How was the Wealth by Level chart constructed?

[Khrysaor]

Bob_Loblaw wrote:

What if you're an elf that lives for hundreds of years? How much time do you have now?

What I find interesting is that most of the arguing is basically this:

"Crafting doesn't let you exceed WBL by much"
"Yes it does but as GM you should make sure that it doesn't exceed your WBL by much."

This is essentially the same as the other thread. The only real difference is that one group of us thinks that the book makes it clear and the other group doesn't. The funny thing is that everyone is in agreement that all the characters should have "roughly equal" wealth and that the GM needs to use his best judgment to flat out tell the players they don't get to abuse the system.

Since we're all in agreement, what really is the point of contention?

No it's been;

'Crafting does not, in any way, let you exceed WBL at all and is supported by RAW but needs a dev to come in here to quash any disbelief'
vs
'Crafting inherently affects wealth and by association WBL. As such it is GM discretion to keep things balanced.'

This is why this is now page 3 again and someone else will contest what I say. I'm still waiting on the quote that says characters joining post level 1 start at Day 1 in their adventuring career as others were implying.

[Bob_Loblaw]

What I'm seeing is that some say it's hardcoded in the system and that others say it's not but we all are going to use GM adjudication to keep things in check no matter what.

No one has ever said that characters don't have a past, at any level. What has been said is that regardless of the past, all the characters start with relatively equal footing. I know that with myself, and probably mdt and others, if a player came to me and said, "hey Bob, I know I have 3000 gold to spend but what I want will run me 3100 gold, is that cool?" I would most likely say (depending on what it is exactly), "yeah sure, I can deal with that."

We are all putting a restriction on how much a character's history impacts his wealth. You've just moved it a little farther to the left than we have.

[Khrysaor]

Bob_Loblaw wrote:

What I'm seeing is that some say it's hardcoded in the system and that others say it's not but we all are going to use GM adjudication to keep things in check no matter what.

No one has ever said that characters don't have a past, at any level. What has been said is that regardless of the past, all the characters start with relatively equal footing. I know that with myself, and probably mdt and others, if a player came to me and said, "hey Bob, I know I have 3000 gold to spend but what I want will run me 3100 gold, is that cool?" I would most likely say (depending on what it is exactly), "yeah sure, I can deal with that."

We are all putting a restriction on how much a character's history impacts his wealth. You've just moved it a little farther to the left than we have.

When I first joined the other thread it was to say that Rule 0 exists so GM's have the final say. Everyone yelled at me that rule 0 is GM fiat and they were going to deal with it by saying no, which for some reason isn't GM fiat. I've also been the person arguing that if you let munchkins get away with being munchkins you're not doing your job. The response to that was 'I shouldn't have to restrict anything. RAW says I'm right.' I then went on to give a plethora of examples on how a character could exceed the guideline that is WBL using the RAW. I never once said you had to let a player do this. Guilty by association apparently means that if I don't agree with one side I must be a munchkin looking to break the system. Some people chose to stick more adamantly to the non-variance of the WBL table, and state that crafting feats do not affect WBL when clearly they do during in-game play. I merely stated that a player is justified in saying that, as a crafter, he was capable of increasing his wealth beyond WBL through his crafting means. There is nothing in the RAW to stop this as in-game use shows it can be done and by using deductive reasoning it can also be assumed a character has had the ability to use his feats during his career. Everyone then cried that this isn't fair to non-crafters and this isn't the intent of the craft feats. Then there was a million quotes thrown around about this rule and that rule and this guideline and that guideline. All the while never answering to the fact that craft feats, inherently, increase a characters wealth over time.

You misconstrue the argument further by now backing off of the original intent in hopes that the debate ends. If you want it over, stop responding without some form of legitimate backing just like everyone else. Find the rules that say you cannot do this. If you don't want to hear me rant don't post something that I will in turn find the rule to shut it down. There is nothing stopping crafters beyond their GM. They exist outside of the norm. They are above the average by any means of determining wealth. This is entirely due to telling crafters that they can make items for half the amount it will cost anyone else to buy them.

Until the craft feats themselves change to something along the lines of, crafting at full cost whereby the only benefit of crafting is getting the exact item you want, there is no argument to stop them. This is one of the many grey areas in the game that rule 0 empowers GM's to solve.

To say that you are putting restrictions on how much a character's history impacts his wealth and then saying everyone has equal money, eliminates the wealth bonus that comes from crafting. You've also equally destroyed the other benefit of getting custom items at character creation where everyone is equal. I am not on any wing. I read the rules. I interpret the rules. I understand the rules. I try to explain them time and time again, with references and examples, but you guys keep misinterpreting my meaning and throw more munchkins at my door.

To your example of a character coming and wanting more than their WBL, if they were not a crafter, I would allow them a percentage based on how they tell their backstory. This would still be a meagre amount unless the backstory was elaborate and entirely applicable. Maybe they have a rich background and could be deserving of the wealthy character rules in the DMG. If they were a crafter, I would take into account their level and what the WBL is. I would read all those other percentages to try to figure out where the items they found could would be relative to the amount of gold they could have had to craft with. If this was a munchkin only making items that benefit him and trying to spike his own WBL I would do my job as GM to ensure he couldn't get things too out of control. If he wasn't a munchkin and wanted a bunch of items that could benefit everyone like having a campfire bead and the likes I wouldn't penalize him. These don't affect a characters CR, they just provide utility. Yes his WBL is over limit but not in a bad way.

You all argue this like it's black and white but there is oh so much grey. This is why the dev's will never touch this and why they leave us to rule 0. This is why PFS disallows these feats because they know what they are capable of.

[Bob_Loblaw]

So we're in agreement then? The WBL is an approximation and if the character is too much off from this it will affect his power (too much or too little) so the GM needs to step in. You just have a different line in the sand but it really is no different.

I'm not givng up. I realized that we were simply arguing semantics but had the same conclusion. Step back for a moment and reevaluate. You'll see that most of us, yourself included, are actually in agreement. We all tell our players when it has gotten out of hand. Some of us do it sooner than others.

I should mention that mdt said he would allow a crafter, in game, to have a little more than others (he mentioned 10% but I don't think he meant to the copper piece). I mentioned a 10-20% variance. I even posted the wealth for the current party I'm running and 2 out of the 7 characters had equal wealth. The others were a little off from each other.

The only one who is arguing that we think it's black and white is you. We certainly aren't. I think that's why you are thinking we disagree. You are stuck in argument mode. I should probably say "debate mode." I don't mean that you are argumentative.

[Khrysaor]

We are all in agreement with the point of WBL being an approximation and it can become a potential problem if optimized. ie. characters using them to try and double wealth only for themselves to make themselves uber. A character that uses his feats and doubles his wealth but only has a small portion of it above others applicable to himself and the rest into utility items that help the party but don't directly affect his CR on the other hand isn't nearly the same type of problem but can be a problem if he has the utility to do everything. ie. escape traps and plans you have laid, avoiding detection, all the other nuances of every facet of the game. There is balance and it doesn't have to adhere to WBL for every character. As to the value of craft feats I still don't think any of us are in agreement.

[Khrysaor]

Bob_Loblaw wrote:

You are stuck in argument mode.

Haha this does happen. I've also been arguing with several people on several relative topics in these threads and people select small quotes from everything I say regardless of who it's aimed at or pertaining to.

And yes you guys did agree to the 'roughly equal to WBL' line after it was pointed out. But then mdt gave me scenario's on how he goes about this, and when I pointed out the holes, it falls back to the chaos of rule quoting. Not picking on mdt or any individual, but it just seemed to me that everyone wanted absolution and not personal control with lines like 'GM fiat is not a solution' while using GM fiat to come to their own conclusion.

Like I said, my major argument was that GMs have all the control they need and craft feats have more value than some people argued. I gave example after example and showed the mechanics behind it but still it was refuted. Everyone knows YMMV as every gamer is different but mechanics are mechanics. Math doesn't change because it's not fair when you don't come to a happy conclusion. It's a fundamental.

[Khrysaor]

The other argument is still do you allow crafters to craft pre-game for post level 1s. Justification is there for the crafter through the rules where GM's must invoke control to avoid munchkinism but allow for feats to do what they do. It'd be like taking rich parents and then the GM says, 'nah your parents weren't that rich. You only have 700gp.' But as you're about to leave town, mom comes running out and hands you another sack of gold with 200 coins in it.

[Irontruth]

Khrysaor wrote:

The other argument is still do you allow crafters to craft pre-game for post level 1s.

To me, the answer is no.

If your character is starting with more than +/- 10% from the party average, I wouldn't allow it at my table. WBL is the guideline for the party (whether I'm using 1/2, normal, x2 or some other variation). If you fall outside of that I'm either going to tell you to remove stuff, or give you stuff.

For the rules to work, the value of what you're carrying has to be static, not based on what you paid for it. Otherwise material components could become kind of strange. If Jim is carrying a 5gp diamond, and Dave really needs to cast Raise Dead, if Jim charges Dave 5000gp for it (since he's desperate for it) does it now qualify for the Raise Dead spell?

On the other hand, I am now considering changing Craft [blank], to a chain of feats that affects WBL directly. I'm not sure how much yet. I'll just allow casters to make whatever items they want (assuming they meet other prerequisites) and charging full price. Having a Craft feat will represent the character's knowledge and skill in a profession (for instance running a magic shop!), which provides income and wealth.

[Aaron Webber]

Irontruth wrote:

WBL is the guideline for the party...

This right here is the problem with the entire WBL argument. It is not a guideline for the party, it is a guideline for the DM. It is the DM saying to someone joining the party after level 1 or regenning due to character death, "this is how much gold you may spend to purchase gear (purchase gear, not craft gear)". I don't see how that is vague in the information written on the WBL.

It would be nice to have James or another developer come in and say, "yeah we didn't really intend that to mean players can use that to craft stuff", but honestly I don't think its necessary considering the wording used in the book concerning that table.

WBL is not for the party to use ... ever.

EDIT: I'm not directing this at Irontruth or anyone else, just generally at any of these threads where I see people placing the WBL in the hands of players.

[Buri]

Aaron Webber wrote:

It would be nice to have James or another developer come in and say, "yeah we didn't really intend that to mean players can use that to craft stuff", but honestly I don't think its necessary considering the wording used in the book concerning that table.

Just curious. How do you justify a character having crafting abilities without having crafted items? How did he gain those skills?

To the point of what you wrote, I don't think anyone is saying people should or must be allowed to use starting gold to say they've crafted previous to character generation. However, if a GM were to allow such a thing, I think a character should receive the full benefit of the crafting ability, which is essentially a 2-for-the-price-of-1 scenario, 3-for-the-price-of-1 in the case of mundane items, and to let them spend the rest of their cash as if they only spent the gp necessary to craft the item, which is all the crafting abilities say that you do since the WBL table represents a tangible gp amount for a character.

[Buri]

Irontruth wrote:

For the rules to work, the value of what you're carrying has to be static, not based on what you paid for it. Otherwise material components could become kind of strange. If Jim is carrying a 5gp diamond, and Dave really needs to cast Raise Dead, if Jim charges Dave 5000gp for it (since he's desperate for it) does it now qualify for the Raise Dead spell?

The value is static, yes. However, crafting RAW lets you create something for a gp amount less, 1/3 the price for mundane items and 1/2 the price for magical items, to be exact, than that value.

[Thazar]

There are two ways I look at this rule and the feats. Both of them come down to how the DM is running that game.

1 - If the DM is playing a world where you can spend time in large towns and eventually find the magic item you want to buy for yourself then the crafter can get MORE stuff with his coin then the ranger that took Stabbing Shot and Improved Precise Shot as his feat choices. All players in this game can eventually get what they want... the crafter can just do it cheaper at the expense of fewer feats for actual play.

2 - If the DM is playing a world were there are NOT places to shop around for magic and even the world's largest cities only have maybe six magic items for sale per year... then the crafter does NOT get to make more stuff for himself then the other characters. What he does gain is the ability to custom make the items he wants for himself. The fighter may have to use the old +1 greatsword (+3 vs scalykind) while the crafting fighter/wizard could make a +1 Flaming Khopesh. The loss of combat feats is offset by having better gear tailored for the PC.

There is a third option where the is no down time to make stuff and the DM holds on to gold pieces like they are his personal children... then you just take Endurance and Diehard and move one and forget about crafting. ;)

[Buri]

Thazar wrote:

There is a third option where the is no down time to make stuff and the DM holds on to gold pieces like they are his personal children... then you just take Endurance and Diehard and move one and forget about crafting. ;)

In this case a GM really should just be honest and tell the group to not invest in crafting at all. :\

[Irontruth]

Aaron Webber wrote:

Irontruth wrote:

WBL is the guideline for the party...

This right here is the problem with the entire WBL argument. It is not a guideline for the party, it is a guideline for the DM. It is the DM saying to someone joining the party after level 1 or regenning due to character death, "this is how much gold you may spend to purchase gear (purchase gear, not craft gear)". I don't see how that is vague in the information written on the WBL.

It would be nice to have James or another developer come in and say, "yeah we didn't really intend that to mean players can use that to craft stuff", but honestly I don't think its necessary considering the wording used in the book concerning that table.

WBL is not for the party to use ... ever.

EDIT: I'm not directing this at Irontruth or anyone else, just generally at any of these threads where I see people placing the WBL in the hands of players.

I know you added the edit, but I think that's clearly out of context for how I meant it, since if you look at the entirety of the post, it is from a DM's perspective. I could have chosen better words, but the context is there.

[Irontruth]

Buri wrote:

Irontruth wrote:

For the rules to work, the value of what you're carrying has to be static, not based on what you paid for it. Otherwise material components could become kind of strange. If Jim is carrying a 5gp diamond, and Dave really needs to cast Raise Dead, if Jim charges Dave 5000gp for it (since he's desperate for it) does it now qualify for the Raise Dead spell?

The value is static, yes. However, crafting RAW lets you create something for a gp amount less, 1/3 the price for mundane items and 1/2 the price for magical items, to be exact, than that value.

How much is a +1 longsword worth. When determining WBL, it will be the same value for all characters at my table. That is a static value.

You are proposing a dynamic value, that changes depending on what feats each character has. Character A has no feats, it has a value of X. Character B has Craft Arms, so it has value of Y.

We fundamentally disagree, there really isn't anything else to discuss.

But if you look at my other MUCH more interesting posts, I'm curious if you were to make a Wealth feat, how much would it be worth? This is an entry level feat, open to anyone.

Wealth
Benefit: Your character is allowed to own X% more WBL.
Normal: Characters are limited to WBL worth of items.

What do you think X should be?

[Buri]

Irontruth wrote:

You are proposing a dynamic value, that changes depending on what feats each character has. Character A has no feats, it has a value of X. Character B has Craft Arms, so it has value of Y.

No more dynamic than the cost of one item is different from the cost of another. Even with crafting, the cost is the same, proportionally.

Irontruth wrote:

We fundamentally disagree, there really isn't anything else to discuss.

Only because you're operating under an interpretation instead of the text of the rules. Which, that's fine at your table. The equipment section states you get a certain amount of gp and to only use the WBL chart for levels above level 1. Crafting says you can craft an item at a reduced gp amount. There is nothing in the WBL section that states a characters gear is evaluated based on market cost, only that they have a certain gp amount with which to spend and even goes on to say that certain types of characters may spend that gold entirely different than the given example breakdown of how that gold can be spent. For a crafter, it is reasonable he used some of that gold to craft instead of outright purchasing gear at market value. The terms of "roughly equal" still apply if a non-crafter purchases a +1 longsword and a crafter has a crafted +1 longsword and a couple CLW potions. These characters are still "roughly equal." They would still be roughly equal if the crafter instead made a +2 longsword. +1 to attack and damage shouldn't break your game.

Also, the irony of coming to a thread I created only to say "we fundamentally disagree and there's nothing else to discuss" is pretty hilarious. You get a gold star.

[gnomersy]

Aaron Webber wrote:

Irontruth wrote:

WBL is the guideline for the party...

This right here is the problem with the entire WBL argument. It is not a guideline for the party, it is a guideline for the DM. It is the DM saying to someone joining the party after level 1 or regenning due to character death, "this is how much gold you may spend to purchase gear (purchase gear, not craft gear)". I don't see how that is vague in the information written on the WBL.

It would be nice to have James or another developer come in and say, "yeah we didn't really intend that to mean players can use that to craft stuff", but honestly I don't think its necessary considering the wording used in the book concerning that table.

WBL is not for the party to use ... ever.

EDIT: I'm not directing this at Irontruth or anyone else, just generally at any of these threads where I see people placing the WBL in the hands of players.

While I agree that WBL is a guideline solely for the DM, I disagree that it is there for purchasing gear. Even when creating a new character it remains a guideline for the DM if he decides you can all use it to just straight up buy gear making you more effective than a character that gained his WBL by accumulating knick-nacks while adventuring that's his choice but there isn't anywhere in the rules that says look up this value and use it exactly to buy any equipment you can find in the book up to this value.

[Irontruth]

Buri wrote:

Also, the irony of coming to a thread I created only to say "we fundamentally disagree and there's nothing else to discuss" is pretty hilarious. You get a gold star.

See that conversation we're having about Dynamic and Static costs, that is boring and uninteresting. We completely disagree and the words you are typing don't even make sense to me anymore. Maybe it's that I'm tired, but your point seems muddled and contradictory.

Now, if you want to talk about this other topic, I would LOVE to do it. In fact, I've made multiple posts about it and you've completely ignored it. You'll find comments from me on page 1 and 2.

Wealth
Benefit: You have increased WBL, add X wealth to your character.
Normal: Characters are restricted to normal WBL.

What would you give for X as a value? Look, I'm on an internet forum and honestly asking for opinions, I am actually curious what people would cost a single feat with no entry requirements. How much of a benefit?

Would you use a % increase? Like 5, 10, 15, 100?
Or would you do a level bump? WBL+1? Or halfway to the next level? I'm open to all ideas. Ignore that the crafting feats exist for the purposes of this concept.

[Buri]

Irontruth wrote:

See that conversation we're having about Dynamic and Static costs, that is boring and uninteresting. We completely disagree and the words you are typing don't even make sense to me anymore. Maybe it's that I'm tired, but your point seems muddled and contradictory.

"We" aren't having a discussion about dynamic and static costs. You came up with that out of your ass somewhere. The cost is the same proportionally, as I said. If you completely disagree with this thread then stop commenting or you're just trolling. My point is not contradictory. My point is thus and has been stated before: if you allow a character to come to the table with crafted items then allow them the full benefit of the crafting abilities.

Irontruth wrote:

Now, if you want to talk about this other topic, I would LOVE to do it. In fact, I've made multiple posts about it and you've completely ignored it. You'll find comments from me on page 1 and 2.

I don't care about user created feats. It's not the point of this thread. It's a thread trying to figure out if the developers intend a character with crafting abilities to actually exceed WBL. If you don't want to discuss that then this isn't the thread for you.

[Krome]

Crafting again... seriously...

See in my games the players take on roles of HEROES not merchants.

"Sure you can make that whatever it is. It takes how long? Oh darn I guess the rest of the party will miss you while they are off adventuring... you have fun with those craft roles, okay."

[Tyki11]

I'm off one evening and get 32 new posts to read. Fun times.
So it's still "You can break the wbl AFTER the game starts (or before by taking rich parents/gunslinger at low levels."

Only, the posts are bit longer than that.

Edit: @Krome
Oy, I disagree. My artificer (magus soul forge archetype slapped on alchemist) is being all nice and heroic, keeping the party's gear top notch, so they can be at their best at all times. Sure it takes time, but the archetype halves enchanting time, making my guy able to wear a blacksmiths apron, and kick ass at the same time.

[Maxximilius]

Crafting allows you to get whatever item you currently need if you have the right spells and some ressources. That's more than enough in any campaign setting where you don't have Magic Marts at every street corner without IN ADDITION doubling/breaking/whatever the WBL.

[Bob_Loblaw]

Khrysaor wrote:

Bob_Loblaw wrote:

You are stuck in argument mode.

Haha this does happen. I've also been arguing with several people on several relative topics in these threads and people select small quotes from everything I say regardless of who it's aimed at or pertaining to.

And yes you guys did agree to the 'roughly equal to WBL' line after it was pointed out. But then mdt gave me scenario's on how he goes about this, and when I pointed out the holes, it falls back to the chaos of rule quoting. Not picking on mdt or any individual, but it just seemed to me that everyone wanted absolution and not personal control with lines like 'GM fiat is not a solution' while using GM fiat to come to their own conclusion.

Like I said, my major argument was that GMs have all the control they need and craft feats have more value than some people argued. I gave example after example and showed the mechanics behind it but still it was refuted. Everyone knows YMMV as every gamer is different but mechanics are mechanics. Math doesn't change because it's not fair when you don't come to a happy conclusion. It's a fundamental.

I would like to point out that I was the one who mentioned the "roughly equal" wealth and that was the point of view that mdt and myself have been arguing from the whole time.

I don't have any problems with characters not be 100% equal in wealth regardless of how they get it. I do have a problem when there is so much disparity that we see a CR shift for 1 character.

[Bob_Loblaw]

Krome wrote:

Crafting again... seriously...

See in my games the players take on roles of HEROES not merchants.

"Sure you can make that whatever it is. It takes how long? Oh darn I guess the rest of the party will miss you while they are off adventuring... you have fun with those craft roles, okay."

You don't give them any opportunity to craft at all? Not even using the rules about crafting while adventuring to at least make potions, wands, or scrolls?

[Bob_Loblaw]

Tyki11 wrote:

I'm off one evening and get 32 new posts to read. Fun times.

So it's still "You can break the wbl AFTER the game starts (or before by taking rich parents/gunslinger at low levels."

Only, the posts are bit longer than that.

Edit: @Krome
Oy, I disagree. My artificer (magus soul forge archetype slapped on alchemist) is being all nice and heroic, keeping the party's gear top notch, so they can be at their best at all times. Sure it takes time, but the archetype halves enchanting time, making my guy able to wear a blacksmiths apron, and kick ass at the same time.

You obviously haven't been reading what is being said by the majority so let me clear it up:

You can make your own stuff and the GM will make sure that you don't go overboard.

Rich Parents doesn't violate WBL for 2 reasons. First, there is no WBL for 1st lvel characters. Second, it still has you lower than 2nd level wealth.

The gunslinger also doesn't violate any wealth either, contrary to how many times you make the declaration. I explained this before but you chose to ignore it then. The gunslinger begins play with a gun that will net him up to 40 gold. Even if he did sell it, he would then be unable to use his primary class feature. In this case the gun isn't actually considered wealth (at this level). It is considered a feature. Just like a wizard's spellbook and all the spells in it as well as the cost to scribe and learn those spells doesn't count against the wizard's wealth at 1st level (and 2 more spells at every level afterwards).

To sum up: class features aren't part of wealth, rich parents doesn't violate WBL, and no one is advocating that you should be allowed to break the campaign either before or after the game begins.

[Khrysaor]

Aaron Webber wrote:

It would be nice to have James or another developer come in and say, "yeah we didn't really intend that to mean players can use that to craft stuff", but honestly I don't think its necessary considering the wording used in the book concerning that table.

Except it will probably come in the form of 'yeah we didn't really intend for craft feats to unbalance games, but they can, and that's why we chose to exclude them from PFS play.'

Edit: removed last part of post as I was wrong.

[Bob_Loblaw]

Khrysaor wrote:

Aaron Webber wrote:

It would be nice to have James or another developer come in and say, "yeah we didn't really intend that to mean players can use that to craft stuff", but honestly I don't think its necessary considering the wording used in the book concerning that table.

Except it will probably come in the form of 'yeah we didn't really intend for craft feats to unbalance games, but they can, and that's why we chose to exclude them from PFS play.'

And even though WBL is more for the GM to have a baseline than for players to argue that they're behind/ahead in wealth you can't say

Aaron Webber wrote:

WBL is not for the party to use ... ever.

It's a part of the CRB and is accessible by players where as things in the DMG and Bestiaries are outside of core books for players and intended purely for GM use. You could still argue for playes having the information in the Bestiaries through knowledge skills.

The WBL table is in the Game Mastering section of the Core Rule Book. It really is a tool for the GM and not the players.

[Khrysaor]

Bob_Loblaw wrote:

Khrysaor wrote:

Aaron Webber wrote:

It would be nice to have James or another developer come in and say, "yeah we didn't really intend that to mean players can use that to craft stuff", but honestly I don't think its necessary considering the wording used in the book concerning that table.

Except it will probably come in the form of 'yeah we didn't really intend for craft feats to unbalance games, but they can, and that's why we chose to exclude them from PFS play.'

And even though WBL is more for the GM to have a baseline than for players to argue that they're behind/ahead in wealth you can't say

Aaron Webber wrote:

WBL is not for the party to use ... ever.

It's a part of the CRB and is accessible by players where as things in the DMG and Bestiaries are outside of core books for players and intended purely for GM use. You could still argue for playes having the information in the Bestiaries through knowledge skills.

The WBL table is in the Game Mastering section of the Core Rule Book. It really is a tool for the GM and not the players.

There we go. That's what I was looking for. It is GM only.

[Buri]

Bob_Loblaw wrote:

no one is advocating that you should be allowed to break the campaign either before or after the game begins.

Eh. Speak for yourself. Crafting per RAW is unbalancing by its nature since the crafter will always have more toys than the non-crafter if they each have the same amount of money. The point of this thread is to get some dev insight on if that was intentional or not. If it is, then people may need to reapproach the concept or take the PFS route and ban it all together since players can rightly say they should be able to have more. If not, then carry on with business as usual.

[LazarX]

Buri wrote:

LazarX wrote:

Wealth by level is your intended starting gear the stuff you should have for an average campaign of a given APL. I never ever allow people to break the chart by crafting. I've heard the arguments for the otherwise and they're all trumped by campaign balance. If you want to allow a reward for taking such a feat, you can do that by allowing the player to make a couple of custom items. You count their full value in the WBL though.

Magic is one of the easiest ways for a game to go out of control. Don't yield to a player's desire to start that process before you even get to the gate.

That's how you GM at your table. I'm going for dev intent here. :D

RAW: You get gp to start. Craft says you can spend 1/3 or 1/2 the gp of an item to make it.

There are obvious "unbalancing" effects but I want to know if it was intended just as there are mechanics out there that break rules all the time. Got a spell that can't affect a creature of a certain type? Take a metamagic feat. Don't want to go unconscious when you go neg hit points? Take a certain class, or feat too, iirc. Want more gold at level 1 than the chart provides? Take rich parents. Don't want to wait to travel? Teleport is there to cure what ails you. Don't want to ever die of old age? The monk class and several other ways to do that.

The game is full of exceptions to the rules. I'm just curious if crafting is the exception to the WBL guideline.

Any exceptions are those stated. The developer's intent as written is what's presented in the WBL chart. These are targets of what players of a given level are supposed to have regardless of feats, skills, etc.

For those who say my reading makes the crafting feats useless, they still have the opportunity to be used in game AFTER the start. But if you take those feats with the intention of doubling your WBL, you get no sympathy from me.

This is part of the reason why generating high level characters for players is such a PITA compared to those who got to that level organically.

[Khrysaor]

Irontruth wrote:

Khrysaor wrote:

The other argument is still do you allow crafters to craft pre-game for post level 1s.

To me, the answer is no.

If your character is starting with more than +/- 10% from the party average, I wouldn't allow it at my table. WBL is the guideline for the party (whether I'm using 1/2, normal, x2 or some other variation). If you fall outside of that I'm either going to tell you to remove stuff, or give you stuff.

This is your choice as a GM just as everyone else has their own choices.

Irontruth wrote:

For the rules to work, the value of what you're carrying has to be static, not based on what you paid for it. Otherwise material components could become kind of strange. If Jim is carrying a 5gp diamond, and Dave really needs to cast Raise Dead, if Jim charges Dave 5000gp for it (since he's desperate for it) does it now qualify for the Raise Dead spell?

This example is foolish. The market value of the diamond never changed from the initial 5gp that it is. Saying this will open up another can or worms if a player will say they were experts at bartering and sold all their items for full value instead of half, or likewise terrible at bartering and got suckered out of their wealth.

irontruth wrote:

On the other hand, I am now considering changing Craft [blank], to a chain of feats that affects WBL directly. I'm not sure how much yet. I'll just allow casters to make whatever items they want (assuming they meet other prerequisites) and charging full price. Having a Craft feat will represent the character's knowledge and skill in a profession (for instance running a magic shop!), which provides income and wealth.

Its the fundamentals of crafting that need to change in order for this argument to be solved. There is a fundamental error in that mechanically you can increase wealth which affects WBL, but doesn't seem to be the intentions of the devs for a game balance perspective. If it needs to maintain game balance they need to rein in the wealth potential that can be gained. Either a 1:1 instead of the 2:1 crafting ratio or something so small that it never becomes an issue. 10:9, 5:4, and the likes are miniscule variations but will still see a small variation over time.

---------------------------------------

Spell components are similar to craft materials in that they aren't magic items but needed for magic. A problem of mine was needing 1000gp diamonds on my cleric for restorations. Following WBL these items need to fall somewhere but they aren't listed in the wealth breakdown. So in this case you can only buy these diamonds during in-game play and can never start with them. Otherwise you can start with crafting materials to use in-game as well. If there is no pre-game crafting, a player starts with some items and then X gold in craft materials to make items as he goes. If he hasn't levelled in the time it takes to craft these items, the WBL could be that of a character a level or two higher.

We all need to keep on track though. This isn't, 'how would you handle crafting pre-game which can affect WBL.' This will vary by the GM and is how we want to choose to run our own games. It was 'How was the WBL chart constructed taking crafting into account?' And in hopes of getting it FAQ'd as this doesn't seem to be something anyone but a dev can answer. Does it allow a crafter to exceed his WBL on creation or only exceed his WBL during in-game scenario's. Obviously it's up to the GM to keep things relative but if a player can use the game mechanics to make money during play isn't he capable of making money from his history, that wasn't during play but existed or he would still be level 1.

The problem has been some want game balance to trump everything, but those of us that see how crafting nets you money think that game balance isn't just trumping the craft feats, it's belittling them. We still believe in game balance we just don't want it to remove an aspect of a feat unless that's the intention. In which case the crafts need to be fundamentally reviewed and changed so that crafts do not affect wealth.

[TOZ]

I just have my players tell me what they want to craft, and I tell them if they can have it yet.

[gbonehead]

TOZ wrote:

I just have my players tell me what they want to craft, and I tell them if they can have it yet.

The players in the game I'm running don't craft anything; I have an off-stage 'agent' that does it for them. They turn in magic equal to half the cost of what they want, wait for X days, and return to the capital to retrieve it.

It helps that I'm still using the 3.5e rules that make it cost XP to craft items, I imagine. Probably also helps that they're feeling time pressure and they don't like hanging around for days at a time.

[Krome]

Bob_Loblaw wrote:

Krome wrote:

Crafting again... seriously...

See in my games the players take on roles of HEROES not merchants.

"Sure you can make that whatever it is. It takes how long? Oh darn I guess the rest of the party will miss you while they are off adventuring... you have fun with those craft roles, okay."

You don't give them any opportunity to craft at all? Not even using the rules about crafting while adventuring to at least make potions, wands, or scrolls?

If they can carry the equipment with them along the way they can do the crafting in the evening while camping while in camp.

If they need a full shop to do the work and a few weeks, no. I cannot think of a single adventure book or movie I have ever seen where the hero of the story stops for days on end to make something. It's a story killer.

[Bob_Loblaw]

Krome wrote:

Bob_Loblaw wrote:

Krome wrote:

Crafting again... seriously...

See in my games the players take on roles of HEROES not merchants.

"Sure you can make that whatever it is. It takes how long? Oh darn I guess the rest of the party will miss you while they are off adventuring... you have fun with those craft roles, okay."

You don't give them any opportunity to craft at all? Not even using the rules about crafting while adventuring to at least make potions, wands, or scrolls?

If they can carry the equipment with them along the way they can do the crafting in the evening while camping while in camp.

If they need a full shop to do the work and a few weeks, no. I cannot think of a single adventure book or movie I have ever seen where the hero of the story stops for days on end to make something. It's a story killer.

Iron Man? Batman? I know I've seen fantasy movies and read books where the hero(es) make an awesome sword to beat the bad guy(s).

I understand where you're coming from and that's your style of play. I don't really have an issue with it. I just don't agree with it. Personally, I like having the option as a player, even if I don't use it often. Every game is different though.

[Irontruth]

Buri wrote:

Irontruth wrote:

See that conversation we're having about Dynamic and Static costs, that is boring and uninteresting. We completely disagree and the words you are typing don't even make sense to me anymore. Maybe it's that I'm tired, but your point seems muddled and contradictory.

"We" aren't having a discussion about dynamic and static costs. You came up with that out of your ass somewhere.

I'm not coming up with it out of my ass.

Quote:

stat·ic   [stat-ik]

adjective Also, stat·i·cal.
1. pertaining to or characterized by a fixed or stationary condition.
2. showing little or no change: a static concept; a static relationship.

I am advocating static prices. These are prices that do not change, they are not relative to certain situations when measured against WBL. A Holy Avenger will always count for 120,630 of your WBL, whether it was crafted or found. End of story.

Quote:

dynamic (daɪˈnæmɪk)
— adj
1. of or concerned with energy or forces that produce motion, as opposed to static

In this case, I'm using the word to define a changing price. A price that changes depending on certain situations would be the opposite of static, in the english language an antonym for static is dynamic, which is why I chose it. I didn't pull these words out of my ass, they have meaning and I'm applying those meanings to this discussion.

You are arguing for a dynamic value of items, one that changes depending on the characters feats and/or situation. I am arguing for a static value. You would argue that a character who has a WBL of 120,000, could craft his own Holy Avenger and still have 60,000 worth of other items. I am arguing he can't, because the Holy Avenger is worth 120,000.

I guess another way to think about this for me, if you were designing an encounter for your party would you double the magic items that the BBEG wears, but not alter the CR? Ie, would the Lich from the Bestiary have the same CR if we gave him another 50k in magic items? Would he have the same CR if we removed the magic items?

[Buri]

LazarX wrote:

Any exceptions are those stated. The developer's intent as written is what's presented in the WBL chart. These are targets of what players of a given level are supposed to have regardless of feats, skills, etc.

It can easily be argued that it is stated due to the crafting mechanic only requiring one-third or one-half the cost of an item to make it and that it allows a character to exceed WBL in terms of market value since WBL is an expression of gp rather than a summation of market value for items found on a character.

LazarX wrote:

For those who say my reading makes the crafting feats useless, they still have the opportunity to be used in game AFTER the start. But if you take those feats with the intention of doubling your WBL, you get no sympathy from me.

I'm not suggesting a character to be allowed in the part at a game table with double their WBL unless a table may need that sort of character. However, per RAW you can exceed WBL in terms of total market value of your items with crafting and this thread is trying to get a response on if this is intentional or not.

LazarX wrote:

This is part of the reason why generating high level characters for players is such a PITA compared to those...

Aye. Its much easier to raise a child from birth than to adopt a teenager and expect them to play nice with the rules of your home.

[Buri]

Irontruth wrote:

post

The thing with WBL is that its a gp amount given to characters of a certain level rather than a summation limit for the total market value for their gear. Look at the equipment section in the CRB. It states characters begin play with a certain amount of gp then goes on to reference the WBL chart for characters passed level 1. Crafting says all I need to craft an item is to pay one-third the cost, or one-half, in order to make an item. Mathematics says I then have my total WBL gp minus the cost of crafting materials left. Nothing states the total value of the item is deducted from WBL. All this is contingent upon GM approval. Which, if approved, should be throttled. However, per RAW it is also possible for me to pocket any remaining gold and to then do any crafting at the beginning of the first session. The end result is the same. However, allowing a character to come to the table with these items crafted is a way to not take that character away from the party and to get the show started.

[LazarX]

Buri wrote:

Irontruth wrote:

post

The thing with WBL is that its a gp amount given to characters of a certain level rather than a summation limit for the total market value for their gear. Look at the equipment section in the CRB. It states characters begin play with a certain amount of gp then goes on to reference the WBL chart for characters passed level 1. Crafting says all I need to craft an item is to pay one-third the cost, or one-half, in order to make an item. Mathematics says I then have my total WBL gp minus the cost of crafting materials left. Nothing states the total value of the item is deducted from WBL. All this is contingent upon GM approval. Which, if approved, should be throttled. However, per RAW it is also possible for me to pocket any remaining gold and to then do any crafting at the beginning of the first session. The end result is the same. However, allowing a character to come to the table with these items crafted is a way to not take that character away from the party and to get the show started.

That's a fallacious assumption. WBL does not represent a bundle of cash thrown at the players who are then told to go to MagicMart and buy stuff. It's meant as a relatively sane method of gauging the worth of the equipment and funds the character should have at creation to be handling a campaign at a given level.

[Buri]

LazarX wrote:

That's a fallacious assumption. WBL does not represent a bundle of cash thrown at the players who are then told to go to MagicMart and buy stuff. It's meant as a relatively sane method of gauging the worth of the equipment and funds the character should have at creation to be handling a campaign at a given level.

No, its not and it says you can do exactly that. Go read the beginning of the equipment section. I would copy/paste it but I'm on my phone. It states you get a certain amount of gp then refers you to the WBL chart if you're higher than level 1. Its essentially handing your character a prepaid credit card with a certain balance determined by your starting level.

[Buri]

Okay so I did it anyway.

Quote:

Each character begins play with a number of gold pieces that he can spend on weapons, armor, and other equipment. As a character adventures, he accumulates more wealth that can be spent on better gear and magic items. Table: Starting Character Wealth lists the starting gold piece values by class. In addition, each character begins play with an outfit worth 10 gp or less. For characters above 1st level, see Table: Character Wealth by Level.

How is that not a tangible gp amount when it states you get a certain amount of gp?

[Khrysaor]

LazarX wrote:

Buri wrote:

Irontruth wrote:

post

The thing with WBL is that its a gp amount given to characters of a certain level rather than a summation limit for the total market value for their gear. Look at the equipment section in the CRB. It states characters begin play with a certain amount of gp then goes on to reference the WBL chart for characters passed level 1. Crafting says all I need to craft an item is to pay one-third the cost, or one-half, in order to make an item. Mathematics says I then have my total WBL gp minus the cost of crafting materials left. Nothing states the total value of the item is deducted from WBL. All this is contingent upon GM approval. Which, if approved, should be throttled. However, per RAW it is also possible for me to pocket any remaining gold and to then do any crafting at the beginning of the first session. The end result is the same. However, allowing a character to come to the table with these items crafted is a way to not take that character away from the party and to get the show started.

That's a fallacious assumption. WBL does not represent a bundle of cash thrown at the players who are then told to go to MagicMart and buy stuff. It's meant as a relatively sane method of gauging the worth of the equipment and funds the character should have at creation to be handling a campaign at a given level.

Dictionary.com wrote:

fal·la·cious   [fuh-ley-shuhs] Show IPA
adjective
1.containing a fallacy; logically unsound: fallacious arguments.
2.deceptive; misleading: fallacious testimony.
3.disappointing; delusive: a fallacious peace.

Having gold to shop at MagicMart is what WBL does equate to on character creation. No, the intent is not in that favor, but in practice and mechanics this is exactly what it means. Every character is limited by the items available and their cost. To say everyone follows WBL is to say everyone has access to MagicMart and this is what leads to belittling crafting feats.

PFSRD wrote:

Making a Character Above 1st level

If you are creating a character or creature at a level other than 1st you should consult your GM and the Wealth for Higher Level PC's table to determine your starting gold. See Table: Character Wealth by Level for details.

PFSRD wrote:

Wealth and Money

Each character begins play with a number of gold pieces that he can spend on weapons, armor, and other equipment.

As a character adventures,he accumulates more wealth that can be spent on better gear and magic items.

Dictionary.com wrote:

wealth   [welth] Show IPA

noun
1.a great quantity or store of money, valuable possessions, property, or other riches: the wealth of a city.
2.an abundance or profusion of anything; plentiful amount: a wealth of imagery.
3.Economics .
a.all things that have a monetary or exchange value.
b.anything that has utility and is capable of being appropriated or exchanged.
4.rich or valuable contents or produce: the wealth of the soil.
5.the state of being rich; prosperity; affluence: persons of wealth and standing.

This, also, doesn't exclude a character from having craft materials. It's only saying that a character shouldn't exceed or be exceeded by WBL excessively or it will have balance issues. The idea Buri is getting at is, in any case, the crafter has access to crafting materials which go against his WBL. These crafting materials can be used to double their value when turned into an item. Why does the item go against WBL and not the materials if you can craft? If you want to say craft materials aren't listed and therefore aren't accessible to buy then it's also true that craft items aren't listed and therefore you can never buy them and as such can never craft.

*All numbers are figurative for example purposes and will vary*

If my WBL is at 62000gp for level 10 and I have 30000gp worth of crafting materials and 32000gp in items, my WBL is still 62000gp. Those craft materials can be turned, in time, into 60000gp worth of items. Now I have 92000gp in items when my WBL should be 62000gp. In this example though it would require a character 60 days to craft these materials at full time in a town. 30 days if you choose to accelerate it. 15 days if you're the artificer/soul forger or whatever the combo is that reduces crafting times by 1/2 again. 60 days also becomes 240 days of crafting while adventuring or 120 days adventuring using the accelerated mechanic with +5 DC. Obviously you dont' start campaigns with crafting items because you should have been crafting as you adventured and wouldn't have an abundance of them. This still means that you could have turned 20000gp of those materials into items, worth 40000gp, which means your wealth is 72000gp in items and 10000gp left in materials to craft and now you exceed the WBL of a level 10. If you don't allow people to pre-game craft then what's stopping them from taking craft materials using the WBL table and doing so in game. Yes, you can argue time limits how quickly these items can be made but the end result is the same. They will turn those materials into a greater value as stated under the crafting rules.

For a level 10 character you have been adventuring for an unknown period of time. You didn't wake up and decide to adventure starting on day 1 and are magically level 10. You fought your way there. You spent days/weeks/years getting to where you are. Was it not possible to have had downtime in all that adventuring where you could have made a few items along the way? Maybe you have a ring of sustenance and wake up to craft in the morning hours when others are sleeping.

[Lou Diamond]

IMO the WBK table was constructed as a guideline by the DEV's to set a base line for thier idea of what a character should have at the power level that they [The DEV's} wanted Galorian to be set at.

Golarian is a kicking world that I feel the DEV's are holding down with the fractious WBL table. ANy Good GM should determine what power level
he wants his campain set at and then hand out gear magic or mundane as he feels approiate.

As for Magic Marts the best way that I have seen them run is Multiversial Trading Company was the magic mart in a many ear campain that I Played in. Carded magic Items were handed ot by all the GM;s in the campain and characters were free to sell said Items to MTC and they would go into a box and characters in ofther games could by what ever was in the box if they had the capital ot do so. You could also commision items from MTC or a Gulid but that could take several games to get said item. Casters in tis campain made most of thier own kaboom sticks as the rules we used did not have crafting feats Casters were assumed to know how to make Wands and staffs for mages and Rods poitions for clerics.

This in no way had an impact on the game as Dave's rule one was you can alway out think the GM but never out fight him. ANd Rule 2 was Power attracts power.

THe Current Crafting system needs to be scraped IMO as it is broken and cannot be fixed. Simple prcing needs to be made for Rods Staffs and Wands no the current forulmas that reqiire an advanced degree in math
the game is not about math but magic.

It is the GM's job to handle what his players have/get in the course of the game.

The WBL table is only useful IMO for Socialized Gaming like PFS were the DEV's want everyone to have the same ammount of Magic gear per level.

Soory for the long post.

[Cheapy]

My kitty said that you can bypass WBL with crafting feats.

So, uh... That settles that. You guys can pack up and take the super long posts away. It's been definitely settled.

[SquealyNordgasm]

Oink!

[Cheapy]

Oh yea, my pig agrees with the kitty.

So that double settles that.

[Khrysaor]

Too bad there's a whole barn full of animals that don't agree and so this will continue until the Gods up high tell us how it is. Comments like this are also counter productive.

Lou Diamond wrote:

THe Current Crafting system needs to be scraped IMO as it is broken and cannot be fixed.

^This.

[Cheapy]

Khrysaor wrote:

Too bad there's a whole barn full of animals that don't agree and so this will continue until the Gods up high tell us how it is. Comments like this are also counter productive.

My apologies. I'll let everyone get back to repeating the same damn things that have been said a billion times before in all the countless other threads about this topic.

[Khrysaor]

Cheapy wrote:

Khrysaor wrote:

Too bad there's a whole barn full of animals that don't agree and so this will continue until the Gods up high tell us how it is. Comments like this are also counter productive.

My apologies. I'll let everyone get back to repeating the same damn things that have been said a billion times before in all the countless other threads about this topic.

Condescension also adds nothing to an argument. You have the option like anyone on any forum. You don't like what people are posting, don't post. As far as I thought, trolling wasn't welcome on the paizo forums.

[Bob_Loblaw]

Cheapy's just having a little fun with some minor distraction. It's nothing to get worked up over.