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@Abraham True it may make some stuff worse but If I did this in my group it would have no effect. I said I could see the argument for spell like ability not that I feel they need a nerf.

@OP what supernatural abilities were being used in your former group? why was this change implemented.

As for the thread title In my group An air elemental form was hard for most of the monsters to hit/damage. It was a spell caster.

As to your REAL question I do like the Allosaurus the raptor is ok too. just remember to have fun.

To be honest I can kinda see bombs as a spell like ability but that is neither here nor there. How does it turning into a SP actually hurt most of the characters? I probably would never make this change but for the most part this wouldn't effect you at all.

@are I would say that Divine grace is similar to resistance and for diamond body perma nuetralize poison. Yes I am stretching.

As for Secanes remarks I wouldn't leave the group and see how this changes things. Maybe after a session the GM will realize he doesn't like the change. If I make a mistake on a house rule, I may reverse it after a session or 2.

why not ranger 1 barbX

I like the idea of it

I agree that overpowered in a practical sense is based on the rest of the group. I mean assuming the GM said ok how may people would play a ragelancepounce build?

But when comparing things on paper overpowered is being above what the majority does. IE haste is an overpowered 3rd level spell. Some people feel that the summoner is OP at low levels because the eidion is almost as good as a fighter if not better except that thee summoner still gets a turn.

ah sorry I remembered seeing the table and thought it was a close port from the 3.5 dmg

I would like to see more prestige classes, or more alternate classes rather then arch types.
@CrackedOzy isn't there a a random treasure generator in the game masters guide?

@kikidmonkey the OP suggested that the rouge should get full BAB. By proxy the ninja would get the bump as well in my opinion which is not needed.

Some other thoughts I have about these threads about adding stuff to a class doesn't work. It may make a class better and most likely won't break the game. giving rouges full BAB does not help because paizo isn't going to release an erata saying sorry we feel the rouge should now have full BAB. Paizo could add different talents or alt class abilities that do something similar for the case of rouges. I like having the discussion but no class alt classes have had the BAB changed. And I have trouble seeing paizo add BAB to a class I could see them subtracting it for something cool ex(a cleric with low BAB d6 HD and something similar to a "bloodline" in the "Supreme magic").

@kikidmonkey imagine a ninja with full BAB as the OP is suggesting

@OP why not just give the ninja trapfinding they are what many would call a "fixed rouge"

I feel that dark vision should be a rouge talent, and an improved version should be a advanced rouge talent. I also feel that there should be an advanced rouge talent that allows a character crit with sneak attack. I would argue about the paladin but it might bring the thread off topic. I feel the ninja would be ridiculous with full BAB, that a fighter would get marginalized. I like the rouge. and usually "GM fixes" can do a lot in a game but may not break it if the players are not trying to.

I think giving the class full BAB is bad because then marshal classes may want a dip without a major penalty (which wouldn't really be helping the rouge). If I were to give rouge full BAB I would give them full +1 AB at 4 and every 4 there after.

@cheapy there is no other class (barring ninja which i think of as a rouge and that with full BAB may have problems) that gets any ability similar to the rouge. I think the d6 sneak attack should scale better then linearly. I would dislike having to make a ranger bard to get the skill monkey class.

I believe the rouge is necesary I dont believe either the ranger or the bard make better stealth assassins(not the prestige class). If you want dark vision there is goggles, a class shadow dancer, or the half orc(dwarf works as well but the move speed loss hurts).

There may be other ways you can do it but the class is designed to be a a shady guy. With full BAB you could build the rouge as a class that doesn't even use its dex.

@cheapy then why not get rid of the paliden as well because it is much more of a personality then a rouge. Why not just force the person to take levels in both a fighter and a cleric.

I like the rouge. I like the idea that you know where to hit to deal extra damage if the opponent is unaware. I like the defensive abilities that they get. To me they are a class that is a jack of all trades and a master of the night.

@leo I was commenting that a swash buckler could be made as close to a fighter as is possibloe with a rouge with full BAB and would have the marshal weapon proficiency that a fighter would.

I would rather play a ninja or a scout with full BAB. A half elf with ancestral arms would have the same number of bonus combat feats at level 13, assuming that the rouge wanted weapon focus, and the fighter took the Gweapon focus and weapon specs. Wfoc at 2 combat trick at 6 and feat at 10 with advanced talent. now after 12 the rouge would not get any more feats.

I could give the fighters in my group a class ability at level 5 that would give them +100 to the first attack in a round. It would not increase there damage output by much after the buffs the rest of the party gives them(there chance to hit in my group is about 90% on the first attack). This is a cooperative game where people should play what they want to play and nothing more. I feel that giving the rouge full BAB is not a good way to balance the class but it shouldn't impact the game unless your group has a lot of min maxers.

I disagree because of the tower shield specialist I think that the armor training works with the shield. It seems implied that the shield counts when you read the armor training. armor master add using a shield in the text so I would think that armor training would apply to shields

@danmonster how do they do less damage with then a fighter with sneak attack turned on give me the fighter build and I could make a swashbuckler that does almost the same thing per round and deal more with sneak attack. the only difference in damage would be 2 at level 4 1 at 5 1 ab at 5 and then 1 of both ab and dmg at 9 and then 2 at 12 then 1 ab and dmg at 13. so a total of 7 damage and 3 ab. the rouge at 13 would get 7d6 sneak attack. As for total combat feats ( I am using a swash buckler so I don't have to blow a feat on weapon prof) the rouge gets 1 more combat feat If the fighter gets the weapon specs and greater weapon focus. so my math might be off but 3 ab should not give the fighter an extra 10 damage on the rouge when the rouge would deal 17.5(2.5 *7) more dmg on average per hit with sneak attack.

If we drop the swash buckler the rouge is down 1 feat. because it loses 1 combat trick and 1 for weapon proficiency.

@kikidmonkey rouges can find traps better than any other class rouges get more skill points then bards 2 extra. and the only skills they lose out to the bard on is the knowledge, spell craft. They are the only core class with disable device as a class skill.

I feel that I would be more likely to dip a rouge for 2 levels then play one. If I were a fighter I might take 2 levels of rouge to get a lot more class skills and more skill points and I wouldn't lose the extra feat also it would give evasion and a decent boost to reflex save as well as an extra 1d6 damage while flanking.

would it work Yes. would it be too much of a power boost probably but classes don't need to be balanced in a cooperative setting. Since in pathfinder the hitdice and BAB is related it would also probably give them more hp. I see rouges as the class that does it all 8+int skill points finds and disables traps well. I feel that most people feel rouges are under powered is because they only look at combat. They can do very well if they flank with a fighter/ranger ect. The rouges with full base attack bonus would be very similar to fighters without armor training and weapon training. since they get a rouge talent 1ce per 2 lvls some of which can be combat feats and as a swashbuckler you can get 2 combat feats weapon focus and weapon finess as rouge powers then at lvl 10 they could get any feat.

As a dm saying that you are invoking rule zero is a bad idea after the world and session has started. If you can justify it what you are invoking rule zero on that is a different story. To the player it might have sounded like " I am special so what I say goes". I have had players argue with me on rule zero but they usually accept it after I explain why I want something that way and If they wish to change what they were doing I let them

Tell me sylvanite hypothetically we were statrting at 9 would you still go human? I guess I always value the fluff more then the feat. and If he wants to be a caster and he will only be 2 levels down from a caster also he can play 1-5 as a wizard if you are an elf.

Wait arcane strike add damage to a magic weapon?? I have been reading this feat wrong and apologize. I still like the extra spells and skill points form the int boost. As for Many shot in my earlier build I thought the BAB requirment was 8 not 6. I would give up improved initiative in my build for deadly aim and give up deadly aim for Arcane strike.

I think we have to agree to disagree on the race Sylvanite.

No using an immediate action on your turn is the same as using a swift action and counts as your swift action for that turn. from prd

also bull rush is not giving them a 5 foot step so...
The answer is NO twice there for NO

But then the group can always go for a nice change of pace going form demon slaying to getting ambushed by a giant squirrel while they sleep and having the Two-Handed Fighter use his blunderbust to try and kill it while the rest of the party yell at him that they are trying to sleep or who gets the pelt once the thing is dead. I believe that groups need a random encounter every once in a while. But the thing about the encounter is it should be fun.

the spell is useless. if you want to pick these spells up as a wizard it will cost you a small amount of gold. over time this may add up but it is definitely worth getting the hp or the skill(my personal preference)

Well its important to have encounter not plot related. It is called random encounters. If the party going through the entire dungeon the should gain more loot and possibly more xp. Most player I personally play with are greedy people so they want more money.

@kale702 http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/dragonDisciple.htm
the dragon disciple in 3.5 got bonus spells per level not bonus spell levels If you get 1 extra spell per day and don't gain any spell casting ability the class isn't really an option for sorcerers. that is what I meant. the class was primarily used as MeleeClassX/sorc1/DD10

Since I don't feel like making a new thread when was it errataed?

I for optimization purposes still suggest an elf if you . you get +2 to BOTH of your relevant stats. and allows you to cast level 9 spells without the use of magic items.

As for arcane strike I seem to play in a slightly higher magic level then by level 11 (with the trait 13 without the trait) I usually have a +3 bow. so I don't see the feat as useful.

I am on the fence about the boots of haste but he is a caster so maybe the rest of the party wants haste? that all depends on group dynamics. And I was stretching on improved init then get manyshot at level 9.

The focus of pf is on the base classes. The dragon disciple is an option for a sorcerer it wasn't in 3.5 it get a lot of the spell casting and has some cute buffs. It isn't what you want though if you like being a full caster. I really want to see some archtypes for the sorcerer. and I don't mean bloodlines but something with diminished spell casting

Peter Stewart wrote:

For those curious, in my Saturday game we bumped the sorcerer up a level on his spells per day/spells known chart, so he gains spell levels at the same level as the wizard, and haven't seen any problems in a party that includes one of each.

14th level at the moment.

YYMV though.

I know this is not the same but to me this seems similar. I do believe that giving a fighter +2 ab at level 3, 9, 15 would not break the class it may not even marginalize the other classes but it would change the power levels of the class. In a more RP setting the classes do not need to be balanced. If the gm wants more people to play a sorc then it is fine. It wont munchkinize the class. It may really help those who do min max it.

@wraithstrike I wish I had a dm who would let me metamagic my spells for no extra cast time. I love silent and still while greater invisible. no idea where you are. and you would still get to move :-)

Um sylvanite you need to be at least 1/2 elf for AA I would probably do an elven wizard 1-5 fighter? palidin? ranger? barbarian? 6 EK 7-16 AA 17-20
as for feats
1 scribe scroll(free), pbs
3 percise shot
5 craft wondrous item, weapon focus
6 deadly aim
7 rapid shot, imp init (deadly aim if not a fighter
9 weapon spec if fighter(deadly aim if not)
11 weapon spec if not fighter, imp crit, many shot(if fighter)
13 improvesd initiative? point blank master?
15 imp percise and g weapon focus
17 far shot? shot on the run?

Edit @Sylvanite why would you use boot of haste you just can cast haste

@Melissa what feats require a caster to be able to cast spells of a certain level? other then the feat that gives an extra spell known. I know caster level is usually the relevant prereq for feats.

@Nemitri but what would happen if at the even levels the barbarian got one more "attack" per day. I also think it would be fun to play a class that got 2 bab per 2 levels. fun but annoying

I feel that the sorcs don't need a power boost and shouldn't get one that big without nerfing the bloodlines. +con is good, +dc is great, free reach is fun, extra natural armor helps you survive, free energy resistance. vs what a bonus to a stat that doesn't stack with magic items. a extra 1/2 level rounds on summon monster most fights don't last long enough to make this worth it or the summon spell sucks. Forewarned is good. a little extra damage that doesn't get multiplied on empower. free greater invis is fun. Necromancy blind sight is decent and universalist really does make the sorcerers have 2 more spells per day per spell level in the endl.

unless you are going human for flavor wise an elf would be more advisable. The +2 int and dex is better. a 14 con isn't terrible. the arcane archer is the best way to finish off the character (if you ever get to hit 20). because thewn you get a free element to your arrows and you get imbune arrow(the ability that makes the class worth it). you would only lose one lvl of spell progession compared to wizard and greater weapon spec compared to fighter. this build would have the spells of a level 17 wizard. If you are not doing pfs you could have a caster level of 19 with a trait.
Edit you also get free long bow proficiency for being an elf

sorry I guess I am used to the house rule a gm I had used and thought it was a rule. spellcraft was used in place of concentration. I am sorry
Edit: Post deleted

@wraithstrike If he has magic vestment then magical fullplate isn't the way to go

make sure to get reach spell though. best meta magic feat for a touch based caster.

Well I tried to make my point to the OP and You probably still dissagree with me I did like kyrt-ryder's suggestions but only 1 and 3 a single cast + chr mod of the bloodline spell probably wouldn't be a huge buff. I think this would make the sorcerer better. I think this would make it better then the wizard. I feel that the classes are balanced. the way they are.

this is a hypothetical example it is apples and oranges that being said If I gave every fighter an extra +1 AB every 2 levels it wouldn't make fighters the end all class but it would make them better than there counterparts. I am not saying that this is the same power level as increasing the progression. <-- It is a major buff to the class but It may not persuade people to choose sorc because lets face it. Putting on your robe and sorcerer hat just isn't as fun as putting on your robe and wizard hat sometimes. The increased progression does not make the class Broken. But the class doesn't need it.

Um I know this may not be in the normal flavor of the warlock but why not make a pact with an angel. how about celestial bloodline as an option for warlocks.

why would every wizard NPC have a bag of holding or a handy haversack. Bags were not water tight as cloth isn't so the books in a bag got water damaged every so often with that gm. I was also thinking you meant like a spell that creates an ED space. that is what I thought you meant. my point I was trying to make is the book has a down side.

lets say for example that I used secret chest. and you may find the replica of the chest or maybe not. I was thinking of non magic item ways to use extra dimensional spaces that you couldn't get at. I was talking about the enemy spell casters you had slain/subdued/defeated. I apologize for my wording being unclear.

I do NOT feel that sorcerers are better than wizards just that they are close to equal. I feel that with this buff that the op was suggesting that they would be better than wizards. this is not to say that you cant make a better wizard still or a bad sorcerer. I have seen both.

I like human sorcs better than wizards. it is my personal preference. But I think most experienced players tend to gravitate toward wizards. I do not think it is because they are better. Its just as a wizard you get to use more obscure spells, that reasoning is why I like the human sorc. lots of obscure spells to use and they are always available.

EDIT I was giving a small amount of spells in that example to show what my traveling book was like after I took spell mastery.

no, the cost of the spellbook might not be that much but that's not many spells either and certainly not utility ones. multiply that number by 2 or 3 and you got yourself a decent spell book that beats the sorcerers spells known

If they store it in an extra dimensional space unless it is a bag of holding you cant get it meaning no treasure and I can't find the rules about burning a spellbook. secret chest does work but it is a 5th level spell and costs 5k so that is 1 of your 5th level spells per day to get around it. Best use of a spell i had in that campaign.

for 2 of each spell levels 1 to 4 it cost 600 gold to replace the book that is just in the components. then another 300 gold to copy the spells if your gm lets you borrow someone else's spell book for half price and not buy scrolls. you could have 2 copies of your spell books that is what I would do but it still cost me a boat load of money. I would lose about 1k gold per 2-3 encounters for materials to redo the spell book. so I started getting spell mastery and then you start losing your bonus feats and the sorcerer starts looking better and better.

@mplindustries I guess I just had mean gms that had all of the spellbooks on the wizards be virtually useless/ not there because they left it at home or I accidentally burned it up. It still cost money to write the spell in your spell book. and As a wizard it is #$%&ing expensive to buy a new spell book if your gets destroyed somehow maybe by falling in water or catching on fire due to an opponents fireball. now you can avoid that by leaving your book at home but the you cant prepare spells on the fly. or by spending 12.5k or 6k if you have item creation feats. but then if it still gets burned then your out even more gold.

I see both classes having the same amount of versatility but very different kinds. If I can have my spell of a lower level for an hp I see the sorc having a tiny bit more versatility.

and for you golem example what are the odds that the wizard would have prepared that spell? does he go guys I need 1 minute without distractions so I can prepare this spell? no he cries that he didn't prepare the spell.

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It is a pity that that archtype cant flurry lances

yes it is supposed to be fluff IMO.

A variant of a sorc my friend made in 3.5 is that the sorc uses a spell book. they get 1 less spell per spell level to be cast. and they prepare all of there spells known at the beginning of the day. Did I think this was balanced no. but you all might. Another question I have for you is in 3.5 were the wizard and sorcerer balanced? Are the bloodlines better then what the wizard got. and who cares about the familiar except for flavor wise.

ya I haven't looked to much in the ultimate magic. as it is the book I don't own. sure I give up wizards and sorcerers both have their place. heres my question to all of you is the sorcerer bloodline powers worth the slower progression. I would say yes. Is not having a spellbook worth being able to cast spontaneously I would say yes. Is two more spell per day/ spell level worth it I would finally say yes once again. So We have lost a feat. and I would also say the arcana is equal to the school abilities. The sorcerer might be down a little but not much. The wizard has a higher item cost associated with the class. So it may be better but not enough to justify normal spell progression.

what feat hogarth?

blessed book still can be destroyed. ya a pearl of power is nice but they start getting expensive after level 2. now I will give you they are useful but that is adding more money that a wizard needs. to make a character with all this money you are spending the sorcerer has the money for the scrolls to get similar utility. I felt that without the alt class of a human that I cant make an argument on why sorcerers are better other than spontaneous meta magic which is balanced by normal casting time. I see the human making the 2 classes a wash. and I as a gm allow most favored class variants to apply to any race that list that class.

I always liked swinging with my great sword on the eidion while pouncing. I know this wasn't the best but I always imagined it as a thrust/swing then kind of a slashing with his claws and bashing with his tail and one last bite to finish him off. Now DO I think this should be done while on a horse? NO do I think that wildshaping into a squirrel should allow you to cast spells with a feat? thats one cool feat. so why shouldn't a feat make this possible? because its not magic? because it is not balanced? or because its not physically possible? and then what is a pounce? I always thought of it with a jump, but yet no acrobatics check is needed so maybe a pounce is just a style that allows you to use your momentum to attack faster. if this is the case then why not use a horses momentum? I hope I brought up some interesting questions

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