I just rejected another entry so far this year that is over the word count. (that's the second I have done and I think the third total this year).
Seriously, people, how is anyone still making this mistake?
AUTO-REJECT
Didn't even read it. Waste of time, waste of digital storage space.
Well, it is still early in the competition. I am sure that it will be the last.......
Especially since you have re-iterated the penalty!
Developer
,
Dedicated Voter Season 6, Marathon Voter Season 7, Star Voter Season 8
|
Sadly, the people who don't read the rules are also likely the same people who don't read the forums. I would bet that it's not the last submission over word count. :-/ Here's hoping you don't get too many more, though!
True, I just tried to keep him motivated :-)
Luckily, he hasn't had a joke item yet, you know how he get's when he lies eyes on one of those.....
Full on demonic rage!
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
,
Star Voter Season 6, Star Voter Season 7, Star Voter Season 8, Star Voter Season 9
aka JoelF847
|
Clark, I'm curious (in a watching a train wreck kinda way) are these entries that are just a few words over, and potentially were within the word count on some word processor in the world, or are they significantly over the word count, say 400 words or more?
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Significantly over 300.
That's all you need to know, citizen. Now, move along. Move along. ;-)
We're talking 30+ words over. And that's not counting the item name, which wasn't included in the body of the submission.
I even took out some weird formatting that could add a false amount to the word count... it's still over by more than 20. :/
Well, with hundreds of entries per year you're bound to get a few. I don't know how many have been submitted, or how many more will be over the word count, but statistically speaking I'd hope that the entries are good overall.
If not, my hopes of getting in have risen significantly. :p
How odd. And here I hadn't even started my misinformation campaign to eliminate the competition.
But seriously, folks: Read the rules, be careful, don't make any mistake. You've got plenty of time before the Jan. 30-th deadline, so spend the effort to get your entry just right.
Most importantly, in order to preserve the anonymity of submissions, it is crucial to DELETE YOUR REAL NAME FROM YOUR PAIZO SITE ACCOUNT.
Thank you for your cooperation.
We're talking 30+ words over. And that's not counting the item name, which wasn't included in the body of the submission.
The most recent one was over twice that amount. So, yeah. Sad face. :-(
Dedicated Voter Season 6, Star Voter Season 7, Star Voter Season 8, Dedicated Voter Season 9
|
That's a shame, but on the bright side, each over-word count Auto-Reject is one less submission to compete with >:-)
Seriously though, I'm sure the entrants will learn this lesson for next year's competition.
I'm not sure all of them do. I wonder sometimes if they just see they didn't make it and never come back to ask for a critique or find out why. Maybe that's why we keep getting entries year after year that go over the word limit? That...or, we just keep getting new people attracted to the competition who don't bother to read and follow the rules...
|
Dedicated Voter Season 6, Star Voter Season 7, Star Voter Season 8, Dedicated Voter Season 9
|
There is a school of thought among folks who have never submitted work professionally that word-count doesn't matter as much as their creativity. Unfortunately they don't consider that creativity can't make more page space appear.
Honestly, the important thing is that it culls the serious entrants from the wannabes. Serious entrants should pay attention to the messageboard and build a presence here early. This is where the voting public lives.
On top of which this is a job interview too, and a good interviewee researches a prospective of employer.
Maybe there should be an auto "flag" page for people who submit over word count entries. Something like "Hey. Can't you count?" Might turn on some otherwise unlit light bulbs.
|
Chief Technical Officer
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Maybe there should be an auto "flag" page for people who submit over word count entries. Something like "Hey. Can't you count?" Might turn on some otherwise unlit light bulbs.
I actually appreciate that the word count issue helps eliminate people who either can't read the rules or don't choose to follow them. We don't need either of those types working with us as freelancers, after all.
In the first couple of years, we didn't even *have* a word counter on the submission tool—the main reason we created one was so that the judges didn't have to run the word counts themselves after they'd come up with a pool of potential candidates.
Back then, being over word count was one of the last things that would get you eliminated; now it's the first. And I'm ok with that.
Spoiler:...in order to preserve the anonymity of submissions, it is crucial to DELETE YOUR REAL NAME FROM YOUR PAIZO SITE ACCOUNT.
Good advice, but not possible for everyone, due to the lock in of the default posting alias after 10 posts. I'm posting under my real name for example. Not that I'm creative enough to compete, so it's an academic point for me, but maybe not for someone else.
|
Senior Software Developer
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
...in order to preserve the anonymity of submissions, it is crucial to DELETE YOUR REAL NAME FROM YOUR PAIZO SITE ACCOUNT.
I know you're making a funny here, but I want to be completely and precisely clear about this: This is 100% not true. Judges cannot see who created a round 1 entry at all. It is possible for a couple people at Paizo (basically, me and Ross) to see the account attached to an entry, but it involves jumping through multiple, annoying hoops every time we do it. (Which is very, very rarely. Like, only with the final 32 rarely.).
RPG Superstar entries are as anonymous as we say they are.
I don't know about this too well. What IS the word limit?
Since I tend to write overly long stuff if I feel that it is needed.
300 words or less.
Mine is well under that.
|
Senior Software Developer
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
According to the official rules, "The entry must be no more than 300 words and must include all of the proper mechanics and flavor (see pages 496-532 of the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook for examples). Entries must be written in the English language, using correct spelling and grammar."
300 words for a magic item?
That doesn't sound too hard to pull off.
|
Senior Software Developer
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
My theory is, a very low percentage of top 32 items contain more than 290 words. Having over 290 words is a strong indication you are trying to use up your wordcount rather than use the exact number of words you need for your item.
I am too lazy to check this theory.
In the first couple of years, we didn't even *have* a word counter on the submission tool—the main reason we created one was so that the judges didn't have to run the word counts themselves after they'd come up with a pool of potential candidates.
And by "judges" he means me. The word count used to be me cutting and pasting the submission into Word and using that word count, which is why initially we allowed some slop in word count as different programs counted slightly differently. That was a HUGE task, as you can imagine. So I greatly appreciated Vic and Gary making a word count tool. :)
|
Senior Software Developer
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Actually Ross built the word count thingie. I left a lot of junk laying around after the first couple RPG Superstars and Ross (after having made top 32, and then getting hired at Paizo, and yeah, making top 32 helps, even when it's a completely non-editorial-type position) cleaned up a LOT of code related to this contest.
(Any bugs in this round are mine.)
I don't know about this too well. What IS the word limit?
Icyshadow: your question implies that this thread is directed at you.
Not specifically because of wordcount issues, but because it sounds like you haven't read the contest rules yet. So Clark opened this gentle little thread to make the following statement: if you don't read the rules, you're going to miss something big. That's the nature of a big, respected, worthwhile contest - it's not that it's impossible to wander in and hit a home run, but it's pretty unlikely, and there's a hundred and one simple mistakes and pitfalls that some people are taking the trouble to avoid.
If you're interested in participating, it's important to understand that you will need to do your research. You'll need to read the contest rules and understand them thoroughly; you'll want to go through Sean's "Avoid These Auto-Reject Categories"; you'll want to look at previous Top 32 rounds and see what the judges liked there and what they're actually looking for.
I'm not saying this to be discouraging - almost the opposite. Simply by reading a bit about the contest, you can set yourself above a huge percentage of the entrants who didn't make that initial effort. You can immunize yourself against trivial blunders :)
And please do. Poor Clark's got another three weeks of this...
I read the rules last year, but never bothered entering.
Anyway, thanks for the tips. Pretty sure this will help others around here.
RPG Superstar 2013 Top 4, RPG Superstar 2011 Top 16
,
Dedicated Voter Season 6, Star Voter Season 7
aka primemover003
|
My theory is, a very low percentage of top 32 items contain more than 290 words. Having over 290 words is a strong indication you are trying to use up your wordcount rather than use the exact number of words you need for your item.
I am too lazy to check this theory.
Last year I ran very close to the word count quite often... this is especially true if your item has a few different mechanics or abilities.
--Vrocknrolla
Not the least bit surprised. You get the same thing just about anywhere. Try hiring for an on-site technician who needs to have network experience, and you'll get someone who doesn't even know what an 'RJ45' is. Honestly, I don't think it matters if they ignore the requirements or simply think they're special enough that the requirements don't apply, but I find that those people tend to have personalities I just cannot stand.
Simplicity and Word Count are not mutually exclusive.
So far I've made 3 different practice item designs for this contest, and all ended up in 250-300 words. In my case, I came up with what I think are simple and interesting ideas that could be presented in 100-150 words, but as they involve some complicated rules or may be prone to munchkinism, I preffer to use the remaining wordcount to clarify the use of the item as much as possible.
For example, if I submit an item that says: "3 times per day you can transform into a fire dragon", I'll need to clarify a lot of things: Who or what is a fire dragon? Is this a polymorph effect? Is this based on form of the dragon? Is this something completely different? Does your equipment catch on fire in a fire dragon form? The more you clarify and try to repair the broken parts of your item, the more words you will use.
Of course, the more powers you add to an item the more words you'll use too, but adding a lot of powers doesn't make an item bad. Sometimes, lots of cool effects are needed for the item to make sense. In the example above, the fire dragon form lets your fly? Breath fire? Damages your enemies every time they hit you? Makes you vulnerable to cold damage? All those things seam suitable for the item, but require more words.
As long as it doesn't go over the 300 limit, all items should be treated equally. Maybe an item could be summarized in less words, but the reverse could be said for low word count items: it's not unusual for them to fall short in clarifications and explanations.
|
Dedicated Voter Season 6
|
Simplicity and Word Count are not mutually exclusive.
So far I've made 3 different practice item designs for this contest, and all ended up in 250-300 words. In my case, I came up with what I think are simple and interesting ideas that could be presented in 100-150 words, but as they involve some complicated rules or may be prone to munchkinism, I preffer to use the remaining wordcount to clarify the use of the item as much as possible.
For example, if I submit an item that says: "3 times per day you can transform into a fire dragon", I'll need to clarify a lot of things: Who or what is a fire dragon? Is this a polymorph effect? Is this based on form of the dragon? Is this something completely different? Does your equipment catch on fire in a fire dragon form? The more you clarify and try to repair the broken parts of your item, the more words you will use.
Of course, the more powers you add to an item the more words you'll use too, but adding a lot of powers doesn't make an item bad. Sometimes, lots of cool effects are needed for the item to make sense. In the example above, the fire dragon form lets your fly? Breath fire? Damages your enemies every time they hit you? Makes you vulnerable to cold damage? All those things seam suitable for the item, but require more words.
As long as it doesn't go over the 300 limit, all items should be treated equally. Maybe an item could be summarized in less words, but the reverse could be said for low word count items: it's not unusual for them to fall short in clarifications and explanations.
I’m not saying that you did this, because I haven’t seen your item. It may have been worded very eloquently and may have been very exciting.
But in general, I call the clarification thing the “and then” syndrome. You start getting too many “and then’s” and instead of a really cool idea, you have a wall of “and then” to clarify.
So not saying you are wrong. Just putting up a cautionary warning that too much clarification will also bog your item down.
Spoiler:Simplicity and Word Count are not mutually exclusive.So far I've made 3 different practice item designs for this contest, and all ended up in 250-300 words. In my case, I came up with what I think are simple and interesting ideas that could be presented in 100-150 words, but as they involve some complicated rules or may be prone to munchkinism, I preffer to use the remaining wordcount to clarify the use of the item as much as possible.
For example, if I submit an item that says: "3 times per day you can transform into a fire dragon", I'll need to clarify a lot of things: Who or what is a fire dragon? Is this a polymorph effect? Is this based on form of the dragon? Is this something completely different? Does your equipment catch on fire in a fire dragon form? The more you clarify and try to repair the broken parts of your item, the more words you will use.
Of course, the more powers you add to an item the more words you'll use too, but adding a lot of powers doesn't make an item bad. Sometimes, lots of cool effects are needed for the item to make sense. In the example above, the fire dragon form lets your fly? Breath fire? Damages your enemies every time they hit you? Makes you vulnerable to cold damage? All those things seam suitable for the item, but require more words.
As long as it doesn't go over the 300 limit, all items should be treated equally. Maybe an item could be summarized in less words, but the reverse could be said for low word count items: it's not unusual for them to fall short in clarifications and explanations.
A good designer should be able to make those clarifications without using up an excessive amount of his word count. In the fire dragon example, explaining what happens to your gear, whether you can fly and breath fire, etc. can be answered simply by stating that it's a polymorph effect. And if it's not a polymorph effect, then why not? Is it really worth the word count to not make it such?
But in general, I call the clarification thing the “and then” syndrome. You start getting too many “and then’s” and instead of a really cool idea, you have a wall of “and then” to clarify.
So not saying you are wrong. Just putting up a cautionary warning that too much clarification...
Agreed. But in the other hand, clarification shows the judges that you have the ability to critically examine your own work and anticipate possible problems. Of course, clarification for the sake of augmenting your word count will probably play against you.
A good designer should be able to make those clarifications without using up an excessive amount of his word count.
I totally agree with your statement, but now I see that my example was not a good one.
I'll put it in this way: you may want to create an item that gives you some powers that are not fully developed in the rules. If the item you are creating is, for example, easily reduced to a Spell In A Can, you will have the advantage of reducing a lot of text into a single spell name. But, generally speaking, creating new and interesting effects for your wondrous item will have lots of interactions with other rules and may be not so easy to understand by other people. By showing that you understand those interactions and anticipate the problems people will find when using your design in their games, I think you'll showing more good qualities of a RPG Superstar.
Or they hear stories about Todd's infamous overword count and think 'it works for him...' :P
:P
I'll be the first to tell folks to keep to a word count, otherwise you don't get to write more regardless of how good your work might be. Word count and deadlines are crucial in this industry. Publishers would rather have someone good who hits those with no problem than a prima donna who while awesome turns things in late and overbudget, because that causes problems down the line with release dates and other projects.
But let me say it again to RPG Superstar entrants: No matter how good your work is, you have to follow word count restrictions or else you don't get repeat offers for work. Doesn't matter how awesome it might be, you still have to follow the rules. :)
|
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
,
Star Voter Season 6
|
*laugh* It was a backhanded compliment and hopefully taken in the humour intended.
If I went over word count* it would be "What is this crap?" If you go over it's "Oh gods, what part of the awesomeness to cut?"
*
Actually, this seems like an appropriate thread to ask this... are all of the words from the template (prerequisite spells, caster level, etc.) counted in the word count?
|
I used Yarny to write mine up, and it's word count was exactly the same as the preview word count when I submitted.
That said, my item was so bad it caused Clark to create a new thread to rant about it.....Only took about 7 hours from submission, from what I could tell. :D
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
|
Simplicity and Word Count are not mutually exclusive.
In most cases, they are exclusive.
Up to three times per day, the cloak can be commanded to transform it's wearer into a majestic red dragon (as per form of the dragon I except limited to red dragons)*.
Red dragons are defined**, form of the dragon is defined, you don't need to waste wordage explaining that. The more extraneous text you add, the more likely you are to introduce problems. If you do something that does something nearly identical to a spell/ feat/ monster special ability, then use that to your advantage since those rules are already there and people understand them.
.
* You should refer to the core book for exact wording on how to refer to spells, that was off the cuff.
** If you are seriously thinking of introducing a new creature in a magic item it's probably a really bad idea, creatures are complicated and you are far more likely to introduce problems than make something cool.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
But, generally speaking, creating new and interesting effects for your wondrous item will have lots of interactions with other rules and may be not so easy to understand by other people. By showing that you understand those interactions and anticipate the problems people will find when using your design in their games, I think you'll showing more good qualities of a RPG Superstar.
I agree. While brevity may be the soul of wit and using existing rules is obviously a good thing, when making an item that does something new it doesn't hurt to include how that item functions within or changes the existing rules. This doesn't mean adding a bunch of extra fluff and redundant information, but rather anticipating where confusion might arise and clarifying these points. Some items might require just a brief line of text to do this, others may require more. If this results in a "high" word count, so be it - better than having an item that seems broken.
After all, if the judges believe that 300 words is far too many to effectively describe and define a well-crafted wondrous item, one would think they would lower the word count.
After all, if the judges believe that 300 words is far too many to effectively describe and define a well-crafted wondrous item, one would think they would lower the word count.
Well, it was 200 words or less the first two years of the competition. And folks got by with that just fine. As in most things, people will take as much as you give them. ;-)
Well, it was 200 words or less the first two years of the competition. And folks got by with that just fine. As in most things, people will take as much as you give them. ;-)
Interesting. I'm new to the site and the competition, and didn't review the rules of years past when reviewing the items.
If I may ask, if 200 words was generating the types of submissions the judges were looking for, why the change?
I would wager because, in the change to pathfinder, a lot more formatting requirements were introduced.
Star Voter Season 6, Dedicated Voter Season 7, Star Voter Season 9
|
*laugh* It was a backhanded compliment and hopefully taken in the humour intended.
If I went over word count* it would be "What is this crap?" If you go over it's "Oh gods, what part of the awesomeness to cut?"
*** spoiler omitted **
I reread and reread mine, working to get the language right, my word count fluxuated between 282 to 299 as I played with a word here, asked if it made sense, reread til a felt I got it awesome (now I have that post turn in nervousness and questioning).
The year before I was in the 300's and had to cut it to 298.
But the existence of this thread makes me wonder some computer algorithm is adding 10-20 words. It is not rational. I have plenty to feed my paranoia.
Can I have Paizo pay for my medical care if I have a mental breakdown?
It's not unbelieveable, I'd always assumed a word count was an approximate value or guideline and 30 words falls within a perfectly reasonable 10% margin. It was only when reading through the rules in detail and scanning old forum posts that I realised it was an absolute hard cap and included everything.
I think this is rather counter-intuitive (it may not be in publishing, but how many entrants work in publishing?) and I suspect anyone who thinks this is just for fun, rather than a 'job interview', will skip the small print. If the submission tool could refuse to accept anything over 300 words then that would get the point across far more easily. There may be some good ideas going out with the bathwater.
Last year was the first time I entered the competition. I spent a great deal of time working on my scenario submission for the PFS open call, and a few hours working on this. Only after I entered the competition did I realise that it arguably has more potential than the scenario writing. I'm not sure everyone is on the same page with what Paizo are looking for here.
The word count on the submission tool matched MS Word by the way, so thanks for including that. I can't blame my word count for getting rejected now! :-)
|
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
,
Star Voter Season 6
|
I think this is rather counter-intuitive (it may not be in publishing, but how many entrants work in publishing?) and I suspect anyone who thinks this is just for fun, rather than a 'job interview', will skip the small print. If the submission tool could refuse to accept anything over 300 words then that would get the point across far more easily. There may be some good ideas going out with the bathwater.
Seriously, if you aren't reading what this is, and aren't following the rules... why are you wasting everyone's time?
Even with my first entry, I had no doubts what I was getting into. I just didn't think I'd make the top 32.*
*
I think this is rather counter-intuitive (it may not be in publishing, but how many entrants work in publishing?) and I suspect anyone who thinks this is just for fun, rather than a 'job interview', will skip the small print. If the submission tool could refuse to accept anything over 300 words then that would get the point across far more easily. There may be some good ideas going out with the bathwater.Seriously, if you aren't reading what this is, and aren't following the rules... why are you wasting everyone's time?
I tend to agree with this sentiment. The word count is another part of the contest.
No one holds your hand and tells you that you are going over the word limit when you are writing for a publisher. Plus, what Stormfriend speaks of here is the realm of drafts. That is things you overwrite purely because you expect them to be cut to ribbons. Here the judges want a final submitted copy, already cut, polished, and ready to be slapped into a book without any further work.