Except that an army is going to be a fraction of the population. Sure the army won't have 91% of its members as commoners, but that's because your typical military is a fraction of the total populace in a given area.
For example, let's say you have a land that consists of a metropolis, 3 small cities, and dotted with villages and hamlets and such all around the edges and such. The metropolis will have several high level characters, but most of these probably won't be military. You might have the leader of the thieves' guild, the king's personal retainer, the head of a wizard college, etc. Some might be military, but odds are most aren't, because as super beings they probably have their own agendas, and wouldn't bother with military campaigns unless their interests were personally invested in it.
Likewise, as far as I can tell, a military is part of the population of a city. Military would be drawn from that Metropolis, as well as the outlying settlements. To get your entire army for a nation, you would need to draw up soldiers from your main city, the smaller cities, and the outlying villages and such, which all combined might bring you your 10,000 man army.
Likewise, speaking of military folk gaining levels faster than everyone else, there are a few issues with that. Firstly, a squadron of individuals would split XP pretty fiercely, unless you were capping the division by 6 (which I often do, but I don't think it's standard), the XP they earn from seeing actual combat will generally not be very much.
For example, if you have 50 CR 1/3 human warriors and they fight a group of 50 CR 1/3 orc bandits, a solid number of the human warriors will die, but they did participate in the battle so they get a cut of the XP. So the 50 orcs were worth 6,750 XP (about a CR 9 encounter). That is then divided 50 ways for 135 XP to the remaining survivors. The surviving human soldiers would need to engage in about 8-9 more battles before they hit 2nd level on the fast XP progression.
For them to become veterans faster, they would need to successfully fend off worse odds, such as 20 men vs 50 orcs (where they would level in about 4 of such encounters, if they survived). In each situation, only a portion of that group is going to actually survive, so a veteran would be the soldier who has survived a number of battles, and has reached 2nd or 3rd level. Being 2nd or 3rd level, he is far more difficult to kill than his first level counterpart (having easily twice as many HP, +10% more chance to hit foes, and likely having afforded to upgrade his equipment to a higher quality), which means that he is more likely to survive to become his Metropolis's own 20th level warrior sometime down the line after tons of battles. Heck, by the time he reaches 6th level, he can probably lead small groups of fellow veterans of 5th level and below on particularly dangerous missions, etc.
But yes, a 10th level character can kill an army of normal people.
And I greatly suspect more people will agree with mdt's definition of core than will with yours. I know I certainly do.
I don't care how many people agree with my definition of core rules, anymore than I care about my definition of the color black versus the color white. One says CORE RULEBOOK, the others don't. In 3.x, when someone said "Core Rules Only", they are typically referring to the CORE RULES, which in 3.x was the PHB (Core Rulebook I), DMG (Core Rulebook II), and MM (Core Rulebook III). Anything else was splat. Even 3.5 Psionics which I love and cherish for all its amazement, which was even more balanced than core, was still a splatbook, even thought it was part of the 3.5 SRD.
So you guys can whine and whine about how all this stuff supposedly is core, but I'm going to stick by the definition that the CORE RULEBOOK is probably the core rulebook.
Which is fine -- the definition of core rulebook can be the core rulebook -- that doesn't mean the definition of core with nothing after it is what you think it is.
Also you go on about grabbing open population for the army but what if we don't do that? After all the USA specifically screens its military and it is not the only country in history to do so, since nothing in the core rulebook tells us what an army comprises of and nothing in the core rulebook provides for specific NPC levels beyond 1~20 I would suggest that a nation/government/whatever could specifically screen and raise an army of the type and size it wants.
After all you didn't say, "A quickly conscripted army in a specific nation that doesn't keep a standing army and is only run by idiots" therefore any army of npcs that can be built by the core rulebook is equally valid as your army of idiots.
Which is fine -- the definition of core rulebook can be the core rulebook -- that doesn't mean the definition of core with nothing after it is what you think it is.
Also you go on about grabbing open population for the army but what if we don't do that? After all the USA specifically screens its military and it is not the only country in history to do so, since nothing in the core rulebook tells us what an army comprises of and nothing in the core rulebook provides for specific NPC levels beyond 1~20 I would suggest that a nation/government/whatever could specifically screen and raise an army of the type and size it wants.
After all you didn't say, "A quickly conscripted army in a specific nation that doesn't keep a standing army and is only run by idiots" therefore any army of npcs that can be built by the core rulebook is equally valid as your army of idiots.
Depends on a lot of factors. Some societies keep a standing military to subjugate the citizens. Some screen and train recruits to build an elite army of only the very best individuals (maybe they're comprised of people using 15 PB instead of the usual 3 PB, or maybe they beat the individuality out of them while making them physically strong so that they all have high physical stats while dumping Charisma and such).
The army has to exist somewhere. They would indeed be part of the population. Maybe you'd have a land where more people are soldiers, but you have to consider economic needs as well. The larger the army the bigger the funding. Funding typically comes from civilians, so there's something of a soft cap for typical armies if they're not relying on conscripted people. I'd even go so far as to happily say that a government could set it up so that they didn't have commoners (as in the class) at all, and all their citizens were at least warriors, experts, or even all adepts if desired. No problem.
Still, we end up with a situation where getting to a high level is a pretty huge deal. If it takes surviving about 10 encounters versus equal groups for you to reach 2nd level, then most soldiers aren't going to reach 2nd level unless they exist in a company that is consistently at war. Kind of like the Crab Clan in the Rokugan campaign setting, which breeds above-average warriors because they live on the borders between the empire and what amounts to hell (so their guys see a lot of action constantly).
Then again, I'm not talking about an army of the biggest badasses amongst badasses. A 3rd level warrior is pretty badass. He can single handedly beat the hell out of five or six commoners in a barfight before going down (commoners having about 3 HP each, dealing 1d3 nonlethal per punch, AC 10, versus the 3rd level warrior who has about 13 Hp, +3 to hit, 1d3+2 nonlethal, AC 10-11). Very badass fellow. That's good enough for me. Such a dude would be a veteran of quite a few battles.
But like I said, I'm talking about a army. The greatest army in the world? No. An army of above-average soldiers? Nope. Just an army. Heck, any of the armies in Bravehart would pretty much qualify. Braveheart army + magic. Including the heavy cavalry.
Regardless of the campaign, one fact remains. Against normal people, a 10th level character can prevail. Now some campaigns, like mdt's campaign, might have armies with super heroes in them. Well, then cool, I already said super heroes vs super heroes + mooks means the super heroes without the mooks probably lose. Of course. No one has argued otherwise.
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Not all encounters are combat. Simply making into the military might be enough of an encounter to grant experience for example.
And you are still maintaining that somehow level 3 is pretty big and bad when you have nothing to support that position in the core rulebook -- it is entirely your opinion and houserules that make it that way.
Now I'll grant that a pc is likely to have a better chance against an NPC that was built using the non-heroic NPC stat line given in the core rulebook -- but only if the pc is built or what not a better stat line.
Also not all encounters of the same CR are equal -- The GMG guard is much better equipped than the standard orc for example, which would factor into his winning more often too, or could be faced with lesser threats before actual combat as well.
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Ashiel I think you are making a few assumptions that don't quite work and so might people who use high levels for a population average. You can have a large number of high level characters without dragging the overall average up too much.
Every nation every has had standing forces existing. Those forces might belong to powerful nobles or just be the existing bodyguard force for the rich and powerful.
Between battles and wars the people who fought in the last war go home and back to their lives. They don't lose any levels gained. Some of them will join mercenary groups which are quite common (even now a days). Those people fight in smaller groups and smaller engagements. Some might just become bandits or highwaymen.
What happens is that NPCs who are not fighting usually just go back and become Joe farmer. Some portion of the population keeps on fighting and doing things and gaining levels.
That portion does not need to be large. If we have a 19 people per thousand who are above level 1. Those 19 are one of each level 2-20 then the average level is just 1.19 or essentially 1. In a city of 25,000 then we have 475 people above level 2 and 25 of each level from 2-20. If just 1/25 of the population is mustered up then we could easily have an army with several high level people but the average level is actually quite low.
That does not even get to the idea that mercenary groups might be hired and be higher level in general. Bandits might join the army to get a share of spoils. These people would not really be part of the population of that theoretical city.
If the average level is 3 then we could have mostly 1st level NPCs (810 per 1000) and 190 spread evenly across 2-19. That works out to an average of 3.09. In a city of 25,000 we would have 4,750 people from 2-20. Basically, 25 people for each level greater than 1. 100 people in that city would be in the 7-20 range.
Edit: I spread my levels evenly but some uneven spreads will result in the similar averages. If you have a curve where most of the >1s are lower level (i.e. 2-10) you could double up on it. Have those 19 be 18 from 2-10 and 1 who is 18-20. You could also have more high levels but fewer in your group. You could have a 5, four 10s and 11-20.
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I guess one way to avoid being wrong is to ignore everything that could prove you wrong.
I'm not going to argue about which rules are core or not. Even if we stick to just the CRB, a level 10 character cannot single handedly take out an entire army. Even if the army was conscripted, there would still need to be trained soldiers to lead them and to train them. In a fantasy setting, this would include magic using characters as well as mundane characters. It would include melee, archer, mounted, scouts, etc. An army is not just a bunch of guys with swords running to their doom.
No matter how much you want it to be true, a 10th level character (especially CRB only) can single handedly take out a 10k army. He could be a threat. He could deal damage to morale. He could screw up supplies. He could not take out the army though.
An army is not just a bunch of guys with swords running to their doom.
Maybe not in your campaign...
But seriously, from the beginning of this thread (well, 3 pages in) it's seemed to me that one 10th level character decimating an army of 10,000 can't happen without no little DM collusion.
It doesn't have to be a Monty Hall thing even: I'm picturing some long suffering DM looking at his battle mat, getting that familiar sinking feeling in the pit of his stomach, and saying, "Fine, you kill them all."
No one wants to roll out 10,000 10 vs. 1 combats, but if you did, the "superhero" will come out far from unscathed. Hell, if you're using the old instant kill DMG provided house-rule (20 on a critical confirmation roll = instant death), that level 10 superhero will die in the first half hour of combat, and 10,000 on 1 takes hours to roll out.
Not all encounters are combat. Simply making into the military might be enough of an encounter to grant experience for example.
And you are still maintaining that somehow level 3 is pretty big and bad when you have nothing to support that position in the core rulebook -- it is entirely your opinion and houserules that make it that way.
Now I'll grant that a pc is likely to have a better chance against an NPC that was built using the non-heroic NPC stat line given in the core rulebook -- but only if the pc is built or what not a better stat line.
Also not all encounters of the same CR are equal -- The GMG guard is much better equipped than the standard orc for example, which would factor into his winning more often too, or could be faced with lesser threats before actual combat as well.
I'm not talking about house rules. I'm talking about people being normal people. The Alexandrian page I linked to wasn't showing the correct way to play D&D, it was about calibration. It looks at what people can DO and then addresses it from there. There have been similar articles before 3E, such as an old one about Gandalf being a 5th level wizard.
My point was very simple, and has remained very simple. A 10th level D&D character can trump an army of people whose level is representing the realm of normal people (1-3rd), including the assumptions of alchemical goods, cheap magic items (potions, oils, etc), and fantastic creatures such as griffon mounts and such. I have not now nor ever declared that a 10th level character could defeat an army consisting of super-heroes, which is essentially anyone of 6th level or greater (at this level, you are probably stronger than quite a few comic book heroes), let alone people of similar level. Let's not get this point construed as something else. Likewise, this point has not been effectively refuted once during this thread. Instead it has been repeatedly noted that high level armies can destroy high level PCs, which is effectively the same thing as noting that an army of 1st-3rd level NPCs will destroy a 3rd level PC.
As to the argument about house rules to make 3rd level big and bad, I refute it with the core rules. See the core rules calibrate how the world works. We can see fire deals a certain amount of damage, and we can see falling from great heights deals a certain amount of damage, etc. We can see that a professional with good tools can make the majority of armors, and with skill focus you can make all the armors in the core rulebook at 1st level (+4 skill, +3 focus, +2 mwk = full plate). We can see how the environment affects the character, and how long they can last before giving out under certain conditions. We essentially can view how far you go before you go from mundane to fantastic.
For example, the average human warrior probably has 5-7 hit points. He's conditioned enough that most falls from 10ft are going to hurt, but he'll probably walk away from them hurt. A fall from 20ft is life threatening, but he'd probably be okay if he had someone to make sure he wasn't concussed or something. Likewise, we can see that their ability to run, jump, and swim, is in line with what pretty normal people can do. It also jives well with the way skill checks and such are set up.
Look at the DCs for things.
0 = Effortless
5 = Easy
10 = Average
15 = Difficult
20 = Hard
25 = Very Hard
30 = Impossible
These numbers seem very accurate when you are looking at what characters can do based on level. However, by 5th level, all of those shift down at least one level. By 5th level you have a +9 from skill ranks alone, and probably a +2 bonus (tools) or at least a +1 from ability, meaning you can take 10 to regularly preform tasks which are hard, meaning they're not hard anymore at all to you. By 10th level, characters can routinely do the impossible (take 10 + 13 ranks + 5 ability + 2 item = 30).
So I'm basing what I'm describing off the core rules and observation of those rules.
An army is not just a bunch of guys with swords running to their doom.Maybe not in your campaign...
But seriously, from the beginning of this thread (well, 3 pages in) it's seemed to me that one 10th level character decimating an army of 10,000 can't happen without no little DM collusion.
It doesn't have to be a Monty Hall thing even: I'm picturing some long suffering DM looking at his battle mat, getting that familiar sinking feeling in the pit of his stomach, and saying, "Fine, you kill them all."
No one wants to roll out 10,000 10 vs. 1 combats, but if you did, the "superhero" will come out far from unscathed. Hell, if you're using the old instant kill DMG provided house-rule (20 on a critical confirmation roll = instant death), that level 10 superhero will die in the first half hour of combat, and 10,000 on 1 takes hours to roll out.
Personally in such a situation, I like using tools like OpenRPG's dice roller. If foes only hit on a 20, then you can punch in 10,000d20 and have it roll, with a note to only report the number of 20s rolled.
Honestly, having a handy dice rolling program really speeds up play in any high level game; since even without hundreds of NPCs on the field (which it can be really great to just go Fellowship some orcs now and then), spells like fireball and such can take some time to count out. Especially when you start dropping quickened fireballs round to round (a pit fiend has fireball at will and quickened fireball if I recall correctly, which is easily two instances of 10d6 with saves vs each).
A character at higher level might be able to hyper specialize, but that doesn't mean the DC is easier in the world, only that that specific character is good at that task. Everything about the character build plays into this (which is always why an NPC doesn't have to be limited to low levels).
Now PCs do tend to hyper focus on what they perceive to be survival skills, but that doesn't mean NPCs do the same.
For example lets look at a spread of NPCs:
Barmaid -- No feats for skills, 2 stats with a +1 bonus 1 with a -1 penalty, and 8 skill points spread across 5 skills.
Farmer -- Animal Affinity, Skill Focus(P.(Farmer)), 2 stats with a +1 bonus and 1 with a -1 penalty, 11 skill points across 7 skills.
Soldier -- 1 stat +2 bonus 1 stat +1 bonus, and 2 stats with a -1 penalty, 3 skill points in three skills.
Caravan Guard -- Alertness, 3 stats with +1 bonus 2 stats with a -1 penalty, 6 skill points across 5 skills.
Noble Scion -- 3 stats with a +1 one with a -1, 20 skill points across 11 skills
Wanderer -- +1 to two stats +2 to a stat, +3 to a stat, -1 to a stat, Deceitful, Deft Hands, 24 skill points across 12 skills.
Even as we get into the Knight, Battle Monk, and Cavalry we continue to see skill bonuses in the +5 range with a few going up to +12. It's not until we get to tenth level do we regularly see people with the capacity to regularly break a DC 20 check.
Because quite frankly level is a poor indicator of performance -- all it really tells us is potential.
If I ever start a 3pp it's going to have to be named Murderous Hobos at this point.
But even if they hyper focus that doesn't mean they have to be murderous hobos -- they could be train hopping hobos, or musical hobos, or cooking hobos (not cooking the hobos, but hobos that cook to be clear) or cooking hobos (cooking the hobos this time).
It is the BEST way to avoid being wrong. Also, who are you talking too?I guess one way to avoid being wrong is to ignore everything that could prove you wrong.
I was referring to Ashiel. I was using my phone to post and the quote tags were not cooperating. Sorry.
If I ever start a 3pp it's going to have to be named Murderous Hobos at this point.
But even if they hyper focus that doesn't mean they have to be murderous hobos -- they could be train hopping hobos, or musical hobos, or cooking hobos (not cooking the hobos, but hobos that cook to be clear) or cooking hobos (cooking the hobos this time).
If you make your first product about gunslingers, you can call it Hobos with Shotguns!
Level is an excellent indication of power, because it is the primary limiter of power. You can hyper specialize at 1st level to be exceptionally good at your chosen thing, but that generally means you will be exceptionally good at that thing.
For example, your typical armorsmith probably has a +4-5 modifier in Craft from his 1 rank, +3 class skill, and maybe +0-1 Intelligence modifier. As a commoner or expert, his HP is about 3-4, barring Con modifiers. Toss in some masterwork tools which would be a staple of a professional NPC's gear, and he can take 10 and craft anything up to DC 16-17. With help from an apprentice, or with Skill Focus, he can happily forge most anything he pleases.
He is about as tough as your average person, and has skills and abilities appropriate to the standard scale of things. DC 15 is still difficult, but he's a professional and has been trained to handle it regularly, so he can take 10 and do it. Skill Focus or just being more intelligent can push it up to +10 or higher, allowing him to make masterwork items easily enough.
It's not about overspecializing, it's about what normal people are capable of. If we wanted to overspecialize, we'd have an armorsmith who tanks stuff not useful for smithing, take skill focus, probably be a dwarf, or take the human alternate feature or whatever. You could easily hit a +12 or more with overspecialization at 1st level (+4 class skill, +5 Intelligence, +2 masterwork item, +3 feat = +14), which basically means you can hit impossible tasks at 1st level.
It most certainly does NOT require you to be a high level to be competent at your job. Being a high level just makes you less and less normal, and less mundane and more fantastic.
Because I don't feel like unpacking and I finally got my computer set up, let's look at what a 10k Army would look like. I used the Core Rule Book and the Game Mastery Guide as well as my personal experience as an infantry soldier trained in strategies and tactics on small and large scales. This is going to be long but it should be a clear indicator of why a 10th level character, of any class, cannot take on a fantasy army of only the core races and classes.
Here’s what the Core Rule Book has to say about soldiers and cities:
Guards and Soldiers
A city typically has full-time military personnel equal to 1% of its adult population, in addition to militia or Conscript soldiers equal to 5% of the population. The fulltime soldiers are city guards responsible for maintaining order within the city, similar to the role of modern police, and (to a lesser extent) for defending the city from outside assault. Conscript soldiers are called up to serve in case of an attack on the city.
…
The majority of a city guard force is made up of warriors, mostly 1st level. Officers include higher-level warriors, fighters, a fair number of clerics, and wizards or sorcerers, as well as multiclass fighter/spellcasters.
How big is a city? Well if we’re looking for 10k soldiers, then our city should be 166,667 adults strong. So we are looking at a metropolis. We have to go to the Gamemastery Guide for this information, but that’s not a problem because it’s part of the PRD.
So what can we expect in a metropolis? Well we know that there are casters there that are willing and able to cast spells up to 9th level. This is laid out in the Equipment section of the CRB. That means we’re looking at 17th level casters. If we stick to the GMG, we can expect casters up to 15th level because it says that there is spellcasting available up to 8th level spells. It should be no surprise that we should also be able to find other classes as well. How much influence they would have on the army is a different issue, but we do know that it shouldn’t be a problem within the settlement to find very high level characters.
We also know that high level NPCs are available in a large city or a metropolis because the CRB says so:
Access to Resources: Unlike in dungeons and the wilderness, characters can buy and sell gear quickly in a city. A large city or metropolis probably has high-level NPCs and experts in obscure fields of knowledge who can provide assistance and decipher clues.
Here is what the GMG has to say about the NPC gallery:
The following table presents more than 80 NPCs common to the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game.
You may notice that these 80 NPCs are common to the PFRPG simply because the authors have explicitly stated this. Personal opinions are 100% irrelevant. This is what the developers have stated is common. Besides, as you will soon see, this 10k Army will still fit the standards put forth in the Alexandrian article. So the whole thing becomes a moot point anyway.
Now let’s build the army:
Foot soldiers: Warrior 1
Squad Leaders (my own addition, but Warrior 2)
Guards: Warrior 3
Guard Officers: Fighter 4
Watch Captains: Fighter 7
Generals: Fighter 11
Let’s now break this down into what I posted before about unit sizes. I won’t use special forces for any of this portion.
Team: 5 Foot Soldiers with one leader. Leader should be a Guard.
Squad: 2 Teams. We are at 5 Foot Soldiers and 2 Guards. Let’s give them a leader. He would probably be a Warrior 2, right between the Team Leaders and the Platoon Leaders. I know they are listed but as you will see, if we don’t do this we will have too many Generals.
Platoon: 4 Squads. That’s 20 Foot Soldiers and 4 Guards. We also now need a Guard Officer.
Company: 5 Platoons. That’s 100 foot soldiers, 20 guards, and 4 guard officers. We also now need another leader so let’s go with Watch Captain.
Battalion: 5 Companies. That’s 500 foot soldiers, 100 guards, 20 guard officers, and 5 watch captains. Time for a new leader, General.
A Brigade is 3 Battalions. An Army would be 2 Brigades. Those would each be led by another General and they would also be led by a single General. Let’s keep it simple and put those generals as just 1 level higher than the previous ones. We still have 2011 soldiers to work with for special forces. That’s plenty. It’s about 1/5 the Army and will still include quite a bit like Cavalry and Spellcasters as well as medical personnel.
So what are we looking at?
6000 Level 1 Warriors (60%)
1200 Level 2 Warriors (12%)
600 Level 3 Warriors (6%)
150 Level 4 Fighters (1.5%)
30 Level 7 Fighters (0.3%)
6 Level 11 Fighters (0.06%)
2 Level 12 Fighters (0.02%)
1 Level 13 Fighter (0.01%)
Grand Total: 7989 Soldiers. (79.89%)
Now let’s look at Special Forces. We should consider breaking these down into a few different types of units. Let’s go with Magic and Mundane. Mundane would include archers, cavalry, and scouts/recon. Magic would include offensive casters, defensive caster, healing, and recon. For simplicity, let’s put each of them at 50% of the remaining forces. We have 2011 soldiers left so let’s give the odd soldier to the mundane forces. That gives us 1006 for mundane and 1005 for magic.
Let’s first break down the Mundane Special Forces. Archers: 50%, Cavalry: 40%, Scouts/Recon: 10%.
We should have 503 Archers, 403 Cavalry, and 100 Scouts. Not a bad breakdown and very reasonable. Let’s give this breakdown (these are “elite” so their percentages should be different): approximately 60%, 20%, 10%, 0.25%. 0.1%
Archers: 333 Level 1, 100 Level 2, 50 Level 3, 15 Level 4, 5 Level 7
Cavalry: 270 Level 1, 80 Level 2, 40 Level 3, 10 Level 4, 3 Level 7
Scouts: 60 Level 1, 20 Level 2, 12 Level 3, 6 Level 4, 2 Level 7
Now for Magic Forces. They would be broken down into the Offense, Defense, Healing, and Recon. They could get away with 40% Offense, 40% Defense, 15% Healing, 5% Recon. The reason for this break down is that offense and defense are often not long lasting enough so they will need a higher number of casters. Healing forces will not be able to be everywhere so instead they will need to be spread out and able to handle larger forces of injured (clerics and oracles would be perfect for this). Remember that medics are still able to fight. With their training and magic, they make excellent combat medics. Recon is never a large part of the military but the information they gain would be indispensible. Much of the information they gain will either be long lasting (general info on opposing forces) and generally only need to be given to the higher echelon forces. The times when they need more on-the-spot intelligence, these forces will still be able to do their jobs even in such small numbers.
I said 1005 Magic Forces. That’s 402 Offense, 402 Defense, 150 Healing, 51 Recon.
So, using the same breakdown as before since it is consistent and reasonable:
Offense: 250 Level 1, 90 Level 2, 40 Level 3, 10 Level 4, 4 Level 7, and 8 “other levels”
Defense: 250 Level 1, 90 Level 2, 40 Level 3, 10 Level 4, 4 Level 7, and 8 “other levels”
Healing: 90 Level 1, 30 Level 2, 15 Level 3, 4 Level 4, 2 Level 7, and 9 “other levels”
Recon: 30 Level 1, 10 Level 2, 5 Level 3, 2 Level 4, 1 Level 7, and 3 “other levels”
The reason I chose “other levels” instead of simply adding them to these forces is because it allows for higher level leaders. It would be simple to use the standards for the regular army with a few more elite casters, up to a single level 15 caster for each unit type since a metropolis will reasonably have level 15 casters. We would only be using 4 level 15 characters in the entire 10,000 man army. Remember that an Army this size still would have support personnel that are not part of the Army (cooks, stable hands, artisans, etc). For simplicity, assume another 5% are non-combat personnel. 500 support staff is not unreasonable.
The CRB and the GMG have enough for us to reasonably assume what the soldiers would look like. The breakdown of wealth, which is incredible by the way, is:
Level 1: 1,893,580
Level 2: 631,800
Level 3: 633,360
Level 4: 341,550
Level 7: 237,150
Level 11: 76,500
Level 12: 32,700
Level 13: 21,000
Total (not counting the extra casters of various levels): 3,867,640
That’s one hell of an Army. I don’t feel like breaking down the Navy…
Please provide the level 10 character that can deal with this. I would love to see it.
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please provide the 10th level character that can deal with this.
Paging John Rambo to the thread. John Rambo, come in please!
Pulling from the Urban adventure section we do have the following information too:
A city typically has full-time military personnel equal to 1% of its adult population, in addition to militia or conscript soldiers equal to 5% of the population. The full-time soldiers are city guards responsible for maintaining order within the city, similar to the role of modern police, and (to a lesser extent) for defending the city from outside assault. Conscript soldiers are called up to serve in case of an attack on the city.
A typical city guard force works on three 8-hour shifts, with 30% of the force on a day shift (8 a.m. to 4 p.m.), 35% on an evening shift (4 p.m. to 12 a.m.), and 35% on a night shift (12 a.m. to 8 a.m.). At any given time, 80% of the guards on duty are on the streets patrolling, while the remaining 20% are stationed at various posts throughout the city where they can respond to nearby alarms. At least one such guard post is present within each neighborhood of a city (each neighborhood consisting of several districts).
The majority of a city guard force is made up of warriors, mostly 1st level. Officers include higher-level warriors, fighters, a fair number of clerics, and wizards or sorcerers, as well as multiclass fighter/spellcasters.
That's where I got my start. I just deleted the second paragraph since it wasn't important to my Army.
You know somehow I missed that on the first pass, even though it's right there in plain sight.
I could you give us the total number of people above each level?
You know somehow I missed that on the first pass, even though it's right there in plain sight.
I could you give us the total number of people above each level?
Let's not get technical, shall we?
Please provide the level 10 character that can deal with this. I would love to see it.
No.
I'm not talking about house rules. I'm talking about people being normal people. The Alexandrian page I linked to wasn't showing the correct way to play D&D, it was about calibration. It looks at what people can DO and then addresses it from there. There have been similar articles before 3E, such as an old one about Gandalf being a 5th level wizard.
My point was very simple, and has remained very simple. A 10th level D&D character can trump an army of people whose level is representing the realm of normal people (1-3rd), including the assumptions of alchemical goods, cheap magic items (potions, oils, etc), and fantastic creatures such as griffon mounts and such. I have not now nor ever declared that a 10th level character could defeat an army consisting of super-heroes, which is essentially anyone of 6th level or greater (at this level, you are probably stronger than quite a few comic book heroes), let alone people of similar level. Let's not get this point construed as something else. Likewise, this point has not been effectively refuted once during this thread. Instead it has been repeatedly noted that high level armies can destroy high level PCs, which is effectively the same thing as noting that an army of 1st-3rd level NPCs will destroy a 3rd level PC.
Your assumptions are all about house rules -- you have house ruled that the army must be representing 'normal people' which you have narrowly defined, and without anything in core to back your position up which you also demand the right to define. Any attempt to refute your assumed position is either ignored or flatly denied on your presumed authority to define what the situation and terms involved mean.
As such this isn't a conversation, or a discussion -- it is at best you attempting to lecture and at worse you throwing a tantrum because the world isn't going your way and obeying you.
In either case there is no point in trying to continue to converse with you on the subject.
Please provide the level 10 character that can deal with this. I would love to see it.No.
I'm not talking about house rules. I'm talking about people being normal people. The Alexandrian page I linked to wasn't showing the correct way to play D&D, it was about calibration. It looks at what people can DO and then addresses it from there. There have been similar articles before 3E, such as an old one about Gandalf being a 5th level wizard.
My point was very simple, and has remained very simple. A 10th level D&D character can trump an army of people whose level is representing the realm of normal people (1-3rd), including the assumptions of alchemical goods, cheap magic items (potions, oils, etc), and fantastic creatures such as griffon mounts and such. I have not now nor ever declared that a 10th level character could defeat an army consisting of super-heroes, which is essentially anyone of 6th level or greater (at this level, you are probably stronger than quite a few comic book heroes), let alone people of similar level. Let's not get this point construed as something else. Likewise, this point has not been effectively refuted once during this thread. Instead it has been repeatedly noted that high level armies can destroy high level PCs, which is effectively the same thing as noting that an army of 1st-3rd level NPCs will destroy a 3rd level PC.
So let me make sure I understand you. The Army is 97.1% level 3 and below with most of them being NPC classes. If we use CR 3 and below, we are at 99.1% of the Army meets that. And it doesn't meet your standard of what an Army should be? Less than 3% are over level 3 and those are either the generals or the high level casters that should be available.
Nothing I did should be considered outrageous. I didn't even use "griffon mounts and such," which should actually have higher than level 3 characters riding them.
Do you think that you could provide a build that could take on 97% of that army? I would be impressed if you could take on a quarter of them.
For the breakdown per level:
CR 1 and below: 7283 (72.8%)
CR 1-2: 1620 (16.2%)
CR 2-3: 802 (8%)
CR 3-4: 207 (2.1%)
CR 6: 51 (0.5%)
CR 10: 6 (0.1%)
CR 11: 2 (less than 0.1%)
CR 12: 1 (less than 0.1%)
CR 14: 4 (less than 0.1%)
This leaves 24 unaccounted for spell casters of various levels but none at level 15 or higher. That's 0.2% of the army.
Your assumptions are all about house rules -- you have house ruled that the army must be representing 'normal people' which you have narrowly defined, and without anything in core to back your position up which you also demand the right to define. Any attempt to refute your assumed position is either ignored or flatly denied on your presumed authority to define what the situation and terms involved mean.
As such this isn't a conversation, or a discussion -- it is at best you attempting to lecture and at worse you throwing a tantrum because the world isn't going your way and obeying you.
In either case there is no point in trying to continue to converse with you on the subject.
No, because I'm not saying that all armies have to follow that. In fact, I noted that if an army is stocked with fellow superfriends, then the superfriends aren't going to have much luck. I have pointed out that an army of normal-ish people can be defeated by a 10th level character. Nothing more, nothing less.
I even gave examples as to how it can be done, without heavy optimization. Easy peasy. I pointed out some ways as to this being done, and none of those ways is refutable without simply adding people who are also superhuman. Which is my point. Sufficiently high level people simply dominate lower level people. You stand a chance if you have higher level peeps on your own.
Not once. Not even a single time, have I said that a 10th level character can take on an army of normal people plus superhumans. I'm not even arguing that the core rules say your army has to be made up of normal people (I'm pretty sure I've never said that). I have only said that against normal people, a 10th level PC can win. So far, that has not been proven wrong, nor a particularly strong case made against it that doesn't involve pulling in some superhumans, or fudging the rules. In fact, there have been several times that I have spelled out methods including spells and such used by the character as to how this was done.
For example, I pointed out using hide from animals to essentially ignore guard dogs as they cannot perceive you via sight, sound, scent, or otherwise, and noted its long duration. I noted spike growth as a CC/Damaging spell versus tightly packed groups of people. I noted the math behind my examples (such as the Stealth results) where others just chided that eventually the ranger would roll a 1 and they'd find him (and he wouldn't). However, the very next post by Bob_Loblaw was going on about the guard dogs and their scent quality, which while nearly useless for actually finding the Ranger anyway (due to move-action requirements on scent) was negated by the fact the ranger was immune to begin with (and already noted to be).
See, I'm not making this out to be something it isn't. People keep trying to argue that an army with superheroes won't lose to a single superhero. Yeah, duh, we got that. Nobody ever suggested that. Congratulations, you're not a moron. However, nobody has actually managed to explain how a 10th level character can't defeat an army of normal people.
So what you call lecturing and throwing tantrums, I call defending my point. That defense extends to defacing or otherwise trying to portray my point as something else, or try to turn this into something else; a ploy I have fallen into several times already (having been drawn into a tangential nonsense discussion about Core and not Core, and the stupidity of having super prostitutes) only to realize I was drawn away from my point to talk about stuff that has nothing to do with my point at all - a point which has neither changed nor been debunked.
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Your assumptions are all about house rules -- you have house ruled that the army must be representing 'normal people' which you have narrowly defined, and without anything in core to back your position up which you also demand the right to define. Any attempt to refute your assumed position is either ignored or flatly denied on your presumed authority to define what the situation and terms involved mean.
This was my conclusion about 3-4 days ago as well.
In either case there is no point in trying to continue to converse with you on the subject.
Agreed.
See, I'm not making this out to be something it isn't. People keep trying to argue that an army with superheroes won't lose to a single superhero. Yeah, duh, we got that. Nobody ever suggested that. Congratulations, you're not a moron. However, nobody has actually managed to explain how a 10th level character can't defeat an army of normal people.
You can't have an army of all normal people (by your definition, any one level 5 or below). It would fall apart. Instead you'd have chaos and many smaller units without any central leadership. Even if we only have each unit run by someone one level higher than the next highest in his unit, we will still have some level 6 through 8 characters.
Honestly, the army I built has less than 0.7% of the army at "super human" so I would hardly call it a super human army. I even said you could try to take out 25% of the Army and I'd be impressed. I would have to say that 50% or more is a win.
The only thing I would mention is that you would have to do it in one assault. Once you leave, the army will shore up its defenses and you will not be able to succeed a second time.
So what you call lecturing and throwing tantrums, I call defending my point. That defense extends to defacing or otherwise trying to portray my point as something else, or try to turn this into something else; a ploy I have fallen into several times already (having been drawn into a tangential nonsense discussion about Core and not Core, and the stupidity of having super prostitutes) only to realize I was drawn away from my point to talk about stuff that has nothing to do with my point at all - a point which has neither changed nor been debunked.
I actually believe that I not only debunked your claim, I beat it down so that it shouldn't surface again. The soldiers I chose were not super prostitutes (although they may be present in the support staff). Most were simply NPC classes (the lowest 2 tiers cover 89% of the Army). That's a vast majority. The next toughest tier is a mix of NPC and PC classes, with most still being NPC. I didn't break that down (I did provide some data though). This is only 8% of the army. Once we get to the 3rd echelon on up, we are at PC classes. There just aren't that many left though. The next tier is only 2.1% of the army and that concludes the "normals." By themselves they comprise 99.1% of the Army.
Can you build a level 10 character that can deal with those 99%?
The soldiers have a 7 Intelligence and Charisma for several major reasons.
7 Intelligence isn't mentally retarded. The 3.x system was designed under the assumption that Int 3 is high enough to not only be a sentient morality considering being, but also high enough to have a varied skill set and function in society (especially if your other mental stats aren't completely hosed).
But I digress.
Anyway, having grown up in an area full if military personnel, having family that's military, having friends that are military, and literally living with a marine in my own home, I'm no stranger to just how tough the military is. I get to hear a lot about the army, the marines, and in my uncle's case the navy, and a friend of mine was in the air force for about about a decade.
Thing is, I'm under no illusion that they are super humans. They're people. That's actually what makes them so damned impressive is the fact they are just people. They're trained in body and mind to be great, but they die just like everyone else. One of my friends who has sat in this very room with me and played on the X-Box died in action recently, despite his armor, his training, and everything. Why? Because he was a human being. He was a person, and he wasn't a super hero. He was a living, breathing, thinking, bleeding man.
So don't talk to me like real people are somehow equivalent to high level D&D characters. Just don't do it. I know the military is full of tough men and women. I get that. But they're not superheroes. They're not even comic book style mundanes like batman, dodging bullets and beating up badguys with guns with their fists and utility belt.
In a fantasy army you can have anything you damn well can imagine. If I wanted, everyone in my fantasy world could all be demigods. Maybe any army worth its salt has a terrasque waiting under their military base for the time in which it can go destroy Tokyo. Maybe things like gorgons, wraiths, manticore, chimeras, and other mythical beasts could be common sights on the battlefield. Maybe armies of iron golems march against swarms of the undead, while 20th level liches do battle in the skies above.
But those aren't normal people. Those are fantastical super heroes. I'm talking about an army of mundanes. The guys who you might actually be able to draw a parallel to in reality. Sure, they have access to magic, and potions, and have strategies for really screwing with most foes with little to no effort. But at some point, you get a big bad that's big and bad enough that you just need another super hero.
Profession boating IS useful. Craft haberdashery is very unlikely to come in handy. Maybe on Sunder attempts against bad James Bond villains.
You're just jealous you don't have a jaunty hat like Mr. Fishy.
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I think Ashiel is coming at this from a different viewpoint than us. She says 10,000 man army but seems to mean a theoretical group of 10,000 NPCs who are gathered together but do not exist to engage in actual military functions. Her example army does not even have leadership.
Bob_ has great ideas but those are colored by his experience with an excellent military organization. Militaries in most countries of the world are dysfunctional wrecks. While the US Army might respond well to intrusions the Egyptian military would probably be like the keystone cops. This also gets into the concept of all volunteer vs conscripts. A mostly conscript army will not react as well as a volunteer army.
Bob_'s army is something Cheliax might field. They are well organized and strong.
Galt (Revolution!) would likely have something closer to Ashiel's but with the leader of the month plus a few stronger types.
Taldor could likely field a strong looking army with a wide variety of troops. A lot of the forces will have been raised by rich nobles who might want to personally lead them. Many of the nobles might have stupid ideas about battle (similar to the French at Agincourt) making the army much less effective than it looks.
I would wager that Galt's army could be routed by a single 10th level character. The other two would crush that character.
Mr. Fishy would like to point out 10,000 arrows...roll save.
OP - I don't think you're viewing this in quite the right light.
If your PCs don't fit in with the local culture, if they aren't viewed as functional members of mainstream society and if they stick out like a sore thumb - THAT'S A GOOD THING.
I'm going out on a limb here and thinking you might want to be running a campaign focused on adventure. Color me crazy, but I think that's what Pathfinder is best at.
You don't want the NPCs to view PCs as a good future son-in-law or business partner, promising able hand or good neighbor. They NEED to be seen as outcasts, layabouts, troublemakers or threats. You NEED to let the PCs know that they are discriminated against by the locals, just enough to make them think "someday, I'm gonna prove that they were wrong about me" but not so much that they think "someday, I'm gonna burn this whole wretched place to the ground". (unless you were aiming for THAT sort of campaign...)
You need to give them that one ray of hope for a happy ending. The mayor's daughter, who thinks that a PC is nice, even though her father thinks that the Sheriff's son is a better match. The Wizard's apprentice who has a not-so-secret crush on a PC, even though the wizard wants to marry them off to the GuildMaster's kid for political gain, etc.
The PC has to know that they have a rival with all the establishment advantages of higher class, more money, better gear, political power, etc. They have to think out of the box to get what they want.
They have to answer the call and go to the places that civilized people avoid. They have to do things that townsfolk won't.
They have to go become adventurers.
I'm gonna level with ya... I didn't agree with you at first, but you won me over by the end of your comment! This is one of the best mission-statements I've seen for starting PCs.
I didn't include the leadership for the army for these reasons.
The leaders would likely be Aristocrat/Experts or just Experts, with many of them probably versed in logistical combat strategies, and having a varied skill set as well. Most would be capable of fighting well enough to be considered soldiers themselves or even veterans (since aristocrats and adepts have a 3/4 BAB, any 2nd level one is easily the equivalent to a 1st level soldier, and any 3rd level one is a 2nd level soldier, etc).
If you want, I can build the whole army if that's desired, complete with stats. However, most of my point was made a long time ago. A 10th level ranger, without hyperspecialization, is stealthy enough to be unobservable by most any mundane character, tough enough to survive through skirmishes against groups of the army easily enough (by groups, I mean if he was attacking a camp, he probably wouldn't fight the entire army in one solid mass, because they would be split by tents, wagons, etc), and his spells can remove large numbers of his foes, and allow him to completely evade animals.
But people continue to insist on adding superheroes to battles. This isn't a strategic or leadership problem, it's a capabilities problem. The maximum potential is based on level, and when your maximum potential cannot exceed the minimum potential of your adversary, you are at an extreme disadvantage. So much so that with proper planning on the side of your opponent, your forces have only one option: get their own superheroes, or bunker down*.
*: By bunker down, I mean essentially being inside a fortress, or otherwise not in a mobile campaigning state. You'd need doors and windows that were locked, warded, and traps. Essentially, a fantasy military fortress. While stocked with normal people, would essentially make the defeat of the entire army impossible for a 10th level character, because it would limit mobility, and force the ranger to fight entirely on your terms.
For example...
Ravingdork asked for some help in this thread, because he wanted to make a goblin warren that would challenge his 9th level party. The details are in his post. My response essentially breaks down tactics that reduce the party's advantages based on environment, planning, and so forth. I intentionally kept the goblins and such at 1st level, and included a CR 1 multiclassed goblin, and a CR 5 prestige-classed goblin for special encounters with the heroes who were also within the fortress; but the CR 1 and 5 goblins are merely icing and not really even needed.
However, these goblins would have far less success in an open warfare situation, but can mercilessly butcher a 9th level party within their own base of operations.
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I don't really care about the army's stats.
The base argument here is if what you are presenting is really representative of a military force. Of course, that gets into the question of whose military force. As I said before different nations will field different forces.
In my opinion the question of whether a 10th level character can beat an army needs clarification and really needs to be turned around.
Does an army exist that an 10th level character can defeat?
I say yes and I give Galt as a nation that might field a weak army. There are types of armies and forces that can be defeated. A tribal nation where the army represents forces from different tribes might be such a candidate. They might present a strong force but tribal rivalry might prevent effective cooperation.
Can a 10th level character beat any army?
No. Stronger nations will field stronger more capable armies. A 10th level character might cause short term disruption if attacking personnel. He might cause more trouble if attacking supplies or supply lines.
I don't really care about the army's stats.
The base argument here is if what you are presenting is really representative of a military force. Of course, that gets into the question of whose military force. As I said before different nations will field different forces.
In my opinion the question of whether a 10th level character can beat an army needs clarification and really needs to be turned around.
Does an army exist that an 10th level character can defeat?
I say yes and I give Galt as a nation that might field a weak army. There are types of armies and forces that can be defeated. A tribal nation where the army represents forces from different tribes might be such a candidate. They might present a strong force but tribal rivalry might prevent effective cooperation.
Can a 10th level character beat any army?
No. Stronger nations will field stronger more capable armies. A 10th level character might cause short term disruption if attacking personnel. He might cause more trouble if attacking supplies or supply lines.
Fair enough. :)
StuffJust need to say Bob neither you nor I nor Ash nor in fact anyone living in this world today has ever been a member of this fantasy army nor have we been members of the medieval/renaissance armies they are loosely based upon. And I feel your opinion is badly colored by your experience in a modern professional standing army which are very highly specialized and in general more biased towards the ability to think intelligently than the ability to cut a man in half with a piece of metal.
Now that isn't to say you're wrong just that you shouldn't assume your experience is indicative of how this army would function.
Murderous Hobos?
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Murderous Hobos?StuffJust need to say Bob neither you nor I nor Ash nor in fact anyone living in this world today has ever been a member of this fantasy army nor have we been members of the medieval/renaissance armies they are loosely based upon. And I feel your opinion is badly colored by your experience in a modern professional standing army which are very highly specialized and in general more biased towards the ability to think intelligently than the ability to cut a man in half with a piece of metal.
Now that isn't to say you're wrong just that you shouldn't assume your experience is indicative of how this army would function.
More like an army of Murderous Hobos.
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Hey I take offense to that! We're murderous wealthy homeowners! Who as far as I can remember don't ever take baths ...More like an army of Murderous Hobos.Murderous Hobos?StuffJust need to say Bob neither you nor I nor Ash nor in fact anyone living in this world today has ever been a member of this fantasy army nor have we been members of the medieval/renaissance armies they are loosely based upon. And I feel your opinion is badly colored by your experience in a modern professional standing army which are very highly specialized and in general more biased towards the ability to think intelligently than the ability to cut a man in half with a piece of metal.
Now that isn't to say you're wrong just that you shouldn't assume your experience is indicative of how this army would function.
Not all of them were so wealthy. Even among the 1% there is a 1%.
StuffJust need to say Bob neither you nor I nor Ash nor in fact anyone living in this world today has ever been a member of this fantasy army nor have we been members of the medieval/renaissance armies they are loosely based upon. And I feel your opinion is badly colored by your experience in a modern professional standing army which are very highly specialized and in general more biased towards the ability to think intelligently than the ability to cut a man in half with a piece of metal.
Now that isn't to say you're wrong just that you shouldn't assume your experience is indicative of how this army would function.
You are right. Even if we looked only at historical armies, none of us would have personal experience. When I served, my job was to be well trained on the tactics and armies of several nations, not just America. It was more than just what was learned in basic training. I had to know and understand how and why they functioned the way they did. There are significant differences between the world's forces. It's one of the problems that we had when we invaded Afghanistan and Iraq. Leadership didn't take into account the problems with fighting against non-conventional forces.
I have studied a lot of military history, again because that was a requirement for what I did. There are some things that are normal parts of any army, and leadership is one of them. Some, like the "military" in Afghanistan has many small armies loosely organized through their warlords. Others, like the former Soviet army, was very structured but all the tactics and intelligence was centralized with leadership and the grunts simply followed orders. Most of their leaders led from the rear. The US Army gives as much information as possible to their troops. Obviously there is a lot not mentioned, but they do give a lot more intel to the grunts than other nations. The US Army tends to have their leadership in the field, often right up in the thick of things. The highest leadership is in the rear only because that's where they are needed to coordinate the forces.
When I look at a Pathfinder army, I look at historical armies and how they were organized. I also look at what the books say should be expected. Sure, there are differences. Apparently Galt and Cheliax (I don't play in Golarian) have very different armies. That's to be expected, being different types of nations.
In Pathfinder, the common NPCs were provided. Using that information, plus the stuff in the CRB and GMG, it is very easy to build an army. When you hit 10k soldiers, if you aren't organized, you're a hoard. I wonder what that would look like. I think I'll do some work on that. A hoard would be very different in structure and purpose.
Part of the problem with this discussion is that the army was never defined. In general, an army is seen as a large fighting force. An army is "a large organized body of armed personnel trained for war especially on land" or "a unit capable of independent action and consisting usually of a headquarters, two or more corps, and auxiliary troops." This doesn't sound like a bunch of Experts. It sounds like these people are trained for combat. Nothing I posted would be weird for a standard army. I think that most people see a fantasy army much like our historical armies. No matter what though, with less than 1% of the army being "super human," I don't see my army as being outside the boundaries of what we were discussing.