So maybe I am a little late to the dance but I was going to throw my two cps into the worth of professions and craft skills. Like any other skill it really is up to the DM to reward or punish the choices in the skills.
I certainly sympathize with the arguement that given the choice between profession boyer/fletcher and survival chances are they will pick survival and this certainly makes sense and I would never knock the guy with only a few skill points for not taking a craft of profession but I might ask them what they did before adventuring to survive. Not for the purpose of granting skills but to make them think about the fact that adventurer is not always a career choice often it is thrust upon you.
If you are trying to encourage characters that have "real lives" in the campaing world and so fourth there are a number of things you can do to deal with this.
1- Up the chance that magic items might be cursed if they do not make the item themselves. Part of the intamacy in crafting the item requires mastery.
2- The next time you want to start a campaign let them have the option to take 2 or 3 levels of NPC classes they will have a few more hitpoints and a lot more skills. The really lets you take the gloves off for the 1st few levels too double the number of orcs in that first encounter, why fight skellys when the room could be full of ghasts instead and gives the freedom to take non min/maxed choices.
3- I loved the idea of bonus rewards to writing a detailed background. I have thought about doing that as well. Giving out skill focus feats, regional feats, and so forth.
4- When the players turn in a character without these types of skills chosen ask probing questions about how they do fit into society. Make some suggestions of ways they do fit in that make sense. Maybe a young future fighter spent all his time working for the local militia it explains his chosen skills and how he fit in other than caravan gard, thug, or mercenary.
5- There has been a lot of talk of lazy daydreamers who one day became adventurers. The craft and profession skills do contain verbage not only how to perform the menial tasks but to use all the proper tools supervise others and so fourth. It is completely resonable for the son of a farmer to work at his father's direction or for the PC's to have little aptitdue in a profession that he worked in as an assistant, before destiny called them to something bigger.
6- Make professions meaningful when your ranger uses survival to forage for berries and bring back some venison ask him if he wants to skin the deer because after all he can sell it for a few gold. He might suceed he might not but when he fails you can remind him that a rank or two in furrier might go a long way, this also works when they fight wolves, bears, owlbears, and all manner of magical beast. Don't take for granted that their gear will get fixed when they get back to town. The next time the ogre hits the rogue for 20 hp or knocks him below 0 his suit of studded leather is torn up pretty bad he can go on wearing it giving him a -2 to attack and -2 armor check penalty (give it a saving throw if it is enchanted) or have it repaired. Craft leatherworking now looks a lot more useful. This goes on and on, the fighter who rolled a 1 and dropped his sword also put a big nick in it, now it has no crit range at all and a -1 to hit. If you had weaponsmithing you could get out your kit and repair that when you get to the next camp. This can get tedious but done effectively makes the skills you are worried about more meaningful. If you only run dungeon crawls don't expect the rogue to take sense motive over disable device. If you run a lot of wilderness adventures you are not going to find the cleric spending skill points in diplomacy.
And the ranger moves quick. Since there's no listed DC to hear someone die. Sure, the animals could smell the blood inside the tents...if they're really close to it. Tents block emanations and such, and prevent it from being downwind. I'm sure that they would notice people were dead, but they wouldn't know how or why. They would know they weren't alone, but no one would see you. So you slink about and make kills as is convenient to do so. If they make it less convenient, like bunching up in a big open space, toss up a wind wall, drop a spike growth, and walk away to harry them tomorrow, or later today, or something else.
How much damage do you have to do to defeat an army, I wonder. Do we need to slaughter every last guy? Given time, we'll do it. You want to talk about realism? How about the fear of sleeping? People go to sleep and then end up dying. You never know when he'll be back, and there's not much you can do to defend yourself against him with normal resources.
How far do you need to push before the army breaks? How many captains or leaders do you need to kill? How many of your horses, resources, and so forth do you have to lose before the army falls apart? How many things do you need to set fire to, or poison, before the army is dead.
Unless this army is riding the short wagons into battle, your ranger will have 1 night to attempt this. After that, he will fail. Defenses will be up and he will not have the chance to do it again the next night. Even a group of level 1 commoners will adapt to this fast as all hell. However an army does not consist of only level 1 commoners.
As a former infantry soldier, I promise you that your ranger would be unlikely to be very effective even the first night. He would most likely get in and out so quickly that he would only kill one or two. The longer he's there, the higher his chance of getting caught. He is also unlikely to get at the leadership. They will be higher level than the rest of the army but will also have better defenses.
How do they adept.
Oh the other option on skills is to use the 3.5 skill system for skill selection. It allowed for a lot more nuance. A character could make out the major skills but could also drop a few ranks in craft or profession to flesh out the back story.
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How would you adapt? You've tried to get creative if you were on the offense. What would you do on the defense?
Would you use traps that trigger alarms? Would you increase the number of people on guard? Would you consolidate important people and/or equipment and protect it? Would you use different magic? Would you adjust where things and people are located?
What would you do if a ranger was coming into your encampment? If you can't figure out anything, that would explain why you think a single ranger can defeat an entire army of 10k soldiers.
Oh the other option on skills is to use the 3.5 skill system for skill selection. It allowed for a lot more nuance. A character could make out the major skills but could also drop a few ranks in craft or profession to flesh out the back story.
I think that the GM is better served by giving more opportunity to use skills than what I generally see in campaigns. When I write an adventure, I tend to have several skills in mind for each skill challenge I use. This concept, not necessarily execution, from 4E is a good one. I like to use one from Alternity. You have to get X successes before you fail 3 times. The fewer successes, the easier the challenge. By allowing several options for skills, I also see more Aid Another actions. Instead of everyone rolling for a success, which can also be failures, the party works together. It's better to give one character a +2 than to risk failing.
How would you adapt? You've tried to get creative if you were on the offense. What would you do on the defense?
Shrug and point out he is why I use undead?
<rimshot>
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How would you adapt? You've tried to get creative if you were on the offense. What would you do on the defense?
I'd set a trap. Alarm spells with silent triggers in multiple spots. Not to catch him in the alarm, although if he's dumb enough to blunder over them, then that's fine. But to channel him into a part of the camp I want him in.
Then have lots of traps set up to go off when someone enters the tents. Not hard to build some really high DC traps with some low ones next to them to lull him into a false sense of security.
As soon as he sets off a trap, everyone around who's awake converges on that spot, keeping someone at shoulder length.
Oh, wait, no 5 ft squares without someone in them, and the entire camp is waiting for that alarm to go off, so they all pour out of the tents to fill up the available space. So, no fleeing the camp. Instead, they simply move to fill in all available space until someone bumps into the stealthed ranger, or he destealths to kill someone, then he dies.
Yes, brute force, but very effective especially if you have 10,000 people.
I'm sure that the ranger will suddenly develop wings to fly at this point, to which I'll point out that was the whole purpose of getting him into a tent in the first place before setting off the traps, see, the traps drop the tent on the people inside. No amount of stealthing or displacement conceals the lump you make under the tent. :) And it's hard to fly through canvas. :)
Mdt, you were looking for information from soldiers on how the military would be on alert. Did I answer your question or do you need more info?
Mdt, you were looking for information from soldiers on how the military would be on alert. Did I answer your question or do you need more info?
Nope, that was pretty much it. That's exactly what I expected honestly. Thanks!
What's funny is that we're still going to be told that an army won't act the way an army should act. In the past, I've had others who have never served, tell me that I didn't understand how a soldier would act. I hope this doesn't go that route.
They should totally prepare defenses for the following night, but here's the kicker. Those alarm spells? Well they're 20ft, and require someone to walk through it without using the password. But even if they know the ranger is in the camp, what are they going to do about it? They can't find the ranger, after all. Also, I have a hard time believing that they are going to encircle the entire camp, or stay massively bunched up, because 1) the ranger can pass by them with an easy acrobatics check which is lower than his mods, and 2) bunching up is asking to die (for much the same reason you don't use phalanxes in D&D warfare. For example, the moment that they get all bunched up and such, spike growth, and he drops 20 ft * 7 radius areas of unseen death in their space and all around them. Or tosses some fireball beads into their ranks.
Nobody has yet to explain what the army does about the ranger crippling them as well. No animals means nothing to carry their junk. No food and water means the army that marches on its stomach is in trouble. Setting the camp on fire by dropping some tindertwigs on the ground as a free action while he's moving means that stuff gets set on fire.
I'm intentionally keeping his strategies simple, and the number of magic items he is using down, just so people won't piss & moan. I'm not being very elaborate, or even getting into really complex territory. The ranger himself can more or less stop an army. Even if he doesn't kill everyone in the camp, he can cripple them in such a way they will either never get to their destination, or will give up trying because all your resources are destroyed, animals driven off, food spoiled, water poisoned, your canteen pissed in, etc.
I'm bored of this though...this isn't as amusing as it was before. Most of the rebuttals are basically coming down to "Well they would counter him!" but with little explanation as to how. Alarm spells don't reveal the Ranger, and keeping alarm spells around with people on steady patrol for the ranger means they are nigh useless, as they will either continually be tripped or you got a bunch of dudes constantly speaking the password aloud to pass through the areas without setting them off.
I also have to ask where they are making all these elaborate high DC traps from? I mean, the cost of those traps is pretty damn high, and I don't think you will be using your solder's Craft Trapsmithing skill to craft it in a night, or even seven nights, since it's going to need at least 500 gp worth, but will more likely cost more like 3000-7000 gp, and if you use an alarm trigger, then it also has to be done by one of your 3rd level adepts with Craft Wondrous Item.
Anyway, I think I'm going to go play Skyrim.
Shrug and point out he is why I use undead?
<rimshot>
Speaking of undead, that's how I'd take the army out if I was a cleric. I'm sure most people here have seen from LotR that a buncha incorporeal undead are pretty nasty to an army. If you want a cleric to take them out quickly, or a necromancer wizard, use Command Undead on a Shadow, and use it to attack the army. As an incorporeal creature it makes no sound and can pass through objects, and even through the ground. It can rise up into a tent and coup de grace someone for 2d6 strength damage (or 2d8 if it's a greater shadow). Heck, you could send them in packs to make sure there's no room for error.
Then as the first guy dies, he vanishes and becomes a shadow under your shadow's control. Your shadow has orders to use all of its minions to kill everyone, then return to you. As each new shadow is born, it turns and adds to the killing. None of them make sounds, and can bypass lit areas by moving through the ground due to incorporeality (so if you have points of light, then you can move underground through the points of light, and arise where it is dim or dark again).
Since the expansion is exponential, and the majority of soldiers won't be able to effectively hurt them (their magic weapon oils will help them deal half damage once they have grabbed them and applied them, but they have to hit them, and deal about 26 damage per shadow to kill them, while the shadows mob one guy at a time, turning them into another shadow). The knights or anyone in heavy armor are actually the most vulnerable to the shadows.
On a side note, wraith and shadow rogues (such as having create greater undead cast on your party's rogue, though it may require the character to regain their class levels all over again, depending on how you rule it) are pretty mean because of this. They get their sneak attacks with their touches, which means it's incredibly effective for a shadow or wraith rogue to take somebody out with their sneak attacks, and it makes them oh so much stealthier. I prefer shadow rogues because they aren't powerless in daylight.
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Moving the goalposts are we?
If I remember correctly, I said about 6 pages ago a level 10 could slow down, or cause a 10,000 man army enough problems to make a difference in war. At the time, the claim, by you, was that your level 10 fighter could slaughter them at will without ever taking any damage.
Well, we debunked that one, the fighter died, and then it was my ranger can slaughter them all in their sleep at night without any way to stop them. Then we started debunking that.
Now we're down to, a 10,000 man army is limited to 100gp kits for each person, and no supplies to make traps or anything else that might inconvenience my ranger, but hay, it doesn't make any difference, because even if I can't kill all 10,000 by myself like I said, I can hit their supply lines, and cause enough mischief that they can't be as effective as they could be!
So.. we are apparently in agreement at last. Your single level 10 can't slaughter 10,000 1-3's as if he were a general in Dynasty Warriors, but he can cause enough grief to the army to make a difference in the war.
Hurray!
Concensus at last!
So really, you are saying no one in an army is third level? That's the problem Ashiel, what the army is and what it can do, is really dependent on what the army is and what it can do. I'll give you some examples of armies that would not just be peasant conscripts.
Mongols, we'll say 1220s to 1240s. Many towns have been taken, people conquerered, their kit has improved along the way. Everyone in the army has shot people (or lanced or maced) and been in a number of successful battles. If you wanted to put it in the rules, they might be an army of rangers favoured enemy humans at this stage, average level 4-5 with some very badass leaders. What level is Subutai? His bodyguard? The men he trusts?
I forgot to reply to this one, but intended to, so I'll do that right quick.
This is what makes me laugh. Those armies were like 1st-3rd level at best. MAYBE their leaders were 4th, or 5th level. Warriors aren't peasant conscripts by the way. Experts and Commoners are peasant conscripts. Warriors are warriors. They get the 5 + Con HP, +1 BAB/level, and full weapon, armor, and shield proficiencies (even tower shields like Fighters).
Third level is already an elite warrior in real life terms. They are born and bred death to commoners everywhere. They can take 2-3 normal trained soldiers by themselves. When being 1 vs 3 isn't being outnumbered, then you're definitely the creme of the crop.
If you wanted to put it in the rules, they were probably an army of warriors and experts, with an assortment of skills. Not levels in ranger, and not with an animal companion, and probably not favored enemy. We're talking about normal people here. NORMAL PEOPLE. Real life mortals.
Commoners, whom many of their victims would have been, are AC 10, 3-4 Hp, and on foot. Mongolians rode horseback (Ride skill) and shot people using their composite shortbows (average 4.5 damage or better) from horseback, allowing the to fire and keep moving. Most of their foes weren't in particularly heavy armor either.
Now against a 1st level warrior in studded leather armor, or some similar equivalent, they're looking to shoot about AC 14, or maybe 16, if the soldier has a shield, and the guy likely has about 5-7 hit points at best (1/2 HD + Con mod of +0 - +2). They can kill the dude in a single shot (dropping him to the ground to bleed out), without counting point blank shot (which they can generally use as their horse moves past you) which pushes their average damage to about 5.5 or better.
A 3rd level warrior would be elite. He would have him some nice gear (like a masterwork composite shortbow), a +3 to hit from BAB, and probably a +2 to +3 bonus to hit due to Dexterity. That means he would hit 1st level warriors with shields from horseback from up to 70 ft away with more than 50% accuracy, and an additional +1 to hit and damage if their horse is moving within 30 feet of them while they're doing it.
Also by 3rd level, they can easily afford to take Rapid Shot (Point Blank at 1st, Precise Shot for human, Rapid Shot at 3rd), which means that with a -2 penalty to hit, they can drop up to two guys every 6 seconds while their horse moves at a speed of 50 ft with no penalties to hit, or focus fire on a guy until he is assuredly dead.
The idea that their army was in some way a high level is just silly.
Moving the goalposts are we?
If I remember correctly, I said about 6 pages ago a level 10 could slow down, or cause a 10,000 man army enough problems to make a difference in war. At the time, the claim, by you, was that your level 10 fighter could slaughter them at will without ever taking any damage.
I never said without taking damage.
Well, we debunked that one, the fighter died, and then it was my ranger can slaughter them all in their sleep at night without any way to stop them. Then we started debunking that.
If by debunked you mean b@~@#ed and moaned about methodology. Likewise, your counters to the ranger, as I pointed out, don't work. So no debunking there.
Now we're down to, a 10,000 man army is limited to 100gp kits for each person, and no supplies to make traps or anything else that might inconvenience my ranger, but hay, it doesn't make any difference, because even if I can't kill all 10,000 by myself like I said, I can hit their supply lines, and cause enough mischief that they can't be as effective as they could be!
The ranger will hit their supplies and such while killing them. It might take him a few nights, but as I pointed out, there is little that an army of normal people + their resources can do against a 10th level ranger, or a variety of 10th level characters (especially any with access to magic).
So.. we are apparently in agreement at last. Your single level 10 can't slaughter 10,000 1-3's as if he were a general in Dynasty Warriors, but he can cause enough grief to the army to make a difference in the war.
Hurray!
Concensus at last!
I can live with this.
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Ashiel,
We're not playing in ancient mongolia, and ancient mongolia didn't have dragons or anything else.
So if you assume the modern world can only have up to level 5 people, that's fine. Since we're playing Pathfinder, not 'real life', that's pretty irrelevant.
Also, trying to place arbitrary limits on NPC/Army levels is a house-rule. There is not a single line in the book about NPCs only being up to level 5. In fact, the game system specifically calls out that they can range from 1 to 20. It does this by detailing each and every level from 1 to 20 for the NPCs. If it was core rules that NPCs were only ever 1 to 5, then there would only be 5 levels of NPC classes.
Therefore, your claims that it's against the core rules for anyone to be above 5th level for an NPC, or that the world is populated by 1st to 5th level npcs only is a lie.
No I didn't lose the argument. There is no win or lose that argument, as anything I come up with you will come up with a counter, which I will counter, which you will counter. Basically, it's a round robin. I'll continue it if you wish... See bottom of post...
My point is, the entire premise of a 10,000 man army who's all level 1 to 3 is debunked by the rules (which is what I posted previously). As to them not being Core rules... I can only sit here in a complete shock at that statement. I've reread the books inner cover 2 or 3 times, and it sure as heck seems to be a Paizo book, in the Pathfinder RPG line. It's not put out by Purple Duck Games or anything, which says to me, it's core rules. Unless you're definition of 'core' is the original 576 page manual only. However, if this is the case, then nobody can ever say what is core or what is not, since there are no guidelines in this book.
If you look back, you will see several times I have said the concept of an army of 10,000 where the highest level guy in it is 3 is absurd on it's face. Even within those limits however, your attempt with the ranger still doesn't work.
You are correct, a displacement cloak will allow you to make a stealth check if you are able to distract everyone looking at you when you make it.
If people are observing you using any of their senses (but typically sight), you can't use Stealth. Against most creatures, finding cover or concealment allows you to use Stealth. If your observers are momentarily distracted (such as by a Bluff check), you can attempt to use Stealth. While the others turn their attention from you, you can attempt a Stealth check if you can get to an unobserved place of some kind. This check, however, is made at a –10 penalty because you have to move fast.Notice that his magic 30 just went down to a 20. Also, you ignored my question about guard dogs, who have scent, and to whom a displacement cloak is useless, as is most of those stealth bonuses.
The...
If it was a hastily assembled peasant militia army led by an incompetent, with no elite mercs, no warriors from a warrior tradition or aristocracy, no veteran scouts (no veterans at all), yes, everyone in the army could be under level 3.
The average level of an army should be determined by how veteran they are, what its composition is, what has this army done? Are they veterans from numerous wars? Are there some really specialised adventurer like units? Any heroes, how many?
When someone argues that you can use an uprooted bush or cloak of displacement for all day stealth, they have lost the argument. This is a prime example of when "common sense" is meant to be used.
And when example NPCs are handwaved away because someone doesn't like them, again the argument has been lost. These NPCs were created by the very people who wrote the Pathfinder rules (3.5 no longer applies because the base assumptions are different).
The simple fact is that an army of 10k in a fantasy setting will have more than simple folk in the battles. What if the army isn't human? What about an army of mixed races like goblins, orcs, ogres, and hobgoblins? What if they also had other assests like beasts of burden appropriate to them? What about an army of medusa? What about an army that uses flying mounts?
This is a fantasy world. Sticking to our historical model of an army is not appropriate.
I ran, for a few years, a game called the Lords Game.
Went through a lot of settings. Players built armies, were dukes, kings etc. One of the nicest armies I ever saw was a character who played a Zhent general, he had problems with manpower so he took what he could.The army.
Core of zhent heavy infantry.
Detachments of zhent medium archers. After conquering much of the dalelands, daleland bowmen were conscripted into the units, mixed in, given benefits. Some were scout groups.
Troll flankers or charge units. Later these became quite armoured.
Smaller units of very elite mercs, for specific tasks.
A very reasonable fantasy army of a successful state.
Ashiel, I have to give you credit. You found a way to get 10,000 people killed by one person in one night.
I just wish I could figure out how the other 9,999 people (and counting down) keep failing their rolls to notice the dead bodies piling up, the blood pooling up around the tents, and so on.
9 pints of blood in a single person, if we assume only half leaks out from a slit throat (which is actually very conservative), then that's 4.5 pints * 10,000 = 45,000 pints. That's over 5,600 gallons of blood.
Again, Ashiel, you are saying if everything works exactly the way you want. Nobody is ever allowed to make a perception roll to notice the bodies, to notice tent flaps moving on their own, to hear the guy who's throat just got slit making gurgling noises as he dies.
The dogs are not allowed to make a scent check for the smell of blood and raise the alarm. It's as if the ranger's uber stealth has some stick component to it that spreads out over the camp and hides all trace of anything he does as soon as he does it.
That's bull**** and you know it. Someone somewhere would walk into a tent and see bodies and start yelling and screaming and waking up the whole camp. But you disallow every NPC the ability to see a dead body or a pool of blood or anything. Of course you can kill 10,000 people when you have god on your side wiping out any trace of your presence as you pass and hiding all the bodies and the blood and everything else.
"Blood. I hope this isn't, Chris' blood."
Ashiel refuses to acknowledge that the ranger could be seen or detected. The build is very nice, and would be good for knocking off small camps, but when there are too many eyes and too many ears, the alarm is going to go off. It has already been admitted by Ashiel that the ranger can't take too many of them if they all attack at once.
So Ashiel keeps claiming they all can be killed without the ranger ever being detected. It is that simple.
Ashiel,
We're not playing in ancient mongolia, and ancient mongolia didn't have dragons or anything else.So if you assume the modern world can only have up to level 5 people, that's fine. Since we're playing Pathfinder, not 'real life', that's pretty irrelevant.
Also, trying to place arbitrary limits on NPC/Army levels is a house-rule. There is not a single line in the book about NPCs only being up to level 5. In fact, the game system specifically calls out that they can range from 1 to 20. It does this by detailing each and every level from 1 to 20 for the NPCs. If it was core rules that NPCs were only ever 1 to 5, then there would only be 5 levels of NPC classes.
Therefore, your claims that it's against the core rules for anyone to be above 5th level for an NPC, or that the world is populated by 1st to 5th level npcs only is a lie.
So we are still at the point that you lost your argument and now are turning to incorporate arguments outside of the original topic to be right after all.
Everyone who has even half a brain knows that a single 10th level character CANNOT DEFEAT A GROUP OF 10th LEVEL CHARACTERS! And even less when they have 9995 mooks with them.
So please stop pulling out this argument all the time and get over it that it is indeed possible to kill 10.000 persons with one lvl 10 fighter.
Oh and since both the Solar and the Terrasque are in the Mobster Manual it is safe to assume that the army is lead by a solar and his trusty steed, Terrasque. See? Your 10th level character cannot beat the army! HAH!
Mdt makes some good points. It is not really very plausible for the tenth level to defeat 10,000.
You can say mdt has lost, but he and others have pointed out how it highly unlikely and why, with a fighter, with a ranger, whatever the class.
Now you say the 10 can take 10k, but that a 10 can't take a party of 10. One of the most recent points is that a giant army is not going to just have the lowliest of grunts/peasant militia. What of elite mercs; what of elite troops; what of the general/s?
Something also overlooked through the idea that a fighter or ranger gets into an army camp and starts slitting throats, is did he get past the armies own scouts? What of their traps? What of their level?
I'm sure the ranger can kill plenty of low level scout squads, but what about groups of experienced mid-range level scouts/rogues or rangers? The types of people for whom dealing with a guerrilla fighter is not an unusual matter. The ranger/fighter will probably be above the level they are used to dealing with, that doesn't make him invincible to their squad tactics.
I have heard the single individual taking on an army and winning. Don't quite buy it. A level 10 melee character will get overwhelmed. A spell caster will have the problem of how many spells do they have that day. Even if there were plenty of scrolls on the spellcaster, how do they prevent themselves from being spotted in the long run. Guard dogs, sentries with skill focus perception etc. Not to mention the possibility of afew diviners assisting the army. It could go down south real quick. Invisibility lasts a while but ends after you make an attack. Greater invisibility is pretty short duration. Seen players who tried to pull it off, convinced their character was untouchable. Tended to end with dead characters or badly wounded characters who legged it with luck on their side.
What did bob say?
"As a former infantry soldier, I promise you that your ranger would be unlikely to be very effective even the first night. He would most likely get in and out so quickly that he would only kill one or two. The longer he's there, the higher his chance of getting caught. He is also unlikely to get at the leadership. They will be higher level than the rest of the army but will also have better defenses."
If the leadership are protected by literally too many guards to kill, before they raise the alarm, I'd imagine there would be a massive convergence on the invader.
What did bob say?
"As a former infantry soldier, I promise you that your ranger would be unlikely to be very effective even the first night. He would most likely get in and out so quickly that he would only kill one or two. The longer he's there, the higher his chance of getting caught. He is also unlikely to get at the leadership. They will be higher level than the rest of the army but will also have better defenses."
If the leadership are protected by literally too many guards to kill, before they raise the alarm, I'd imagine there would be a massive convergence on the invader.
Of course the Solar has a handful of handpicked Planetars as personal guards and a personal courier Acient Gold Dragon.
Armys should be treated as swarms for figuring damage. Asuming a level 10 fighter has max hp a 1,000 man army would kill the fighter in one round and only take about 50ho out of 1,000.
The ranger can do some serious damage to the army's morale and supply lines. There is no question. This is an extremely common tactic and used by nearly every army. Go do some research on Roger's Rangers. Make sure you are familiar with the tactics and capabilities. At no point is there a discussion on taking on the army head to head. There isn't even a discussion on sneaking in and taking them out from within. Note that the British army at the time was so predictable that you knew they would stop fighting at teatime.
If you want to know about defenses, simple traps are often enough. Remember that disabling a device still takes time. The more complex the more time. The longer you spend fiddling with something (or many somethings) the more likely you will be found.
It is also very unlikely that the ranger will take out even a 10th of the beasts for the army. Not only are these guarded and cared for, some are allowed to roam, like the dogs. If you want to see how attentive a trained dog can be, look at what a collie does with sheep. I have seen them do this with people too. They patrol and are on constant watch. Herd dogs do this. Different breeds of dogs would be used for different purposes.
The horses would be very hard to take out. Imagine the horses being treated like a modern day motorpool. This is how the army would travel as well as fight. Just like a modern army would protect their vehicles, so would an ancient or fantasy army.
I won't go into specifics bcause they aren't really necessary. It is so rare for a single person to take on an army that we reward that with a Medal of Honor, often postumously. Go read up on Audy Murphy. He survived, but look at what he had to deal with. He was on the defense and knew what he had to work with. An infiltrator doesn't have that knowledge.
The ranger can do some serious damage to the army's morale and supply lines. There is no question. This is an extremely common tactic and used by nearly every army. Go do some research on Roger's Rangers. Make sure you are familiar with the tactics and capabilities. At no point is there a discussion on taking on the army head to head. There isn't even a discussion on sneaking in and taking them out from within. Note that the British army at the time was so predictable that you knew they would stop fighting at teatime.
If you want to know about defenses, simple traps are often enough. Remember that disabling a device still takes time. The more complex the more time. The longer you spend fiddling with something (or many somethings) the more likely you will be found.
It is also very unlikely that the ranger will take out even a 10th of the beasts for the army. Not only are these guarded and cared for, some are allowed to roam, like the dogs. If you want to see how attentive a trained dog can be, look at what a collie does with sheep. I have seen them do this with people too. They patrol and are on constant watch. Herd dogs do this. Different breeds of dogs would be used for different purposes.
The horses would be very hard to take out. Imagine the horses being treated like a modern day motorpool. This is how the army would travel as well as fight. Just like a modern army would protect their vehicles, so would an ancient or fantasy army.
I won't go into specifics bcause they aren't really necessary. It is so rare for a single person to take on an army that we reward that with a Medal of Honor, often postumously. Go read up on Audy Murphy. He survived, but look at what he had to deal with. He was on the defense and knew what he had to work with. An infiltrator doesn't have that knowledge.
They cannot find him on a 20 if he rolls a 1. And he can be in the square right next to them because he has a cloak of minor displacement which enables him to always have concealment.
They simply cannot find him.
As well he can go inside a tent. Kill everyone inside and if he kills all people who are inside faster than anybody gets in from the outside (most probably one round only) he can go into stealth again and go wherever he likes because he has his cloak.
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This is not reality. You are not trying to sneak into an infantry camp. It is a 10th level Hero in D&D sneaking into an infantry camp.
They cannot find him on a 20 if he rolls a 1. And he can be in the square right next to them because he has a cloak of minor displacement which enables him to always have concealment.They simply cannot find him.
I thought we'd finished this argument, but if you want to go round the robin again...
The army sets out people on watch. These people are all helping each other keep watch.
The army has 10,000 people in it, and 10% on watch.
They break them down into groups of 10. One person has a wisdom of 16 (+3), has Perception as a Class Skill (+3) and is level 3 (+3 ranks). They also have Skill Focus (Perception) because they are a scout for a living. Now, that's +12.
Let's assume a minimum roll for our stealthed Ranger of 30, and max of 50.
Each of our groups of 10 has 9 people doing aid another. All of these groups are chosen to be people who have no penalties to their perception check, because they don't want idiots on watch. So, they all have at least a +0 on peception. All 9 take 10 on their aid another checks (not in danger or distracted). This gives our main guy a +18 to his perception.
Each group makes a single perception check of +30 to notice the ranger. Each group has a 50/50 chance to notice the ranger. The first one that does, raises the alarm and everyone starts trying to catch him. If he doesn't run, then they'll flood the area he's in. If he runs, he can't stealth.
I have 100 scouting groups wandering the camp.
Ranger get's caught in no time.
Every single thing here is as rules legal as the 'I have a cloak of displacement I can stealth in broad daylight' contention. Honestly, more so, since the entire purpose of having watch groups is so that everyone is backing up everyone else on watching for enemies.
They cannot find him on a 20 if he rolls a 1. And he can be in the square right next to them because he has a cloak of minor displacement which enables him to always have concealment.They simply cannot find him.
I thought we'd finished this argument, but if you want to go round the robin again...
The army sets out people on watch. These people are all helping each other keep watch.
The army has 10,000 people in it, and 10% on watch.
They break them down into groups of 10. One person has a wisdom of 16 (+3), has Perception as a Class Skill (+3) and is level 3 (+3 ranks). They also have Skill Focus (Perception) because they are a scout for a living. Now, that's +12.
Let's assume a minimum roll for our stealthed Ranger of 30, and max of 50.
Each of our groups of 10 has 9 people doing aid another. All of these groups are chosen to be people who have no penalties to their perception check, because they don't want idiots on watch. So, they all have at least a +0 on peception. All 9 take 10 on their aid another checks (not in danger or distracted). This gives our main guy a +18 to his perception.
Each group makes a single perception check of +30 to notice the ranger. Each group has a 50/50 chance to notice the ranger. The first one that does, raises the alarm and everyone starts trying to catch him. If he doesn't run, then they'll flood the area he's in. If he runs, he can't stealth.
I have 100 scouting groups wandering the camp.
Ranger get's caught in no time.
Every single thing here is as rules legal as the 'I have a cloak of displacement I can stealth in broad daylight' contention. Honestly, more so, since the entire purpose of having watch groups is so that everyone is backing up everyone else on watching for enemies.
18 starting dex, +2 level, +4 item = 24 dex
ClasskillSkill Focus
10 ranks
Trait
10 ranks +3 classkill +1 trait +6 skillfocus +4 stealthy feat +7 dex +10 item +4 size +4 favoured terrain= +49
(You can't take 10 on a skill check to aid another.)
So in average your guy will have 5 guys giving him on his perception check. that gives him a +22.
So lets squeeze that last little +2 out of something, shall we?
He could take eldritch bloodline and get a familiar. Now we could get an improved familiar and have an imp. He is immobile in your backpack invisible so he has +51 to stealth and can assist you for a +2.
So we end with an +51 on stealth. So even if all of your guys would help your watcher and the ranger rolls a 1 it is impossible to find him. But that familiar thingy is not really too practical ;)
Yet lets look what we can do with snipe.
-20 on stealth is still a +29. So if we place ourselves at 350 feet (-4 to hit or -2 to hit with far shot) we get a nice +35 on stealth. Now we have +64 on stealth ( for sniping) and can kill one of his mooks in average per round downing his perception check and just killing them for good. And you can do that all day long! YAAAAAAAY.
Ok, so,
The answer is to have your guy stand out at 350 feet to snipe. Which is far different than ghosting through the camp slitting the throats of people while they look at him, as was originally posited. :) So, you've changed the goalposts again. It'll take him a long time to snipe 10,000 from 350 feet.
That's not even considering that they'll send out their own sneaky guys to go slit his throat. Now, he can be very stealthy, but they can send out 4 groups of 25 each, all aiding another to find him, and he can't kill 100 before the group is on him. Then they slaughter him.
So again, we've proven that you can't kill 10,000 people with one level 10 ranger. Yay!
I have to say that this is one of the most absurd threads about gaming I've ever read, and I really wonder if some of you actually have any fun when you game. This has "SERIOUS BUSINESS" written all over it, which is pretty silly for a fantasy roleplaying game.
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Honestly, I think it's a ridiculous thread too. I'm just having fun pointing out all the flaws in the ideas that a single level 10 can slaughter 10,000 people because they are uber god. :)
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They cannot find him on a 20 if he rolls a 1. And he can be in the square right next to them because he has a cloak of minor displacement which enables him to always have concealment.They simply cannot find him.
I thought we'd finished this argument, but if you want to go round the robin again...
The army sets out people on watch. These people are all helping each other keep watch.
The army has 10,000 people in it, and 10% on watch.
They break them down into groups of 10. One person has a wisdom of 16 (+3), has Perception as a Class Skill (+3) and is level 3 (+3 ranks). They also have Skill Focus (Perception) because they are a scout for a living. Now, that's +12.
Let's assume a minimum roll for our stealthed Ranger of 30, and max of 50.
Each of our groups of 10 has 9 people doing aid another. All of these groups are chosen to be people who have no penalties to their perception check, because they don't want idiots on watch. So, they all have at least a +0 on peception. All 9 take 10 on their aid another checks (not in danger or distracted). This gives our main guy a +18 to his perception.
Each group makes a single perception check of +30 to notice the ranger. Each group has a 50/50 chance to notice the ranger. The first one that does, raises the alarm and everyone starts trying to catch him. If he doesn't run, then they'll flood the area he's in. If he runs, he can't stealth.
I have 100 scouting groups wandering the camp.
Ranger get's caught in no time.
Every single thing here is as rules legal as the 'I have a cloak of displacement I can stealth in broad daylight' contention. Honestly, more so, since the entire purpose of having watch groups is so that everyone is backing up everyone else on watching for enemies.
Your plan sounds good the bolded section is the only weakness.
ou can help someone achieve success on a skill check by making the same kind of skill check in a cooperative effort. If you roll a 10 or higher on your check, the character you're helping gets a +2 bonus on his or her check. (You can't take 10 on a skill check to aid another.) In many cases, a character's help won't be beneficial, or only a limited number of characters can help at once.
Also you should take into account distance. Your numbers are based upon the ranger being right next to them. Every 10 ft is +1.
I don't really care about the argument but I have OCD about the rules. Time to read the rules three times.
Ok, so,
The answer is to have your guy stand out at 350 feet to snipe. Which is far different than ghosting through the camp slitting the throats of people while they look at him, as was originally posited. :) So, you've changed the goalposts again. It'll take him a long time to snipe 10,000 from 350 feet.That's not even considering that they'll send out their own sneaky guys to go slit his throat. Now, he can be very stealthy, but they can send out 4 groups of 25 each, all aiding another to find him, and he can't kill 100 before the group is on him. Then they slaughter him.
So again, we've proven that you can't kill 10,000 people with one level 10 ranger. Yay!
1. Lets just get 9.999 people to aid one! Thats a whooping skill check!
2. So how they gonna do that? I position myself about 350 feet from the camp which will be about 2000 feet in diameter? Even larger I guess.Now they have 4 groups of people searching for you who all spend their move actions for their perception rolls (aid another). To find him (14 succeeding in aid another ending up with +40 so a max of 60 and if all should succeed at 80) you have to be within 300 foot of him to even have a chance to spot him.
I dunno if you ever look at how large the area would be they'd have to search but thats pretty large and they will move really slow (perception to see someone actively is a move action and thus you cannot move far this round). So he can still safely snipe them from 350ft while on average them having no chance spotting him even if he rolls really bad and they roll a 20. And even if they spot him... what then? He is still 350ft from them and most likely faster than them. In extreme situations he could even take a wand of invisibility and fire it up to flee if spotted. Or he just uses a run action and rehides at that now bigger distance and until the enemy has moved up he can move into a random direction and they won't be so lucky to have 24 people pass their check twice in a row. And even if he can fire up an Invisibility he has...
3. Read above... it is questionable if you can aid another with perception. And then with 24 guys :D
Your plan sounds good the bolded section is the only weakness.
From the PRD wrote:ou can help someone achieve success on a skill check by making the same kind of skill check in a cooperative effort. If you roll a 10 or higher on your check, the character you're helping gets a +2 bonus on his or her check. (You can't take 10 on a skill check to aid another.) In many cases, a character's help won't be beneficial, or only a limited number of characters can help at once.
Also you should take into account distance. Your numbers are based upon the ranger being right next to them. Every 10 ft is +1.
I don't really care about the argument but I have OCD about the rules. Time to read the rules three times.
We're now into GM discretion though. How many people help with searching for a sniper? Or watching for intruders? Is it easier to sneak up on 10 people who are watching or 100 or 1000?
We're arguing with someone who thinks they can kill 10,000 people and never be seen doing it. I'd say that it's reasonable to say that 10 people all on patrol do a much better job than 1. As to the distance, I'm leaving that out because I had 100 groups wandering around, eventually he's going to be less than 100 feet from one and they'll roll high when he rolls low.
So how they gonna do that? I position myself about 350 feet from the camp which will be about 2000 feet in diameter? Even larger I guess.
Now they have 4 groups of people searching for you who all spend their move actions for their perception rolls (aid another). To find him (14 succeeding in aid another ending up with +40 so a max of 60 and if all should succeed at 80) you have to be within 300 foot of him to even have a chance to spot him.
His general position is spotted immediately. Not by seeing him, but by looking at where the first guy with an arrow was when he got hit. If the guy hit is on the direct north end of the camp, the ranger can't be to the east, or west, or south of the camp. Not with 10,000 people plus equipment in it.
So, now we've narrowed it down to all spots within 350 feet of the guy taken down. Our groups get together behind cover, then charge out, moving and searching (standard + move). When your invisible ranger is running away, he's only got a 15 to be noticed, per the invisibility/stealth combination rules. You can't stealth while running. So if he's moving slowly, he can continue to stealth, but only get's a +15 from the invisibility. So we can get our people there within a minute, and everyone will be under cover after the first round or two. So you can maybe get 5 or 6 guys.
All of which is beside the point, since your guy did not succeed at killing 10,000 people. All he was was a nuisance sniper.
Since I have said, repeatedly, that a level 10 can be a big nuisance to a 10,000 man army... I repeat, YAY!
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In order for a level 10 character to be anything more than a massive thorn in the side of the army, that level 10 character would need a great deal more information about the exact composition of the army than one could be reasonably capable of getting.
Additionally, the entire army would have to be comprised of low level characters.
And probably stupid.
So how they gonna do that? I position myself about 350 feet from the camp which will be about 2000 feet in diameter? Even larger I guess.
Now they have 4 groups of people searching for you who all spend their move actions for their perception rolls (aid another). To find him (14 succeeding in aid another ending up with +40 so a max of 60 and if all should succeed at 80) you have to be within 300 foot of him to even have a chance to spot him.His general position is spotted immediately. Not by seeing him, but by looking at where the first guy with an arrow was when he got hit. If the guy hit is on the direct north end of the camp, the ranger can't be to the east, or west, or south of the camp. Not with 10,000 people plus equipment in it.
So, now we've narrowed it down to all spots within 350 feet of the guy taken down. Our groups get together behind cover, then charge out, moving and searching (standard + move). When your invisible ranger is running away, he's only got a 15 to be noticed, per the invisibility/stealth combination rules. You can't stealth while running. So if he's moving slowly, he can continue to stealth, but only get's a +15 from the invisibility. So we can get our people there within a minute, and everyone will be under cover after the first round or two. So you can maybe get 5 or 6 guys.
All of which is beside the point, since your guy did not succeed at killing 10,000 people. All he was was a nuisance sniper.
Since I have said, repeatedly, that a level 10 can be a big nuisance to a 10,000 man army... I repeat, YAY!
If someone gets shot they can pin down his position into a 350ft circle. So which direction are they going to charge? Straight out of the camp? To the left? To the right?
Each of your spotter groups can move 30ft per round while searching while our Ranger covers 80ft in that time. So he will increase the distance to them every round they try to search. And if they are unlucky they will end up losing a few more persons up to the whole group. Having 24 (one is dead) low level dudes running out of cover and facing a character that can easily kill 3 of them per round while they most probably will not be able to hit him at all is not good mojo.
And since the camp is really big and we have only 4 groups active now they will be 2350 ft, and two times 1680ft away (assuming he is out in a straight line). Our Ranger can easily make 80ft per round and even if the other groups come rushing in opening up the whole camp for secondary attackers they will need at least 14 rounds to get where they could spot him. And in 14 rounds our dear Ranger could be ANYWHERE.
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Every time he moves further away he's not killing the 10,000 ergo he lost the "I can kill 10,000 people in an army with one guy" argument.
Want to try a caster next? Just skip it honestly since we've already covered this topic in its own thread.
And again AlienFreak, he's not slaughtering 10,000 people, he's just scutting around the edges, picking off someone here and there. If he's stopping to shoot, he's going to get spotted faster. Once they spot where he is once, they can run towards him. And if he is running 80 feet per round, he is not stealthing, and his invisibility gives him almost no defense (it's only +15 to spot him), and he's not stealthing while running. So it's a DC 15 to spot him while he runs invisible. They can make that without aiding another.
So again, he's spotted, and in a world of hurt.
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Your plan sounds good the bolded section is the only weakness.
From the PRD wrote:ou can help someone achieve success on a skill check by making the same kind of skill check in a cooperative effort. If you roll a 10 or higher on your check, the character you're helping gets a +2 bonus on his or her check. (You can't take 10 on a skill check to aid another.) In many cases, a character's help won't be beneficial, or only a limited number of characters can help at once.
Also you should take into account distance. Your numbers are based upon the ranger being right next to them. Every 10 ft is +1.
I don't really care about the argument but I have OCD about the rules. Time to read the rules three times.
We're now into GM discretion though. How many people help with searching for a sniper? Or watching for intruders? Is it easier to sneak up on 10 people who are watching or 100 or 1000?
We're arguing with someone who thinks they can kill 10,000 people and never be seen doing it. I'd say that it's reasonable to say that 10 people all on patrol do a much better job than 1. As to the distance, I'm leaving that out because I had 100 groups wandering around, eventually he's going to be less than 100 feet from one and they'll roll high when he rolls low.
To be honest I don't know why he even went for Ranger. I think a 10th level conjurer wizard could do some serious damage. Greater invisibility, overland flight, summon monster for distractions & death, cloudkill, telekinesis. Fireball is fun. Will you be seen? Probably but then you try to fly away. Will you succeed......maybe. Not in one night certainly.
As to the ranger he is gonna have to be super efficient. 10 hours is 6000 rounds. Doing it by hand he can kill maybe 2000 in one night taking into account stealth movement, moving between tents, dodging patrols.
The archer ranger is gonna spend actions fishing arrows out of his bag of holding or portable hole. If he can one shot every guy in that army he is gonna need say 5000 arrows to rout them which is 750 pounds just in arrows. People with cover or concealment might defeat the archery. How is he gonna target people in tents or behind tents or walls or rocks? So he will have to move around the camp over time. I think he will be even less efficient than the guy doing it with knives but let us say he also gets 2000 shots a night. How many will he make? Range on a longbow is 100ft. At 350 he is at -6 for anyone at the edge of camp. People in the center of the large camp will be much much harder to hit (cover, concealment, range).
I feel like I am coming down on the army's side but a caster at 10th could be a serious problem and in certain scenarios that do not involve idiot armies could rout a 10,000 man army (Kill approximately half, make moving forward difficult)
This makes it a several day operation.
And again AlienFreak, he's not slaughtering 10,000 people, he's just scutting around the edges, picking off someone here and there. If he's stopping to shoot, he's going to get spotted faster. Once they spot where he is once, they can run towards him. And if he is running 80 feet per round, he is not stealthing, and his invisibility gives him almost no defense (it's only +15 to spot him), and he's not stealthing while running. So it's a DC 15 to spot him while he runs invisible. They can make that without aiding another.
So again, he's spotted, and in a world of hurt.
1. P.S. its nice to see that you give your NPCs a lot of metagaming info about the Ranger. Like how far he is away. How do they know which weapon exactly he used? How do they know which range increment he is in? He can be anywhere from 10ft to 1200ft away. Or even 2400ft away if he has a distance weapon. What is kinda lol. Because with far shot you have a solid -3 to hit on 1200ft distance (with a Distance weapon) while having about 10bab+7dex+4fav enemy+2enhancement-4distance = +19 to hit. Which is enough for a guaranteed hit (and kill that is with 1d10+2enhancement+4fav enemy).
Since you like it cheesy lets just go with 1200ft distance from now on :P
2. You can move your double land speed (40ft in that case) with a -5 to stealth? So why is he not stealthing?
3. Invisibility was only to cover up his retreat while he is stealthing. He has a +69 stealth check with Invisibility running and while he is moving 80ft that is +64. And he can move in any direction he likes when he sees the spotter team crawling near with their 30ft per round. So they will not find him.
4. You always assume they see him and then run towards him. HOW!?
He can snipe at the spotter groups easily as they move slowly and if he is within 1200ft distance one of them dies. Now hey know they have an enemy that is somewhere from 10ft to 2400ft in a circle around them. They can randomly run in one direction (that makes 120ft, lol) so he will be 1080ft away from him. Thats a +137 on his stealth after sniping. Assuming they by chance ran directly towards him. So he can safely continue this for 4 more rounds (again assuming they directly move towards him) by the fact that he ends up with a +89 on stealth at that point and should start moving away.
If the spotting team was stupid enough to chase him that far and already lost 5 persons and is now 5 rounds worth of movement out of the camp it means even if they retreat (or they'll die out there) they'll lose another 5 men. Or if he gives up his cover as they retreat and are 1000 ft out (a safe distance for him to be able to retreat) he can full attack and will most likely kill all of the group (probably not the 3rd level char) before they reach the camp again. And our other dudes that were running for 10 rounds now are now about 1600 ft from him. So they stand no chance of finding him.
:) Ok AlienFreak, I'm assuming you have a longbow with distance on it? 110 doubled to 220? Five range increments is... 1100 feet? Ok.
Build your ranger. Be specific. None of this "I pull X out of my butt in response to something I don't like". :) make sure he has enough supplies to kill 10,000 people with arrows. Make sure he can one-shot level 3 NPCs.
Please not that all this sillyness is just that, sillyness, as the 10,000 man army is not made up of level 1 to 3 people. The system shows that (See GMG). But let's play the stupid sillyness game as long as you want to.
P.S. means 'post-script', as in, written after previous writing. You don't start out a piece of writing with it. It's like starting your post with 'EDIT:'
Just saying.
LOL
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Hold on. Where is this army exactly? Hills, forests, plains, hills next to a desert. You make it sound like it is in a very large clearing next to a forested area. Every bit you move back from the edge of that forested area is gonna make it harder to shoot.
[/quote=PRD Environment]Trees: The most important terrain element in a forest is the trees, obviously. A creature standing in the same square as a tree gains partial cover, which grants a +2 bonus to Armor Class and a +1 bonus on Reflex saves. The presence of a tree doesn't otherwise affect a creature's fighting space, because it's assumed that the creature is using the tree to its advantage when it can. The trunk of a typical tree has AC 4, hardness 5, and 150 hp. A DC 15 Climb check is sufficient to climb a tree. Medium and dense forests have massive trees as well. These trees take up an entire square and provide cover to anyone behind them. They have AC 3, hardness 5, and 600 hp. Like their smaller counterparts, it takes a DC 15 Climb check to climb them.
The further back you get the more trees there will be.
If you are on a rise in a hilly area you get the same problem.
If you are on a plain then some parts of the camp provide cover for all the parts further in.
P.S. means 'post-script', as in, written after previous writing. You don't start out a piece of writing with it. It's like starting your post with 'EDIT:'
Just saying.
I was adding it to the post above. But then I thought it would be more wise to make a new post out of it but didn't remove the PS.
...
1. So now ALL OF YOUR ARMY are level 3 NPCs?
2. For that example I was using a heavy Crossbow. But it is not much difference with a composite longbow.3. Goblin 20pb level 10 (a fetchling would be good, too. Shadow Walk and his conceleament ability rock plus he is medium sized)
12(14) 22(24) 14 12 12 5
Fav Enemies: HUMIIIIIS
Fav Terrain: Uhm... what is this?
Traits: Stealth Trait & UMD Trait
Skills: UMD, Stealth, Perception, whatever
Feats: Sealthy, Skill Focus (Stealth), Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Precise Shot, Improved Precise Shot, Manyshot, Weapon Focus
Possessions
Weapon: Distance +1 Composite Longbow +2 (1d6+3) 8xxx gold
Wand of Invisibility (10 charges) 900gp
Cloak of ultra elvenkind & minor displacement 39000
Dex +2 & Str +2 Belt = 10000
LOADS OF ARROWS
Attack: 10BAB+7Dex+1Focus+1Enhancement+1size = +20 (+26 against MEATBAGS)
DMG: 1d6+3 (6.5 avg) 12.5 against HUMIIIIIS
@ KARKON:
Benefit: Your ranged attacks ignore the AC bonus granted to targets by anything less than total cover, and the miss chance granted to targets by anything less than total concealment. Total cover and total concealment provide their normal benefits against your ranged attacks.
It doesn't matter if you are in the middle of a forest.
It doesn't matter if they are in the center of their camp and you can barely see them.You see them they get not concealment and no cover.
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Benefit: Your ranged attacks ignore the AC bonus granted to targets by anything less than total cover, and the miss chance granted to targets by anything less than total concealment. Total cover and total concealment provide their normal benefits against your ranged attacks.
It doesn't matter if you are in the middle of a forest.
It doesn't matter if they are in the center of their camp and you can barely see them.You see them they get not concealment and no cover.
At a certain point in the forest they will have total cover or concealment. They guys behind the tree will have total cover with one tree probably. They will also have total concealment since you will not be able to see them.
Read the concealment and cover sections especially total cover and total concealment. If you are in the middle of the forest you will not be able to hit anyone more than a certain distance in the forest. Even in sparse forests 50% of squares have a typical tree. Once you get into denser forests it becomes much harder due to the massive trees.
That does not even get into cover and concealment from objects inside the camp. Wagons, tents, any fortifications, siege engines, terrain (hills for example).
They cannot find him on a 20 if he rolls a 1. And he can be in the square right next to them because he has a cloak of minor displacement which enables him to always have concealment....The ranger can do some serious damage to the army's morale and supply lines. There is no question. This is an extremely common tactic and used by nearly every army. Go do some research on Roger's Rangers. Make sure you are familiar with the tactics and capabilities. At no point is there a discussion on taking on the army head to head. There isn't even a discussion on sneaking in and taking them out from within. Note that the British army at the time was so predictable that you knew they would stop fighting at teatime.
If you want to know about defenses, simple traps are often enough. Remember that disabling a device still takes time. The more complex the more time. The longer you spend fiddling with something (or many somethings) the more likely you will be found.
It is also very unlikely that the ranger will take out even a 10th of the beasts for the army. Not only are these guarded and cared for, some are allowed to roam, like the dogs. If you want to see how attentive a trained dog can be, look at what a collie does with sheep. I have seen them do this with people too. They patrol and are on constant watch. Herd dogs do this. Different breeds of dogs would be used for different purposes.
The horses would be very hard to take out. Imagine the horses being treated like a modern day motorpool. This is how the army would travel as well as fight. Just like a modern army would protect their vehicles, so would an ancient or fantasy army.
I won't go into specifics bcause they aren't really necessary. It is so rare for a single person to take on an army that we reward that with a Medal of Honor, often postumously. Go read up on Audy Murphy. He survived, but look at what he had to deal with. He was on the defense and knew what he had to work with. An infiltrator doesn't have that knowledge.
Your cloak doesn't do anything to help you with animals that can smell. Your cloak doesn't do anything with anyone who can hear. Your cloak really shouldn't help you be able to stealth either. I know how you are interpeting it but it's not invisibility.
Just a heads up, an army consists of more than level 1 characters of any type. There are a good number of higher level ones as well, many of which probably use...wait for it...magic! Yes! They can use other means to find you.
The only way that a 10th level character can single handedly take on an army mano a mano is through GM fiat. Other means, like crippling their supply lines or affecting morale, are well within the realm of what a 10th level character can do.