How was the Wealth by Level chart constructed?

[TOZ]

Buri wrote:

And no, it's not a recommendation. The GM can use the fiat rule to say you start with a different amount. Otherwise the text states you get a certain GP amount and to look at the WBL for amounts for characters higher than level 1. It is not written is a vague way.

The words 'guideline' 'expected' and 'assumes' say otherwise. It is not a rule.

[Buri]

TOZ wrote:

I just CTRL-F'ed that section for the word 'gold'. I didn't find it.

Let me help you:

Equipment, Wealth and Money wrote:

Wealth And Money

Each character begins play with a number of gold pieces that he can spend on weapons, armor, and other equipment. As a character adventures, he accumulates more wealth that can be spent on better gear and magic items. Table: Starting Character Wealth lists the starting gold piece values by class. In addition, each character begins play with an outfit worth 10 gp or less. For characters above 1st level, see Table: Character Wealth by Level.

[Buri]

Looking at that table:

Quote:

Table: Character Wealth by Level

PC Level* Wealth
2 1,000 gp
3 3,000 gp
4 6,000 gp
5 10,500 gp
6 16,000 gp
7 23,500 gp
8 33,000 gp
9 46,000 gp
10 62,000 gp
11 82,000 gp
12 108,000 gp
13 140,000 gp
14 185,000 gp
15 240,000 gp
16 315,000 gp
17 410,000 gp
18 530,000 gp
19 685,000 gp
20 880,000 gp

With the section I quoted earlier, the amount of gold a character gains if he starts a certain level is established quite clearly.

[TOZ]

Yes, and I've quoted the guidelines that accompany that table. Those are expected totals, not granted totals.

[Buri]

And if you want to complain about the asterisk all it states is such:

Quote:

* For 1st-level PCs, see table 6–1 in Equipment.

[Khrysaor]

TOZ wrote:

In fact...

Quote:

As PCs gain levels, the amount of treasure they carry and use increases as well. The Pathfinder Roleplaying Game assumes that all PCs of equivalent level have roughly equal amounts of treasure and magic items. Since the primary income for a PC derives from treasure and loot gained from adventuring, it's important to moderate the wealth and hoards you place in your adventures. To aid in placing treasure, the amount of treasure and magic items the PCs receive for their adventures is tied to the Challenge Rating of the encounters they face—the higher an encounter's CR, the more treasure it can award.

Table: Character Wealth by Level lists the amount of treasure each PC is expected to have at a specific level. Note that this table assumes a standard fantasy game. Low-fantasy games might award only half this value, while high-fantasy games might double the value. It is assumed that some of this treasure is consumed in the course of an adventure (such as potions and scrolls), and that some of the less useful items are sold for half value so more useful gear can be purchased.

Table: Character Wealth by Level can also be used to budget gear for characters starting above 1st level, such as a new character created to replace a dead one. Characters should spend no more than half their total wealth on any single item. For a balanced approach, PCs that are built after 1st level should spend no more than 25% of their wealth on weapons, 25% on armor and protective devices, 25% on other magic items, 15% on disposable items like potions, scrolls, and wands, and 10% on ordinary gear and coins. Different character types might spend their wealth differently than these percentages suggest; for example, arcane casters might spend very little on weapons but a great deal more on other magic items and disposable items.

Table: Treasure Values per Encounter lists the amount of treasure each encounter should award based on the average level of the PCs and the speed of the campaign's XP progression (slow,

...

And by this logic we're back to the, 'it doesn't say you can keep gold coins in the description so you can't' argument. Does this also mean that if you don't spend the full 62000gp for a level 10 character in items you can't keep a bit of it. Even if you spent 58000gp and wanted to keep the other 4000gp for a that 6000gp item you wanted next. Too bad it doesn't say anything about gold so give that money back?

[mdt]

Buri wrote:

TOZ wrote:

I just CTRL-F'ed that section for the word 'gold'. I didn't find it.

Let me help you:

Equipment, Wealth and Money wrote:

Wealth And Money

Each character begins play with a number of gold pieces that he can spend on weapons, armor, and other equipment. As a character adventures, he accumulates more wealth that can be spent on better gear and magic items. Table: Starting Character Wealth lists the starting gold piece values by class. In addition, each character begins play with an outfit worth 10 gp or less. For characters above 1st level, see Table: Character Wealth by Level.

And that applies to level 1 characters. For going higher than that, use the Character Wealth by Level rules. I don't see anything that says the two are the same rules.

Level 1 says give them GP and let them spend them.

WBL says they get treasure valued at X GP based on the level they are starting at.

Do you see the difference now?

[Buri]

TOZ wrote:

Yes, and I've quoted the guidelines that accompany that table. Those are expected totals, not granted totals.

Does that also include the following section?

Quote:

Table: Character Wealth by Level can also be used to budget gear for characters starting above 1st level, such as a new character created to replace a dead one. Characters should spend no more than half their total wealth on any single item. For a balanced approach, PCs that are built after 1st level should spend no more than 25% of their wealth on weapons, 25% on armor and protective devices, 25% on other magic items, 15% on disposable items like potions, scrolls, and wands, and 10% on ordinary gear and coins. Different character types might spend their wealth differently than these percentages suggest; for example, arcane casters might spend very little on weapons but a great deal more on other magic items and disposable items.

That is a semi-colon. It is a different symbol for ending a sentence only to be connected to a related sentence. It is it's own thought. Thus, each character is completely free in how to spend their gold. It is a pile of cash because it is a number of gold pieces awarded per RAW. Any other interpretation is completely ignoring what is in the book. How that character spends the gold is entirely dependent on the make up of that character.

[Buri]

mdt wrote:

And that applies to level 1 characters. For going higher than that, use the Character Wealth by Level rules. I don't see anything that says the two are the same rules.

Level 1 says give them GP and let them spend them.

WBL says they get treasure valued at X GP based on the level they are starting at.

Do you see the difference now?

NOTHING ANYWHERE references "rules." All that is referenced is a chart. "If you start higher than level one, you get the amount of gp as determined by this chart." Nothing in there constrains the player on how they may spend their gold. Those other sections are for GMs to use, not for players, otherwise the reference would have said something similar to "refer to this section for starting values", instead of a specific table.

[TOZ]

Did you miss the 'might'? It's not absolute.

[mdt]

Khrysaor wrote:

And by this logic we're back to the, 'it doesn't say you can keep gold coins in the description so you can't' argument. Does this also mean that if you don't spend the full 62000gp for a level 10 character in items you can't keep a bit of it. Even if you spent 58000gp and wanted to keep the other 4000gp for a that 6000gp item you wanted next. Too bad it doesn't say anything about gold so give that money back?

Coins are in the equipment section, so you can have part of your treasure value as coins if you wish.

I do not see 'crafting materials' in the equipment chapter, nor in the magic items chapter. Hmmm, maybe you weren't intended to use the WBL to buy crafting materials, since they aren't listed in the equipment chapter for you to purchase them as treasure?

I can get just as pedantic as anyone on rules discussions. :) If someone wants to ignore the guidelines, then I'll just enforce the fact that there are no crafting supplies listed to buy, so your 'treasure' can't consist of them. Since you can't get any in your treasure, you can't craft pre-game, because you had no supplies.

[Buri]

TOZ wrote:

Did you miss the 'might'? It's not absolute.

Which is completely up to the individual character. You can not expect each of them to do so.

[Khrysaor]

Fergie wrote:

Crafting is NOT outside the assumption of WBL. The line of text you cited in no way proves that crafting is outside intended WBL. You could sell a small boat you acquired, and buy horses. Or you could sell a huge suit of armor, and buy gear to craft with. Unless you have Craft (equine) or Craft (crafting gear), crafting isn't going to help you.

The line in the book about this gives the examples of consumables consumed and gold gained from selling items to buy others. Crafting does not require a character to sell items and buy others, as you sell items and craft others. This is what sets it outside of the constraints of that argument as I said and my reference is entirely applicable.

fergie wrote:

Khrysaor wrote:

And again it's not an assumption on a class or ability being able to generate more wealth, it's using the mechanics we are all given.

The entire game is essentially a system based on killing monster and taking their stuff - ("...the primary income for a PC derives from treasure and loot gained from adventuring"). That is by far the most profitable enterprise in the game. Anything you do that makes you better at that, such as crafting, power attacking, stealth, bluff, heal, etc. will generate wealth. Crafting is not a beautiful and unique snowflake, it is just another feat or skill that makes you a little better at killing things and taking their stuff.

Yes, all of those things do affect your wealth. The thing is that crafting directly affects your wealth with wealth being the main factor of its equations. The others indirectly affect wealth by making encounters easier to accomplish. By far the most profitable enterprise in the game is being an NPC crafter that crafts at half price and sells for full price. Crafting is not a feat that makes you better at killing things. Crafting makes you capable of crafting. It's the indirect benefits that come with this that make you better at killing.

Fergie wrote:

Finally, crafting requires a Spellcraft check. If you are making skill checks, THE GAME HAS BEGUN! There is no prequel negative time line where the game is played first before you start, you know... playing.

You've already assumed these craft checks were made in your negative time line. The problem with time lines is that they are all relative to something. The negative in your reference is relative to starting a new campaign post adventuring. The thing is that the timeline of that character was day 1 of adventuring starting at level 1. He has already made an abundance of checks to get to where he is prior to joining the new campaign.

[Khrysaor]

mdt wrote:

Khrysaor wrote:

And by this logic we're back to the, 'it doesn't say you can keep gold coins in the description so you can't' argument. Does this also mean that if you don't spend the full 62000gp for a level 10 character in items you can't keep a bit of it. Even if you spent 58000gp and wanted to keep the other 4000gp for a that 6000gp item you wanted next. Too bad it doesn't say anything about gold so give that money back?

Coins are in the equipment section, so you can have part of your treasure value as coins if you wish.

I do not see 'crafting materials' in the equipment chapter, nor in the magic items chapter. Hmmm, maybe you weren't intended to use the WBL to buy crafting materials, since they aren't listed in the equipment chapter for you to purchase them as treasure?

I can get just as pedantic as anyone on rules discussions. :) If someone wants to ignore the guidelines, then I'll just enforce the fact that there are no crafting supplies listed to buy, so your 'treasure' can't consist of them. Since you can't get any in your treasure, you can't craft pre-game, because you had no supplies.

And since it's assumed by the rules if it's not listed its a no. Therefore crafting is impossible because you can never buy the necessary requirements to make anything.

[Buri]

mdt wrote:

Coins are in the equipment section, so you can have part of your treasure value as coins if you wish.

I do not see 'crafting materials' in the equipment chapter, nor in the magic items chapter. Hmmm, maybe you weren't intended to use the WBL to buy crafting materials, since they aren't listed in the equipment chapter for you to purchase them as treasure?

I can get just as pedantic as anyone on rules discussions. :) If someone wants to ignore the guidelines, then I'll just enforce the fact that there are no crafting supplies listed to buy, so your 'treasure' can't consist of them. Since you can't get any in your treasure, you can't craft pre-game, because you had no supplies.

Crafting materials aren't listed anywhere, you are correct. However, you can purchase 3,000 gp worth of adamantine for a weapon.

[Khrysaor]

Irontruth wrote:

Khrysaor wrote:

The lich has those abilities and can use them. He's undead and has infinite time to do so until the heroes come along and relieve him of this. Then again the lich isn't an adventurer that gains extra wealth to use on crafting. The lich doesn't have access to purchasing magic items or crafting materials. Sure he can cast alter self and go to town and buy them. But then he's far from his domain where he would feel safest. Knowing his phylactory isn't going to be found.

You skipped over the important part, do magic items affect the lich's CR?

If a DM added 50,000gp worth of magic items to a lich (useful items for the lich) should the CR increase? What if I give it 100,000? 2,000,000? My point is that wealth (as measured in magic items) has a direct impact on game balance. Are you trying to argue that wealth does not have a direct impact on game balance?

Also, can I play a Paladin 5? His church thinks he is the best chance to save the world, so they sold him +5 Full Plate, +5 Heavy Shield and a Holy Avenger each for 1g. 3g is well under WBL for level 5.

This has already been argued and it was deemed that having an increase in wealth can and cannot increase CR. Having 1000 campfire beads or items that are utility vs affecting a characters combat usefulness don't really affect a characters CR. If they are all items that directly affect your main skillset and combat usefulness then yes your CR will change. It's still GM discretion to maintain balance.

[TOZ]

Buri wrote:

Crafting materials aren't listed anywhere, you are correct. However, you can purchase 3,000 gp worth of adamantine for a weapon.

Show me the rule that says you can use 3000gp worth of adamantine to craft a weapon. :)

[Khrysaor]

mdt wrote:

Buri wrote:

TOZ wrote:

I just CTRL-F'ed that section for the word 'gold'. I didn't find it.

Let me help you:

Equipment, Wealth and Money wrote:

Wealth And Money

Each character begins play with a number of gold pieces that he can spend on weapons, armor, and other equipment. As a character adventures, he accumulates more wealth that can be spent on better gear and magic items. Table: Starting Character Wealth lists the starting gold piece values by class. In addition, each character begins play with an outfit worth 10 gp or less. For characters above 1st level, see Table: Character Wealth by Level.

And that applies to level 1 characters. For going higher than that, use the Character Wealth by Level rules. I don't see anything that says the two are the same rules.

Level 1 says give them GP and let them spend them.

WBL says they get treasure valued at X GP based on the level they are starting at.

Do you see the difference now?

The first sentence is applicable to all characters where the next sentences are the clauses that seperate 1st level and the rest.

[mdt]

TOZ wrote:

Buri wrote:

Crafting materials aren't listed anywhere, you are correct. However, you can purchase 3,000 gp worth of adamantine for a weapon.

Show me the rule that says you can use 3000gp worth of adamantine to craft a weapon. :)

Show me the rule that says you can buy 3000gp worth of adamantine for that matter.

The only rules I see are the ones that say if you buy an item made of adamantine, increase the cost by X amount.

[Buri]

TOZ wrote:

Show me the rule that says you can use 3000gp worth of adamantine to craft a weapon. :)

Blatant trolling is blatant. :)

3,000 gp is the cost modifier to make an adamantine weapon. However, if you could never purchase said adamantine to make the weapon then there would be no adamantine weapons. :)

[mdt]

Khrysaor wrote:

The first sentence is applicable to all characters where the next sentences are the clauses that seperate 1st level and the rest.

That would be your interpretation. However, I disagree with it.

[mdt]

Buri wrote:

TOZ wrote:

Show me the rule that says you can use 3000gp worth of adamantine to craft a weapon. :)

Blatant trolling is blatant. :)

3,000 gp is the cost modifier to make an adamantine weapon. However, if you could never purchase said adamantine to make the weapon then there would be no adamantine weapons. :)

Nonsense, the rules say there are adamantine weapons.

They just don't say you can buy the adamantine.

There are things in the game you can buy but not make (artifacts?). So why would you assume you can buy adamantine?

[Buri]

Quote:

Adamantine is so costly that weapons and armor made from it are always of masterwork quality; the masterwork cost is included in the prices given below.

If it were not purchasable it would not be "costly." Again, good try at derailing the thread.

WBL says you get a certain amount of GP. Crafting says you can spend this at a fraction of an items cost to create an item. Does this mean the crafting abilities can, in fact, allow a character to go above their stated WBL in terms of value? 25 people would like to know as well, not just me.

[Khrysaor]

mdt wrote:

TOZ wrote:

Buri wrote:

Crafting materials aren't listed anywhere, you are correct. However, you can purchase 3,000 gp worth of adamantine for a weapon.

Show me the rule that says you can use 3000gp worth of adamantine to craft a weapon. :)

Show me the rule that says you can buy 3000gp worth of adamantine for that matter.

The only rules I see are the ones that say if you buy an item made of adamantine, increase the cost by X amount.

And since we can't find a rule that says you can't craft an adamantine weapon, by proxy you can't buy one as no one can make them.

[Buri]

Regardless, the crafting abilities and their corresponding chapters state how much you pay in order to create an item. It is no way specifies the exact manner in which you must acquire the materials, only the price you have to pay for them. If you could not acquire the materials then all crafting would be null and void. It's a ridiculous argument to say "show me where it says you can purchase crafting materials." The rules don't specify how. Only that you do and the price for them.

[Khrysaor]

mdt wrote:

Khrysaor wrote:

The first sentence is applicable to all characters where the next sentences are the clauses that seperate 1st level and the rest.

That would be your interpretation. However, I disagree with it.

Quote:

Each character begins play with a number of gold pieces that he can spend on weapons, armor, and other equipment. As a character adventures, he accumulates more wealth that can be spent on better gear and magic items.

There is nothing to disagree with. These sentences state you start with gold and as you adventure you accumulate more wealth. Wealth = items + gold. There is no idea of knowing how much of either you can have. It could be 100% gold with 0% items, 50%/50%, or 0% gold to 100% items. Your argument is fail. As is your trollface.

[mdt]

None of my arguments are any more ridiculous than claiming that the WBL section doesn't apply because you took a feat.

:)

[Khrysaor]

mdt wrote:

Buri wrote:

TOZ wrote:

Show me the rule that says you can use 3000gp worth of adamantine to craft a weapon. :)

Blatant trolling is blatant. :)

3,000 gp is the cost modifier to make an adamantine weapon. However, if you could never purchase said adamantine to make the weapon then there would be no adamantine weapons. :)

Nonsense, the rules say there are adamantine weapons.

They just don't say you can buy the adamantine.

There are things in the game you can buy but not make (artifacts?). So why would you assume you can buy adamantine?

oh ya... PS.

PRD wrote:

Weapons and armor can be crafted using materials that possess innate special properties. If you make a suit of armor or weapon out of more than one special material, you get the benefit of only the most prevalent material. However, you can build a double weapon with each head made of a different special material.

[TOZ]

Can I take a feat that makes the alignment section not apply too?

[Buri]

I never said the WBL section doesn't apply. However, the method of determining starting gold is very clear. It's not my fault the crafting abilities are what they are and all that they require is a fraction of the cost to make an item. Paizo wrote it that way.

[Khrysaor]

TOZ wrote:

Can I take a feat that makes the alignment section not apply too?

No you get spells that do this for you.

[Khrysaor]

We can choose to debate like children for the next 4 pages to and make this another thread that people won't read nor will the devs come in to clear anything up. Or we can all read the rules and see that this can be supported but needs to be governed. For a final solution it would be nice to see craft feats changed so that you can't craft at half base costs and you can get items for the same price as anyone else can. This still provides the benefits of the get what you want when the store doesn't have it and yet removes any chance that you can gain increased wealth from the feats.

If you continue to choose the viewpoint you stand on, it solves the issue until gameplay begins and still leaves the room for this argument for the next decade. At least we'll have something to talk about til 2022.

[TOZ]

mdt wrote:

Or to commit evil acts and still be good.

Holy Word in a crowded marketplace.

[Rin No Yukihana]

why must we argue so much about wealth. if a theoretical PC theoretically spends 100 gold pieces on a theoretical masterwork pocket watch. do we count the pocket watch against his theoretical wealth? i beleive we shouldn't because all it does is tell time, which is a useless function when adventuring. if that is the case, than a smart PC wouldn't dare buy that pocket watch. despite it being a badass accessory.

[Khrysaor]

Rin No Yukihana wrote:

why must we argue so much about wealth. if a theoretical PC theoretically spends 100 gold pieces on a theoretical masterwork pocket watch. do we count the pocket watch against his theoretical wealth? i beleive we shouldn't because all it does is tell time, which is a useless function when adventuring. if that is the case, than a smart PC wouldn't dare buy that pocket watch. despite it being a badass accessory.

This is the case where wealth doesn't affect CR. Much like many of the utility items that can be made.

[mdt]

Rin No Yukihana wrote:

why must we argue so much about wealth. if a theoretical PC theoretically spends 100 gold pieces on a theoretical masterwork pocket watch. do we count the pocket watch against his theoretical wealth? i beleive we shouldn't because all it does is tell time, which is a useless function when adventuring. if that is the case, than a smart PC wouldn't dare buy that pocket watch. despite it being a badass accessory.

Depends, can the watch be sold if he get's into trouble and needs 50 GP? If it can, then yes, it's counted against his wealth, because it's an asset that can be sold.

[Maxximilius]

Everyone will be happy if everyone simply recognizes that the rules about WBL can be misinterpreted, when handled by inexperimented or munchkiny players...

[Ross Byers]

I removed some posts, and the replies to them. Veiled insults are still insults.

Flag it and move on.

[Rin No Yukihana]

Khrysaor wrote:

Rin No Yukihana wrote:

why must we argue so much about wealth. if a theoretical PC theoretically spends 100 gold pieces on a theoretical masterwork pocket watch. do we count the pocket watch against his theoretical wealth? i beleive we shouldn't because all it does is tell time, which is a useless function when adventuring. if that is the case, than a smart PC wouldn't dare buy that pocket watch. despite it being a badass accessory.

This is the case where wealth doesn't affect CR. Much like many of the utility items that can be made.

this is one point where it makes sense to not count that piece of wealth. but what benefit is there to starting higher level with crafting feats?

Desireable Items! starting gold lets you get the gear you want Ala Carte

Custom items. with a portion of my starting gold (even at full price), i can commission someone else to make the item for me

Increased Wealth? you sacrificed a feat you could have expended optimizing your primary focus so you could have some extra cash. the feat can't be revoked, but the items can be stolen, sundered, or suppressed. and item creation feats don't exactly double your wealth unless you have multiple. unless you literally are loaded with one type of item. even with CWI, you still have to aquire rings, wands, potions, scrolls, and maybe magical weapons or armor. plus, for the latter two, you have to aquire the masterwork weapons or armor you use as the base. i'd rate it as maybe +50% wealth at best. considering how much a group spends on utilitarian items to be split amongs them. i don't see this doubled wealth thing working as well as people think. and crafting already has a cost in sacrificed downtime that could be spent establishing connections, making social contracts, and similar stuff.

[Rin No Yukihana]

mdt wrote:

Rin No Yukihana wrote:

why must we argue so much about wealth. if a theoretical PC theoretically spends 100 gold pieces on a theoretical masterwork pocket watch. do we count the pocket watch against his theoretical wealth? i beleive we shouldn't because all it does is tell time, which is a useless function when adventuring. if that is the case, than a smart PC wouldn't dare buy that pocket watch. despite it being a badass accessory.

Depends, can the watch be sold if he get's into trouble and needs 50 GP? If it can, then yes, it's counted against his wealth, because it's an asset that can be sold.

but who is going to have the funds to afford the watch? merchants and nobles might already have them and not bother. other Adventurers would rather keep the funds, and most peasants can't afford them with thier silver piece a day without going multiple years into debt.

[mdt]

It's a trade good. Just like all the other trade goods listed. Like, a 50gp gem, or a 100gp gold statue or a 500gp tapestry.

EDIT : In other words, the game assumes people will buy/sell/trade for trade goods. If nobody can buy 150gp watch, then there are no items worth more than 1000gp, because it's not worth it to stock them, as nobody will ever buy them. So the PCs have to make all their own equipment.