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To me sword and Shield is only worth it if going TWF with it, and even then it's debatable.
So, definitely 2h. If going with LoH based Feats I would look at getting the one that heals an extra 1D6 if no condition is being removed
Also, I would drop the Int to 7. That gives 2 more points to put Con to 12. More importantly you get no penalty dropping to 7, so being at 8 is losing 2 points for nothing.
Go two handed weapon, it's easier that way.
If you really want to go the sword and shield route tell us so, so we can help you do that better.
Greatsword. I can't stress enough how good it is for two reasons:
1) More damage
2) If you get too hard to hit, stuff starts ignoring you and you get less use out of your swift action healing.
I'm currently playing a two-hander Paladin and having lots of fun with it. I do carry a longsword and shield for survivability purposes, but haven't had to use it yet. I'm playing Council of Thieves and have no intention of taking the mount Divine Bond, so I can't speak to that.
I played a sword and board paladin and its pretty much required to go TWF to make it compete with other fighting styles. The smite damage gets to be a bit absurd if you are going past level 10, otherwise just stick with the greatsword.
I play a sword & board pally for quite a time now. Without TWF. I like my AC. If my enemies ignore me, I usually kill them.
On the other hand we fight against lots of evil stuff.
Against non-evil, airborne combatants my paladin would be useless, if he had not taken leadership - his cleric cohort makes him fly or airwalk if the need arises.
Alas, I am quite sure a Paladin fighting with a two-handed weapon will be superior in general.
From a roleplaying perspective I don't like paladin archers, but they will be kings of damage-dealing (compared to paladins using other fighting styles).
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I recommend two hander over the sword and shield. Starting sword and shield is a good way to go.
I don't -- and make charisma your highest stat because you quintuple-dip that stat for social skills, channels, saving-throws, and attack bonus and armor-class while smiting.
First rule of being a paladin: the absolute worst of evil everything is always gunning for you first, particularly at high-level when their ability to dish out triple-digit damage to you is not out of the question, and of the sort that eats through your lay-ons like they weren't even there.
-- It's in those moments that the S&B with adamantine shield grimly soldiers onward while the low-AC two-hander is dead on the floor split in two next to the pieces of his sundered buckler.
(Yeah: they don't tell you about that in the DPR seminars, do they?)
Higher up, your level bonus to damage while smiting becomes a significant factor, and that bonus damage is the same regardless of weapon type.
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First off > Int should be 7, not 8. There's no difference between a 7 and an 8, if we are looking to min-max.
Secondly, I'd personally go:
Str: 18
Int: 7
Wis: 10
Dex: 12
Con: 12
Chr: 16
You don't want will save to be totally lost; and the gain you get from +1 to hit / damage is vastly outweighed by the -3 AC and -1 Will save.
Third, two hands. Damage is better than defense in most cases, and efficiency of power attack moreso. A two handed sword does 2d6+6 for this guy; longsword would do d8+4. That's 13 average vs 8.5; over 50% better, and with power attack it scales even more.
Mounted pallies are quite good; but you have to have a solid int to get those going (skill points needed). Also, they are pretty feat-starved, unless you fight beside your mount (which the horse is actually a good combatant; this isn't as silly as it seems, it's generally better than the weapon bond).
Even if you choose to go 2H...take a 1H and shield with you. Not sure why people just ignore the chances they may need that extra 2-5 AC to survive an encounter...
I agree with this mentality. I want to have the extra AC in the event that we are going up against a lot of opponents or ones that we know hit hard. Yeah, the extra damage is nice for those fights, but survivability is important as well.
I haven't used my sword and shield yet, but I've been tempted to.
I'm planning a paladin of Shelyn who uses a Fauchard with reach and a high crit range. I actually recommend starting with a 16 Str and a higher Cha if you can swing it. Especially if you have a pal in your group who will cast Enlarge Person on you. It bumps you up to the sweet spot for Two Handedness and doubles your reach. Also the first magical item you will get (besides a +1 long sword) will probably be a +2 Str Belt, and the extra Charisma can help you out quite a bit.
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There's a few things to consider here...
1. Smite Evil doesn't care what weapon you're using, or how you're using it - the damage bonus is the same in any case. So, to get the most out of your Smite Evil damage bonus, you need to hit more often, rather than harder. That supports a TWF (sword and shield bash) build, but such builds are both Feat-intensive, and add Dexterity to the Paladin's already pretty-MAD requirements.
2. You don't need to use a two-handed weapon to get the two-hander 50% boost to Strength and Power Attack damage bonuses - you can two-hand a one-handed melee weapon and get the same bonuses. That helps if you want to chop and change between one- and two-handing (and only want to be enchanting one primary weapon as you level up). Equiping and slinging a shield is free with a regular Move action, so you can get a lot of milage out of switching tactics as the situation defines.
3. The primary bonus of a dedicated two-handed weapon is the bigger base damage dice. This helps most if you're going to regularly be under effects which boost the relative size of the weapon (enlarge person or lead blades for example), otherwise the average 2.5 extra damage a greatsword is scoring over a longsword (both being used two-handed) starts to pale a little when your damage bonuses start to rise.
Ultimately you'll be getting better damage out of a dedicated TWF sword-n-board build... but it's Feat intensive, and the Paladin has a lot of other nice things to be looking at when it comes to Feats these days.
Going greatsword will, eventually, mean you're abandoning the idea of using a shield at all. Once you're getting magic gear, you're unlikely to be enchanting two swords and a shield 'just in case'. However if doing the most damage without blowing a huge amount of Feats in the process is your bag, then greatsword is the way to go.
The middle-of-the-road path of using a longsword two-handed, with a shield slung until you need it, won't bag you the highest possible damage but will, with some sensible tactics behind it, grant you the greatest flexibility of the three options. A +5 heavy shield grants you a hefty +7 AC, even before you start to figure in Feats, or any special powers your shield might have, so it's definitely worth taking the time to think about what you may ultimately be giving up before abandoning the idea completely.
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12th-level comparison:
A) STR18/CHA16 2hPA w/falchion & no shield: 2d4+6+12 damage from only strength, weapon dice and Power Attack two-handed.
B) STR16/CHA18 1hSB Combat Expertise : d6+2 scimitar base, -1 attack versus STR18 build.
...looks stupid, right? I mean, who's dumb enough to forfeit 15.5dmg and eat -1 attack doing this? Well, for starters, assuming a +4 shield at 12th, AC is +8 with build B.
Ah, but you can eliminate the -1 attack disparity with the Threatening Defender trait.
Build B is much more likely to survive a trade full-attacks toe-to-toe battle of attrition versus a multi-attack BBEM?
-- 2hPA has its place...and its the barbarian with the polearm who's standing behind the turtle-tank.
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Sir Jeffrey, v2 (a PFS-legal character; feel free to run with it):
...based off the highly efficient 15,14,12,12,12,12 20pt array, Sir Jeffrey has +10 in total stat bonuses at 4th; and isn't quite as addlepated as everyone thinks he is. He's older and grayer and doesn't hit as hard as a younger man, but he has a wealth of experience and knows what to do in any given tactical situation, be it charge, fight-defensively, run around and heal, suss out a liar, cast a spell, coax the enemy's magical equipment into working for him, or try to talk some sense into the opponent before steel is even drawn.
STR+12
DEX:12
CON:12
INT:14
WIS:12
CHA+17 (all bumps)
Equipment: +3 dwarven plate, +3 mithral buckler, +3/Dueling fauchard, locking gauntlets, Winged Boots, Belt of Physical Perfection +2, Headband of mental superiority +2
Build: paladin12
Traits: Threatening Defender, Dangerously Curious
Feats:
01 Exotic Weapon Proficiency:Fauchard, Combat Expertise
03 Improved Trip
05 Combat Reflexes (wears Belt of Incredible Dexterity +2)
07 Stand Still
09 Critical Focus
11 Improved Reposition
Exploits: CMB +9 Disarm, +11 Trip, +11 Reposition, and same numbers to CMD defense versus those kinds of enemy attacks, due to Dueling property.
Go Sword and Board.
Your ideal weapon is a Sun Sword. d10 dmg, usable in one hand or two, and you don't need to blow an EWP on it. Ask your DM if you can build one as you level along, and get the bastard sword = short sword as your first boost to it. The dmg bonus vs Evil should be your second. Until that point, you probably want to use a standard long sword.
A Sword and Board Fighter is FLEXIBLE. It's his defining trait.
If it's a big opponent with wuss AC, you can Two hand and Power attack with your weapon.
If it's a boss creature with massive to hit, you can sword and board and turtle to live while your Greatsword friend becomes a smear.
If you think you can hit, you can potentially TWF with Smite damage giving you massive output. Even if you only blow one or two feats on TWF, the additional attacks WILL hit when you smite, and WILL do tons of damage.
In short, Sword and Board can deliver what all other melee fighting styles do, if you just pick a weapon that you can wield with two hands. It can turtle for high AC, and it can use TWF to maximize the killing power of your smites.
So go SAB, and THW or TWF whenever you like...just because you can.
===Aelryinth
Go Sword and Board.
...In short, Sword and Board can deliver what all other melee fighting styles do, if you just pick a weapon that you can wield with two hands. It can turtle for high AC, and it can use TWF to maximize the killing power of your smites.
So go SAB, and THW or TWF whenever you like...just because you can.
===Aelryinth
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Well, I play a 2h Pally in PFS and play a TWF sword and board Pally in an AP. I personally prefer the 2h Pally becasue of less stat spread and the fact I hit far more often when not smiting (PA and TWF with 16 Str is a pain)
My issue with the S&B Paladin is simply the fact that 'turtling up' seems to be a bogus premise - against the big bad guys, with shield, armour and +4 AC from smite I am yet to actually not get hit by the big bads - when they are regularly hitting 35+ AC I need to be a full time dedictated tank with feats boosting my AC to really stand a chance of being missed.
Ultimately, when it matters my AC offers little - even less when monsters have Touch attacks.
It's true that smite doesn't care what weapon you use, but being 1h essentially causes smite to do nothing more than make up for the fact ou are a 1h fighter style.
At lvl 10, purely based on 18 Str and PA:
Non smith with 2h Falchion (high crit rate):
2d4+6+9= av. 20 dmg
1h Scimitar (high crit rate)
1d6+4+6=av. 13.5 dmg
So, when you add smite to the 1h you are now doing 1d6 damage more than a non smiting 2h Paladin - for the 'ultimate' Pally ability that is underwhelming. The gap in damage increases when you take into account crits which assuming you have the feat means a 25% chance of doing, that makes it 40 dmg 2h vs 27 dmg 1h when non smiting.
When you add weapon modifiers it likely gets worse as the S&B has been spending money to enhance both items.
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Truthfully I prefer Oath of Vengence Cha builds long-term; since they can strictly make up.
Pallies don't have the feats to pull off the TWF shield bash sword-and-board style; especially as they go up.
Pallies don't tank with their AC; they tank with lay on hands. They have more virtual hp than any other class.
But to keep the swift action lay on hands online, you either need to wear a light shield(-1 AC gain) or a two-handed weapon.
Two-handed weapon is vastly superior at low levels, where the damage comparison of d8+4 vs 2d6+6 matters most.
At higher levels you'll want the Cha build, not only because you smite more often but also because saves matter more Than the minor difference in to hit / damage. Despite that, the extra damage generally matters more than the extra to hit.
Most importantly, unless you weapon focus, you can switch back and forth. Carry both. I'd apply the magic towards the two-handed weapon and your armor though.
If you do want a shield, I'd go the trip/horsechopper route. Yes it makes int 13 required, but it's a solid tank build... trip keeps them from getting past you. And the reach weapon helps as well.
Use a longsword and go two handed when you need to go two handed. Pop the shield on when you don't. No real damage difference.
Str vs Cha is a choice all paladins make.
TWF should only get one or two feats from a paladin. It's not worth the massive investment if it's only useful while smiting. But an extra attack or two while smiting is a LOT of extra damage being heaped upon an enemy.
A quick draw shield has to be a light shield as well...but note you can always wear gloves of storing to get around this problem.
At higher levels the Sun Sword is the best offensive a paladin can get, especially against undead. Double damage against undead? That demilich is dead in one round when you start heaping +60 dmg attacks on him.
===Aelryinth
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For the best of both styles, use a buckler and a scimitar.
* A scimitar is not a light weapon -- so you get all the 2hPA(15-20)crit gravy you want if you hold it in two hands. -1.5 damage vs falchion = big whoop. -1 attack if you currently have a buckler on your other arm (if you're Powering Attacking already, you're willing to eat another -1).
* Shoot your AC into orbit with Combat Expertise + buckler when you need to. (Shield of Swings with a two-hander is nice, but you lose it if disarmed, etc; it's also not an anchor-feat for stuff like Improved Trip, and while nice at low-level, it doesn't scale high-level past 12th.)
* No need for Quick Draw shields (or that feat) or Gloves of Storing. (You can, in fact, have a buckler, a cestus and a weapon all on or held by the same limb! -- You could be a one-armed paladin who's capable of piercing, bludgeoning and slashing without swapping equipment.)
* Hand free for UMD, throwing stuff, etc.
At higher levels the Sun Sword is the best offensive a paladin can get
A paladin's deadliest opponents at higher levels aren't things he can already kill easily -- it's uber DR lawful-neutral giants that'll bugger him every time.
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Well, the optimizers may laugh, but I'd go with the following on a 20-point buy:
Str 14 (5 points)
Dex 12 (2 points)
Con 12 (2 points)
Int 12 (2 points)
Wis 12 (2 points)
Cha 14 (5 points)
Then put my +2 stat bonus (human) into Str. Final ability scores of Str 16, Dex 12, Con 12, Int 12, Wis 12, and Cha 14. He's got no weaknesses across the board and he is only 1-point behind your 18 strength character--and has more skills and more hit points.
As you level up, put 2 points in Str and 3 points in Cha, eventually hitting 18 Str and 17 Cha. Now that's a paladin.
As for the sword & board vs. two-hander; I am a traditionalist. Sword & board. You can't wield that two-handed great sword while mounted, but you can wield a sword and shield, or a lance and shield. Your AC is higher and you still do enough damage to make evil outsiders, dragons, or undead think twice about ignoring you.
In fact, I would suggest eventually acquiring four magic weapons: a light weapon (dagger, kukri, hand axe, etc.) for emergencies, a one-handed slashing weapon (long sword, bastard sword, scimitar, etc.) as your primary, a one-handed bludgeoning weapon (flail, heavy mace, etc.) for use against undead, and a lance for use when mounted.
But then, I think flavor counts as much as mechanics in a game. Go figure.
Master Arminas
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Well, the optimizers may laugh, but I'd go with the following on a 20-point buy:
Str 14 (5 points)
Dex 12 (2 points)
Con 12 (2 points)
Int 12 (2 points)
Wis 12 (2 points)
Cha 14 (5 points)
So long as 18pt-buy is the new 20pt-buy! ;-)
Dump stats: take one as a paladin. What to pick? WISDOM -- no contest. -- The second you have Divine Grace (which will effin' rock if you pump CHA rather than STR), it's no longer needed for anything whatsoever except bonus to Perception (which you're probably not even putting ranks in anyway unless you're multiclassed or a high-INT build).
Oops. I meant to put Charisma to a 15 (7 points), but didn't change it! And I compounded the mistake, he should wind up with Str 18 and Cha 18! Thanks, Mike.
I need an editor. Lol
Master Arminas
You folks optimizing every character, min/maxing to cover EVERY potential threat... it always makes me laugh. As a 20+ year vet behind the screens I can tell you without a doubt that it depends more on your GM than any of the numbers you're tossing about. Consider the following:
You've got your amped up 4th level PA w/2HW, maxed Str, a Str belt, the party's mage has Enlarged him and you kick in the door... only to find a dozen fire mephits, hovering above a sea of lava, all armed with wands of Scorching Ray or some such.
You tank up, 4th lev PA with an AC topping out at 23 before magic comes into the picture and the ability to hold the line against anything... and before you is a single beautiful lady that manages a round of surprise, and a decent mind-control effect...
My point is there is a foil for every min/maxed character out there. It doesn't matter how well you balance, or max out, or otherwise arm your character for every eventuality; there is a GM out there who will inevitably find a way to beat it.
But then, it doesn't have to be that way. You may have a GM who respects your choices. For every cynical monster with cheater D20's in their hand there's a generous soul who plays to your strengths, even though even the Monk in the party sqeals with laughter over your S&B choices.
An example would be in one of the first games in my current homebrew campaign. The party's all first level, and filled with a Barbarian, Bard, Rogue and S&B PA. EVERYONE else has maxed their character out best they can, even the Bard, and the final chamber sees a bunch of kids about to be dropped into a pit of hungry 1HP minion ghouls. Defending the pit are some tricked out black dragon type kobolds with maxed Str, Imp Bull Rush and horns like their "patron" to butt with.
Combat proceeds like normal, PA moving slowly toward the pit while the Barbarian bounds right to the edge like Rudolph and begins mincing standard kobolds. Bard inspires and also attempts to disrupt the ritual. Rogue finds cover in the cave, snipes w/crossbow, finds cover, etc. Getting back to the PA he trudges right for the pit, shield up, and takes a nasty smash knocking him down and in...into the midst of the 8 slavering ghouls and he's taken some damage. Even the rest of the party is now whining that "we're going to have to save HIM now TOO!"
Enter part minions w/bad melee bonuses, part GM's Grace for a moment of pure cinema. PA rolls to his feet, turns with his back to the wall of the pit and glares at the ghouls. "Bring it!" he shouts at 3HP and holds his shield proudly...not a SINGLE one hit him. The rest of the party up top is taking out all the guards sure, but no one is doing anything for the poor lads bound together...their bonds about to break...the PA moves defensively into position and holds back the mob of ghouls while succeeding at CATCHING the net full of kids!
Oh sure, any of the MAXED party could've done it, and sure I could've instead turned the spotlight on them but I played to the PA's STRENGTHS, not his weaknesses. Said PA has talked a circle of treants into not slaying every member of the party, held the line against an angry chimeric worg's breath weapon so the rest of the char's could get in position and released a Forlarren with the negotiated aid of a Deva from a life of torment which also purified her soul. Oh, he still gets picked on as the weakest link but whatever.
PLAY THE CHARACTER YOU WANT, not the one that does the most damage. If your GM's a wanker, they will find a way to destroy you no matter WHAT your stats. If your GM isn't a DB however, they'll find ways to put your strengths out in front from time to time, regardless what those might be.
Game On!
I played a Paladin in a RotRL campaign. Sword and Board, focusing on Charisma over Strength. I basically took out Karzoug by myself. After the campaign was over, I did the math, I was about 20-30k over WBL (less than 10% off target).
In another game, I watched a 10th level paladin survive 9 rounds alone against a Balor. He wasn't even close to winning and the Balor made a couple of poor moves (like taking the time to dispel buffs once), but it was still an impressive 9 rounds.
Both builds focused on high saves, high AC and lots of HP. Those are the 3 specialties of Paladins and it makes you like a slow moving freight train, everyone sees it coming, but there's nothing you can do but ask it politely to stop.
To be honest if i was going 2her it would have to be a reach weapon, otherwise the extra 2.5 damage per hit i would get from going greatsword over just using a longsword in both hands is pretty worthless compared to the option to up my ac by a chunk.
The base dice damage doesn't really matter, its all about utility, reach weapons or s+b/1h'r 2h'd gives you the options. I'd probably take a reach weapon, a 1h and a shield as well as a bow.