Since most Dino's have only one attack, this is a problem with the Saurian archtype, not wildshapers in general. The Deinonychus has 5 attacks, so that may be what you need.
On the other hand, that one attack could hurt a lot harder with the Vital Strike feat tree.
First of all the Deinonychus has 4 attacks not 5, your best choice is the allosaurus from bestiary 2, also to be relative at higher levels the UC planar wild shape feat is your friend.
My apologies, I did not look at the stats before posting.
I second the idea of Planar Wildshape.
I tried a Saurian Shaman for a level 10 one-off/pvp game we ran a while ago. I focused on an Allosaurus using the Improved Grapple line to pounce on people, lock them down and rip them apart, with a T-Rex companion helping out.
I found him to be great, though he was locked down by a confusion spell after taking out one of the opposition in the first round (where a dodgey ruling didn't even let him get pounce).
He was a powerful character, and a hell of a lot of fun to play.
So what kinda feat progression should I be looking at? I was thinking something along these lines.
1st-Toughness
3rd-Power Attack
5th-Natural Spell
7th-Planar Wildshape
9th-Cleave
9th-Vital Strike*
11th-Improved Unarmed Strike
13th-Improved Grapple
13th-Improved Overrun*
15th-Improved Vital Strike
17th-Greater Grapple
17th-Nimble Moves*
19th-Greater Overrun*Bonus Feats via Archtype
Any suggestions?
I'd go with:
1st Improved Unarmed Strike3rd Power Attack
5th Natural Spell
7th Planar Wild Shape
9th Quick Wild Shape (from 12th level on, no penalties for turning int0 an animal; as a swift action, until then it is a bit weak)
11th Improved Grapple
13th Greater Grapple
15th+ whatever you want
I'm noty so much a fan of cleaving or vital striking as a druid. You can turn into a huge animal with 5 attacks all at full and a pounce, you should be full attacking every round.
4 attacks, get amulet of might fists +0 with as many elemental 1d6's as you can afford, then Greater magic fang all of your attacks.
You're playing a Paizo AP with 25 point buy.... aka EZ mode vs. normal CR opposition.
So it doesn't matter if this is underpowered or something, you should still be doing just fine.
you are also a full caster as it happens.
I don't really get your complaint anyways...
'most of them only have one attack'... yeah, except for the ones that have a bunch of attacks.
hint: use THOSE ONES if you like lots of attacks. some of these forms even have Pounce.
if you use Ultimate Combat there are even more options, though they aren't necessary to play the game A-OK.
It's not just you. Compared to high level melees, high level druids suck.
I made two level 18 nymph druids. Extremely high stats. Due to their poor spell selection, they were housed by a high level party. Druids may be cool with the pet, spells, and wild shaping up to lvl 12 or so. I don't know. But high level druids are pretty weak.
If you're not using spells much, you could multi-class. As soon as you have adequate wild-shaping abilities (which stop improving significantly fairly early on), take levels in Monk (AC bonuses), Barbarian (rage) or Ranger (animal companion). Pick your alignment with this in mind and, if you're not going to keep improving your animal companion, take a domain instead.
It's not just you. Compared to high level melees, high level druids suck.
I made two level 18 nymph druids. Extremely high stats. Due to their poor spell selection, they were housed by a high level party. Druids may be cool with the pet, spells, and wild shaping up to lvl 12 or so. I don't know. But high level druids are pretty weak.
That is utter nonsense, druids are anything but weak, high level or otherwise. You can say they are not the most powerful melee, not the most powerful casters or the best skill monkeys, but they are pretty damn able to do it all fairly well. Just do not expect to use wildshape without any real investment of feats and items and keep up with a warrior.
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For a druid attack boni can be hard to come by compared to a real frontline class, but yeah.
Is there any other means of gaining a higher to-hit besides(from the top of my head) higher stats, enhancement boni to stats, huge size and greater magic fang? Doing frontline duty at high levels sort of assumes using Power Attack and that -4 can really eat at a 3/4 bab class's attack routine. Rage domain+Reckless Abandon is an option, but it's not open to every druid...
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That is utter nonsense, druids are anything but weak, high level or otherwise. You can say they are not the most powerful melee, not the most powerful casters or the best skill monkeys, but they are pretty damn able to do it all fairly well. Just do not expect to use wildshape without any real investment of feats and items and keep up with a warrior.It's not just you. Compared to high level melees, high level druids suck.
I made two level 18 nymph druids. Extremely high stats. Due to their poor spell selection, they were housed by a high level party. Druids may be cool with the pet, spells, and wild shaping up to lvl 12 or so. I don't know. But high level druids are pretty weak.
Is the fact that Druids have pets and can cast up to lv 9 spells, the reason for them being weaker then pure Melee classes in terms of melee damage potential and tanking?
Here is my suggestion:
1st Toughness
3rd Power Attack
5th Natural Spell
7th Planar Wild Shape
9th Vital Strike*
9th Heavy Armor Prof. OR Quick Wild Shape*
11th Heavy Armor Prof. OR Quick Wild Shape
13th Improved Unarmed Strike
13th Improved Overrun*
15th Dragon Style
*(For a saurian shaman from 10+ level you could turn into an allosaurus as a swift action)
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All I see is whining from Power Gamers that are looking for a Tank to run around in. Druids have never been Tanks in any edition. Frankly put, anyone, and I mean ANYONE, who plays a spellcasting class and is not relying on their spell casting skills to the fullest, is not playing a Druid correctly. Sure you can wild shape into a dino but have you tried the combo with casting SUMMON NATURES ALLY? So many people FORGET about this ability it might as well not be there. ONE Dino might not seem like a threat but summon a few more and numbers start talking. If your not casting Summon Natures Ally as a Druid, your not getting the full benefit of the class. I have seen players run very powerful druids at high levels, but they had to carefully consider their spells and how to best use them. Even if an Archetype takes away your spontaneous casting for Summon Natures Ally there's no reason NOT to have a few memorized per day. The druid may seem week when by itself, but once the druid has summoned a few helpers they can overwhelm opponents. There is more to a spellcasting class than Feats and Morphing into something. Consider your spells as well, as they play a vital role in the Druid class. If your not casting your spells you might as well just play a gimped warrior with bad weapons and armor.
One final thought edited in: Teamwork. Use it. Don't rely on just yourself to survive. You should have a group of other players working with you with their characters. If you want to talk feats, discuss it with them. As a group you may want to use the teamwork feats. Those feats can do a lot of damage if you use them efficiently.
Remember you are also a full caster. The fact that you arent as good as the melee classes as high levels is a good thing, its one of the positive changes pathfinder made over 3.5. If you want to be a frontliner who wild shapes instead of a caster who fights, you should consider multiclassing your druid OR using prestige classes like the 3.5 natures warrior, which enhances the combat abiltiies but doesnt advance casting as much. There has to be some kind of trade off or else druids would make everone else obselete.
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Front line Druids wish they had concentrated on spells through about 10. Even then they don't suck, they're just different; you really want to use air form and earth form to stay at range and blast with spells; even if those spells aren't enhanced they are still amazing.
The sauran may be 2 levels behind in elemental form, but @ 14th this translates perfectly. You'll miss your domain power if you took an animal, just be comforted in knowing how amazing he was in the low-and-mid levels.
Caster melees, particularly Druids, hold their own or are even superior to fighters in low and mid levels; but later can't keep up with the raw attack damage and "crit line" feats those concentrated guys have. Luckily you'll still be a full caster :).
You are correct in that at higher levels, the druid is not a great tank. I also found that to be an issue with my 3.5 druid. Many have said this already, but remember to use your spells.
When I played a 3.5 druid, I used summon natures ally in just about every combat. The battlefield FILLED with creatures and my combat turns took longer than average (this was when I started rolling damage at the same time as attack). Summon fast moving creatures and at the minimum they are providing flanking for the rogue and the tank. I loved summon wolf type creatures because they got the free trip every attack. If we were anywhere near water, I liked to summon alligators because they can grab an enemy and pull him into the water. He could NEVER hold his breath as long as the alligator could.
At level 14 (I think), we faced one battle where we learned that an army was coming to across the sea to attack us. My druid wild shaped into a seagull, flew out over the invading armies' 3 ships and summoned some huge water elementals. They sucked the ships to the bottom of the sea. End of battle. It was epic.
All that said, I have not played a druid in Pathfinder yet. I want to. But in the current campaign (Shackled City) a bard is just too useful.
-AaronT.
Don't druids have a whole load of buffs and other fun stuffs?
Wouldn't that help offset its squishiness in the same way a cleric can off set theirs in the same way.
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Sure, but at high levels Druids are better off just casting those spells in the first place. As a sauran Druid standard action summon out d4+2 advanced giant dire crocs and let them go to town with your animal companion, or blast every enemy, or make the battlefield a living hell. Lots of better high level actions then "bite".
The druid I'm currently playing is level 15. I was used to the D&D 3.5 druids, which were ridiculously OP, and absolutely could be tanks.
I believe that Pathfinder put druids in a very good and balanced spot. That being said, my GM, who isn't used to anyone playing a druid, has joked more than once about rule-zero nerfing druids.
If you're wanting a PF druid to be a better fighter than a fighter, then hang it up. You're playing the wrong class. What attracts me to the class is versatility. In WoW, my favorite class was the shaman, foloowed by the druid, all due to versatility.
In PF, my GM has seen me use the various elemental wild shape forms to either get out of jams, or to spam SNA spells from the air.
SNA spells are where the druid is going to crank out the most damage, but there are also pretty fair number of other decent-damage elemental spells as well.
You have pounce. While on paper theorycrafting compared to a fighter making a full attack you don't come out that good, when it comes down to what happens on the mat you'll do just fine. A fighter moving around looses half his damage. You won't.
Take dragonstyle even before power attack. For two feats you can almost guarantee full attacks every round (either charge pounce or 5 foot step full attack) and your bite does str +1/2 damage, which at high levels will add more strength than power attack.
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You have pounce. While on paper theorycrafting compared to a fighter making a full attack you don't come out that good, when it comes down to what happens on the mat you'll do just fine. A fighter moving around looses half his damage. You won't.
Take dragonstyle even before power attack. For two feats you can almost guarantee full attacks every round (either charge pounce or 5 foot step full attack) and your bite does str +1/2 damage, which at high levels will add more strength than power attack.
Dragon Style only applies to unarmed strikes initially. You need two more feats to apply it to a singular type of natural weapon. Rather unadvisable to a character who has more than two types of naturals. The feat is good due to the saves and the movement abilities though.
Agree about the pounce, though it is unfortunate that one must rely on pounce forms for sustained damage. Though I guess a trick type of wildshape(elementals, snakes, etc) have their specific uses even if you are into optimization.
Augment summoning is your friend.
Also at higher levels being able to quick wildshape into a hawk(swift), fly over next to the enemy wizard(move), and wildshape back into a 15ft reach dino with grab(standard) is pretty awesome.
The giant mask things from the APG gives some nice wildshape options as well.
Strong Jaw + Vital Strike Line + Ankylosaurus can be pretty crazy.
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If you're going the grapple route, then the Powerful Shape Feat is probably worth it, once you can hit huge-sized animals (huge to gargantuan grants an extra +2 special size bonus to CMB and CMD) - a Saurian Shaman wild shaping into a dinosaur or reptile can hit huge at level 6. If you take a form with the Grab or Trample special attacks, then all the better. With the Powerful Shape Feat wild shaping into a parasaurolophus, for example, lets you overrun anything of huge size or smaller for (2d6 + 1½x Strength bonus) damage just by moving over them - although watch out for all the AoO you may end up taking if they decide not to try getting out of your way. If you can wild shape into a huge constrictor snake, then your grab and constrict will be very nice indeed.
Strong Jaw + Vital Strike Line + Ankylosaurus can be pretty crazy
This should make a great animal companion. The Stun power seems pretty great. I don't think you'd get that from wildshape though, so the stegosaurus, which gets a free trip attempt, might be better for the Druid himself.
Learn the power of animal style kung-fu! Multiclass into Monk (even just a single level). Take Feral Combat Training (Tail or Bite) and Improved Natural Attack with the same weapon. Memorize Strong Jaw, and soon you'll be flurrying for 36d6 plus a free trip or grapple, and you'll have the prereqs for Greater Grapple if you want it.
If you want to hit a lot cast GMW on that single natural weapon and try to flank, trip, etc, maybe even put a menacing amulet of might fists on your animal companion to boost your flanking bonus to +4.