 words your teacher is angry because you wrote too much and were allowed to write more information than the rest of the class thus upping your class rating by +1 or even +2.
You guys keep arguing with me directly that some people want a guideline to mean nothing based off of my comments when I have said it's a guideline designed to help a GM with baseing encounters. Did I say it means nothing? No I said it means it's a guideline. If a GM decides that WBL is insufficient for his campaigns he can modify it however he wants to make for better encounters and better gameplay. What I didn't say was completely ignore WBL because it's just a guideline....
Heres a challenge buddy go find one post where I said I even advocate giving more or less treasure to individuals to balance WBL.
Also I'm arguing the word guideline and your creating an argument about WBL from it
Or, requiring other prerequisites. For example, to make a heavily enchanted item you need spell focus enchantment or if you want to make an item with energy drain effects you need spell focus necromancy or some such or for a certain level of spells (let's say 8 and above for kicks and giggles) you need spell specialization in a particular spell to imbue an item with it. Just another thought.
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How about actually enforcing the caster level as a requirement instead of simply going 'meh, it's meaningless'. And then don't let caster level be something you can bypass. That would negate a bunch of the ability to abuse crafting right there.
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How about actually enforcing the caster level as a requirement instead of simply going 'meh, it's meaningless'. And then don't let caster level be something you can bypass. That would negate a bunch of the ability to abuse crafting right there.
that actually sounds workable. it's makes "doubled" wealth a lot less powerful because now, you cannot exceed your caster level. it pretty much negates the whole issue.
Not entirely, but it puts a big giant hole in it.
Value Time. It's the only way to fix it.
Unfortunately, Paizo stuck a torch in that by allowing crafting and adventuring on the same days, although at a reduced rate.
The Time of a Wiz/17 is worth FAR more then a Wiz/5. Time casters spend making magic items others should be able to spend in equally lucrative jobs.
But no mundane crafting skill can generate potentially 500 gp of 'extra' cash. NPC crafters should be the richest people in any campaign.
===Aelryinth
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Maxx, doing that no one would ever make money. How would you represent an economy if everything was bought, sold and produced at cost? Once you had exhausted your initial funds, that's all that would exist. Nothing new could be introduced because there is nothing left to produce anything.
We're talking about a game where people come back to life and cast fireballs.
And I said that in such system, a crafter would make a profit by crafting, and even possibly by selling if he invested in skills and feats. Something like 5% bargain on the full item price and 5% additional benefit on a full item price's sale at low levels. 100GP item becomes paid at 95GP by the crafter and sold at 105 to the buyer : 10GP benefit on a single sale, 10% total benefit on a single craft/sell transaction.Awesome profit ? Not at all. Stil enough to have the wealthiest lifestyle you can buy by RAW after only some levels.
But no mundane crafting skill can generate potentially 500 gp of 'extra' cash. NPC crafters should be the richest people in any campaign.
Until you realize that the crafting rules aren't intended to actually model a realistic artisan economy. They're in the game to model the PC crafting something, and that's pretty much it.
Maxx, doing that no one would ever make money. How would you represent an economy if everything was bought, sold and produced at cost? Once you had exhausted your initial funds, that's all that would exist. Nothing new could be introduced because there is nothing left to produce anything.We're talking about a game where people come back to life and cast fireballs.
And I said that in such system, a crafter would make a profit by crafting, and even possibly by selling if he invested in skills and feats. Something like 5% bargain on the full item price and 5% additional benefit on a full item price's sale at low levels. 100GP item becomes paid at 95GP by the crafter and sold at 105 to the buyer : 10GP benefit on a single sale, 10% total benefit on a single craft/sell transaction.
Awesome profit ? Not at all. Stil enough to have the wealthiest lifestyle you can buy by RAW after only some levels.
Level 1's are pretty awesome by "normal" standards.
Read this today: http://www.thealexandrian.net/creations/misc/d&d-calibrating.html
Makes a lot of sense.
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Level 1's are pretty awesome by "normal" standards.
Read this today: http://www.thealexandrian.net/creations/misc/d&d-calibrating.html
Makes a lot of sense.
I've read this a long time ago. I like it, but it is a text made to help people have the rules make sense in specific, low-to-standard settings, or not accustomed to mid-to-high level yet. While it is useful to calibrate the setting NPC's and their relation to PCs, it doesn't resolve the balance issues caused by a too litteral use of the RAW without the common sense to limit it. The simple fact people try to find ways to balance it out that usually relies on the DM basically saying yes or no for every situation is a good proof that there is a real need for changing these rules someday, as the blog post made for the Stealth rules.
I've read this a long time ago. I like it, but it is a text made to help people have the rules make sense in specific, low-to-standard settings, or not accustomed to mid-to-high level yet. While it is useful to calibrate the setting NPC's and their relation to PCs, it doesn't resolve the balance issues caused by a too litteral use of the RAW without the common sense to limit it. The simple fact people try to find ways to balance it out that usually relies on the DM basically saying yes or no for every situation is a good proof that there is a real need for changing these rules someday, as the blog post made for the Stealth rules.
That may be true but Paizo/WotC starts you essentially as a master craftsman (being capable of making MC gear) should you decide to put even just a little effort into crafting. It can only get better from there. That clearly upsets some people.
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It's an awful essay, because it starts with certain assumptions, ignores anything in the system that doesn't agree with it (such as climbing skill working very well for doing free-climbing, but only if you have people in the 8 to 12 range due to how many skill ranks you need to free climb a sheer face). Basically, things that we can do in the real world can't be done by a level 5 person. But the essay ignores anything that doesn't fit into it's preconceived notions.
Then on top of that, people start quoting that it's 'RAW' that the world (whatever one is being discussed) only has level 1 to 5 people in it, so a level 10 PC (who came from where exactly?) is an uber god who can slaughter armies with impugnity and a level 20 can destroy the entire world by themselves if they want to.
Blech! I hate the Alexandrian Myth. It only works if you play E6, and throw out 80% of the game.
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WBL: The Easy Way.
Characters start with a specific amount of gold to purchase equipment, as determined by class and level using the current tables.
At next level-up, they repick their equipment to equal the new WBL total. This is described as selling/trading items for other equipment or materials to craft. Final load out should be cleared with the DM for suitability to the setting and location.
Crafters may use current gear or found treasure to craft other items between leveling, but must reset to the new total on leveling. Excess treasure is considered lost, sold at a poor price, stolen, etc. while characters with lower WBL are considered to have found a bargain deal, gifted wealth by friendly NPCs, or other fortunate circumstances.
Thus, crafters maintain an edge in each level, being able to find just what they need far more often than non-crafters, and have a slightly higher total when time permits, but are corrected down each level to prevent severe differences.
This does give non-crafters a boost in being able to select their gear and not be entirely subject to the whims of the loot table. You may adjust this by abolishing the craft feats and requiring only skill point investment to craft items.
@Khrysaor
5% failure means you die every 20th climb. Therefore, you need the 100% take 10. Only, darn, you can't take 10 when you are in immediate danger. Given that you are solo climbing, you are in immediate danger of dieing if you fail. So no take 10.
That means you need to be able to succeed without taking 10. So uhm, no, you need to be higher. And in 3.5, skill focus didn't double at 10 ranks. So... not sure how you'd get to an auto success without being much higher ranked. I'm sure there's some other feats to give you some bonuses without needing to hit level 19, but by your own post, you need to be 9 to do it even if you allow taking 10, which is, ta dah! Not level 5. Which is Alexandrian Myth's limit on NPCs. Unless you're saying all rock climbers are magically PCs.
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All these complicated immersion breaking rules (such as, I magically lose all my equipment every few months).
Isn't it much simpler to just use the WBL guidelines as intended for character creation, not allowing crafting, and then allowing the inherent limitations built into crafting during the game to keep the WBL guidelines in tact?
The more people try to say crafting allows the crafter to start with more WBL than allowed, the more house rules they have to tack onto the system to keep things from spinning out of control, and the more they have to invoke DM Fiat.
I prefer occums razor.
IkeDoe, you're missing the question. Several people are. It's not whether you can craft during the game.
It's whether you can use craft feats to spend 1/2 for each item when starting a new character.
So, for example, a 10th level wizard starts with Craft Wondrous Item. He has 64,000gp. If you allow him to craft pre-start, using starting funds, he could have 128,000gp worth of equipment.
Some of us think that's a bit broken.
A 10th level human wizard has 8 available feats. To create all of his own items he'll need the following feats:
- Brew Potion- Craft Wand
- Craft Wondrous Item
- Forge Ring
That's half of his available feats. Though I suppose he could ditch brew potion and craft wand which would result in a quarter of his feats being used for item creation. There should be some benefit to having these feats at character creation.
During the normal course of a characters career he gains both items and gold. Some of the items that are picked up during this time aren't useful for the party and they are sold. The other items are kept, the gold is used to buy new items. As the character levels, he either crafts, finds or buys new items and sells the old items that he acquired (through buying, crafting or buying). Each iteration of selling and buying a new item halves the value of wealth the original item gave to a character. A character that has item creation feats doesn't lose wealth in this process. It stays constant.
Depending on how often a character exchanges old equipment and gets new equipment, it's possible that normal character destroys an amount of personal wealth equal to their WBL at any given level. So I ran some numbers in Google Docs to find out. If a 9th level character sells 90% of his item wealth each level, he will have effectively destroyed an amount of wealth equal to his 10th WBL. That's an excessively large percentage. Where it should be: I don't know.
Some other numbers @ 10 level
- 45% items sold each level = half of all wealth destroyed
- 22% items sold each level = quarter of all wealth destroyed
On a related note, the higher level a character is the more this compounds.
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Only, darn, you can't take 10 when you are in immediate danger. Given that you are solo climbing, you are in immediate danger of dieing if you fail. So no take 10.
Sorry, the rules don't work quite the way you think you do. You are in immediate danger if someone is shooting arrows at you, not if you are climbing a rock face (tools or no).