*shrug*
Anything I can sell and buy a weapon, or I can trade to someone for a potion, is an asset and counts as wealth. Regardless of what you want to consider it.
EDIT : Now, if you had a magic tattoo that was put on you as a baby, that you can't remove or sell, and it always told you exactly what time it was where you are, then that would be something that would be fluff that didn't count as an asset, since you can't sell it, and it has no mechanical game benefit.
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Ooh!
I want to play in a game that allows pre-game crafting. I want to take craft(coins) and craft coins. I can buy the materials for each coin for 1/3rd gp, and make 1 gp. Woohoo! That's what, 256K gp to start the game with? YAY!
Ooh!
I want to play in a game that allows pre-game crafting. I want to take craft(coins) and craft coins. I can buy the materials for each coin for 1/3rd gp, and make 1 gp. Woohoo! That's what, 256K gp to start the game with? YAY!
As was said this is munchkin abuse and a GM should end this before it begins. This doesn't change the argument that crafting makes a character money outside of the wealth gained from treasures found.
It was also said that people considered crafting at level 1 to be offside as in a timeline reference it was day 1. This is also a very poor choice of argument as we just had a moderator come in and remove some posts. If you expect respect on forums give it in kind. Don't treat people like idiots.
But it's completely viable within your interpretation of the rules. Where as with my interpretation of the rules, it isn't allowed.
Take the total value of all items the character possesses. If they are outside the guidelines that group uses for WBL, then the character must be changed before being introduced. Items cost the same for all people.
If prices are relative, then my level 5 paladin who bought 1,000,000gp worth of gear for 4gp is completely legal. If prices are not relative, he indisputably outside the definition of WBL.
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that is why we have this thing called DM Discretion!
a player taking craft feats to get some extra cash and make stuff for the party is fine, but using Craft (Coins) to triple your wealth or even abusing relative prices to get 1,000,000 gold pieces worth of gear for only 4 gold pieces are abuses that a DM must stop. for it is a DM who has the final say on the rules.
it's okay to craft some items for the party and craft items for yourself. but even i have the common sense to dissalow abuses like this.
a DM is not a mindless robot, they are just as sentient as any of us. that sentience also comes with this thing called judgement. it's all you need. and i am not talking about a game mechanic.
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I'll just throw it again for teh fun : Leadership cohort with crafting feats. If possible, summoner. One feat, double WBL according to badly interpreted RAW. Oh, and Leadership again on the eidolon with leadership-taking cohorts of cohorts.
Some "players" will love it. Intelligent DMs on the other side will hate the previous players. Lots of items, weeee !... it's a shame no one will ever want to play with you. :(
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Depends on the situation. Since I've seen it happen a lot :
- Known temporary death leads to loot borrowing. Most useful items are taken from the dead, and given back when he's raised.
- Permanent deaths depend on the character who died and the situation. If given enough time, a trusted ally will be buried with his emblematic, roleplaying equipment ; like the fighter in full armor and with his maul. A total evil/neutral jerk would be buried with just enough to make the ceremony honorable for the dead... if he deserved an honorable ceremony. Otherwise, he would be buried with the minimum honours and his equipment used for the greater good or given later to the family - if they even want to have such souvenir. If not given enough time, items are looted, used if necessary, then given to the character's family or long-time friends when we catch up with the NPCs, usually the first thing we do when there is nothing more important or we're close enough to take the trip.
As a matter of facts, the DM accommodates material rewards, and if we still have our allie's equipment, we find no items, or less than usual. So yes, we can get over the WBL, it's just balances itself automatically with some game sessions...
Edit : Also, the book I just burned in the last session. All Arcane necromancy spells from level 1 to 7 in a single book, awesome ! Good thing I burned it without a thought once I detected evil and discovered the full content of the book, despite it costing several 10K at a time when we suffer to find equipment. Did I mention I'm playing a Paladin ?
Of course GMs should limit the opportunities for a character to craft. They are adventurers, more often than not. However, the benefit of the crafting abilities shouldn't be set aside. So, when they craft, let them get the full benefit of doing so. You wouldn't limit a character's ability to do damage in combat based simply on the argument they shouldn't be able to do so at a particular level even though their feats and other abilities say they should. Likewise, you wouldn't restrict a player from succeeding in a diplomacy check so long as they met the DC simply because you thought what they were trying to do what inappropriate for their level. Similarly, if a crafting character has the gp to invest in materials and the time to create the item he should be able to do so. As I said in the Scribe Scroll thread:
I'm not saying that's how it should be. If I came to you as a player and said "hey I'm taking this crafting feat" the reply I'd expect out of you would consist of two parts. First, how much time will you give my character to say he's been crafting. This may need discussion on the characters mindset and goals, etc and it may not. Second, are there any specific material restrictions? Mithral or adamantine may be in particular short supply and that's fine but tell me sooner rather than later.
Characters should limited in-game with situations that at least sound plausible. You owe it to your players to work out the details of the game-world with them. If no one cares to ask about crafting, no problem, but you shouldn't cheat them either because they want to use an option that a) the book says is totally legit and b) you didn't state earlier they couldn't take it. Regardless, at the end of the day, time permitting, and per RAW, I can craft a 200,000 gp item for 100,000 gp. That's just how it is.
No one is advocating a player literally doubling their wealth. RAW, crafting allows it. However, in the course of a characters life time this is not likely to happen. I can think of several ways to limit a character's ability to craft with in-game circumstances that aren't something as cheap as saying "that would let you exceed your WBL so no."
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I'll just throw it again for teh fun : Leadership cohort with crafting feats. If possible, summoner. One feat, double WBL according to badly interpreted RAW. Oh, and Leadership again on the eidolon with leadership-taking cohorts of cohorts.
Some "players" will love it. Intelligent DMs on the other side will hate the previous players. Lots of items, weeee !... it's a shame no one will ever want to play with you. :(
such a crafting guild set up by Cohort Chains would be a major target for random adventuring parties, assassin's guilds, paranoid armies, or greedy dragons.
attracting cohorts also takes multiple months and requires access to civilization. most individuals would be too frightened to join such a "Heretical" organization that might as well draw unwanted attention from any army.
and it's up to the DM whether or not a cohort is acceptable. whether he creates it himself or allows you to do so. the DM may always veto stuff he sees as unbalancing. there are only so many "Cohorts" and the followers would be slain en masse by the first few paranoid armies that spot them. with Few Exceptions, most of the "Cohorts" in the chain could be slain fairly easily by a greedy dragon.
Edit; Cohorts and Followers aren't mindless drones, they are living creatures too.
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If no one cares to ask about crafting, no problem, but you shouldn't cheat them either because they want to use an option that a) the book says is totally legit and b) you didn't state earlier they couldn't take it. Regardless, at the end of the day, time permitting, and per RAW, I can craft a 200,000 gp item for 100,000 gp. That's just how it is.
Except no one is advocating that the player should be told that crafting doesn't work this way after he took the feats ; but that a character shouldn't be allowed to use crafting this way from the beginning. There is a difference between a character built to be awesomely efficient in a specific situation and schtick, for which you can find dozens of weaknesses, and another that is built to suddenly become awesomely efficient for everything thanks to doubling any GP he finds into something else because the DM wasn't cautious enough.
It's not surprising that "Crafting" is one of the most broken things everyone says should be fully revised on a future update of Pathfinder ; and using Craft this way, or to get way more base GP-equivalent treasure on a character after level 1 isn't much different from AM BARBARIAN's RAGELANCEPOUNCE build. Raw but ridiculously broken and subject to the DM not making his job right before it's too late.
such a crafting guild set up by Cohort Chains would be a major target for random adventuring parties, assassin's guilds, paranoid armies, or greedy dragons.attracting cohorts also takes multiple months and requires access to civilization.
Though I'm aggreeing 100%, this is RAI, not RAW.
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Cohorts are statted and Geared As Heroic NPCs, meaning they Get NPC wealth and Elite Array for attributes. that balances out thier crafting if you add the fact that any extra gear is hand me downs from thier PC masters. they die easy. and it's hard for them to Get leadership scores at PC aptitudes because of thier "Reduced" Attributes. and extra cohorts gets wonky.
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Except no one is advocating that the player should be told that crafting doesn't work this way after he took the feats ; but that a character shouldn't be allowed to use crafting this way from the beginning. There is a difference between a character built to be awesomely efficient in a specific situation and schtick, for which you can find dozens of weaknesses, and another that is built to suddenly become awesomely efficient for everything thanks to doubling any GP he finds into something else because the DM wasn't cautious enough.
No character is good for all things at all times. It's just impossible if you follow RAW. If you find a case where the reverse is true, I'd say you missed something. Allowing someone the full benefit of the crafting abilities shouldn't break your game. If it does, you did it wrong. Regardless, a crafting character selling a 5,000 gp item and then using the money to make something else is fine but stumbling upon 2,500 gp to make a 5,000 gp item is not? That's absurd and you should just ban item crafting altogether.
It's not surprising that "Crafting" is one of the most broken things everyone says should be fully revised on a future update of Pathfinder ; and using Craft this way, or to get way more base GP-equivalent treasure on a character after level 1 isn't much different from AM BARBARIAN's RAGELANCEPOUNCE build. Raw but ridiculously broken and subject to the DM not making his job right before it's too late.
Imo, crafting is not broken. It actually makes sense in that I should be able to purchase the materials to make something cheaper than the amount it would be if I went and just bought it. From what I've seen on here GMs that complain about it are lazy and just don't want to deal with it. Not all materials should be expected to be available at all times. Not all times are suitable for crafting. Pick one and use it or use both if you're feeling feisty.
Per the mechanics of craft my 100,000 gp can be used to make a 200,000 gp item. If I sell it, I'm going to have somewhere the in the neighborhood of 100,000 gp and I'm right where I started. There is nothing unbalancing about this. Now, if crafting said I could use my 100k gp and make that 200k gp item and then improve upon it even further without investing more gold, that would be broken and even more so if I could sell it for half of it's "improved" value rather than the value of the original, but that's not the case.
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Buri said it better than i could. other drawbacks to cohorts include...
having to divide more shares of the loot. this cuts down either all PCs, or the guy with the cohort, depending on the party.
the cohort, being a Heroic NPC; is built with NPC wealth and the elite array. this makes them a lot squishier
your leadership score is penalized for each dead cohort, and cohorts start at the level which you attract them. the maximum being affected by your total leadership score.
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The parts about the DM being lazy, people doing it wrong, and the whole "if I start with 200K worth or item but sell them then I get the normal WBL, thus it's balanced" were good jokes. Actually laughed at the last one.
I guess my DM is just a lazy ass for not allowing crafting to get more than 10% benefit equivalent when comparing to WBL at a given time.
I guess we are also playing wrong... still wondering how we dare having awesomely good and flavorful games, where only having a given GP value isn't enough to craft items without hunting for components first, and where crafting doesn't provide the double WBL exploit ! How do we dare, I ask you.
I'm also sure a lot of people coming into the game with 200k worth of items when the normal WBL would be 100k will sell their items at some point, like, really ! This is totally what something like that would do with his awesome several-levels-higher and optimized equipment. Also, Santa Claus exists.
Was this one even a serious argument ? Because I can make a base class with full BAB and 9 level arcane and divine spellcasting with a bonus feat at each level, and justify it as being balanced because the player could decide not to cast spells during the day, plus take sub-par feats, and the DM could say no.
Taking crafting feats to get twice the normal starting WBL is broken like a lot other RAW but stupid, borked holes in the system, period. It's not a question of the DM being good or bad at his job, especially when we are speaking about 3.X Crafting rules, and this assumption is probably one of the most pedantic I've seen on these boards.
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The parts about the DM being lazy, people doing it wrong, and the whole "if I start with 200K worth or item but sell them then I get the normal WBL, thus it's balanced" were good jokes. Actually laughed at the last one. Well, they are.
I guess my DM is just a lazy ass for not allowing crafting to get more than 10% benefit equivalent when comparing to WBL at a given time. Yup, he sure is. Makes no sense a character can't swing his hammer on his anvil because some counter he can't see has reached it's limit. However, he can't swing his hammer if he doesn't have the materials at the time, or because he's swinging a sword or casting a spell so a baddy doesn't kill him or his friends. No, that would make too much sense, right?
I guess we are also playing wrong... still wondering how we dare having awesomely good and flavorful games, where only having a given GP value isn't enough to craft items without hunting for components first, and where crafting doesn't provide the double WBL exploit ! How do we dare, I ask you. Your games may be fun overall but you don't utilize the crafting mechanic as it's presented in the book which is the crux of my point. Thus, we have no middle ground and a reasonable debate can not happen here.
I'm also sure a lot of people coming into the game with 200k worth of items when the normal WBL would be 100k will sell their items at some point, like, really ! This is totally what something like that would do with his awesome several-levels-higher and optimized equipment. Also, Santa Claus exists. If that's what the GM allows, he should be prepared to handle it.
Was this one even a serious argument ? Because I can make a base class with full BAB and 9 level arcane and divine spellcasting with a bonus feat at each level, and justify it as being balanced because the player could decide not to cast spells during the day, plus take sub-par feats, and the DM could say no. Such a class does not exist and is useless in a RAW discussion. Which I thought we were having until you presented your argument in the light of "this is my experience and because you don't play the same way you're a joke". All I'm interesting in is discussing RAW and trying to get some feedback to see if the consequences of RAW are intended where crafting is concerned and not how your GM plays his games.Taking crafting feats to get twice the normal starting WBL is broken like a lot other RAW but stupid, borked holes in the system, period. It's not a question of the DM being good or bad at his job, especially when we are speaking about 3.X Crafting rules, and this assumption is probably one of the most pedantic I've seen on these boards. I never said that a character should gain twice the WBL. This is impossible since WBL is a measure of gold the character gets and not a limit on the overall market value of his gear. You are inherently limited in your gear options by this limit but it doesn't change that WBL is an amount of gold rather than a value limit.
In short, that's how you play your games. It's not RAW. I presented a RAW situation and asking if that was what the dev's intended. I don't know what you hope to gain through debate. RAW is what it is. RAW it works. You're not going to get me to say "oh I guess you're right and I was wrong all along." I'm pointing out what the book says is legit. You can't refute that and I'm not going to change my stance on the matter. Nothing is wrong with crafting as is. The mechanic is there. The amount of gold a starting character is there in black and white as well. It is up to your GM to limit its use and effect in game. Maybe you should get your GM to actually GM instead of passing the buck off on his players.
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magic item prices are quadratic and the bonuses are linear. once you have the "Big 6" anything else is just icing on the cake. usually, halving the price of a "Big 6" item affords you somewhere around an extra +1 bonus with that item.
Magic Weapon
Magic Armor
Deflection Item
Resistance Item
Natural Armor Item
Attribute Boosting Item
is the few extra +1's really a problem? those items can be sundered, stolen, disjunctioned, or even suppressed.
this is basically all we are fighting over, a few extra +1's.
using the Craft Wondrous Item feat as justification for double gold coming in at level 10 is easily dealt with by two methods...
"Okay, since the other characters don't have that feat, and you obviously spent an extra 128 days crafting, your character will be joining them in 128 days with his extra gear. For the rest of you, let's start this adventure..."
Or
"Okay, you've got CGI and 64k in cash. You want to double it? How do you think you earned 64k in cash for your just-used-to-be-an-NPC character in the first place?"
Both are perfectly balanced.
The key thing behind Crafting is two fold:
1) make sure the benefits are spread around so everyone profits. Double your wealth is more powerful then any other feat out there. If one person is benefiting more then others and doesn't want to equalize the benefits, you now have to take GM action...because the crafting rules ARE imbalanced.
2) Enforce the 8 hours/day time limit, and make sure the character is unavailable for adventuring during those days. This includes random encounters. Any interruption of his work also ruins a day's labor. FOr instance, in the newest AP, during the trek over the pole, such a character should routinely have a day's work spoiled by random encounters on the caravan jostling his wagon and distracting him...and should get no xp while the rest of the PC's focus their efforts on making xp, not items.
this is a 3.5ish rule, where instead of giving up xp to make items, they are choosing to forgo experience. Note that in PF you don't earn extra xp by being lower level then the rest of your party. XP is by encounter, not adjusted by character level.
3) Make a House Rule that harkens back to the exhausting, demanding nature of magical item construction. Someone who crafts gains the exhausted condition, regains it AND takes Con damage every time they cast a spell after crafting. This means that they won't want to adventure after crafting, and indeed, are incredibly vulnerable, which is the tradeoff for their making toys.
Note that 2) and 3) should only be enforced where Crafting does not benefit the whole party. Obviously there needs to be a tradeoff if the character is doubling his gold...he's forgoing encounter xp and gold from it, if any. If the whole party benefits from Crafting, then obviously the Crafter should benefit from encounters where the gear he is providing everyone comes into play.
==Aelryinth
magic item prices are quadratic and the bonuses are linear. once you have the "Big 6" anything else is just icing on the cake. usually, halving the price of a "Big 6" item affords you somewhere around an extra +1 bonus with that item.
Magic Weapon
Magic Armor
Deflection Item
Resistance Item
Natural Armor Item
Attribute Boosting Itemis the few extra +1's really a problem? those items can be sundered, stolen, disjunctioned, or even suppressed.
this is basically all we are fighting over, a few extra +1's.
At 10th level, the base WBL is 64k. Let's double this to 128k.
+64k means you can now improve your AC by approximately +7, making you nigh-unhittable.
You can take all your +2 and +4 stat boosters to +6.
You can own a +5 weapon, like a Sun Sword, that doesn't exceed caster level 10, that normally wouldn't be affordable until 15th or so. Indeed, you can now own a +3 weapon with +2 in kickers, instead of normally a +2 weapon.
Double wealth can really throw encounter design out of whack. +1's stacking are what the game is made of. While no one item will destroy the balance because of caster level limitations, the cumulative effect will have a major effect on encounters.
==Aelryinth
It's 'history' the other characters don't have. It's balanced. They spent the time adventuring and gaining levels. he's got to catch up.
==Aelryinth
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At 10th level, the base WBL is 64k. Let's double this to 128k.+64k means you can now improve your AC by approximately +7, making you nigh-unhittable.
You can take all your +2 and +4 stat boosters to +6.
You can own a +5 weapon, like a Sun Sword, that doesn't exceed caster level 10, that normally wouldn't be affordable until 15th or so. Indeed, you can now own a +3 weapon with +2 in kickers, instead of normally a +2 weapon.
Double wealth can really throw encounter design out of whack. +1's stacking are what the game is made of. While no one item will destroy the balance because of caster level limitations, the cumulative effect will have a major effect on encounters.
==Aelryinth
i doubt an CWI can do all of that at once. sounds like hyperbole. and when you factor items outside of your feats. those count full price and not half. you need a lot more than just CWI.
using the Craft Wondrous Item feat as justification for double gold coming in at level 10 is easily dealt with by two methods... No one is saying this. Your starting gold is your starting gold. Craft says you can create things at half cost. However, your GM should put limits on this as is appropriate for the campaign in question. Otherwise, the astute crafter will simply pocket a fair amount of starting gold and start crafting once game play starts and continue to do so as the story allows.
The key thing behind Crafting is two fold:
1) make sure the benefits are spread around so everyone profits. Double your wealth is more powerful then any other feat out there. If one person is benefiting more then others and doesn't want to equalize the benefits, you now have to take GM action...because the crafting rules ARE imbalanced. Saying if one character gains an ability then all must benefit from it is unbalancing, not the other way around. By that logic, because Jim's character took Toughness, I should gain some extra HP as well. That's patently false. Intraparty dynamics and economics like this should be determined as the party requires and not some general rule.
2) Enforce the 8 hours/day time limit, and make sure the character is unavailable for adventuring during those days. This includes random encounters. Any interruption of his work also ruins a day's labor. FOr instance, in the newest AP, during the trek over the pole, such a character should routinely have a day's work spoiled by random encounters on the caravan jostling his wagon and distracting him...and should get no xp while the rest of the PC's focus their efforts on making xp, not items. This makes total sense and works in-game and happens to be RAW anyway except for the total loss of work portion. You gain only half benefit if distracted. You don't lose all. Also, 8 hours is the daily limit anyway. How could you possibly gain more?
this is a 3.5ish rule, where instead of giving up xp to make items, they are choosing to forgo experience. Note that in PF you don't earn extra xp by being lower level then the rest of your party. XP is by encounter, not adjusted by character level.
You can own a +5 weapon, like a Sun Sword, that doesn't exceed caster level 10, that normally wouldn't be affordable until 15th or so. Indeed, you can now own a +3 weapon with +2 in kickers, instead of normally a +2 weapon.
The highest enhancement bonus a 10th level crafter can confer on an item is +3, not +5.
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It's 'history' the other characters don't have. It's balanced. They spent the time adventuring and gaining levels. he's got to catch up.
==Aelryinth
the reason those other characters don't have "history" is because thier "history" was adventuring and gaining levels. a level 10 character doesn't just fall from the sky. they were likely a former adventurer who crafted during thier downtime. it's not like Dragon Quest IX where PCs spontaneously fall from the sky and magically join your party. not every PC has the same history or comes from the same enviroment. and not every new PC is a first level penniless beggar.
I would also like to point out that magic item creation and sales is the single most profitable profession in the game.
A level 5 magic-user should focus on making magic items that cost 1000 gp each and every day. that's because that's the limit of what he can make, and so he should make them, and then sell them to people like the PC's at full price.
There is no Craft 'skill' that can potentially generate 500 gp in clear profit each and every day. It means that no spellcaster of level 5 or higher should ever participate in anything that doesn't generate 500 gp in clear profit per day, because magic item construction is that much more lucrative.
one year of crafting, 180k in clear profit as long as you make items worth at least 1000 gp or a direct multiple thereof every day. A level 5 caster focused on making and selling minor items should be hideously wealthy by any measure.
It is this 2:1, and 500 gp/day factor, that totally imbalances magical item construction. In real terms, no caster should EVER adventure...for no risk, they can make 180k a year, free and clear.
The pricing of items should be based on caster level (which restricts what you can make.
Picture the situation before you. There's dozens of level 5 casters pumping out wondrous items worth at least 1000 gp, each and every day. What would logically happen?
The price of low level items would tank. The price would be the value of a day's labor (magical crafting) + the cost to create. This would only be amplified by the fact magical items don't wear out and persist forever.
Thus,in a 'real world', cheap magic items would basically be cost + a day's labor, tops. The market would be flooded with them.
On the other hand, a 12th level caster can make +6 stat items. A 15th level caster can make +5 items. While their per day limit is the same as a level 5, their POTENTIAL is far, far higher and distinctly uncommon. Price should reflect that there are far fewer of these casters, there is immense demand for their talents, and using their power takes long periods of time, restricting the amount of high level stuff that they can make (or be commissioned to make).
The question then is to decide what is the appropriate pay for 8 hours of a level 5 mage's time, and what is the pay for 8 hours of a 17th level caster's time who is no doubt engaged in making items of the foremost potency. A caster has NO reason to engage in making an object at minimum caster level if it would cost him per day pay...if you want Tenser the Archmage to forge something, he's going to charge you the rate of a level 20 Archmage, even if it only takes a level 5 mage to make it...that's what his TIME is worth. Too many people fixing on the item, when the time of the creator is the really important thing.
Once you've determined the scale, then you can start on 'fixing' the economics of item crafting.
=============
Corollary: There's very little reason to any caster of level 5 or higher to ever adventure for money.]
Even if you want to assume a 10-50% commission above cost for an intermediary or guild, a level 5 caster can make 250 gp/day. That's 90k a year for doing risk-free work, which by the rules exceeds the WBL of a level 10 character.
by ignoring the time/level factor of high levels being required to create high level gear, the economics of crafting become totally borked.
===Aelryinth
the reason those other characters don't have "history" is because thier "history" was adventuring and gaining levels. a level 10 character doesn't just fall from the sky. they were likely a former adventurer who crafted during thier downtime. it's not like Dragon Quest IX where PCs spontaneously fall from the sky and magically join your party. not every PC has the same history or comes from the same enviroment. and not every new PC is a first level penniless beggar.It's 'history' the other characters don't have. It's balanced. They spent the time adventuring and gaining levels. he's got to catch up.
==Aelryinth
As you are ignoring, it's balanced.
Sure, he adventured.
The others adventured MORE. 128 days more, to be precise.
Either reflect the value of that time, or item creation magnifies in power.
==Aelryinth
You can own a +5 weapon, like a Sun Sword, that doesn't exceed caster level 10, that normally wouldn't be affordable until 15th or so. Indeed, you can now own a +3 weapon with +2 in kickers, instead of normally a +2 weapon.The highest enhancement bonus a 10th level crafter can confer on an item is +3, not +5.
You are correct.
But magic weapons are rated on 'enhancement' and 'non-enhancement' bonuses.
A Sun sword is priced as a +5 weapon, but is only a +2 as far as requirements go, so someone a mere 6th level could create it.
I used +5 as the cost factor, not the caster level limit. Note that I made a later example of a +3 weapon with a +2 character...which follows the level 10 caster level limitation.
there are no CL 10 caster requirements on a Sun Sword other then a scroll for the appropriate spell. Caster levels mean nothing to magic weapons as far as cost, only for saves.
==Aelryinth
...using the Craft Wondrous Item feat as justification for double gold coming in at level 10 is easily dealt with by two methods... No one is saying this. Your starting gold is your starting gold. Craft says you can create things at half cost. However, your GM should put limits on this as is appropriate for the campaign in question. Otherwise, the astute crafter will simply pocket a fair amount of starting gold and start crafting once game play starts and continue to do so as the story allows.
The key thing behind Crafting is two fold:
1) make sure the benefits are spread around so everyone profits. Double your wealth is more powerful then any other feat out there. If one person is benefiting more then others and doesn't want to equalize the benefits, you now have to take GM action...because the crafting rules ARE imbalanced. Saying if one character gains an ability then all must benefit from it is unbalancing, not the other way around. By that logic, because Jim's character took Toughness, I should gain some extra HP as well. That's patently false. Intraparty dynamics and economics like this should be determined as the party requires and not some general rule.
2) Enforce the 8 hours/day time limit, and make sure the character is unavailable for adventuring during those days. This includes random encounters. Any interruption of his work also ruins a day's labor. FOr instance, in the newest AP, during the trek over the pole, such a character should routinely have a day's work spoiled by random encounters on the caravan jostling his wagon and distracting him...and should get no xp while the rest of the PC's focus their efforts on making xp, not items. This makes total sense and works in-game and happens to be RAW anyway except for the total loss of work portion. You gain only half benefit if distracted. You don't lose all. Also, 8 hours is the daily limit anyway. How could you possibly gain more?
this is a 3.5ish rule, where instead of giving up xp to
the rule is actually that you can do 4 hours of crafting a day while adventuring.
the original rule is that you must have 8 hours of uninterrupted time to do crafting. If it was meaningfully interrupted, you got nothing done that way, not just 'half'.
As for feats that benefit the party, this is a complete acknowledgement that Crafting magical items is far, far more powerful then other feats. Note that a +2 Con item that takes 4 days to make is more powerful then Toughness, and the Crafter can do far, far more then that.
Also, Toughness does benefit the caster...it makes the fighter standing between him and the beastie more of a wall, which keeps it way so he can kill it. CWI is simply far, far better, and this must be reflected in the game, or you have complete imbalance.
==Aelryinth
I would also like to point out that magic item creation and sales is the single most profitable profession in the game.
A level 5 magic-user should focus on making magic items that cost 1000 gp each and every day. that's because that's the limit of what he can make, and so he should make them, and then sell them to people like the PC's at full price.
In order to begin crafting need to have purchased the materials to do so. Where is he getting this money? Where are the party members getting their money to enable the crafter to do this? Why is the party doing this in the first place? All valid questions. In general, when a PC sells an item it only sells for half it's worth. If a PC doesn't agree to buy it at full cost, the crafter isn't going to find a merchant to buy it at full price.
There is no Craft 'skill' that can potentially generate 500 gp in clear profit each and every day. It means that no spellcaster of level 5 or higher should ever participate in anything that doesn't generate 500 gp in clear profit per day, because magic item construction is that much more lucrative.
one year of crafting, 180k in clear profit as long as you make items worth at least 1000 gp or a direct multiple thereof every day. A level 5 caster focused on making and selling minor items should be hideously wealthy by any measure.
Again, where is he getting the money to craft 24/7 and who is he selling it to? It certainly isn't a party of level 5 adventurers and no merchant is going to buy his wares at full cost. They wouldn't make a profit.
It is this 2:1, and 500 gp/day factor, that totally imbalances magical item construction. In real terms, no caster should EVER adventure...for no risk, they can make 180k a year, free and clear.
The pricing of items should be based on caster level (which restricts what you can make.
Picture the situation before you. There's dozens of level 5 casters pumping out wondrous items worth at least 1000 gp, each and every day. What would logically happen?
How are they doing this? They don't get the crafting materials for free.
The price of low level items would tank. The price would be the value of a day's labor (magical crafting) + the cost to create. This would only be amplified by the fact magical items don't wear out and persist forever.
Thus,in a 'real world', cheap magic items would basically be cost + a day's labor, tops. The market would be flooded with them.
On the other hand, a 12th level caster can make +6 stat items. A 15th level caster can make +5 items. While their per day limit is the same as a level 5, their POTENTIAL is far, far higher and distinctly uncommon. Price should reflect that there are far fewer of these casters, there is immense demand for their talents, and using...
A 12th level caster can only create a +4 item, maximum. 15th level for +5 is correct.
On what page does it state "Items crafted with feats only count for their crafted value for a characters wealth"?
If it doesn't say that, this isn't RAW, it's rules as you are interpreting them.
there actually are risks involved. those risks are cursed items and wasted materials. there are also the usual associated risks of going to the bazaar to hunt down components.
You are now trying to invoke role-playing and GM fiat into the item crafting process.
Vette all my comps through the guild and inquire what the odds are for 'cursed' items, which either must have a chance all casters bear, or is GM Fiat.
===Aelryinth
the rule is actually that you can do 4 hours of crafting a day while adventuring.
the original rule is that you must have 8 hours of uninterrupted time to do crafting. If it was meaningfully interrupted, you got nothing done that way, not just 'half'.
As for feats that benefit the party, this is a complete acknowledgement that Crafting magical items is far, far more powerful then other feats. Note that a +2 Con item that takes 4 days to make is more powerful then Toughness, and the Crafter can do far, far more then that.
Also, Toughness does benefit the caster...it makes the fighter standing between him and the beastie more of a wall, which keeps it way so he can kill it. CWI is simply far, far better, and this must be reflected in the game, or you have complete imbalance.
==Aelryinth
What "original" rule? This is what the Magic Item Creation section says:
The caster can work for up to 8 hours each day. He cannot rush the process by working longer each day, but the days need not be consecutive, and the caster can use the rest of his time as he sees fit. If the caster is out adventuring, he can devote 4 hours each day to item creation, although he nets only 2 hours' worth of work. This time is not spent in one continuous period, but rather during lunch, morning preparation, and during watches at night. If time is dedicated to creation, it must be spent in uninterrupted 4-hour blocks. This work is generally done in a controlled environment, where distractions are at a minimum, such as a laboratory or shrine. Work that is performed in a distracting or dangerous environment nets only half the amount of progress (just as with the adventuring caster).
On what page does it state "Items crafted with feats only count for their crafted value for a characters wealth"?
If it doesn't say that, this isn't RAW, it's rules as you are interpreting them.
It's logical and fair.
Consider: You recover 10k in loot, each yourself and a friend.
You spend your 10k making a 20k item. He spends his 10k buying a 10k item.
If you thence penalize the party by cutting back on loot, you are still getting double value for the stuff you make as opposed to the guy without the crafter feat, who will suddenly be hurting for WBL.
Thus, fairness. What this fails to take into account is the ten days of time you spent making that item. Unless the other character agrees to just sit around on his ass for ten days, the Crafter should be missing out on something, like, oh, xp, extra loot, and levels. He isn't.
==Aelryinth
Your GM is also going to stare at you blankly until you figure it out if you tell him you bought 1,000,000gp worth of items for 4gp. This is no where close to what I've said or suggested. Gratuitous exaggeration doesn't help argument. If you'd also like to throw terms like 'relative' around you need to be sure people know what they are relative to. You're arguing WBL so as it stands your statements are not in the order you want for relativity.
Your argument is that an item counts against your WBL depending on how much you pay for it.
Then my example is perfectly valid. For you to say it isn't is implying that your rule doesn't work.
My interpretation of the rule perfectly accounts for this kind of example by saying that WBL is a measure used to determine the contribution of possessions to a character's power, not money to be spent on a shopping spree.
On what page does it state "Items crafted with feats only count for their crafted value for a characters wealth"?
If it doesn't say that, this isn't RAW, it's rules as you are interpreting them.
It's logical and fair.
Consider: You recover 10k in loot, each yourself and a friend.
You spend your 10k making a 20k item. He spends his 10k buying a 10k item.
Thus, fairness. what this fails to take into account is the ten days of time you spent making that item. Unless the other character agrees to just sit around on his ass for ten days, the Crafter should be missing out on something. He isn't.
==Aelryinth
So, you don't have a page number?
People are saying that this is RAW. I want the page number where it's explicitly stated. Without that page number, this is only rules as interpreted.
On what page does it state "Items crafted with feats only count for their crafted value for a characters wealth"?
If it doesn't say that, this isn't RAW, it's rules as you are interpreting them.
I'll show you that if you show me where it says the WBL chart is a representation of total item value rather than gold.
Per RAW, you get a certain amount of gold to start. You can use this gold to purchase items and you pocket the rest since it is unspent. Crafting says you can craft an item at 1/2 or 1/3 the base cost of the item. End of story.
As you adventure you encounter more treasure and gold. The crafter can use this gold to create an item that is worth twice or three times the amount he has, depending on if the item in question is mundane or magical. It's how the crafting abilities work.
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the reason those other characters don't have "history" is because thier "history" was adventuring and gaining levels. a level 10 character doesn't just fall from the sky. they were likely a former adventurer who crafted during thier downtime. it's not like Dragon Quest IX where PCs spontaneously fall from the sky and magically join your party. not every PC has the same history or comes from the same enviroment. and not every new PC is a first level penniless beggar.It's 'history' the other characters don't have. It's balanced. They spent the time adventuring and gaining levels. he's got to catch up.
==Aelryinth
As you are ignoring, it's balanced.
Sure, he adventured.
The others adventured MORE. 128 days more, to be precise.Either reflect the value of that time, or item creation magnifies in power.
==Aelryinth
not all adventurers have the same amount of adventuring time. the New PC could be a veteran adventure who adventured when the other PCs were still "children". and could have crafted during his hiatus as an NPC (Crafting as a previously unexplained level 10 NPC in the background When the others were like level 5) and joined the 10th level PCs at 10th level.
the rule is actually that you can do 4 hours of crafting a day while adventuring.
the original rule is that you must have 8 hours of uninterrupted time to do crafting. If it was meaningfully interrupted, you got nothing done that way, not just 'half'.
As for feats that benefit the party, this is a complete acknowledgement that Crafting magical items is far, far more powerful then other feats. Note that a +2 Con item that takes 4 days to make is more powerful then Toughness, and the Crafter can do far, far more then that.
Also, Toughness does benefit the caster...it makes the fighter standing between him and the beastie more of a wall, which keeps it way so he can kill it. CWI is simply far, far better, and this must be reflected in the game, or you have complete imbalance.
==Aelryinth
What "original" rule? This is what the Magic Item Creation section says:
The caster can work for up to 8 hours each day. He cannot rush the process by working longer each day, but the days need not be consecutive, and the caster can use the rest of his time as he sees fit. If the caster is out adventuring, he can devote 4 hours each day to item creation, although he nets only 2 hours' worth of work. This time is not spent in one continuous period, but rather during lunch, morning preparation, and during watches at night. If time is dedicated to creation, it must be spent in uninterrupted 4-hour blocks. This work is generally done in a controlled environment, where distractions are at a minimum, such as a laboratory or shrine. Work that is performed in a distracting or dangerous environment nets only half the amount of progress (just as with the adventuring caster).
The original rule stems from 3.5, which was that you needed 8 hours of basically uninterrupted time to forge an item. If there was any meaningful interruption, you lost that entire's day work. Like,say, combat, or any random encounter that drew you away from the careful, solemn mindset needed for item creation.
the PF revision is a nod to adventurers who want to get SOME benefit out of crafting, in the face of the rapid leveling which most AP's require. (Cite: The Carrion Crown, which basically is a run from one dungeon to the next, levelling madly the whole time. No Item Creation time is going to be available.)
As soon as you allow the PF ruleset AND give a Crafter the required time, you get into the sorts of imbalance problems that have been noted on previous pages.
500 gp a day is 62.5 gp/hour. Unless you can everyone ELSE in the party something to do which is worth 125 gp/day, the Crafter is going to pull ahead 'while adventuring'. If there actually is any down time, he's +1000 GP ahead while the rest of the party does nothing.
Find a balance for that. The PF rules aren't about balance, they are about being able to use the feat when originally you could not.
==Aelryinth
So, you don't have a page number?
People are saying that this is RAW. I want the page number where it's explicitly stated. Without that page number, this is only rules as interpreted.
Here is the quote that says I can turn 10k gp into a 20k gp magical item:
Magic supplies for items are always half of the base price in gp. For many items, the market price equals the base price. Armor, shields, weapons, and items with value independent of their magically enhanced properties add their item cost to the market price. The item cost does not influence the base price (which determines the cost of magic supplies), but it does increase the final market price.
not all adventurers have the same amount of adventuring time. the New PC could be a veteran adventure who adventured when the other PCs were still "children". and could have crafted during his hiatus as an NPC (Crafting as a previously unexplained level 10 NPC in the background When the others were like level 5) and joined the 10th level PCs at 10th level.the reason those other characters don't have "history" is because thier "history" was adventuring and gaining levels. a level 10 character doesn't just fall from the sky. they were likely a former adventurer who crafted during thier downtime. it's not like Dragon Quest IX where PCs spontaneously fall from the sky and magically join your party. not every PC has the same history or comes from the same enviroment. and not every new PC is a first level penniless beggar.It's 'history' the other characters don't have. It's balanced. They spent the time adventuring and gaining levels. he's got to catch up.
==Aelryinth
As you are ignoring, it's balanced.
Sure, he adventured.
The others adventured MORE. 128 days more, to be precise.Either reflect the value of that time, or item creation magnifies in power.
==Aelryinth
Excuse me?
you just 'gave' your character EXTRA TIME, which is exactly what I was arguing before. You ignore the value of extra time for all the other characters, but give it to the crafter willy-nilly?
If I craft a rogue who is also a veteran who 'took a break', can I double his WBL by saying he's been robbing the nobles of the city blind for no xp this whole time?
Can I say the fighter has been competing in sanctioned duels and gladiatorial games and training nobles for odious sums and double his WBL? It's as valid as your example.
No?
Then you can't do this and be balanced.
==Aelryinth
It does not, however, say that the crafted item only counts for half when calculating the characters current wealth, which is what Irontruth was asking for.
Here is the quote that says I can turn 10k gp into a 20k gp magical item:
This is an innately imbalanced argument, because of equal splits of loot.
If it counts as a full value item for WBL, it's going to rapidly bork the WBL limits, which means the DM cuts back on wealth in loot.
This penalizes EVERYONE ELSE, not the Crafter. He'll still be at or ahead of the curve, as he foists his 'penalty' off on everyone else.
If you do NOT do this, and let everyone else have WBL, the crafter will be ahead of the curve.
So, pick your poison: Penalize everyone else, or let the Crafter break the WBL.
==Aelryinth
The original rule stems from 3.5, which was that you needed 8 hours of basically uninterrupted time to forge an item. If there was any meaningful interruption, you lost that entire's day work. Like,say, combat, or any random encounter that drew you away from the careful, solemn mindset needed for item creation.
the PF revision is a nod to adventurers who want to get SOME benefit out of crafting, in the face of the rapid leveling which most AP's require. (Cite: The Carrion Crown, which basically is a run from one dungeon to the next, levelling madly the whole time. No Item Creation time is going to be available.)
As soon as you allow the PF ruleset AND give a Crafter the required time, you get into the sorts of imbalance problems that have been noted on previous pages.
500 gp a day is 62.5 gp/hour. Unless you can everyone ELSE in the party something to do which is worth 125 gp/day, the Crafter is going to pull ahead 'while adventuring'. If there actually is any down time, he's +1000 GP ahead while the rest of the party does nothing.
Find a balance for that. The PF rules aren't about balance, they are about being able to use the feat when originally you could not.
==Aelryinth
All I can say to that is that this is Pathfinder, not 3.5. Pathfinder may technically be 3.5 compatible because it's based on the same D20 system, but there's a lot of nuance between the two. If you mix and match rules together you eventually don't have either but some amalgamation of the two. Pathfinder works as is. Why does everyone deserve the same economic ability? Should a party with a paladin let everyone smit evil? Should a party with a cleric let everyone channel energy? Should a party with a character who took Rich Parents let everyone start at 900 gp? I highly doubt it. If a character is nice enough to do things for other players that's awesome. However, if the other characters want guaranteed access to that ability they should invest in it themselves.
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PCs don't spontaneously fall from the sky and magically join the party. Pathfinder is NOT Dragon Quest IX, Sentinels of the Starry Skies.
in DQ9, you have a feature in a specific tavern where you can pull the exact ally you need from behind the curtains, which the exact customization you desire. essentially, the Exact PC you need for your group in a sense, magically falls from the sky and joins your party.
lets look at pathfinder, a lot of people try to replicate this feature, but every PC has a backstory. and the backstories don't always need to be connected.
if you want PCs to fall from the sky and magically come into existance without a properly established backstory or ties. get yourself a DS and play Dragon Quest IX, Sentinels of the Starry skies. because pathfinder, PCs aren't assumed to spontaneously fall from the sky and magically become allies. a character is a character. they have previous experiences too.